Trainee Trauma

[atco-matic]

there's a story about a ''near mid air collision'' which supposedly occurred the other day at swanwick centre on the teletext on BBC this morning, but theres nothing on their web page about it.

Seems a trainee made an arse of it and the mentor was unable to get the high quality state of the art training box to work to correct his mistake... trainee managed to correct it in time though.

[Expeditedescent]

Bit quick to jump on the old trainee there !

I heard that the trainee descended an aircraft after checking strips and radar. Unknown to him there was traffic directly underneath not co-ordinated in, with no strip, and had been relegated to a background track, and thus was invisible. Then the training box went u/s and it all got a bit close.

At least that's the story here at TC........anyone from the Great Level Capping centre care to comment?

[fly bhoy]

Don't know much else about it, but there's a link below to a newspaper which has a bit about it.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uknews/page.cfm?objectid=11969733&method=full&siteid=89488

[PEAWEE]

EXPEDITE you,ve got it just about right. Thats the same story i heard, its down to substandard equipment again.

[250 kts]

If it is a case that the training box failed then I for one will be refusing to train until such time that EVERY single training box has been checked and signed as serviceable by the Manager ATC OPS at LACC.

At least then he can come to the dock with me if the worst ever happens.:mad: :mad:

[BwatchGRUNT]

Background tracks - now there is a new one!! I'm sure them upstairs on the top floor will say this is the first they know about the problem. Let it be said it is HERE and it is a BIG problem that needs attention.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[eyeinthesky]

The news here is talking of 2 miles and quotes the minimum as 3. Usual inaccuracy by the media. I'm not aware of anywhere in UK airspace where we can use 3 miles at FL320, are you?

[Nogbad the Bad]

The BIG problem is that of "background tracks".....it always sends a shiver up my spine !!!

What a ridiculous system to have working in airspace that is as confined as is the case in the UK.

OK, so the mentor's override equipment was faulty - or didn't work as it should.....but that is not a design fault, however the utilisation of background tracks IS. To my mind, it's this that was the fundamental cause of this Airprox, and is as dangerous as showing SSR only !!

What a BL***Y system !!!!!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Sad ATCO]

250 kts:

Why all the demands to get other people to check these training boxes?

I'm sure that I can't be the only person who ALWAYS does a test transmission on his training box as soon as he sits down with a trainee. This is good practice and has identified a problem with the 'black box' to me on at least one occasion in the past. If it then doesn't work, you take it to the engineers who return it with a little 'servicable' label on it. That's their guarantee to us and them taking their share of responsibility.

Seems to me from this incident that the problem with inter-sector cordination is making itself apparent not only between LACC & LTCC but also now internally at Swanwick. Having also had personal experience of this sort of failure recently, I'd be more worried about that as you are less able to mitigate against it with simple checks.

Regards

Sad.

[250 kts]

I understand that it was tested during the handover and worked fine. Apparently there are also at least 2 other instances of them failing in the recent past.

Sad, if you are still at LATCC you may not be aware that these are a completely new type of box.

All i was trying to say was that I don't fancy being the only one in the dock should one of these things fail and cause a nasty. Remember whose licence is at risk and if the OJTI were to know that there was a potential problem with this equipment and continued to use it, then I don't think he'd have much of a leg to stand on.

[No 1]

atco-matic the trainee did not make an arse out of the situation he followed procedures to a 't'. The French hadn't bothed sending the estimate to LACC and therefore the trainee had no strips on the flight. Due to the range setting on the radar the second aircraft was not clearly visable and was a background track. Remember we were all trainees once!!!

[eyeinthesky]

Whilst the phrase 'trainee made an arse of it' may not be borne out in fact, the point surely is that a sequence of errors occurred and the equipment which should have broken that sequence failed to do its job. That is serious, and is what should be sorted, rather than pointing fingers.

We all know that most accidents are not caused by one single event, but a chain which links up. If any of the links are missing or are broken then the accident doesn't happen. If we are relying on the new equipment at Swanwick to break that chain and it is not doing so, then the travelling public should be alarmed!:eek: :eek:

[atco-matic]

sorry all (grovel grovel), i was only reporting what I had heard on the news!

[Direct HALIFAX]

Bit of paper has appeared from the union (not LACC Mgt) saying that the training boxes are not to be used for live r/t training.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Although the problem with the OJTI boxes needs to be addressed, and quickly, the MAIN point is that of the use of "background tracks"

THAT is what caused this Airprox.....and THAT is a dangerous system !!

[JAR_monkey]

Hey "BWatch" you wouldn't have been working the TDU about 18 months back would you?

