Children have no place in the British Army.

[Hangarshuffle]

Must admit I found this an excellent article. And at times a compelling argument.
Children have no place in the British army | Mark Bostridge | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/22/children-british-army-recruit-16-year-olds)


But the reply immediately below it, by a chap using the alias of Tonester7 is possibly even better.
I have mixed feelings myself about people being allowed to join HMF below the age of 18. Snap decision - no. Because I'm older and more cynical to boot, probably.

[Hangarshuffle]

In fact there are some brilliant replies. Pruners in the Guardian? Well I do declare.

[Lonewolf_50]

Suggest you learn about David Hackworth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth).

Hackworth joined the U.S. Merchant Marine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine) at age 14, towards the end of World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), when teenagers routinely entered the armed services before their 18th birthday by lying about their age. After the war, he lied again to enlist in the United States Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army).
He was born the same year as my Aunt, and seems to have joined the Army in 1945 or 1946. Age 16. He ended up being very good a that whole Army thing.

Age is a number. Some in their late teens will adapt (had numerous sailors who enlisted at 17 with a waiver who served in my units) quite well to the military environment. And some won't. Heck, some who join as adults (21+) don't adapt.

[Out Of Trim]

HS

And a pacifist now I guess..

Glad I wasn't in the Navy, if many are like you! :yuk:

[NutLoose]

I joined the RAF at 16 though only a month before my 17th. (Attestation date) but was 17 when I entered. Do I think it would have made a difference in active service.. No, any regrets, yes, the period did not count towards pensionable service which is plainly wrong.

[ExRAFRadar]

the period did not count towards pensionable service which is plainly wrong

The old '2 years for the Queen' I think I was told.

Pity we did not have to pay our taxes for those 2 years.....

[O-P]

HS,

What would you rather have those unemployed 16 year olds do? If not the Forces, then I guess it's hanging around on St corners scarring the sh!t out of old ladies?

At least, in the Army, they are contained, taught some self discipline and might actually learn a trade that will help them in later life. Sitting outside the local co-op won't do that.

Nutty, I also was conned out off three pension years...w@nk system

[Davef68]

We have a curious attitude to age of majority in the UK- you can get married at 16, join the servces but not serve on operations. You used to be able to buy cigarettes at 16, but now it's 18. There is a campaign to reduce the voting age to 16 (Like in the Scottish referendum), but another to raise the driving agree to 18.

It's also affected by international factors - at one point, you could have nude photos taken at 16, but it was moved to 18 to fit in with America and rationalise child porn laws. So you can get married at/to 16, but if you publish a pic of you wife of that age, you are a sex offender (Several young people have been caught that way.)

I've nown plenty of young people who are mature adults at 16, yet also plenty who are still immature children at 18.

667Thebeast's neighbour says it best though:


I do not recognise at all the organisation Mark Bostridge describes. Nor would any other serviceman or woman. He is everything that those who serve would detest: a private school and Oxbridge posh boy who has absolutely no understanding of the lives of ordinary Britons or of the military, but feels his privilege and soft life entitles him to pontificate at length on those subjects. I doubt he has ever met a single underprivileged young person or spoken to anyone in the military.
You will never understand people like me, Mark, nor I people like you. I advise you stick to being an expert on Florence Nightingale.

[oldpax]

I was 15 years 11 months at joining up as a boy entrant and it did me no harm.

[NutLoose]

As someone brought it up, I'm against 16 year olds voting unless they are contributing taxes, then I agree with it, but I think it is fundamentally wrong to have people voting on who will be spending our monies for the next 5 years without contributing in and being part of that system.

[Davef68]

Nutlose, you could apply the same logic to over 18s as well - students etc or even those who earn below the tax limits.

[racedo]

It's a volunteer army.

If someone wishes to join then they within reason should be free to do so, keeping out of combat to 18 sounds reasonable but reason and a war don't go hand in hand.

Some will take to army life like Ducks to Water and others like Ducks to a Road that looks like water after a shower of rain.

Let each make their decision rather than nanny state.

[Army Mover]

I joined at 15; left 24 years later as a Warrant Officer. Certainly didn't do me, or my peers, any harm.:ok:

[jayteeto]

16 for me. If it had been 18, I would have joined my unemployed friends for 2 years, then joined up anyway!

