Not all sweetness and light in USAF

[air pig]

Looks as if USAF is heading into or has arrived at some serious problems.

Gen. Mark Welsh sounds alarm on undermanned Air Force (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/12/01/welsh-sounds-alarm-on-undermanned-air-force/76617202/)

And then there is the pc air force.

Report: ACC mandates race, gender criteria for promotion board (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/careers/air-force/officer/2015/12/01/report-acc-mandates-race-gender-criteria-for-promotion-board/76610982/)

[JointShiteFighter]

535,000 active personnel (how many retired but on the list in case it hit the fan?) down to 312,980?

I know it's a much bigger country, but compared to the RAF, they've still got it quite good. The RAF would be happy (okay, happier) with 40,000 personnel at this point.

[air pig]

Except JSF, we could put most of the RAF's flying component on three of their large superbases.

[camelspyyder]

Oh yes they are short of people.

For instance, the USAF Reaper force is 300 crews short.

AFAIR FRI's of up to $135000 were offered this year to 6 year served OR's in the Sensor Operator role to sign on again long term.

10 year served Reaper Pilots were offered up to $225000.

[GlobalNav]

Can't believe I've been retired for 20 years now. Probably can't imagine all the changes since then.

[4Greens]

A US Navy Fleet Carrier has a much larger strike force than the whole of the RAF.

[JointShiteFighter]

A US Navy Fleet Carrier has a much larger strike force than the whole of the RAF.

It doesn't.

[smujsmith]

I will go with JSF on this one, any attempt to compare our cash strapped nation to the US would be totally wrong. As our crews extend their area of operations this week, the last thing they need is bloody doom and gloom about the parlous political situation our country is in. The lads will punch their weight and more, it's time we stopped trying to wave willies and gave them our full confidence and support.

Smudge

[JointShiteFighter]

Agreed, Smudge.

I have no reason to doubt that active personnel may be reading PPRuNe from the relative safety of Cyprus in their down time - lets avoid posting anything which may lower morale, please.

[air pig]

Smudge: in the words a long time ago from a USAF pilot to an RAF one. 'if you had our kit we'd still be colonials'. These day I'm sure the USAF would like Typhoon as the F22 like the F35 is far too expensive, Tornado even though it is over 30 years old can still give them a run for its money and lastly Brimstone which is something the USAF/USN would love to have in their weapons kit.

All the very best to those on deployment in all positions and come home safe. I hate posturing politicians from all sides at times.

[Rhino power]

A US Navy Fleet Carrier has a much larger strike force than the whole of the RAF.

Thankyou, funniest thing I've read on the internet today!

-RP

[Courtney Mil]

I remember going to Red Flag back in the day, when it was claimed that the USAF had more fast jets on the ramp, just for the exercise, than the RAF had in total.

[Just This Once...]

A US Navy Fleet Carrier has a much larger strike force than the whole of the RAF.

I'm not sure why this post received such derision. Having visited a USN carrier that had 24 x E/F/Gs and 36 x Cs (12 of which were USMC) embarked, their force elements at readiness (that are capable of strike) looks pretty impressive.

I'm not sure our deployable FE@R for the RAF equivalent assets is in the public domain but we were told by the USN that the above number of Hornets was around 6 more than usual. Still, I am sure we can all imagine how own FE@R compares to the the demonstrable ability to embark 60 F/A-18s.

[Union Jack]

I have no reason to doubt that active personnel may be reading PPRuNe from the relative safety of Cyprus in their down time - lets avoid posting anything which may lower morale, please. -JSF

We, and they, should be really worried if they were truly affected by this, or indeed anything else that they read on this forum. They're made of far sterner stuff.:ok:

Jack

[air pig]

In the words on a T shirt I've just had delivered. 'On the eighth day God created the Royal Air Force and the devil stood to attention.' He damn well would have if he met the College Warrant Officer we had.

[SASless]

Seems a willy to Willy waving contest here where Penis Envy is a malady afflicting the willy wavers.

You only considered the one Carrier not the entire Fleet.