[eyeinthesky]

Direct HALIFAX: This is typical of this company at the moment:mad: :mad: :

1) Computer failure due Irish Gap problem triggered by amendment to FPL.
Result: Bit of paper saying: 'Don't do this'

2) Problems in NAS caused by use of CC.
Result: Bit of paper saying: 'Don't do this'

3) Airprox (or loss of sep) partly caused by failure of training box.
Result: Bit of paper saying: 'Don't use training box'.

When will this company sort itself out and give us and the travelling public a system which is stable and able to do the job it is supposed to without these sticking plasters all over the place? Finger in the dyke (attractive as that may sound to some individuals:D ) only works in the stories.:rolleyes:

[ZIP250]

Any ATC system which permits traffic not to be displayed in a sector merely because the computer does not know about it is a BAD ATC system. At Swanwick the only traffic which is foreground is known traffic. Aircraft on the wrong SSR code will be background. Thus if the code is to be changed on entry into UK airspace it will remain background until the code is changed. Only the tactical controller will see the background track if the planner is working on foreground tracks only. Finally, the "Intruder Alert" system will only work with foreground tracks. Therefore the really dangerous intruder (in other words the one you don't know anything about) will not trigger the safety system.

Great isn't it:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Z

[BDiONU]

The mentor box 'problem' only became fully known when actual mentors started to use them for real. The 'fault' which caused the malfunction of the mentor box in the recent airprox was a lose wire, as happens often with headsets etc. given lots of use.

However it has given us (support staff) the ammunition to fire off an urgent Investment Proposal (NATS management speak for getting them to spend some money) to completely re-design and purchase replacement mentor boxes soonest.

BTW for those who find they don't like the background/foreground radar picture it is very simple to change the MMI, making background = foreground, so you can see EVERYTHING on your screen.

[canberra]

i thought trainees were fireproof and if theres any flak the screen gets it? at least thats what happens in the raf.

[Scott Voigt]

This begs the question, "why have a box for training.?" We have our override plug hardwired into the console... You plug into the monitor jack and you are not hot when the trainee is talking, however if they mess up, you key up and they go dead and you chat away... Sometimes it would be nice to have it wired to a hot wire in the seat too <BEG>....

regards

[radar707]

Scott, it's not a separate box, just an override socket, the mentor presses the transmit switch and it overrides the trainee (at least that's what we have at EGPF).
However, technology as it is, no matter how many test transmissions are made, it still fails.
i much preferred the old flick the switch system, that one never failed me.

[atco-matic]

Yes but you can't just ''flick the switch'' at swanwick because thanks to the marvellous step forward in ergonomic design the ''switch'' is located between the 2 sockets with headsets plugged in, both of which are underneath a metal flap, which you can't lift without moving the strip board because the strip board rests on top of it!!! How anyone (Management I mean) can possibly think that that is a safe way to train (presuming you've read the letter lying in the ops room) is totally beyond me.

[Big Nose1]

Take3 Call5, you cannot be serious.

"The mentor box 'problem' only became fully known when actual mentors started to use them for real."

Well no comment required.

"The 'fault' which caused the malfunction of the mentor box in the recent airprox was a lose wire, as happens often with headsets etc. given lots of use. "

So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic.

"However it has given us (support staff) the ammunition to fire off an urgent Investment Proposal (NATS management speak for getting them to spend some money) to completely re-design and purchase replacement mentor boxes soonest. "

Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter.

"BTW for those who find they don't like the background/foreground radar picture it is very simple to change the MMI, making background = foreground, so you can see EVERYTHING on your screen."

No you don`t say, so one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!

I refer you to eye in the sky`s post.
:mad: :mad:

[BDiONU]

Big Nose1:

Don't understand your response.

1. The mentor boxes were designed and made for LACC but until such time as actual mentors start using them for real how can you evaluate them fully (i.e. not in the cool and calm of a workshop)? Now its been determined that this design is NOT very good and we now have a very good case to argue.

2. "So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic."
??? I'm sure you've experienced lose wires in headsets before. Your response is rather facile, I don't believe you let your car sit in your garage all day because when you use it it wears it out and needs servicing etc.

3. "Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter."
Is it the operational staff who prepare and argue for Investment Proposals? No. What I said was this is ammunition to get the NATS management to spend the money. There are 100's of things the operational staff want changing (different things for different watches and people) but we're only given so much money.

4. "one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!"
Did I say that? I'm sure I said that you can make background = foreground if you want to see all the background tracks.

Anyway why are you 'having a go' at me? I'm trying to inform you how things are going and whats being done on the operational staff's behalf. I'm sorry that we have no magic wand to wave and 'fix' everything that is perceived to need it, but this is life. Also responses like yours do not motivate people to do the very best job they can on your behalf, in fact it reduces co-operation.

