Carlisle floods

[sharpend]

Whilst our sympathies are very much for the flood victims, I wonder what Pruners think of the Government using our Army to clean the streets around Carlisle football stadium? I know many soldiers were keen to go to Afghanistan to fight, but I wonder what their thoughts are cleaning the streets over Christmas?

[Tankertrashnav]

There is a long tradition of the military pitching in and helping the civil authorities in situations like these, both at home and abroad. If it was a case of the local population sitting back and doing nothing while the military did all the work I could see an objection, but I have friends who have been flooded out (they live near Brunton Park) and they tell me that everyone, service and civilian, has been working hard to try and get the mess cleared up. At least the good people of Carlisle arent going to be attempting to blow the troops up as they go about their work!

[mopardave]

Sharpend.....to be honest, I'm not impressed in the slightest......and I can only go on what I saw on tv so I won't pretend to have first hand knowledge of the situation up there.........but I can speak with SOME first hand experience. I thought they were inadequately equipped.....their PPE was woeful.......what training do they have? It's not always what you can see that's gonna get you.....there's a lot going on UNDER the water that's gonna bite you on the arse!!!! The other services will have been trained and equipped appropriately.......and paid overtime (I have no issue with that) I know that because it's what I used to do.
To me, it seemed like another case of the government using the armed forces.....singing their praises.......milking the photo opportunities and sound bites, but ultimately, they'll forget about all that when it comes to budget cuts.
I've seen things from both sides and I'm afraid I think successive governments find it too easy to use and then discard our forces personnel......disgraceful actually.
MD

[NutLoose]

Slightly biased here as my family comes from Carlisle, my sister and my brothers sons families live in Cockermouth, my other sister and brother and their families live in Carlisle.

You ask about using the military to do this, well why not, remember the tanker strikes, the floods in Wells Next to the Sea, the fireman so strikes, need I go on, the military were used in all of those, they are after all a large reserve of army manpower available to the Government who when not fighting a war are really just in training mode.

[MPN11]

@ mopardave ... concur on the PPE and training. Our niece is a Special Rescue firefighter, based in Liverpool. Her team deployed to Carlisle at VERY short notice, but at least had all the appropriate kit and training. I have been sent a photo of her there, inside a house with water up to her chest, using an inflatable stretcher for rescue work.

Troops wading around in sewage in DPM isn't a pretty sight, but at least they provided some much-needed manpower.

[mopardave]

MPN11.......that's the kind of thing I used to do. Aside from the obvious, at my station, most of us were water rescue technicians. I was well trained and well equipped......and I loved the variety.....even on a freezing cold winter night searching for someone who'd fallen into a river or canal......and we did have them. I remember being deployed to a Yorkshire mill town some years ago........prior to our specialist training......searching, sometimes chest deep in cold contaminated water, wearing fire kit......some of the lads went home and brought their own waders in.....a health and safety minefield. Anyway, we cracked on and got the job done......it was surreal.....some hours into the incident, I turned around, chest deep in all the filth, to see an ornate rowing boat, complete with a carved swan on the bow......provided by the parks and leisure division of the local council.....crewed by some rather self conscious firefighters.......like I said, surreal. I learned a lot about hazards under the surface that day!!!
My daughter is a junior doctor up there Nutloose......I think it's a nice town and my heart went out to all those who've had Christmas ruined. I hope your family were ok? A massive thumbs up to everyone from me.......but the government, nah sorry, they don't understand the concept of loyalty!
MD

[Always a Sapper]

Been there, done it and got the t-shirt, twice....

Once in the late 70's with Devon & Cornwall in that sleepy hollow know as Newton Abbott. IIRC, we all got very wet, confirmed that the Ford Escort Mk 2's we used as Panda's had a zero wading capability and the canteen ran out of pies on the second day.

Being the late 70's there was very little H&S 'issues' every one just mucked in to get the job done, local farmers rocked up with tractors and trailers, fire brigade with pumps, even a sally army tea van!

Next time was in York, late 90's while at 34 Fd Hosp (now that was a different posting for a RE :rolleyes:) As per and in keeping with the units admin at the time there was zero organisation with the guys n gals initially being sent into York centre to help with the defences or was it to fill sandbags, hundreds and hundreds of sandbags... or was it millions? Cant remember but suffice to say it was a lot... Anyway we got to give the medics a crash course on how to build a sandbag wall and defences were put in place.

A few hours into the task it was sort of mentioned that a brew would be nice and when was the RQ turning up with the Hotboxes (remember those? just like the horror box but bigger) with lunch in. As it was one of the units cooks that asked the question and the rest of his mates were with him..... :ok:

Well, it rained, the river did what rivers do and just went past the sandbags and it flooded.... York Council then had zillions of wet sandbags to pick up :ugh:

[ShotOne]

Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit.

[vernon99]

Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit.

Fair enough, but if it is all hands to the pumps(excuse the pun) then I would expect the councils etc to grab all available manpower to help, including office workers. Humping and dumping is not a skilled job, what is needed is numbers.

On a slightly different note, someone somewhere knew there was a risk of this happening, gambled and lost.
It may be that with the limited resources available they had made the best calls, but will there ever be a time when bureaucrats are actually properly called to account and disciplinary proceedings taken including and up to court action.

I know if I make a judgement and things go wrong I will be held to account and will have to explain why I chose the actions I did.