[tmmorris]

The U.K. Armed Forces have an enviable history of taking 'difficult' kids and turning them into useful soldiers. I employ one now who made it to WO1 from the streets of Newcastle and joined at 16 - think of it as two years of reeducation followed by service from 18, and in fact if you restructured it like that I can't see who would complain.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I signed on in the RAF at 15 yrs and 9 months as a Boy Entrant. I was serving in Singapore at 17 years and 7 months. My 19th birthday was spent at Khormaksar. I stayed in until I was 40. I loved every minute of it. It depends on the individual. Some are up to it and some are not.

Aaron.

[t7a]

Slight thread drift. I seem to remember that some years back, someone started a case against the government to try and get our under 21 pension rights counted (probably a ooman rites case). Anyone know what happened (apart from the fact we never got the pension!)?

[Tinribs]

If you measure the services for fair treatment you run into minefield unless you relate that treatment to what was reasonable at the time

In past years women were denied many service advantages routinely available to men such as married quarters, duty travel for family and spouses to postings abroad and home to duty travel allowance.

Pension allocations were denied to men under 18 and officers under 21 though we paid tax and national insurance. We were denied state pensions attributable to our service because the RAF opted out of SERPS but few of us understood the implication and we were not allowed to make up the years as civilians who had missed payments were allowed to.

All this though it seems unfair but was normal at the time and we learned to live with it and must do so now because there is no recourse to remedy

You get some perspective when you recall that a young officer friend was dismissed the service by Court Martial for failing to attend a mess dinner

The best thing I ever did was to join the RAF in 1964, they treated me well on the whole the medical service was excellent and married quarters a fair deal at least in the early years. They prepared me well, for a second career in civil aviation allowing a free aircraft for my flight test instrument rating and a grant towards my licence costs. The second best was to leave in 1983.

[Wander00]

Friend of mine spent a tour defending the RAF at Employment Tribunals hearing claims by WRAF being forced to leave on pregnancy or marriage - must have been dispiriting knowing you were going to lose every time. RIP CC


Dismissed by sentence of CM for failing to attend a mess dinner - I am surprised - or was there "history"?

[Two's in]

Journalists like this have a single agenda and won't let the facts get in the way of their own perverted message. This twonk seems to believe that every Army recruit becomes a steely-eyed bringer of death, HALOing out of a C-130 to bring death and destruction to all they meet. Apart from the sheer percentage game of just how much the Army comprises "teeth" arm soldiers, every 16 year old will learn a useful skill or a trade (other then raping nuns and drowning orphans). They will learn self-discipline, team-work and most importantly, they soon learn that not everyone is a winner in life. During training the pathologically maladjusted and socially inept will be weeded out, and they will go on to become Guardian journalists.

[Genstabler]

a young officer friend was dismissed the service by Court Martial for failing to attend a mess dinner


That statement contains the factual accuracy normally only seen in the Daily Mail.

[Simplythebeast]

Joined the RAF as a brat at exactly 15 yrs and six months old. Didnt do me any harm and would do it again though only if the RAF was the RAF of 1970.

[Tankertrashnav]

Mark Bostridge would gain more respect from me if he wrote an article on what he really thought - this would be titled "There is no place for an army in Britain". It is quite obvious Bostridge thinks that soldiering is a disreputable profession (his remarks about the "chilling testimony to the militarisation of our youth" for example). How a member of a profession whose reputation is currently as low as it has ever been can presume to occupy the moral high ground in these matters is simply incredible.

[Rosevidney1]

The Grauniad just gets worse, and it started at a dismal rating. It is regarded as an authoritative newspaper only by the hard of thinking or the utterly brainwashed. 'Nuff said!

[Hangarshuffle]

I still think the Guardian is an excellent newspaper - compared to the route the Daily Telegraph has recently gone down (celebrity focused- check out its recent online editions-puerile. The Grad will publish provocative stories and articles involving the military (like this one), doesn't necessarily agree or take a stance on it (that was the authors alone, with some good spikey replies below it, as well).
Some berk at the top of the thread posted a dig in at me, and suggested I was a pacifist, but what an earth that has to do with it, I've no idea. Pacifist for having a differing opinion?...where are we - 1914?
Many service people end up with differing views and ideas at the end of a long career (like mine), with a more reflective view of what they saw, did.
Still think for all the many positive attributes any Service brings to a young person, under 18's should be kept out. At the end of the day, people are recruited in to fight, one way and another. Under 18 is way too young an age to really reflect upon that, and to decide upon that. My opinion only, of course. But interesting if it is true no under 18's are recruited elsewhere in Europe. And I still think the military recruiters are entirely cynical about who they target for recruiting.
For many years, Sunderland's Army recruiting office has had the pay rates and pay structure in large letters right in the window display (especially the training and under 18 pay), above everything else. We know why that is, of course.
HS.

