Tornado F2

[Shaft109]

Following on from a previous thread about the F3 I'm curious about this forgotten aircraft.
Were they just trainers or actually capable jets?

I know a little potted history and the repair saga but want to know about their time in service that Wiki doesn't tell you.

[O-P]

They weren't 'just trainers', then again, they weren't very capable either!

Apart from the backend and engines, there were numerous avionic differences (single IN etc)

Anyway, they served a purpose...well ish.

There was a quite well developed plan to make the F2s into weasels with ALARM, then came Airworks.

[BEagle]

Only 18 of the gutless things were built and they were (fortunately) soon taken out of service. No working AI radar, unable to carry 8 missiles and with countless other faults, they were some of 't bungling Baron Waste o' Space's worst ever aircraft.

I recall an AAR trial with one carrying 4 tanks - we had to descend to around 10000 ft and turn with no more than about 20° AoB in order that the F2 could remain in contact in the turn...:rolleyes:

[Courtney Mil]

Just to be clear, Shaft109, the airframes damaged in the Airwork saga were all F3, not F2, although F2 fuselages were used to replace the damaged ones.

As for the F2 itself, it was a bit of a donkey in my opinion. Why it was even bought into service before it was ready and fit for purpose has always been a very sore point - one that still leads to a great deal of scepticism regarding new aircraft being fielded, a specially as it seems to be the norm for the full, promised capability only seems to arrive shortly before end of service.

[Shaft109]

Sorry yes I knew the F2 were cannibalised to repair the damaged F3, was it easier than fitting the F3 gear into the F2 airframe if that makes sense?

[Courtney Mil]

Well, that's pretty much what they did, Shaft. It was the F2 airframe they used. Or have I misunderstood?

[O-P]

'Hippo' fit was not just restricted to the F2. It did give you the ferry capability to reach Cyprus (F3), or cross the Pond (E to W), without your truly wonderful services. The fit gave you an additional 7500ltrs of gas...that's about...well a lot! (Yes, there is a drag factor).

[Shaft109]

Sorry will clarify - the way I understand it a number (12?) of F3 were damaged by incorrect repairs and so the stored F2 airframes were 'cut up' to get the required new structure centre section, patched in like a cut and shut to the F3.

Or did they gut the F2, bin the bits and engines and then take the F3 engines and kit and retro fit it to the earlier but largely untouched airframe?

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, I'm with you now. It was only the centre section of the fuselage so it was an easier job than completely dismantling the entire aircraft and effectively rebuilding it. As it was, the centre sections required a fair amount of internal modification to make them compatible.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Hansard extract below from here:

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 11 Mar 1997 (pt 18) (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199697/cmhansrd/vo970311/text/70311w18.htm)

" Airwork Ltd.

Mr. Sweeney: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on his Department's claim for compensation for damage caused to Tornado F3 aircraft by Airwork Ltd. [20069]

Mr. Arbuthnot: A negotiated settlement has been reached in respect of my Department's claim for structural damage to Tornado F3 aircraft while being modified by Airwork Ltd. during 1992-93. I am pleased to report that, of the 16 aircraft involved, 11 have been repaired and delivered back to the RAF and the remainder will be delivered progressively over the next few weeks, with the last due for delivery in May this year. One aircraft was lost in the crash off Blackpool in September 1996, the cause of which was not related to the modification programme on which Airwork had been engaged. The F3 aircraft were repaired by replacing the damaged centre fuselages with those from surplus F2 aircraft which had been earmarked for disposal. This was to ensure that the aircraft were returned to operational service as soon as possible.

In choosing to replace the centre fuselage, the aircraft have been given valuable additional fatigue life. The overall cost of this work has been around £20 million. Taking this improvement into account, together with the costs which might have been incurred had arbitration been pursued, we have agreed that the Bricom Group, which owned Airwork at the time of the damage, will pay £5 million to the Ministry of Defence in settlement of our claim. "

[Al R]

Going off at a tangent, am I imagining that the GR5 fleet was grounded at the start of the 90s for similar rectification work?

[Finningley Boy]

As for the F2 itself, it was a bit of a donkey in my opinion. Why it was even bought into service before it was ready and fit for purpose has always been a very sore point - one that still leads to a great deal of scepticism regarding new aircraft being fielded, a specially as it seems to be the norm for the full, promised capability only seems to arrive shortly before end of service.