It appears some public sector workers are beyond reproach. Meek lines from senior management saying lessons will be learnt, followed by people taking early retirement to avoid disciplinary action are simply not good enough. Perhaps if the senior management were held accountable in the first instance(we need an offence of wasting public money), they would take more interest in those underneath them and quickly weed out the feckless before poor decisions are made?

[ShotOne]

I'm right with you about being called to account, Vernon. That doesn't seem to figure in the public sector anywhere these days, whether we're talking baby P or flood defences. But even with unlimited money (where from, ...defence budget??) it may not always be enough. Look at the billions spent on sea defences in Japan...And when it does i don't feel it's too outrageous to expect the services to show their qualities this way.

[Buster11]

Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen?

[Courtney Mil]

British Armed Forces have 7 roles:

- defending the UK and its overseas territories
- providing strategic intelligence
- providing nuclear deterrence
- supporting civil emergency organisations in times of crisis
- defending our interests by projecting power strategically and through expeditionary interventions
- providing a defence contribution to UK influence
- providing security for stabilisation

We were even taught about "Aid to the civil power" during officer training. It's a legitimate role which is good for the country when required and benefits the Forces in the public view. I don't think I've ever heard many complaints from the guys when tasked with such things - on the contrary, normally more than enough volunteers; and that's down to the sort of people that want to be in the military. Is anyone suggesting that's all changed?

[NutLoose]

Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen?


But as in Carlisle's case, they spent millions building a flood defence that was totally inadequate, someone somewhere should be accountable for that, the amount of flooding I have seen from photos sent to me wasn't much greater than the previous floods, that makes you wonder did they simply raised the flood defenses to the level of the previous floods and not higher?
Bitts park BTW always flooded all the years I lived there, though some areas of the City would be difficult to defend against flooding, due to the likes of where the Caldew joins the Eden and the built up area around that being in close proximity to the river with few opportunities to build defences.


The problem with flood defences though is they simply shift the problem from one area to another.

[Wander00]

Hmm - "Aid to the Civil Power". In my day ISTR we were taught to Read the Riot Act , unfurl the "Disperse or we shoot" banner, and if you fired it was "aimed shots at the ringleader(s)"

[Courtney Mil]

Lucky weren't there, Wander. I doubt aimed shots at the locals would have gone down very well in Carlisle. :ok:

[Martin the Martian]

Fair enough, but if it is all hands to the pumps(excuse the pun) then I would expect the councils etc to grab all available manpower to help, including office workers. Humping and dumping is not a skilled job, what is needed is numbers.

I've just shown that to Mrs. Martian, who is indeed an office worker with a local council (not one of the ones in the affected area). After she finished shrieking with hysterical laughter and realised the comment was made for real, she gave me one of her 'looks' and used language that even I had to resort to a dictionary for.

And if I'm honest, on reflection I have to agree with her. I know what my answer would be if I was an office worker with the local council and I was given some PPE and told to report for humping and dumping duties.

[romeo bravo]

So, we send troops to help out the residents of Cumbria, as we have before in Humberside, York, Devon, Somerset, Thames flood plain, etc, etc.
Money comes from the various budgets from 'our' tax; have we heard anything about the UK being given money from other countries as part of a rescue package?? No. We, as the UK, as quick to send money abroad to help areas under flood, suffering from earthquakes, etc, but when was the last time we received funding in return.

Maybe Mr Cameron should take this up with the EU; we'll pay into the fund as long as we get funding back and use this as an example.........

[NutLoose]

Your answer

Schadenfreude ? EU willing to help British flood victims but UK government says ?no? to disaster fund | Policy Review (http://www.policyreview.eu/schadenfreude-eu-willing-to-help-british-flood-victims-but-uk-government-says-no-to-disaster-fund/)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-britain-floods-idUSBREA1B1KX20140212

[Roadster280]

Hmm - "Aid to the Civil Power". In my day ISTR we were taught to Read the Riot Act , unfurl the "Disperse or we shoot" banner, and if you fired it was "aimed shots at the ringleader(s)"

That's MACP. This was MACC - Military Aid to the Civil Community. I did remember something from 43AEC :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Aid_to_the_Civil_Authorities

[FinelyChopped]

One of the paper and presentation exercises I did at OASC 31 years ago (to the week, even!) involved flood control. If I remember correctly, it involved a lot of calculating the volume and quantity of sandbags, and abusing the hospitality of the local WI.
Not a lot changes, does it?
All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment.

[mopardave]

FinelyChopped


I too was at OASC in December 1984.....it may well have been this week but I'd have to check on that! Mine involved a football team and a defective coach! I was beaten by the coach and ended up swimming in flood water (among other things) for a living! Hope you faired better?


MD:ok:


One of the paper and presentation exercises I did at OASC 31 years ago (to the week, even!) involved flood control. If I remember correctly, it involved a lot of calculating the volume and quantity of sandbags, and abusing the hospitality of the local WI.
Not a lot changes, does it?
All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment.

[Tankertrashnav]

From nutloose's link

Bail-outs are not just without a treaty base but are expressly prohibited by article 125. Best not to read the treaty then, perhaps.

So, hit by widespread flooding and a clean-up costing the earth, Britain is entitled to EU financial assistance under article 122. Unlike bail-out money it would be unconditional, involving no union control.

Funnily enough, I would have said this money would definitely be classified as "bail out" money. Not to mention "mopping out" and "drying up" money!

