Fact or Fiction

[CoffmanStarter]

I was asked a question recently where I thought I knew the answer ... but wondered if what I remembered was 'Fact or Fiction' ;)

RAF Aircrew Flying Time has been logged for some considerable time based on the convention of 'Wheels Off (Airborne)' to 'Wheels On (Landed)'. I assume RN and Army Aircrew follow the same convention. This approach is at odds with the Civil Aviation world who log 'Chock (Brakes Off) to Chock (Brakes On)'. This topic has been covered before on PPRuNe in terms of Mil 'Hours Accreditation' for Civilian Licences and allowances available etc.

But what was the original reasoning behind the Mil 'Wheels Off' to 'Wheels On' policy ?

The explanation I vaguely remember was linked with the measures taken during the UK Energy Crisis in late 1973. At the time I believe all nonessential Mil flying was curtailed along with the introduction of the Hours Logging Policy mentioned above ... all to 'demonstrate' the UK Armed Forces were doing their bit ... albeit the 'Three Day Week' was yet to come (Dec 73).

I may have got this completely wrong ... but just wanted to check my understanding :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

PS. I bet it would have been a bit embarrassing to reverse the policy once the Energy Crisis passed ... hence the policy still remains today ...

[Tankertrashnav]

Memories fade but I am pretty sure the wheels off/wheels on timing predates the 1973 fuel crisis. My own flying started in 1969, and I think we always used that system for logging hours in the RAF. I'm sure older members will confirm this (or correct me if I am wrong).

All I remember about 1973 is that we were all getting excited about getting 2 days buckshee leave a week, as the rumour went about that we wouldnt be expected to come in.

Never happened, of course:(

[oxenos]

Certainly pre-dates '73. It was thus when I joined, but I am a youngster ( joined '60)
Ask Danny42C

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, wheels off in 61 when I was trained. Landing, taxying, and taking off again counted as airborne.

Only time when I wasn't happy with logging was with the great John Elias. We actually shut down, deplaned, and had a picnic lunch outside the sheds at Bitteswell. As he didn't sign off the 700, or do a TR, he declared the whole as flying.

There was an occasion, around 1963, Vulcan went in to Fairford and illegally made several joy rides with KC135 crew. The AEO sent regular ops normals. Finally they ran out of door air and had to get outside assistance to close the door. On RTB they would not have been able to blow it open. The captain, whose name escapes me, became a 2*.

[nipva]

Definitely take-off to touchdown throughout my time starting in 1965 but I seem to recall that the Hercules force worked chocks-to-chocks or am I wrong?

Back in WWII weren't there occasions of Catalina crews logging some extraordinary sortie lengths when they included 'down' time at sea?

[NutherA2]

To continue the "Dutch Auction" of year numbers, my RAF flying training started in 1954 and wheels off to wheels on was certainly the rule then. Some time after leaving the service I took advantage of ANO Article 93, sub-para 3 and added 10 minutes "taxy" time for each of my military flights, so gaining some 470 hours. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Nuther, if it had been chocks I think many of us would have clocked more than that. Allthe time on exercises when we taxied then held before scramble, or joined the conga line after landing.

[Shackman]

PN - Was that when we were picking up a resparred ac?

It was not an uncommon practice in maritime - stories abounded in FEAF of Sunderlands picking up families and going up country for 'swimming parties' and sending out 'ops normals' every hour, whilst I was introduced to the practice on what was laughingly called a LROFE (Long range operational flying exercise) on one of my first sorties on 205. We went to Labuan, shut down and had lunch in the pax terminal and picked up a load of duty free, all the time the siggie returning to the ac and sending the ops normal on schedule, before returning to Changi at the appointed landing time. The only real work was done by the nav who had to produce an air plot covering the whole (12 hour) sortie!

(I was also introduced to the technique of a windmill start when the starter motor failed on one engine - roaring down the runway on three and at about 80kts 'unfeathering' the prop. And it worked!).

And yes, it was always take off (or lift off) to landing.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shackman, no, we didnt swap aircraft which would have been a trick. Can't remember why we went there. What happened next though was the Pan call following an oil leak, a diversion by LonMil to Wittering and after ATC confirmed we did not have uniform and would not be allowed in the mess we went to Cottesmore.