[Saintsman]

I arrived on my first squadron on my 17th birthday, following training.

I was then responsible for rather expensive aircraft and people's lives. I might have been young, but I was certainly grown-up thanks to the RAF.

The people I went to school with were still kids...

[Bigbux]

Its an old theme, but one to which the MoD has responded in the past. Soldiers (Sailors and Airmen) are no longer officially posted to "combat zones" before they are 18.

Also, whilst UK residents are not officially considered to be adult until they are 18, it is not strictly true to say that they are considered to be children at age 17.

The UK recognises the age 16 as being one where an individual may be employed, and the Courts attribute a greater knowledge and responsibility to a child at 12 years old, than say a child of 8.

This level of understanding increases with age, unless the child becomes a Cavalry officer, in which case it remains at 12.

[Phil_R]

I did an odd mix of A-levels at two different schools, and saw the same RAF recruiting team twice. The first time, at an absolutely awful school in the middle of a council estate, I was told that if I joined up and worked really, really hard, I too could live in a Nissen hut and be a mess steward serving meals to real people - or something along those lines.

Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."

I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.

P

[tmmorris]

I did an odd mix of A-levels at two different schools, and saw the same RAF recruiting team twice. The first time, at an absolutely awful school in the middle of a council estate, I was told that if I joined up and worked really, really hard, I too could live in a Nissen hut and be a mess steward serving meals to real people - or something along those lines.

Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."

I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.

P

Don't worry, I was told this year very explicitly that unless your school already sends lots of people into the RAF, they won't waste a recruitment team on you. They grade them and put all their efforts into the top graded ones. In other word, they would rather recruit enough adequate people into the RAF at minimum expense than go out and look for the best.

Looks like my chaps will keep going into the Guards, then.

[Bob Viking]

If you were serious about joining you wouldn't need a recruiting team to come to you.
BV:p

[Tankertrashnav]

At a careers meeting a master at my school expressed doubts about my suitability as an RAF officer, as he didn't think I was "suave enough" (my mother got quite indignant).

In fairness he was probably right, but fortunately being "suave" wasn't really a job requirement in the tanker force ;)

[FantomZorbin]

FZjr told me that when he was on a recruiting team they went to a school in the Midlands.


Headmaster: "Well how did the presentation go?"


FZjr: "I believe you may have issues with two of your students, one on the back row appears to be armed and the last one on the front row to the right has a very extreme outlook on life and the armed forces in general. Apart from that it went OK."


Headmaster: "Oh, I'll have words about the one at the back ... again. The one at the front, I'm afraid, is on the staff! :ugh:

[megan]

The best story ever Youngest RAF aircrew in combat? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-243371.html)

Obituary: Tom Dobney | News | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/news/2001/apr/25/guardianobituaries1)

Posted by Tommy Tipee

14th Sep 2006, 01:32

Thomas Dobney added 4 years to his age and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1941 at the age of only 14.

After training in Canada, he was awarded his wings at 15 and was posted to a Whitley bomber squadron.

He flew over 20 operations before his true age was revealed when his estranged father saw him in a phptograph talking to King GeorgeVI who had visited his station in East Anglia.

The astonished father contacted the Air Ministry to ask why his 15 year old
son was dressed in a pilot's uniform and talking to the King. Thus his true age emerged.

He was immediately discharged with a letter saying "The reasons are soley that you are below the minimum age".

He rejoined in 1943, but suffered serious injuries in a crash following an engine failure on take off, and by the time he recovered the war had ended.

He remained in the RAF, flew in the Berlin Airlift and became a pilot in the King's Flight.

He then joined the Metropolitan Police before returning to the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller, and subsequently became a deputy art editor with the Daily Express in Manchester.

Tom Dobney died of cancer in Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire in April 2001.