You overlook the lack of any Carrier on your side.

The shame is both Air Forces are a shadow of their former selves and that is regrettable.

How small you can become before losing significance is the question both Air Forces have to consider.

Enemies do not strike because they think you too strong.

[Herod]

Possibly apocryphal, but: USN ship passing RN ship. "How's the world's second biggest navy?" "Fine thanks. How's the world's second best?"

To the guys and gals at Akrotiri. "Go get 'em"

airpig: where did you get that t-shirt?

[West Coast]

Keep in mind as you look at the USAF staffing numbers that many of them have absolutely nothing to do with airplanes but rather are babysitting missiles waiting for that call.

[con-pilot]

Possibly apocryphal, but: USN ship passing RN ship. "How's the world's second biggest navy?" "Fine thanks. How's the world's second best?"

To the guys and gals at Akrotiri. "Go get 'em"

airpig: where did you get that t-shirt?


Quite right, Royal Navy is the world's fourth largest navy*. I don't have a clue how the US Navy ship got that wrong.

Most likely because it never happened. :p


*Behind the US Navy, PRC Navy and the Russian Navy.

[West Coast]

Larger than the French navy? I wonder by tonnage or by counting every dinghy, to include the one on loan to the Iranian navy.

[con-pilot]

Larger than the French navy? I wonder by tonnage or by counting every dinghy, to include the one on loan to the Iranian navy.

It is by tonnage, the PRC Navy actually has more ships.

US-224 vessels

PRC-370 vessels

RN-88 vessels

The French is 7th with 78 vessels

[Bing]

In 1944 it became the second biggest which is when the alleged incident occurred . I know history is a tricky concept for Americans but do try and keep up.

[SASless]

You are counting those that can get underway in that count of 88....right?

I reckon we could sail Old Ironsides across the Pond and challenge you to a bit of iron throwing and sort this "Second Best" thing like sea going Gentlemen.:E

[typerated]

RN was not the biggest well before 1944!


All well and good keeping the colonials on the back foot.


But best to be factually correct!

[dat581]

You are counting those that can get underway in that count of 88....right?

I reckon we could sail Old Ironsides across the Pond and challenge you to a bit of iron throwing and sort this "Second Best" thing like sea going Gentlemen.:E


The RN could just fire up HMS Warrior and they can go at it!

[con-pilot]

In 1944 it became the second biggest which is when the alleged incident occurred . I know history is a tricky concept for Americans but do try and keep up.

Huh, which history do you speak of, the alleged event that never took place or what?

[Bing]

Huh, which history do you speak of, the alleged event that never took place or what?

No, the history where the USN overtook the RN in size. I forget English isn't a strong point for Americans either.

[Bing]

RN was not the biggest well before 1944!


All well and good keeping the colonials on the back foot.


But best to be factually correct!

No one seems to be totally sure but it was probably between 1942 and 1943, the Washington Treaty had kept things in check prior to that. Or at least everyone lied about how big things were...

[Union Jack]

Can't help having a wry smile at how a thread about the state of the US air Force in 2015 has developed into an argument about the relative sizes of the Royal Navy and the US Navy in 1943-44!:rolleyes:

Jack

[air pig]

Indeed Jack, and no comments on the pc attitude of the promotion system. Shows that capability and competence does not count in this day and age.

[Parson]

Never mind the USN, the US Marines have got greater strike capability than we have.

[Junglydaz]

Its a bit harsh to comment on the American's concept of history. They should be really good at it, after all they only have a little over 500 years to remember. ;)

[pr00ne]

parson,

Really? The US Marines have cruise missile armed nuclear submarines and thermonuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missiles?

Didn't know that.

[SASless]

Or at least everyone lied about how big things were...

So what has changed about that?:rolleyes:

[Bevo]

This just in: The UK wins the size contest. However there are no information details on how the data were actually collected. And of course it is posted on the internet so it must be true.