[Hangarshuffle]

A week later its not even in the London-centric news. And the troops are like "COBRA" - a simple way, a sound-bite even to make as though the Govt. are really on the case.
The military had a short term visual, very little practical help affect but at some risk to themselves - I to noticed they were trudging around in filthy water with totally inappropriate or non existent PPE or training. Risk of illness and disease must be significantly higher for them especially if they are in area for long period. The PBI's lot in life.
And now its all forgotten, really.
But then again I don't rate this Government one single IOTA anyway. Not to tackle serious issues. From handling floods or planning for flooding, to Heathrow airport expansion, to limiting immigration, to involvement in foreign wars they just keep on ******* it up.

[mopardave]

But then again I don't rate this Government one single IOTA anyway. Not to tackle serious issues. From handling floods or planning for flooding, to Heathrow airport expansion, to limiting immigration, to involvement in foreign wars they just keep on ******* it up.

Amen to all that!!!!!!!!

[Courtney Mil]

I to noticed they were trudging around in filthy water with totally inappropriate or non existent PPE or training.

How did you notice their totally inappropriate or non existent training?

[ralphmalph]

I did Op GIRAFFE in 2010 with a Lynx for the floods then. Weekend work, no stress. No civil equivalent, no police callsign.

The police were awesome, very accommodating and receptive.

Whats the big fuss....help people.

[mopardave]

Whats the big fuss....help people.

ralphmalph..........you are absolutely right. No big fuss.......just give the boys and girls some gear. Not too much to ask, me thinks. Makes life safer and more tolerable.

a fantastic and public spirited effort by all involved!!
MD

[JointShiteFighter]

OP, every member of the Armed Forces that I have been privileged to meet, signed the dotted line because they love this country and they wanted to serve her and her people. This is their job, they do it tirelessly and to perfection with what they have, whether it's on Operations overseas or rescuing UK civilians in a time of crisis. I for one am immensely proud of all of them - lets all get behind them! :)

[Thelma Viaduct]

I think it's more valid and honourable than fighting illegal wars for corporations/US presidents etc God forbid any soldiers were to die cleaning the streets of Carlisle, but at least it would have been for something worthy, unlike Afghanistan or Iraq which was a total waste of military life, civilian life, military family suffering, time & money.

[NutLoose]

God forbid any soldiers were to die cleaning the streets of Carlisle

I hope they do West Walls first, many many moons ago a local plod car spotted a young couple having sex... nothing wrong with that you might say, though he was rogering her lying down in the middle of the unlight road on a blind bend... he nearly had a premature and plowed deeper than ever before, but the plods managed to swerve and avoid forcing the issue. :E

[Thelma Viaduct]

Wonder if he managed to shoot his muck before arrest???

[PingDit]

I think it's time we got our own house in order and halted overseas flood defence funding until ours is sorted!

Cash Spent On Tackling Climate Change Abroad Is Double Amount Spent On UK Flood Defences | The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF) (http://www.thegwpf.com/cash-spent-on-tackling-climate-change-abroad-is-double-amount-spent-on-uk-flood-defences/)

[Wensleydale]

"but the plods managed to swerve and avoid forcing the issue"


Its a wonder that it didn't loosen his nuts!

[kaitakbowler]

Anyone posting on this thread actually live in (or near) Carlisle? My daughter does and is hugely grateful for any, and all, help that that has come to their aid. News crews have been a pain, often getting in the way and holding up even basic clean ups. As a service brat married to a serving RAF man she is proud of the all the service contributions to their plight. Now if they could just get the Sainsbury's Christmas deliveries sorted (so I can have my crimbo dinner) things will start to look up.

PM

[NutLoose]

I originate from Carlisle, I go home when I can, my sister and her husband, my brother and his kids and my other Sister and her family all live in Carlisle, Cockermouth and Whitehaven, plus a myriad of other family members, does that count?

Just heave a bucket of mud or water over the TV presenter, they will soon move on

[orgASMic]

As I understand it, following the last lot of firemen's strikes, the laws regarding the use of Service personnel for MACA tasks was changed so that local authorites now have to pay MOD for the support provided. This was to ensure that local authorities had plans in place for disaster relief that were a little more in-depth than 'get some soldiers to do it' which had previously been the case in some areas. MACA is now a wpn of last resort due to the cost.

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, I'd heard that too. But I'm always a sceptical about this business of paying for military involvement. The guys doing the work are already employed and paid for, so barring some overheads it's hard to see the justification for the costs. If the MoD deliberately employed extra people for MACP, then there would be a case, but it's just a case of diverting them from primary tasks to carry out a different, stated, military role. Yes, other things don't get done straight away, but we're not talking thousands of man-hours here.

I wonder what rate the MoD charge. I'm guessing it's not just transportation, food and accommodation.

[salad-dodger]

C'mon JSF with posts like this:
OP, every member of the Armed Forces that I have been privileged to meet, signed the dotted line because they love this country and they wanted to serve her and her people. This is their job, they do it tirelessly and to perfection with what they have, whether it's on Operations overseas or rescuing UK civilians in a time of crisis. I for one am immensely proud of all of them - lets all get behind them!
and similar drivel on other threads, if you are not Typhoon93, then you must be very closely related.

Where do I claim my £5? :suspect:

S-D

[kaitakbowler]

NutLoose:Just heave a bucket of mud or water over the TV presenter, they will soon move on.

She told then to shift or lift, they shifted.