[MMHendrie1]

At the height of Axis bombing of Malta, girls as young as 14-years of age were recruited by the RAF as aircraft plotters:

‘… twenty British girls were needed for training in No 8 Sector Operations Centre, undertaking duties similar to those carried out by the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF) in Britain … . They … began in June along with Pauline Longyear, Michael Longyear’s elder sister; she was fourteen years old. This was all part of Hugh Lloyd’s push to alleviate his manpower crisis.’

‘… Marion Gould, a sixteen-year old British plotter … .’

The extracts are taken from the recently published Malta’s Greater Siege & Adrian Warburton DSO* DFC** DFC (USA), by Paul McDonald.

[langleybaston]

I gather that 18 years of age soldiers are permitted on active service?

If so, it is of passing interest that 101 years ago the lowest age permitted was 19 years, and immediately pre- that war, was 20 years for young men to serve in "the colonies" [with or without combat].

And yet I have the strong belief that youngsters matured mentally if not physically far earlier in those bad old days, partly as a result of leaving school at 12 years and needing to work to support the large families of that era.

[AR1]

I wanted to join at 16, wasn't accepted - fair enough. at 17 I applied again, and finally entered just turned 18 - Those 2 years did nothing to curb my enthusiasm, I wouldn't have been exploited, i'd have been doing what I wanted to do.
And to concur with a point above, I spent some time at home after 6 month in service, and even at 18 I was so much more mature than those i'd left behind, they made me cringe!

[mlc]

My son is 16yrs old and is currently at the Army Foundation College, Harrogate. In the three months he's been there, he has transformed from a typical teenager to a fine young man. It's done him the world of good.

He goes on to specialist training in February and we couldn't be prouder. The article is complete tosh.

[BEagle]

I passed OASC at 15 and won an RAF Scholarship to RAFC.

But I then had to wait nearly 2 years before I was able to do the Special Flying Award PPL training which was part of the RAF Scholarship scheme...:(

Like several of my contemporaries, I held a pilot's licence before a driving licence!

[Sloppy Link]

1977 as boy, left last year. Certainly matured me to an acceptable level in society. Still haven't grown up though. Raspberry.

[engineer(retard)]

Joined at 16, best decision I ever made. Commissioned later in my career and lost 5 years pension if reckonable service counted from taking the shilling. Never got pregnant though

[Tinribs]

Genstabler may find it simpler to label as lies events he finds hard to accept but the facts are;

a flying officer (I S) navigator radar on V Force squadron at RAF Marham was before a court martial in 1968 having failed to attend a mess dinner night, no other accusation was made beyond failing to obey an order.

He spent the evening before the court in my quarter and I was an officer under instruction at the trial. He was dismissed the service. I suppose the facts may be checked.

I have not touched the Daily Mail since they published a photograph of my good friend Laurie Davis's body on fire in a gutter, Genstabler can check that too.

It seems likely there was an issue with the admin senior officer pushing the case I cannot say, I think the accused had some characteristics, shared by many others including me, enabling some to object to him; he was a thinker but never disloyal and certainly not a coward.
There had been unseemly disquiet at an earlier 1 gp dinner at Bawtry, perhaps adding fuel.

This process was one of several odd legal issues that surfaced over the years. We had a SNCO aircrew court martial at RAE Bedford because the accused had claimed boarding school allowance improperly. I never understood it and nobody could explain the issues but it seemed command accountant officers were allowed to take different views about the same DCI.

My only brush with the system was dispute about what "direct" meant in home to duty travel, when I sent a 50 thou marked with each mile they gave up.

[Tankertrashnav]

"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there".

The RAF of 1968 was closer in ethos to the RAF of 1918 than to the RAF of today. One example I can give resonates with Tinribs' account of the Marham court martial.

After a summer ball at an RAF station in FEAF in 1967, an RAF Police corporal who was patrolling in the vicinity of the officers mess in the early hours observed a female officer leaving the ground floor room of a male officer (the rooms gave onto open sided corridors). The snowdrop informed said lady that he would be reporting the matter, although if she wished to bestow her favours on him he might overlook the matter.

Having told the corporal exactly what she thought of his suggestion the lady went off to her own room, and to bed. To cut the story short, the matter was reported and both officers were summarily charged and appeared before the C in C, having agreed to accept his punishment to avoid court martial. Each was sentenced to lose 12 months seniority, and the punishment subsequently appeared in the London Gazette.