One might say it re-invented the Gloster Javelin, now there was never quite ready Fighter! Right through its operational service from FAW1 to FAW9R.

FB:)

[chevvron]

Only 18 of the gutless things were built and they were (fortunately) soon taken out of service. No working AI radar, unable to carry 8 missiles and with countless other faults, they were some of 't bungling Baron Waste o' Space's worst ever aircraft.


Attending ATC camp at Coningsby in '89, we were told the F2s didn't have ANY AI radar, just a lump of concrete to keep the CG correct. There were some USAF F15s there at the time and I watched an F2 try to emulate an F15 departure; he levelled off at about 2,000ft.

[ORAC]

Attending ATC camp at Coningsby in '89, we were told the F2s didn't have ANY AI radar, just a lump of concrete to keep the CG correct. Technically known as the BLUE CIRCLE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Circle_Industries) radar...... ;)

[Rhino power]

...I watched an F2 try to emulate an F15 departure; he levelled off at about 2,000ft.

Must've been an F.3 you watched, the F.2's were all gone from 229 OCU during 1987. I had a base visit in June of 1987 with my local ATC Sqn, 228 OCU had recently relocated to Leuchars (bugger, said I...), and we had a tour of the OCU hangar and it was full of newly delivered F.3's having post delivery inspections, along with those already on the OCU. We also had a tour of the 29 Sqn HAS site and they were all F.3's as well, although to be fair, 29 never operated the F.2 anyway, I don't recall seeing an F.2 on base at all...

-RP

[Red Line Entry]

The flying ballast for the radar was never (at least from my experience) concrete. It was a thick metal disc that was both blue and circular - hence the Blue Circle epithet.

[dougieb2]

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/Dougieb2/Image6_zpsb9j2hbv7.jpg (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/Dougieb2/media/Image6_zpsb9j2hbv7.jpg.html)


By way of a comparison here's one of my holiday snaps from that treasure in the med.

[Bob Viking]

I'm no engineer but why wouldn't you park them with their wings folded to save space? Was it too much of a faff to power up and move the services?

Honest question, not a wind up.

BV:O

[Stitchbitch]

BV not sure but I don't think they did, at least iirc the wings weren't swept when they were jammed in the hangar on a Friday afternoon - 56(R) - despite the aircraft being pushed in like they'd been playing a giant game of twister.

[izod tester]

I was operating a desk when the Tornado entered service, but I would suggest that the CoG may have been a bit marginal on the ground with the wings fully swept.

[O-P]

The problem with parking them wings swept was due to the APU exhaust. Beyond (can't remember the number) degrees, the APU would blow on the wing/flaps. there was a finite time limit (can't remember that either), by which, you had to have the right engine started and the wings swept forwards.

[Bob Viking]

Good answers. Could you therefore only get Hydraulic power with an engine running? Or could the APU provide hyds? Was there no EHP?

It's not like me to get all geeky about tech stuff I don't know what's come over me.

BV:8

[Stitchbitch]

BV If you're still at the secret Welsh ab, there's a chap in the 'virtual aviation building' who may be able to help answer your questions.

[flipflopman RB199]

Bob,

No EHP like the mighty pussycat, you could run all services off the APU and SPS system, but as mentioned, with wings swept the APU exhaust would impinge on the back end of the inboard pylon and missile if fitted, along with the flaps.

A handily placed shovel more than makes up for this as a useful efflux deflector though! :ok:

Although both No1 and No2 Hyd systems could be operated off the APU, Wing Sweep took a fair bit of Hydraulic grunt, so when moving the wings off the APU, if you didn't take things very slowly and gingerly, it would often cough out in disgust and things would go very quiet!

As also mentioned, with ground crew generally crawling over any aircraft in the hangar, without a full fuel load in the front, the C of G could get a bit tail happy, although with its Cell 'O' the F3 was much less of a problem than the GR when it came to this.


Flipflopman

[O-P]

Bob,

The APU would run the gearboxes (Hyds and Gen), but you stood a good chance of blowing it out if you tried to sweep the wings on the APU alone.

Hope that helps.

As for the CoG argument, the GR had a problem, not so with the longer F2/3. We would routinely taxi (and even reverse) with the wings fully swept.

[Bob Viking]

Excellent tech lesson thanks. I presume you were talking about JR for the knowledge, SB.