PM

[Hangarshuffle]

Whatever the Army do, I wish them well. Mostly sound people doing their level best.Lashing down tonight, watching NUFC on the TV, hope the floods don't return.

[Tinman74]

The trees removed from the area around greenside mine may have contributed to the floods.

[Courtney Mil]

For those having doubts about how those involved feel about the part they're playing, their equipment or the value of the work they have been doing, have a watch...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156325677365615

Inappropriate use of the military? I think not.

[G-CPTN]

Tynedale had a much smaller (but nevertheless intrusive) flood over the 5th-7th December weekend.

We received an immediate offer of help from the local RHA (http://www.army.mod.uk/artillery/regiments/24665.aspx) army barracks, however, due to 'red tape' (the army needed to be formally invited by the County Council - who were concerned about them not wearing the appropriate PPE) they didn't arrive immediately.
The Colonel later explained that they were available for 'immediate' relief response, though not for subsequent non-immediate tasking.

It is fair to say that the response from the Police, Fire Brigade and the County Council was beyond reproach and adequate (they all mobilised resources from other regions of the county to action the rescue and clear up).

[Hangarshuffle]

Watching the news from very afar ( I work and obviously live abroad for most of the year), I rely upon the UK media to keep me updated (which in itself isn't ideal). But it seems a terrible situation. The people on TV from Carlisle and Appleby and all - are they being re-housed>? Are camps being set up for them? Where are they living?
Also, I actually agree that the troops involved should have correct and adequate PPE for the task before they start - that said getting them involved with the UK public in time of need shows how much they are still of the people, and with the people - (in contrast to so many others in public life). An important point, that and one which I admit I had missed.
More storms forecast for Boxing day.

[racedo]

At this rate wouldn't houseboats be a good idea for Cumbria :(

[Hangarshuffle]

York partly obliterated by water now. What next? Hope the rain shifts to the south, especially London. Chequers, 10 Downing Street would be better..

[NutLoose]

You reap what you sow, underinvestment by the Governments of this country over decades has brought this about, that and greed of developers who in search of a quick buck built on floodplains thus compounding the issues both on those developments and elsewhere down stream.

[ShotOne]

Sorry, Nutloose but with water levels some places 5 m higher than normal, even had the money fairy funded the most extravagant defences, many would likely by now have proved inadequate. So, no, I don't agree that this is time for a knee jerk blame-the-govt session...rather, to say a big thank you to the servicemen and others who are most usefully -and correctly -being deployed to help.

[glad rag]

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/11/uk-floods-government-got-grip-minister.


The prime minister, who returned to the flooded West Country on Monday, was said to be exasperated by the communities secretary, Eric Pickles, who attacked the competence of the EA on Sunday and apologised for the policy decisions taken by the environment secretary, Owen Paterson, who is recuperating from eye surgery.

Cameron is continuing his tour of flood-hit areas of the south-west on Tuesday while thousands of properties in the Thames Valley are at risk of flooding on Wednesday.

Amid anger about the speed of the response to the crisis, Hammond told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The government has got a grip on this. The emergency services are in the lead and they are properly organised, the military have been mobilised to provide additional support [and] additional money has been available, equipment has been brought in …

"We're dealing with an enormous force of nature here, vast quantities of water and an unprecedented weather pattern."

Asked whether he backs Lord Smith, the head of the EA, Hammond said: "This is not the time for recriminations or for discussions of who did what when. We can do that afterwards."

A sorry tale indeed.

[smujsmith]

Nutty, having spent several years living in Cumbria (unfortunately down south again now) I hope your family are all well, and well served by the troops on the ground. Particularly those in Cockermouth, whose major output (Jennings) is dear to my heart. Having experienced the firemans strike back in 79 ish, mopardave will know) I know that I could only hope that I was helping to serve my fellow countrymen. It's sad if any should feel otherwise. And I'm sure the lads now deployed are mainly happy to help out. It's a sad fact that these days news moves so fast that we all seem to want to find the scapegoat, before the problem is resolved. Be it government, civil servant, county council whatever, that is something for the future, the aid to the community must be the first priority surely ?

As an aside, I watched a piece to camera today, you know, the Sky reporter up to his wellied ankles in water, doling out advice to locals not to come to town, as there were already too many "disaster tourists" turning up ! I couldn't help but think how hypocritical that was. When you watch people busting their goolies to protect their properties and businesses, as a news cameraman films on, for public consumption, there's no wonder many resent it. Well done the servicemen I say, surely a sign of support to our fellow Britons.

Smudge

[Pontius Navigator]

Glad Rag, and your point?

[NutLoose]

Shot one,

Build on floodplains and you have two issues, one you lose the floodplain and housing stock on it then gets flooded and two you lose the soak away area of that floodplain, compound that with the fact the area is now "hard" by being built on and the run off from that.
Also you can build flood defences up as much as you want, but if you haven't dredged the river systems, something that has been cut back then your on a hiding to nothing.
Remember though, all this water needs to go somewhere, and when you build on floodplains it will shift that water elsewhere..

Ohh and I have already said well done to the troops.

Smudge,
Some of the shops in Cockermouth faired ok this time according to my sister, she tells me after the last episode as an example the butchers had the building rebuilt internally like a swimming pool with all the floors and walls sealed, so after this episode he simply had to hose it out, clean down and sterilise everything and he was back in business, others had flood defences put in place that protected them this time, not all were as savvy, but some were. Ahhh Jennings.... Nectar.