Such was the moral climate of the time, although it has to be said that 95% of mess members were pretty disgusted by the couple's treatment. Someone in today's RAF, where unmarried officers occupy MQs and same sex relationships are accepted may find this story incredible, but that was the RAF of the time - the swinging sixties was happening elsewhere!

[BEagle]

We were told during OT (in 1968) that a male officer was not permitted to have a relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station....:rolleyes:

In 1977 whilst I was holding at RAF Biggin Hill, a WRAF officer was going out with a male officer on the same unit - but to avoid the beady eye of the Queen Bee, they had to leave the OM at different times and meet up off base.

Even as late as 1984 a pilot was posted away from the station where I was serving, after confessing to having had his wicked way with a WRAF ATCO - but he was married and OCO's forbade such activity in those days. Although at a certain RAF base in Germany at about that time, there were rather different applications of that order......

[Haraka]

We were told during OT (in 1968) that a male officer was not permitted to have a relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station....

Beags. When "going through again" in '73. The WRAF Sqn Ldr lecturer (C*****n M****Y ) used the phrase.
"that a male officer was not permitted to have an emotional relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station."

Pete Stacey's unmistakable accent, in laconic puzzlement, was heard from the back of the room.

" Who said anything about emotion?"

[BEagle]

Hi Haraka, yes I don't think that RAFC really understood, in those days, that a 22 year old student officer wasn't quite the same as an 18 year old Flt Cdt!

Having escaped from the Nimrod, a chap who subsequently became an AEO on Scampton's finest Vulcan squadron (not that dead dog mob) arrived at Towers for his commissioning course. The night before it was due to start, he was chatting with a young lady in the mess bar...

Now this was a chap who could charm birds from trees and knickers off nuns, so one thing led to another and they subsequently repaired to her room for a little 'entertainment', after which he returned to his own pit in the early hours.

Imagine his surprise the next day when the young lady turned out to be his flight commander....:eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

Re the dining in courts martial and RAF ethos, I gained the distinct impression the if your face didn't fit then they would seek any means to get rid of you.

AEO at Waddo married a WRAF. He was told it was inappropriate behaviour conduct unbecoming. He pointed out the he was commissioned from Shacks and not your officer class. Met him decades later, still in uniform as an RO. Another also Waddo, pilotf this time was forced out; became a major in TA.

Same station, same time, divorced ex-AEOp, permanent fg off and hugely professional, OCAdmin as PMC made his life as unpleasant as possible.

And so on . . .

Now who were the children?

[Genstabler]

You get some perspective when you recall that a young officer friend was dismissed the service by Court Martial for disobeying a legal order.


That's more like it.

[langleybaston]

Would the victim have got anywhere by starting redress proceedings after lodging written reasons for not attending the dinner, and then obeying by attending it?

[parabellum]

May have changed now but at one time it was possible to join at 15-16, as a boy entrant, but there was still the opportunity to opt out at the end of Boys Service and before entering Mans Service.


We had half a dozen lads under eighteen who were posted out before our unit went to Aden in 1963.
Don't think the journalist in the Guardian comprehends the difference between Boys and Mens service, if he does then he is deliberately obfuscating.

[The Oberon]

Parabellum.


I don't remember that being an option when I joined. I went to Locking in January 1962 aged 15 1/2. There was an option to go which lasted for the first few weeks, after that you were in, man and boy, unless you had £300.00 to buy yourself out, a lot of money in those days.

[ian16th]

I was 15 in March, left school at Easter and was a Boy Entrant on the 22nd May 1952.

I passed out still under 17 1/2, so was still a B/E, though wore my 'sparks' badge and was paid AC2's rate. Couldn't sign a F700, so wasn't assigned to work on a/c until old enough to sign.

Became an 'Airman' at 17 1/2, but my 10 year engagement only started on my 18th birthday.

No options to leave, other than to buy myself out. Can't remember the cost, but never wanted to.

[fallmonk]

The one I always found strange was in a book by Randy Zhan(?) .Think it was called "Snake eyes" he was a cobra pilot in Vietnam, who despite being trusted to fly a multi million pound helo and saving/taking life's .
Wasn't aloud to sign a credit agreement on base !
I think there is was something about him also not being legally aloud to drive a jeep on base either . But am not 100% sure on that one now . (Grey cells are fading)

[Rosevidney1]

Things certainly change with the times. Some 16 year olds will be allowed to participate in elections soon. I think the proper age for that should be the same as enlisting to serve in the armed forces - but then, I'm an old dinosaur!