In a world where men think they can lie about their penis size, there exists a magical place called the Internet. And on this Internet, there are people like us who find actual penis size statistics and call those liars out when they're incorrect on being erect. Unless you're unique among your local constituents, there's a good chance our map below on the average erect penis sizes around the world contains the hard evidence that has your wood pegged. You may be surprised (disappointed) by where you land with your fellow man, but just remember that this map only represents size -- and not how you use it. Which Country Has the Biggest Dicks in the World? - Mandatory (http://www.mandatory.com/2015/02/26/which-country-has-the-biggest-dicks-in-the-world/)

[Rosevidney1]

Well, we have Dick Whittington and Dick Turpin.......

[Parson]

pr00ne,

I was talking in terms of aircraft, since the title of this thread includes 'USAF'.

[Union Jack]

Well, we have Dick Whittington and Dick Turpin.......

.....but they have had Dick Cheney and Tricky Dicky Nixon!:(

Jack

[Lonewolf_50]

. Or at least everyone lied about how big things were... Then we're back to talking about fighter pilots again, are we? :E

As a USN sort I originally chose not to comment on the USAF's perceived problems and injustices at this time. But, there's some nonsense afoot. The numbers cited in the article are disingenuous, to say the least. In 1990, for example, the Air Force had more than 535,000 active-duty airmen. A quarter-century later, the Air Force had an end strength of 312,980, a roughly 41 percent decline.
The Cold War levels, at the Height of the Cold War, are not a valid basis of comparison, since we have reduced the base force since then, twice and are in the middle of the third such reduction. Those numbers were from a quarter of a century ago, and we have closed no few bases.

We've also changed, during the Roles and Missions debated of the early 90's, the two wars at a time capability based, and reverted to one major and one minor, and even less than that. In comparison, our Navy, at that time, had 13 active carriers and about 580 ships. We now have two hundred something ships and 11 active carriers (and reduced air wings, etc). We've had an over 50% reduction, but then, It Is No Longer The Cold War!

pr00ne
Really? The US Marines have cruise missile armed nuclear submarines and thermonuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missiles? They may not, but they have a few close associates who do, and who work for the same service chief. (PS: Your point is taken, but it would be more germane if we'd gone back to the kvetching being about aircraft numbers and capability ... )

Dear RAF friends: on the bright side, with a smaller force you can be pickier in the quality of your recruits. (Silver linings to every cloud, yes?)

[Roadster280]

In the words on a T shirt I've just had delivered. 'On the eighth day God created the Royal Air Force and the devil stood to attention.' He damn well would have if he met the College Warrant Officer we had.

Presumably the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service were created in the first seven then?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Lonewolf50 posted: Dear RAF friends: on the bright side, with a smaller force you can be pickier in the quality of your recruits. (Silver linings to every cloud, yes?)

Certainly looked like it on the first Hawk T2 course in 2013 - 4 students graduated - outnumbered by staff and VSOs in the photo !

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/12325/VAL-UNCLASS-20130612-325-049.jpg

By comparison of scale, here's a video for a typical ENJJPT course in the USA - 19 USAF/USANG/USAFR graduates and 2 back coursed - note that one graduate went straight to F-22 school. There were at least 8 courses at ENJJPT alone in FY15 plus those at other locations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Yk-hz6QdA

[SASless]

They certainly do not promote based upon Looks do they?:oh:

[MightyGem]

They've got a good band though.

vniBBT7nRJg

[Wander00]

In the Valley photo, who/what was the guy in the suit?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Wander,

He was the "Station Manager, Ascent Flight Training, RAF Valley". See 2:37 in this video explaining the new Hawk T2 based training system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtf9tT2nM3I

He is now the Operations Director at Ascent: http://www.ascentflighttraining.net/index.php/people/profile/alasdair_shinner

and the Valley post was advertised last year: http://www.ex-militarycareers.com/job/ascent-general-manager-raf-valley-316945.htm .

[BEagle]

Wander00 asked: In the Valley photo, who/what was the guy in the suit?

See the Ascent website: Alasdair Shinner | Ascent Flight Training (http://www.ascentflighttraining.net/index.php/people/profile/alasdair_shinner)

[Union Jack]

They've got a good band though.