[mopardave]

Smuj.......that one was a little before my time.....but I do indeed remember the 2002 strike! I felt badly for the lads on the green goddesses, for sure. I'm pleased to see the fire service doing what they should be doing.....trust me, they will be only too happy to be getting stuck in and helping. It's a messy and potentially dangerous business and I can only hope that all those involved have NOW got some decent PPE......is that too much to ask? A "can do" military attitude will achieve most things........but I can't imagine the w*nkers who have their hands on the levers of power, getting too cold and miserable? A first class effort by all at the sharp end!


Jennings.......hmmm, more of a Theakstons man myself!


MD:ok:

[ShotOne]

You're right about floodplains of course, Nutloose. Trouble is, this is a small island, lots of people want houses to live in and they have to go somewhere.

The answer, if there is one, has to lie along the lines of your second paragraph, in making buildings flood tolerant. Most people wouldn't want 5metre flood-walls throughout their town centres even if there was limitless money to pay for them.

[Pontius Navigator]

The problem appears to be older properties rather than flood plains.

[G-CPTN]

Much to the amazement and disbelief of locals, an architect acquired land immediately adjacent to the river on a known area of flooding.

He built a large bungalow, which duly flooded to a depth of one metre.

Undeterred he then built a second storey, but once again the lower floor flooded.
He sold the property, and for a while there was respite from flooding, however, the inevitable happened, so the new owners 'tanked' the outer walls with bitumen and built a secondary stone wall up to the level of the windowcills (two metres), however the flood that had caused their most recent flooding had overtopped and destroyed the flood defence embankment on the opposite bank of the river (flooding 40 properties).
The Environment Agency rebuilt the embankment 18 inches higher (and wider) thus 'futureproofing' the 40 properties, however, the recent flood (5th and 6th December) reached to the top of the increased-height embankment rather than flowing over (at the previous height).
Had the embankment been rebuilt to the previous height, my neighbour's tanked outer wall would have protected his property this time, however it reached the windows and penetrated within the building.
The problem now is that the outer wall will have to be demolished to allow the trapped floodwater to be dried out, and, of course, raising it a further eighteen inches would obscure the downstairs windows.

And finally, downstream of the bridge there is a concrete wall that was not increased in height, so the river flowed over and flooded the 40 houses on that side of the river, however, the Environment Agency are claiming a success in that it allowed extra time for the residents to move possessions upstairs (though their ground floor was flooded to a depth of four feet and the duration of the recent flood remained at its peak for three hours so they face many months out of their properties (once again) whilst the plaster is removed and renewed after drying out the brickwork).
Quite a success!

Having said that, things are worse - much worse - elsewhere in the country - although flooding of your property is flooding, whether it be four feet or six feet, you still need to move out whilst the walls are dried out and the floorboards renewed.

PS:- we had another flood on Boxing Day this time a modest 14 feet rather than the 5th/6th December 19 feet. No dwellings were flooded this time, but the streets and roads were closed due to the water levels preventing traffic.

Several 'white goods' put out for collection are now further downstream . . .

[Tankertrashnav]

The problem appears to be older properties rather than flood plains.

Indeed. Taking Carlisle as an example, virtually all the properties which have been flooded were there when I lived in the city in the 1960's, many of them Edwardian or late Victorian. The first time these were flooded was in 2005 and many more have been flooded this year. Modern planners/architects can't be blamed for Carlisles ills. I don't know York well but it would appear that again is it is older properties near the centre which have been most affected

[glad rag]

Glad Rag, and your point?

There are many "points"...

However..

From our beloved PM, hot from COBRa

"We will be there in their hour of need"

So, what about 9 months down the line, like the previous fiasco?

York. EA had to OPEN the flood defences because the control building was about to flood,
That's right.
We are talking atomic sized incompetence, especially considering the cluster :mad: of the previous year in the SW.

I'm sure "lessons will be learnt" but :mad: all done about it.

gr

[Thelma Viaduct]

My cousin's husband, a WO2, got mobilised over Christmas and is now in York, sent from Weeton. The festivities with his young family have been disrupted, but he hasn't bitched or moaned once. We have people in the armed forces to be proud of, if not the politicians that send them from A to Z then cut their pensions/pay/allowances etc

[glad rag]

My cousin's husband, a WO2, got mobilised over Christmas and is now in York, sent from Weeton. The festivities with his young family have been disrupted, but he hasn't bitched or moaned once. We have people in the armed forces to be proud of, if not the politicians that send them from A to Z then cut their pensions/pay/allowances etc
:D :D :D :D :D

[G-CPTN]

We have had four flood events in the Tyne Valley in five weeks.

(river levels so high that stormdrains cannot discharge into the river so roads and amenity spaces are flooded - one event was so severe that 44 dwellings were inundated and the occupants have moved out - some were rescued by boats having spent the night trapped upstairs)

Our problem is that raising the defences even further (they were raised 18 inches after the last flood ten years ago breached those defences) will result in the loss of the bridge (that survived the great 1771 flood that destroyed all other bridges on the river Tyne).

Loss of this bridge would mean no bus services connecting both sides of the river to the nearby town and the further city. The bridge is also a local crossing point for cars, vans and light trucks as well as pedestrians and cyclists. The shortest detour is ten miles.

[smujsmith]

Nutty, glad to hear your folks are safe (and Jennings), Mopardave, Theakstones also shows future promise mate. Thelma, our thanks and prayers must be with your relative, on the line, and I for one totally agree with your sentiment that our "lads" will always serve us well, when called on. In many ways, we have a nation to be proud of.

