Yet Another EMS Helo Crash in the US

[KiwiNedNZ]

Well its only been a few days since the EMS helo crash in SoCal, now there is another one in AZ.

DPS: medical helicopter crashed in the Superstition Mountains - Story | KSAZ (http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/57754443-story)

[Mars]

Air Methods, which owns the helicopter that crashed, issued the following statement Tuesday night:

"Native Air (Ambulance) reported that an accident involving an AS350 B3 occurred Tuesday, Dec. 15 near Apache Junction. At this time we can confirm that three crew members - pilot, flight paramedic and flight nurse - were on-board the aircraft. The FAA and the NTSB have our full cooperation as they further investigate the accident. We want to continue to make sure we have all of the facts correct. We will be back in touch with you once we have more information."

[SASless]

A news report.....which mentions a News Helicopter will be enroute to the site during daylight hours today.

Weather may not have been an issue in this one as two other EMS helicopters, a DPS (Police), and Military Helicopter all participated in the Search and Rescue effort.

Official: 2 crew members dead, 1 hurt after medical transport helicopter crashes in Arizona - ABC15 Arizona (http://www.abc15.com/news/region-central-southern-az/other/dps-pcso-respond-to-helicopter-crash-in-superstition-mountains)

[Gordy]

This thread is dying.....Clearly because it was not weather related....and no one can "bash" his actions yet....

The pilot, Dave Schneider, has been flying for many years.... He leaves behind family and friends who are mourning his loss. Dave and I were lowly flight instructors together and shared an office well over a quarter century ago...... We both went our separate ways, but never actually flew together again, although have many mutual friends---some of whom I did not know knew him.

RIP Dave, I hope you are looking down smiling from the saddle you are riding right now, either a helicopter or from the horses you loved....

I look forward to a healthy discussion as to the cause of this crash, as I know he would too.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Gordy - Did he used to fly in Hawaii, if so met him some time ago. Think it used to be Air Maui ??

[Gordy]

Gordy - Did he used to fly in Hawaii, if so met him some time ago. Think it used to be Air Maui ??

Yes he did----while I flew on Kauai.

[SASless]

Gordy,

Sorry you lost a friend and colleague as I know that feeling all too well.

I have been waiting for some substantive information to come out before posting.

As there is a survivor....we shall learn pretty quick what the general cause was....Engine Failure or some sudden loss of control due to mechanical failure....bird strike....whatever.

What ever the exact cause...having a professional discussion about the event is right and proper as we should learn something out of tragedies such as this.

So sad to hear of the loss of some of our Fellows.

[air pig]

As someone who works in Fixed Wing Air Ambulance in the UK we do not have the pressures that our rotary colleagues have. In the UK there has been few rotary wing incidents except for the Glasgow crash which was a police helicopter.

I ask in the search for knowledge but not to render any judgement, is CRM a factor in these incidents when mechanical failure in all its forms is ruled out, Also is there possibility of as the RAF used to call it 'pressonoitis' to undertake the task or a commercial imperative involved from the companies which allows good sense and airmanship to be pushed back slightly from the foreground.

The UK AA system is based on a charity model with tasking from the NHS Ambulance service for the region, there is apparently little commercial imperative.

[Gomer Pylot]

There can always be CRM issues, both pro and con, since there are multiple persons in the aircraft. In many, if not most programs, the med crew, even one of them, can veto any flight, or force the termination of the flight after it begins. However, IMO and IME, med crews tend to trust the pilot for the most part and don't often say much, especially with an experienced pilot.

Most pressure to take and continue a flight is self-imposed. The companies don't often push pilots to fly, and often it's the opposite. Helicopter pilots tend to be mission-oriented and self-confident, often over-confident. They take flights that should be refused, and continue them when conditions are deteriorating. It can be difficult to admit that one isn't up to the task of saving a life, even though it's not actually saving a life. Any EMS pilot who thinks (s)he's in the lifesaving business needs to be in another business, but there are lots of them out there. Once upon a time the hospitals and operators did push crews to fly regardless of the weather, but those days are long past. Now pilots push themselves. How to stop that, it is a puzzlement.

[air pig]

Problems with RW AAs look to be not just a problem in the US.

As the rotary AAs tend to be immediate primary transport I suspect there could be allowed to develop a mentality of 'there's a patient waiting for us', were as I work mainly in secondary transfers where the patient is to a degree stabilised in a hospital prior to us being activated.

Exhausted paramedics fear for patients at understaffed rescue helicopter service (http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/exhausted-paramedics-fear-for-patients-at-understaffed-rescue-helicopter-service-20151216-glou9g.html) In this situation could the pilot actually say I'm not flying with xxxx as they are too exhausted to be safe on the aircraft and may put themselves or others at risk. Would this be within the responsibility of the aircraft captain?

With the company I work for we do trust our pilots implicitly and I've been into some 'interesting' places.

[Gomer Pylot]

It's difficult for a pilot to know when med crews are too exhausted to fly, but if the med crews are tired, the pilot will almost certainly be as well. But sometimes the crews change at different times, and the med crew could be tired while the pilot is still fresh. It's not unknown for med crews to take themselves out of service for crew rest. It's not common, but it happens. In the US, there are plenty of helicopter services available in most places, so most crews don't get overworked often.

[tottigol]

GomerP, the pressure is always there, it's just lying under the surface but it's there.
As long as there's revenue to make, to a degree or another the pilots shall always receive pressure.
If you want to keep a job that allows you to stay home every day, you learn to live with the pressure, and do what you need to do to keep it (the job).

[Devil 49]

Hear Gomer Pylot!

It's harder for me to decline than accept a request and I'm DECADES beyond believing that I am invulnerable.

Describing the rescue of the survivor:

Ariz. helicopter-crash rescue: ?That?s when we realized we had a survivor? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/18/arizona-helicopter-crash-rescue-realized-survivor/77533638/)

[Gomer Pylot]

Revenue has never been a concern of mine, in any sense. There are always other jobs if this one folds. I want to accept flights because that's my job, and I like it. If I didn't want to fly, I would have had another career. It's certainly easier to accept a flight than turn one down, and I've always looked for a way to get it done, safely and legally. But I've never been questioned about turning down a flight in EMS. I cannot say the same about refusing flights in the Gulf of Mexico. There was far more commercial pressure to take flights there than in EMS. I've seen pilots lose jobs because they refused to fly in the GOM. Both the helicopter company managers and the oil company personnel have pushed and insisted that a flight had to be made, no matter the weather conditions. I haven't seen that in EMS.

[Gordy]

Got this from another site, and have also heard through the grapevine:

There is chatter going around about two loud bangs, and an "oh #%*}, hang on" said from the pilot immediately after. Given the close proximity of the wreckage does indicate a forced landing or auto attempt. Merely chatter, but considering many folks have visited the surviving medic in last few days it's assumed to be a recount of events. Management understandably has been tight lipped.

[SASless]

Deadly Air Ambulance Crashes Raise Industry Safety Concerns - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/deadly-air-ambulance-crashes-raise-industry-safety-concerns-587268675695)


Some video of the crash and related information about EMS Flying in general.