[eyeinthesky]

atco-matic: You forgot to mention that, even assuming we can quickly make the switch given the difficulties you outline, that will still be no good as we cannot reach the hand transmit switch because that is underneath the strip board which was not supposed to be there when the console was designed. We are told that to reposition the transmit switch away from the strip board is impossible/too difficult/too costly (take your pick which and I'm sure Take 3 will have something to say about it...).

That leaves only the foot transmit switch, and to get at that you have to shift the trainee out of the seat and sit down yourself without getting your cables tangled up while still maintaining the traffic picture and responding to calls. Meantime two aircraft are, as the press would have it, hurtling towards each other at 10 miles a minute with you unable to take effective preventative action.

However you dress it up as being inevitable because you can only test things properly in operational use rather than 'in the cool and calm of a workshop' I think most would agree that it is an unsatisfactory, not to say potentially dangerous, way of going about things.:eek: :(

Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system, but the things which are happening are just those things we were worried about. Long before NERC opened many members of the NTT and others raised serious worries and were told that there was no cause for concern as the testing was exhaustive and all possibilities had been anticipated. This is patently not the case, as recent events have shown. Even where faults were found, they were not fixed, with the result that a known problem with splitting from a workstation caused 178,000 minutes of delay when it happened again a few weeks back!!:rolleyes:

[BDiONU]

"We are told that to reposition the transmit switch away from the strip board is impossible/too difficult/too costly (take your pick which and I'm sure Take 3 will have something to say about it...). "

Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.

"Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system"

Not unwavering loyalty, just trying to communicate to anyone who wants to listen how things are and what your support staff are trying to do to get things working how you want them. I consider that we are part of a team, trying to achieve the same goals (namely moving traffic safely and expeditiously). The 'enemy' is NATS senior management who require us to jump through a whole set of hoops before authorising the funds to let us work on the operational difficulties you're experiencing.

More update for you on the font issue. We had hoped to demo the new, improved fonts in early July. However we've encountered licensing problems with the Verdana font. So until they're resolved we've had to delay the demo until late August.

[eyeinthesky]

Take 3: Thanks for your response.

QUOTE
Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.
UNQUOTE

Ahh, but there's the rub! There are no reliable mentor boxes at present, are there?

In addition, no consideration is given to those people who, like me, preferred at LATCC to use the hand PTT switch because I found it more comfortable. This option is now not available, and I wonder whether HSE considered the possible effects upon people's posture and possible subsequent back troubles through being constrained to a fairly narrow range of movement by the need to reach the foot switch whilst being able to see the screen properly (as if!!).

I do understand your point of view, but the fact remains that there are many features about NERC, some of which are only just crawling out of the woodwork (metaphor, since we all know wood is forbidden due fire risk or aesthetic reasons:) ) and which should have been sorted long ago rather than passing it all off as 'perfect'. If this had been the case, I suspect the cost involved would have been lower than retrofits, but that would have meant certain senior managers admitting they had signed for a specification which was unsatisfactory. That would mean taking responsibility for their actions and we all know that sloping shoulders abound on the third floor! (But if the rumour on another thread is true, sloping shoulders leading to capacious pockets seem also to be in evidence).

[Scott Voigt]

Eye in the Sky;

Send your techs over here to take a look at our over ride system. It works everytime with NO problems at all... I have yet to see one replaced in the new control room (about three years old now). We did have to replace some old ones in the old room, but that was just due to age...

regards

[vectorin' vixen]

Ok, trainee had an incident and mentor couldnt get box to work. Now all mentors are doing an r/t check every time they sit down - fine. However, as we all know headsets, phones and mentor boxes can fail whenever, just go, even when not long back from being serviced! So it seems to me that people can sit there and test all day, till their little hearts content, but unfortunately it just happens, end of story, yes at the wrong time admittedly, but just an unfortunate coincidence in this case. Heart goes out to trainee and mentor for grilling in papers etc,like to see the bloody journalists have a go at this job!

[Loki]

vectorin vixen:

Yup, I and every other atco in the world have had things fail on me , sometimes at the most inopportune moments (I learned about controlling and prayer moments!)

However, these pieces of sh*t have been failing regularly and eventually have contributed to an incident (allegedly). There`s the difference.

[ZIP250]

The guilty training boxes are now withdrawn and are sitting in the watch manager's office looking sorry for themselves.

We have an edict from RH saying that some trainees can continue OJTI without the boxes. It is at the mentor's discretion (just seen the buck). I remember several times in the past (one of them on the old CLN sector) when the mentor had to take control very quickly when the trainee did something completely out of character and unexpectedly. Remember boys and girls, people have failed boards.

IF YOU TRAIN AND HAVE AN INCIDENT WHICH YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED BY USE OF THE BOX THEN HAVE NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, YOU WILL GET BLAMED.

Z