They certainly have, perhaps not too surprisingly since every one seems to be a sergeant of some sort, except the full Colonel of course.:ok:

Jack

[Wander00]

Thanks Beags, just interested




W

[Bevo]

They've got a good band though.

They certainly have, perhaps not too surprisingly since every one seems to be a sergeant of some sort, except the full Colonel of course.:ok:

Jack

Yes - they pay to keep the talent.
AUDITIONS AND USAF BAND CAREER INFORMATION

How much is the salary and other allowances?
Basic Pay: After you complete basic training and arrive at The United States Air Force Band, you are awarded the rank of Technical Sergeant (E-6 pay grade) and will earn $2380.80 per month in basic military pay. Your pay will increase with tenure and promotions, and you will receive annual pay raises to reflect the increase in cost-of-living.

In addition to basic pay, the Air Force offers non-taxable housing and food allowances to help cover your living expenses.

Housing Allowance: For members living off base, an allowance (known as "Basic Allowance for Housing") is provided to defray the cost of housing in the Washington, D.C. area. This allowance is based on your rank and on whether or not you are providing support for dependents, such as children living with you or a spouse. For members assigned to Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling, BAH rates for E-6 (TSgt) with dependents is $2,439.00/month or without dependents $1,914.00/month, provided as non-taxable income. Although most members of The Air Force Band live off base, a limited supply of on-base housing is available. (Availability varies, and in most cases, you must sign up on a waiting list for housing.) For on-base residents, housing expenses, including rent, utility bills and maintenance are paid in full in lieu of the housing allowance.

Food Allowance: The Air Force provides a food allowance (known as "Basic Allowance for Subsistence") of up to $357.55 per month.

Total Pay: With basic pay and the housing and food allowance, a Technical Sergeant with dependents, living off-base, will earn $62,128.20 annually, of which $33,558.60 is tax-free. A Technical Sergeant without dependents, living off base, will earn $55,828.20 annually, of which $27,258.60 is tax-free.

Uniform Allowance: You receive an annual tax-free clothing allowance to replace uniform items.

[Union Jack]

Thank you, Bevo - much appreciated.:ok:

Jack

[str12]

I read somewhere that circa 1912 the USN put one more hull in the water and the US Secretary of the Navy (or similar) immediately sent the First Sea Lord a telegram asking "How this the second biggest navy doing..." but a Google search found this:

Bibliographic information

Title From the Sublime to the Ridiculous
Author Brian(bill) Haley Bem
Publisher Trafford Publishing, 2011
ISBN 1426995768, 9781426995767
Length 272 pages

From page 102:

'I vividly remember being questioned by an American sailor, who asked "How is the second biggest navy in the World" my instance reply was "Not too bad, how is the second best" Which provoked an argument that should not have occurred. '

The Royal Navy was either the biggest and / or best for something like 400 years and probably why we speak English and why all modern navies, including the USN, are modeled on it. The USN is now the biggest and, if your metric for 'best' is naval power, then undoubtedly the USN is the best. Doubt it will be for 400 years though ;)

[camelspyyder]

That grad photo irritated the **** out of me at the time.

The most important people at any graduation are the students, so why the hell are they they hidden at the back behind what looks like an excessive amount of brass?

[West Coast]

How long must one spend in the military to receive a pension? The bio for Mr Shinner indicates he spent 18 in the RAF?

Short of an early buymout offer or a medical issue, is 18 years service enough to get a monthly check?

[Just This Once...]

Yes, as an officer on that particular pension scheme he would need 16 years of service after age 21 to be awarded an immediate non-indexed linked monthly pension. Later schemes moved this to 18 then 20 years, albeit without the age 21 limitation.

[West Coast]

Yes, as an officer on that particular pension scheme he would need 16 years of service after age 21 to be awarded an immediate non-indexed linked monthly pension. Later schemes moved this to 18 then 20 years, albeit without the age 21 limitation.

Understood, thank you.