[mlc]

Current under 16-17 year olds can't be deployed until they reach 18. They can DAOR at any time (if they can get past the staff talking them out of it)

[4mastacker]

The Oberon wrote:

I don't remember that being an option when I joined. I went to Locking in January 1962 aged 15 1/2. There was an option to go which lasted for the first few weeks, after that you were in, man and boy, unless you had £300.00 to buy yourself out, a lot of money in those days.

That's how I remember it. I think it was the first 28 days were free then after that you had to cough up the cash. Anyone who went down that route was immediately classed as 'CT' (Ceased Training) and put into isolation whilst the paperwork was processed. They weren't allowed any contact with those that wished to stay, were accommodated in a separate hut and ate their meals at a specific table in the mess set apart from the rest of the tables. Looking back, it was almost a form of arrest. An unheated hut at Hereford during the winter can't have been too pleasant.

[Finningley Boy]

The RAF of 1968 was closer in ethos to the RAF of 1918 than to the RAF of today.

Tankertrashnav,

I'd say the RAF of 1993 had a closer ethos to the RAF of 1918 than today,

Shortly before I left in 1990, we had a visit from P & SS doing the lecture and projector tour. They punctuated each short movie with an anecdotal story about drugs offences, that was the theme on this occasion, however, one of the Provost Officer's stories revolved around surprising two young airmen (to do with drug abuse) in the same room together. By way of a witty aside, he pointed out that because at least one foot was on the floor it negated the need for them to be investigated over another matter amounting to a breach of good old fashioned moral 1918 style.:ok:

FB:)

[Pontius Navigator]

FB, isn't discipline a wonderful thing. Probably more plods per head on a base than in the population at large.

[Rosevidney1]

I can't remember ever being bothered by the snowdrops during my training or service. I wasn't a goody two-shoes either!

[tucumseh]

This is really interesting. An old boy I used to work with in MoD was captured at St Valery with the 51st HD aged 14, and spent the war in a PoW camp in Poland.

On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.

[The Oberon]

This is really interesting. An old boy I used to work with in MoD was captured at St Valery with the 51st HD aged 14, and spent the war in a PoW camp in Poland.

On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.

Tuc, there but by the grace of God etc. Oberon senior lied about his age and joined the HLI. He was sent to France with the BEF. Grandfather Oberon found out where he was and had him sent back just in time to miss the withdrawal and Dunkirk.

[AR1]

Cant we go back to talking about sh@gging?

[Tinribs]

I had not expected to expand on the dinner night but perhaps I should

The system at Marham had an attendance list published in the mess, making it a parade, but an appended note said officers could arrange a substitute.

Said officer visited the mess office that afternoon to report his subs name but Sqn Ldr PMC replied another has dropped out through sickness and so "I want you to attend". He was dumping his problem onto IS and changing an established system. IS thought he couldn't do that or at least wouldn't push the issue.

It seems the PMC knew his AF Act well, words spoken by a senior to a junior have the meaning intended by the senior and are not open to interpretation by the hearer. Therefore failure to obey.

I couldn't find anyone else who knew that, we all thought it was seniors job, being older wiser and edicated to explain his meaning clearly

[langleybaston]

QUOTE: a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc

Are there still Police Cadets? My middle daughter was a Met Cadet [they did a fabulous job with her] but I think in their wisdom the Met. soon dispensed with such essentials.

[Tinribs]

I agree with the previous that entry to a service need not mean the youth are exposed to all danger. I was a Flight Commander at Hereford from 1969 to 72 and was much impressed by the standards of the joiners and the good we were able to do. Some of mine were men at 16 others were silly boys at 18, it depended.

Some we did not help at all and they either scraped through the basic training course to fail later or were rejected. Some arrived but then failed to attest finding their first two days of service life not to their liking.

The biggest surprise to me as a junior officer was how quickly the future leaders rose to the surface. I was tasked with moving a Hunter gate guard onto concrete plinths at SHQ by Gp Capt Ross with strict instructions not to damage the newly laid grass, a quandary.

An apprentice Corporal Shay said " no problem sir, we'll carry it" then they did much to Ross's amusement. Shay made Wg Cdr

I learn't about my lads from that