BV:ok:

[glad rag]

I was unfortunate to witness a pair of nosewheels leave the ground once.
Trouble was the "cab" :) was going backwards at the time attached to a towing arm ensemble....

TF I was only a visitor so was able to bravely run away when all the shouting started [such terrible words from the previously mild mannered sqn WO, we had only just "met" that morning] : never really liked the place after that, even the sight of lumpy jumpers seductively slipping into their issue wellingtons in the airmans mess for the swift wade to their accommodation failed to make the appropriate impression...

..speaking of impressions; this was the age where the MASTER stayed in one location, ie no MASTER trolley and the jet came to it.

We "visitors"were to carry out yet another :mad:ing MASTER as the sqn bods were too busy eating the T -bar out of buns, when one sharp sighted airman says, hey glad, that wasn't yesterday; and neither it was, a perfect impression of the front of a LR defender in the annex wall next to the bowser door!!

Happy days..

[gamecock]

Plenty of info here:

TORNADO (http://www.tornado-data.com/index.html)


The flying ballast for the radar was never (at least from my experience) concrete. It was a thick metal disc that was both blue and circular - hence the Blue Circle epithet.

All the ones I saw in various hangars at Leeming and St Athan for 10 years were definitely concrete - hence the Blue Circle epithet!

[Scruffy Fanny]

Top tip trying to reverse an F2/3 with the Buckets don't do what i dd and jab the brakes when it all went a bit pete tong - i almost ended up sitting it on its arse - not a bright idea !

[O-P]

SF,

You're not the only one to have tried that trick...and scared themselves sh1tless.

[taxydual]

Easing slightly off topic........but.

When Leeming was being developed from a JP unit to a Tornado unit, the local 'anti noise' brigade were up in arms.

As a PR gesture, a 'Tornado' was deployed to show the locals what it was about.

The 'Tornado' did a few circuits and bumps, no reheat, it tip toed around the circuit. The locals went home happy. 'Not as bad as all that' etc comments.

The 'Tornado' was an F2, on minimum fuel, no underwing stores, the future OC Ops in the nav seat.

Then came the F3. What a wake up! The noise, the crackle, the nightly ground runs.

At the time, they were a pain in the a***.

The soundproofing, MoD issue, for the local residents houses, were as useful as chocolate fireguards.

Then they were gone. Squadrons scattered and disbanded.

Silence reigns at Leeming (apart from a Tatty Ton Hawk).

Oh, how they are missed. Please bring aviation back to RAF Leeming.

[Red Line Entry]

Gamecock,

Interesting that you saw true concrete ballasts, perhaps they were ground use only?

AFAIR, the reason the wings were kept swept forward was so the flaps and slats could be lowered on shutdown. This allowed proper inspection on the flight servicings.

[Courtney Mil]

Taxi dual,

The MoD did not issue "soundproofing". After the noise footprint was measured, the MoD was required to pay for various modifications to people's houses (double glazing, etc) carried out by civilian contractors who had bid for the contract on the basis of being able to achieve the required noise attenuation.

[taxydual]

CM

I know all that (MoD issue/MoD paid for, same thing really). I lived on Roman Road in Leeming Village (whilst wearing a light blue suit). I had the unenviable/enviable (delete as required) role of having a foot in both camps.

A local as well as a serviceman.

I bet you 'aided' the noise attenuation (not) on your visits the the premier F3 unit. :ok:

Rgds

[Courtney Mil]

More than aided. After Leeming was closed for a few years, we were invited to start flying in there ahead of reopening to get the locals used a little noise again. I was instructing at Chiv at the time so was very happy to take a couple of jets and some studes up there for a Night stop in Northallerton or Bedale. All for a little noise.

[taxydual]

All for a liitle noise.

I'm amazed how many locals miss that liitle noise.

Rgds

[Harley Quinn]

I'm amazed how many locals miss that liitle noise

'Twas the Sound of Freedom

[Monsun]

Regarding noise at Leeming I recall a half hour programme by Tyne Tees television all about Tornado noise featuring one particularly gobby woman from Scruton who was up in arms about the new arrivals.

The whole thing made me write a letter of complaint to TTTV (copy to John Rooume, station commander) as the editing gave the impression the noise was constant. Having been brought up in Leeming Bar I also argued that it was actually worse with 3 FTS as that was constant (surprising the noise a JP can make on a frosty November night!)

[ORAC]

Amazing thing the web.