Smudge :ok:

[cats_five]

The problem appears to be older properties rather than flood plains.

The changes in flood plains & agriculture upstream means bigger faster changes in water level, plus we have had massive amounts of rainfall in the catchment areas in the Pennines when the ground is already saturated.

Preventing flooding in the future isn't just about flood defences (and do you want a 5m wall along the Ouse in York?), it's got to be about slowing down the rate rain runs off at, and part of that is finding ways to increase the amount of rain the ground can absorb.

However if you solve the problem at one place you often move it downstream. :(

Where and how houses etc. are built has to be part of it as well. The butcher with a shop tiled with swimming pool materials has been mentioned, and some of the newer buildings in York have the car park on the ground floor which means flooding doesn't damage the office areas.

[cats_five]

Would however suggest that power stations, sub stations, telephone exchanges, water pumping stations and the like should be far better protected than at present.

[November4]

I have always thought that building flood defences is similar to King Canute trying to hold back the tide.

[cats_five]

I have always thought that building flood defences is similar to King Canute trying to hold back the tide.

In general I think you are right, but some vital items outlined above do need protection. And a way of mitigating flooding has to be sought, to do with slowing water leaving the catchment area.

[Pontius Navigator]

Glad Rag, that reads better, thank you. I had heard about York but given my induced deafness I thought I had misheard.

[Hangarshuffle]

What do our Dutch friends do? They seem to manage. Granted the PM can't do much about it today, but he could seriously look at the raising the level of intelligent spending on flood defence (been cut year on year by 27% in recent times apparently* source todays Guardian newspaper) and more.
About Yorkshire, in 1988 I easily remember going into Richmond and talking to two old boys about the River Swale (I was getting an angling permit) and they were convinced the whole river system generally flooded up more slowly, when they were young lads. The land absorbed more water and let it go more slowly, they said. Would this be true? Perhaps a reversion of land to other use. Bring back bogs, marsh and natural wetland? Possibly more natural woodland, upland woodland as well?
Massive vested interests (Grouse shooting, for a start) would be against that of course. The pressure on land for commercial worth is immense.
But these events are catching us out more and more frequently.


For my two cents worth further, I don't actually think the average Conservative Govt. minister gives a tuppence halfpenny about what goes on in the red areas, as it were-because politically it doesn't affect them. Politics is a nasty business and as long as the blue areas keep voting them back in, that will do for them.


But I have to say that from afar, reading the online newspapers and watching world news, that on this important issue large parts of Britain at the moment look an utter shambles. Cameron and his ilk should be minded to get a grip, and show some leadership - very quickly.

[glad rag]

CMD playing safe there on the news; shaking hands with the squaddies -silence- and the ever jovial RNLI [they may have been laughing at him but I'm unsure]

Noticed his nice sponsored jacket: can only assume it came from a BBC journalist as TNF appears to be their go to clothing [on expenses of course]

:mad:

[cats_five]

Holland is very different to the UK geologically speaking...

[Pontius Navigator]

cats five, my point was about buildings on flood plains not being flooded. Of course building upstream will increase water run off but the new buildings would not seem to have been affected to the same extent.

That said, we saw tonight new build with the ground floors raised higher. Garages still got flooded.

[ShotOne]

I'm surprised it took four pages for you to turn this into a lefty rant, hs: "average CONSERVATIVE minister doesn't give tuppence..." While of course their Labour shadows sit gushing tears of real grief -and spent their thirteen years in office building huge flood walls?

...And now it's all the fault of grouse shooters??!

[Thelma Viaduct]

A good read:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/j
an/13/flooding-public-spending-britain-europe-policies-homes?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Tankertrashnav]

I see someone "oop North" has started bleating about there being more money spent on flood defences in the South than in the North.

If that is the case, how was it that a fair chunk of Somerset looked like an extension of the Bristol Channel for weeks on end not that long ago?

Or doesn't he count Somerset as "down South"?

[smujsmith]

Oh dear,

This is becoming something of a north/south split, without need gentlemen. I notice our PM correctly quoted today that his government spends more on flood defences in the north than the south. That's as it should be, it rains more the further north you go in our "sceptered isles" as a general rule. He did though duck the direct question about the 20% cuts he has imposed across the board on these very defences. A 20% cut is just that, a matter he will not address. I'm not sure if that makes me a lefty or a right winger, personally I wouldn't vote for any of the parties currently occupying parliament. I see though an element of divide and rule coming in this false wedge being driven about a north/south divide.

Smudge

Apologies for any political inference, I'm bereft of the daft pastime personally.

[NutLoose]

I watched Cameron being filmed in his wellies walking from a dry road into an inch or two of water to get his photo taken with similar wellie clad troops and I thought what a prat.... No I tell a lie, I thought what a Scum sucking low life politician trying to score kudos points off other people's misery prat.

There are people who have lost everything and here is this cretin splashing around in the water as if he is having a day out at the beach trying to score brownie points via the tabloids being filmed / photographed, as he knows the images of him wellie clad in water will appear in the papers.. :mad::mad::mad:

[NutLoose]

See what I mean

UK floods: David Cameron defends flood investment - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35190896)

[BEagle]

NutLoose, what absurd, facile comments.

Yes, the PM has been at the scene and has been sympathising with those affected by the flooding. Why does that raise your ire so?

[radar101]

Nutty,


If he hadn't gone there the tabloids would now be full of "Why hasn't he visited these areas?"


While holding no great love for politicians, in this case they cannot win!

[NutLoose]

It's not the fact he was there, it's the lets go stand in the water for the photo shoot, to make him look like he is involved in all of this. He could have just as easily shook the troops hands 3 foot to the left on the dry road, but that wouldn't be photogenic and make him appear to be involved.

[Pontius Navigator]

Having done the media course, it is all about composition. Composition arranged by the media ops person or the camera man more likely than by the PM. Standing in water tells the story.

Now what gets my pip is the media person standing in the puddle getting soaked by rain, becoming part of the story. During the firemens' strike, one TV shot was from a studio camera out the window at the studio pretending that their car park was at an emergency fire station.

Yes, the news shows the floods but always selective.

[Nige321]

NutLoose

Your vapid comments are a disgrace. Had the PM not gone north he'd be accussed of not caring.
When he does go, he's standing in the wrong place.
Typical pathetic drivel from a typical leftie luvvie.

I was no particular fan of politics until I was invited for a tour of parliment by my MP. I found a man working long hours trying to do his best for his constituents, and his brief.
Give your MP a ring and go and have a look, it might just wake you up.

Arguments about Cameron reducing flood defence funding are ridiculous.
This problem has been building through successive governments, Red and Blue. If Cameron had doubled the funding, it's unlikeley this flooding would be any different...:ugh:

[octavian]

Nut loose:

Don't hold back. Just tell us what you really think.

[vernon99]

Arguments about Cameron reducing flood defence funding are ridiculous.
This problem has been building through successive governments, Red and Blue. If Cameron had doubled the funding, it's unlikeley this flooding would be any different...

Perhaps not, but if he had doubled the funding, he could have gone and stood in the water in his wellies with his head held high, and let people know he doubled the funding(of course 1/2 of nothing isn't much) and that obviously it is not enough as the effects of climate change are more pronounced than were predicted, and he would look at providing more cash to prevent this happening again next year.

[Pontius Navigator]

Look at the environmental agency flood maps. They show floodrisk for river/sea and also surface water

[glad rag]

NutLoose

Your vapid comments are a disgrace. Had the PM not gone north he'd be accused of not caring.
When he does go, he's standing in the wrong place.
Typical pathetic drivel from a typical leftie luvvie.

I was no particular fan of politics until I was invited for a tour of parliament by my MP. I found a man working long hours trying to do his best for his constituents, and his brief.
Give your MP a ring and go and have a look, it might just wake you up.

Arguments about Cameron reducing flood defence funding are ridiculous.
This problem has been building through successive governments, Red and Blue. If Cameron had doubled the funding, it's unlikely this flooding would be any different..

c/o
Conservative Party,
4 Matthew Parker Street,
London,
SW1H 9HQ

PS I've corrected your appauling speeling errorz...:O

[Heathrow Harry]

peopel are still allowed to build houses on floodplains

TBh I have somewhat limited sympathy with people who live in streets called "Watermeadow Drive", "Mill Lane" or "Marsh Crescent" who are surprised when the water arrives - butthen people buy on "San Andreas fault Blvd" I guess

When you buy a place you should look at flood maps - they are available......

[Nige321]

c/o
Conservative Party,
4 Matthew Parker Street,
London,
SW1H 9HQ


Absolutely.
Not paid up, but with the alternative being Comrade Corbyn...
Oh, and my MP isn't Blue...

PS I've corrected your appauling speeling errorz...
That should be P.S.

[ExRAFRadar]

Oh good a discussion on punctuation in a thread about flooding in the UK in the Military Aviation Forum.

[Mil-26Man]

Comma after 'oh good', ExRAFRadar.

[G-CPTN]

Or a hyphen . . .

(or should it be called an em dash?)

[Nige321]

Back to the floods...

Interesting info here...
floodpreventionsociety
(http://www.floodpreventionsociety.org.uk/)

[MPN11]

Called family in the Vale of York for their update [they're a few miles south of Leeming]. An interesting point was raised ...

It seems that after crops have been harvested, the farmers don't plough deeply any more ... just the top few inches. It's apparently quicker and cheaper that way. So the substrate remains as firm as ever, and thus less able to act as 'blotting paper' and facilitating run-off. Apparently they started doing this only fairly recently [5 years?].

I have no idea ... I don't have an agricultural background, and nor do my family 'oop there. But it could be a partial 'self-inflicted injury'. Would be interested to hear from any 'gentleman farmers' on here.

[cats_five]

Called family in the Vale of York for their update [they're a few miles south of Leeming]. An interesting point was raised ...

It seems that after crops have been harvested, the farmers don't plough deeply any more ... just the top few inches. It's apparently quicker and cheaper that way. So the substrate remains as firm as ever, and thus less able to act as 'blotting paper' and facilitating run-off. Apparently they started doing this only fairly recently [5 years?].

I have no idea ... I don't have an agricultural background, and nor do my family 'oop there. But it could be a partial 'self-inflicted injury'. Would be interested to hear from any 'gentleman farmers' on here.



Have you heard about low-till / no-till farming?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-till_farming


No-till and Low-till Agriculture - HowStuffWorks (http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/conservation-agriculture1.htm)


It's also better to replant immediately than leave the soil fallow, which is mostly what happens round here.