A thread on a LR Discovery site concerning the F35 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic135998.html), which migrates into reminiscences on building the Tornado GR1/4 and F2/3.

e.g. I think the worst job on all marks of Tornado was changing the left or right fuel cock main shut off valve in zone 25 with the gearbox and IDG installed, you got soaked in fuel that ran down your arms and started to burn you, then smelt terrible when you got home..

[glad rag]

It still is!!

[Blue_Circle]

Technically known as the BLUE CIRCLE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Circle_Industries) radar...... ;)
Sorry about the thread resurrection but I resemble that remark. :)

The Blue Circle thing tickled me when I heard it from my late father in law who was involved with course design for the introduction of the F2.

[Box Brownie]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x775/f2_6258fa860626a40d901ffd4fa8444379da806663.jpg

[57mm]

With that drag index, I'm surprised he still needs speedbrake......

[GreenXCode]

Hippo was common across the UK Tornado fleets - two 2250l uwg & two 1500l under fuselage w/o the top fins, eventually…

[gamecock]

Interesting that you saw true concrete ballasts, perhaps they were ground use only?
Apologies, only just seen this reply. No, I'm pretty sure they were flown into and out of St Athan with the concrete ballast. Along with every ADF'd panel on the squadron!

[NIREP reader]

When we’re the 2250 tanks introduced to the fleet. I know the above is a prototype and I’ve seen photos of it taking off from Boscombe with 4 1500 tanks.

[ORAC]

IIRC the 2250 as introduced with the F2 ADV and later cleared for use by the GR1 for GW1.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/546616-tornado-f-2-3-tanks-geek-corner.html

https://www.pprune.org/10075883-post11171.html

[Lima Juliet]

On the F3:

Lima Fit = 2x 2250L tanks - aka “big jugs”
Mike Fit = 2x 1500L tanks - aka “little jugs”
Romeo Fit = 1x 1500L tank on under-fuselage shoulder pylon (slightly offset either side) - aka “stupidy fit” because it looked stupid!
Ferry Fit = 2x 2250L tanks, 2x 1500L tanks - no AMRAAM or SkyFlash can be carried. Aka “ferry fit”

A Tornado F3, ZE155, flew unrefuelled in ferry fit non-stop across the Atlantic from Goose Bay to Warton on 24 Sep 1987. It was the first RAF fighter aircraft to do so without air-to-air refuelling. The flight took 4 hours 45 minutes.

[hunterboy]

A Tornado F3, ZE155, flew unrefuelled in ferry fit non-stop across the Atlantic from Goose Bay to Warton on 24 Sep 1987. It was the first RAF fighter aircraft to do so without air-to-air refuelling. The flight took 4 hours 45 minutes.
What altitude would it be transitting the Atlantic in the ferry flight fit?

[LOMCEVAK]

There were three ADV prototypes, all F2s, A01 (ZA254), A02 (ZA267) and A03 (ZA283), and A01 and A02 were used for the initial envelope expansion trials which meant that they had to get to the high speed/g/AOA conditions required. The 2250l tank trials started at Boscombe in June 1987 using and this fit would have been flown at Warton prior to this. These tanks were cleared to 1.3M in 63 wing in July 1987 which was interesting! These trials were flown in A01 (which could actually be flown solo because the IN control panel was in the front cockpit although all of these sorties were flown 2 crew). The standard missile configuration for handling trials was 4 x AIM9L and 2 x Skyflash on the rear stations in order to give the most aft cg position and thus the most adverse handling characteristics. In level flight with Combat power it was possible to sustain only 1.05M so the turns at 1.3M and maximum g/AOA were steep nose down to say the least but we did get there and the handling was benign. Needless to say, the VC-10 tanker that was in support was kept busy on this 3 hour sortie!

GR1 2250l tank trials had started at Boscombe by October 1987 so this was not associated with Op Granby. This clearance was only to 0.92M as per the 1500l tanks as a supersonic clearance was not required.

The final flight of a F2 was on 30 November 2011. This was ZD902, an F2A, which was the highly modified Tornado Integrated Avionics Research Aircraft (TIARA). This had been modified and operated initially by RAE Farnborough in the early '90s. It was also the last military aircraft to leave Farnborough when it ceased to be a MoD airfield, on 18 October 1994.

What would we do without logbooks ...

[frodo_monkey]

What altitude would it be transitting the Atlantic in the ferry flight fit?

Early 20s if you were lucky!

[LOMCEVAK]

What altitude would it be transitting the Atlantic in the ferry flight fit?
From memory, we went to 20 000 ft when we cleared this fit although that was not stipulated as a limit. I think that BAeS had only been to 10 or 15 000 ft.

Are you sure that this flight was Goose to Warton? I remembered it as Gander to Macrihanish.

[Lima Juliet]

Likely a “blue spruce route” below FL290 within the North Atlantic Track System (NATS) :ok:

[CharlieJuliet]

In 1987, at EPTS, we exchanged our Lightning T5 XS 422 for a Tornado F2 ZD 935.. Whilst the F2 acceleration at low level exceeded that of the Lightning any hope of level supersonic flight at 40,000 ft was not realised. In the Lightning we could demonstrate the loss of roll rate when supersonic, caused by the shift in cp, whereas the F2 could not get to 1.3 at 40 and sustain a level turn!

[ExAscoteer2]

Likely a “blue spruce route” below FL290 within the North Atlantic Track System (NATS) :ok:

NAT tracks do not exist below FL290. I guess you are talking about a mirror? Why would you do that? Why not pick the best track with min headwind.

Additionally I doubt very much the Tornado crews would have selected the route, but the Tanker crews.

[ORAC]

If it was an unrefuelled transit, why would they have a tanker? (Nimrod for navigation and SAR perhaps)

[ExAscoteer2]

Did the F3 have the capability of an unrefuelled transatlntic crossing?

Even if they did, as I said NAT tracks do not exist below FL290.

Again, if they had a Nimrod(s) providing SAR cover, the Nimrod crew(s) would dictate the track.

[Davef68]

GR1 2250l tank trials had started at Boscombe by October 1987 so this was not associated with Op Granby. This clearance was only to 0.92M as per the 1500l tanks as a supersonic clearance was not required.
.

I don't think they appeared in the squadrons until Granby. Some swapping went on as the F3s were seen with pink 1500ltr tanks

[57mm]

On V Sqn we found the big jugs severely limiting. With fuel in them, no rapid or moderate rolling was allowed. Tanking above 15k required one burner. Take-off performance was compromised, even at Coninsgby - what they did at Leeming I don't know. We rapidly realised that operationally we should use them as they were titled, ie drop tanks, use them then lose them.

[ATSA1]

Reading this thread, it seems that the F2 and F3 were not really fit for purpose as Medium to High level Interceptors...

or am i missing something?

[BEagle]

Reading this thread, it seems that the F2 and F3 were not really fit for purpose as Medium to High level Interceptors...

or am i missing something?

You are. AMRAAM, ASRAAM and JTIDS!!

[ATSA1]

All good stuff, but how capable was the airframe to get the missiles into suitable envelopes to fire?

I heard at the time that when the MiG29s first visted Farnborough in 1988, the F3 escorts struggled to keep up with them!

[BEagle]

No they didn't!

I flew the VC10K with the press party (AP, ITV, BBC, TASS, AvWeek, Flight etc.) on that trip; one problem was that the F3 outfit had an extra jet which they positioned between the VC10K and the MiG 29s, which was an infernal nuisance. After we met them over the North Sea, all went fine until the descent through the Daventry sector, when ATC weren't very helpful. We had to leave the formation and rejoin below cloud, by which time the F3s were doing their own thing contrary to the brief.

But the journos got their shots for rhe magazines and the video went out on the evening news!

[Lima Juliet]

ExAscoteer2
Did the F3 have the capability of an unrefuelled transatlntic crossing?

Yes! As per my previous post.

A Tornado F3, ZE155, flew unrefuelled in ferry fit non-stop across the Atlantic from Goose Bay to Warton on 24 Sep 1987. It was the first RAF fighter aircraft to do so without air-to-air refuelling. The flight took 4 hours 45 minutes.

You are of course correct that Blue Spruce isn’t in the NATS, my poorly written post, but it is detailed within NAT Doc 007 which is what I was trying to point out. There is not much chance of an F3 flying at FL285+ in the cruise in Ferry Fit, hence it would have been below the NAT tracks. I suspect it cruised between FL150 and FL200 for most of the transit in that fit. Even clean, ie. with no tanks, the aircraft didn’t like cruising above FL330, but it could get above FL500 (allegedly :cool:) if you were doing M1.2+. But then you would be in min reheat and so you wouldn’t be up there for too long!