[MPN11]

Thank you .. Every Day's A School Day here :)

being an Urban person, I am clearly completely ignorant of such matter, although I did note If a soil has poor drainage, it may need drainage tiles or other devices in order to help with the removal of excess water under no-till. Farmers should remember that water infiltration will improve after several years of a field being in no-till, so they may want to wait until 5–8 years have passed to see if the problems persists before deciding to invest in such an expensive system.

Perhaps this is part of that transitional period?

Anyway, thanks again, and I will re-transmit those links back to Yorkshire!

[glad rag]

Back to the floods...

Interesting info here...
floodpreventionsociety
(http://www.floodpreventionsociety.org.uk/)

Pretty damming stuff.

[cats_five]

Many of the current 'problem' rivers have never been dredged to any great degree. What has changed over a longer period of time is the management of the uplands, so that less water is absorbed and run-off is faster leding to a bigger faster peak in the water level downstream, and hence more flooding.


We are also having unprecedented levels of rainfall - we have had the wettest December in many areas since 1910.


December on track to be the mildest on record | Met Office News Blog (http://blog.metoffice.gov.uk/2015/12/24/december-on-track-to-be-the-mildest-on-record/)


If it was simply the transfer of management to the EA as the site claims the York floods of 1982 (for example) wouldn't have happened. Those floods were what lead to the Foss Barrier being built.

[glad rag]

UK floods: Moment Tadcaster bridge collapses - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35195153)

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXaaU4UUQAAJ-NC.jpg

[Hangarshuffle]

Absence of Leadership seems apparent as well. Head of the Environment Agency is on holiday in I think, Barbados...I was reading about it in one of the rags. To be fair, his 100k GBP p.a. job is only part time... and also everyone does deserve a holiday - just bad timing? Or worse, maybe he doesn't care that much. Apparently he has like about 10 other jobs, directorships, paid roles...
I've seen pictures in some of the papers today of the Army erecting tinny looking temporary flood barriers that work as deflectors....a bit late now really. Do they work?
I'm sorry but it is really hard not to get an impression of Britain as an utterly bereft of ideas, totally caught on the hop and badly divided shambles at the moment. And yet the weather, long a topic of grim humour, may just may this time it could be a catalyst for some change - I really hope so.
(Didn't that prolonged period of bad weather in Europe 1771 plus ultimately be responsible for bringing about 1789 and all that?)
Well Storm Frank should be hitting soon. Good luck people.

[Pozidrive]

I think that's a rather cynical opinion.


Check out Bewdley on the Severn and you'll find that "tinny little barriers" do work.


The EA have plans, so what could the Chief Exec contribute right now. It's best to keep the bosses out of the way at times like this.

[Simplythebeast]

Here in Selby we suffered during the "once in a hundred year event" in 2000. As a result the flood defences were built up and during this period we have had no flooding in the town despite the water levels exceeding those of 2000, in fact they were the highest ever recorded here.
So I am quite happy to report that some of us Oop North have benefited from decent flood defences.😊

[KPax]

I noticed an RN Sea King going to rescue stranded passengers on a bus in Scotland, good effort Gannet unfortunately won't be long before they are gone.

[glad rag]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/792097/storm-frank-everything-know-thats-happened-far-today/

https://i1.wp.com/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/12/WaveBait-660x4961.jpg?resize=480%2C361

[ShotOne]

Couldn't help noticing Mr Jeremy Corbyn expressing his sympathy to damp flood victims on TV yesterday. Nicola Sturgeon too, actually.

Presumably Nutloose is furious about this.

[Heathrow Harry]

despicable ambulance chasers both of them......... ;)

[Hangarshuffle]

Volunteers as well, not pressed men. I'm quite impressed - well done the Royal Lancers. (Not Carlisle region, more the York area).


Soldiers who gave up Christmas break to help flood victims praised by Armed Forces Minister (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/14190040.Soldiers_who_gave_up_Christmas_break_to_help_flood_ victims_praised_by_Armed_Forces_Minister/)

[taxydual]

Volunteers as well, not pressed men

Really, I'd love to believe it. But......being ex-military myself..........It's a shame the good Minister didn't come with goodie's. A 'stand down' The Lancers for a couple of weeks would have been nice. Seeing as overtime is a myth.All the same, Well Done The Lancers,

[Exnomad]

Surely "overtime" in any military outfit is a myth.
Apart from things like limiting flying and driving hours for safety reasons, you carry on until the job is done, or you fall asleep.
I do not imagine you clocked off on the Western froint, or more recently in Cyprus or the Falklands

[ShotOne]

The RNLI, Mountain Rescue and other groups working alongside certainly aren't being paid overtime. Or any salary at all, come to that.

[Trim Stab]

The RNLI, Mountain Rescue and other groups working alongside certainly aren't being paid overtime. Or any salary at all, come to that.

The RNLI and MR etc are not obliged to turn out - they are volunteers (albeit very worthy volunteers). I myself am a volunteer in my local civil defence cadre here in France and turn out for them whenever I can.

It is a different sort of sacrifice to military who, when on rare occasions are ordered to turn out to supplement the civil defence forces, have no choice in the matter (even though they are usually very keen to help anyway). It is quite right that they should be compensated for their lost leave.

European countries are, for the most part, well managed and have a good balance between volunteer community spirit and state resources. If we regress to a system where there are no volunteers and no community spirit, we will be going backwards to the dismal levels of other parts of the world.