Even then our caring sharing air force had its rules.

The Vulcan time was when the crew visited the KC135 crews that they had previously met at Goose.

[BEagle]

nutherA2 wrote: Some time after leaving the service I took advantage of ANO Article 93, sub-para 3 and added 10 minutes "taxy" time for each of my military flights.

Of course for the Jaguar, a mere 10 minutes from brakes-off to airborne would be rather optimistic.....:hmm:

[Mogwi]

Fast asleep to off the ski-jump in less than 3 minutes was pretty much standard darn Sarf.

[binbrook]

Nuther A2 - smart thinking! Anyone out there know what QR&ACIs (and KR&ACIs) said on the subject?

[London Eye]

Fly what you want, log what you need ;)

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Gents ... :ok:

So the 'Time Keeping' protocol pre-dates the 'Dark Days' of 1973.

Does anyone else have a similar 'Fact or Fiction' topic to share/debate ;)

[Herod]

I seem to recall that the Hercules force worked chocks-to-chocks or am I wrong?

I was on Hercules '73 to '75, and it was airborne to landing. IIRC when approaching the CAA for licence validation, the allowance was your military time +5%.

[Arty Fufkin]

Is logging t/o to ldg an example of the military being different for the sake of it or just no one has got around to making the change. Can't be that difficult to implement. Perhaps it's time to align with the rest of the world, after all, why not? It would save all that messy fixed time additions or running 2 logbooks in parallel as some people do.

[Dougie M]

I started training in Valettas and Varsities in 1964 and log books were wheels off to wheels on to the nearest 5 mins. Years later on Ex Crosscheck in Canada I flew with a crew much younger than me on C130s with nearly twice my flying hours because of their chock to chock timing policy and all engines running time on intermediate stops in between. Think of all those taxy scramble hours

[Shackman]

Sorry PN - I meant did you drop us off?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Is logging t/o to ldg an example of the military being different for the sake of it or just no one has got around to making the change


Given that the mil system seems more logical (ie the logged flight time more accurately reflects how long the aircraft spent flying), maybe it's the civvies who should change :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Shackman, I don't think so. We had the same load of SLF in and out.

[Brian 48nav]

Like you started in '65 - Herc' 67-73 and we only logged take off to landing.

[BEagle]

ME pilots will probably remember those 'arrival messages' we had to send to Artichoke:

"Ascot 9999 departed EGVN at 0850/0900, arrived ZZZZ at 1300/1310" etc? For my civvy logbook, I would record the 0850 and 1310 times and for my military logbook, the 0900 and 1300 times.

Which was about the only worthwhile purpose for those messages!

[KenV]

In my days in USN: "You fly what you can. You log what you need."

[Biggus]

KenV,

See post 13.....

[KenV]

Missed that. Looks like USN was not unique that way.

[CoffmanStarter]

As a slight aside ... I knew many years ago a Lt. Cdr. RN who had a good 'Five Digits' Total Time, but in one of his Annual Summaries in his Log Book he declared a total of XX,XXX Hrs. 75 Mins. :ok:

A great chap who flew during the final stages of WWII and continued into the 50's flying the Fairey Firefly.

[KenV]

Two more points to add to this fact or fiction:

1. It seems to me that the mil way of logging time has been around longer than the commercial way of logging time.

2. The commercial way of logging time might be related to how commercial pilots (and other aircrew) get paid. Many (most?) are paid by the hour (I certainly was.) The commercial pilot is "on the clock" from chocks out to chocks in, so that's how its logged. Some airlines pay from "door closed" to "door open" (referring to the main cabin door) which corresponds pretty closely with chocks out to chocks in. That way if there are taxi delays or takeoff delays, the crew gets paid for the entire time the chocks were out.

This is also why, when the weather closes down an airport after the plane has pushed back, the crew avoids going back to the gate and make the passengers wait in the aircraft for hours and hours rather than waiting in the terminal. The flight crew gets paid for waiting in the aircraft, and not for waiting in the terminal.

[tqmatch]

Might the difference also be down to items such as Hobbs meters fitted to Civ a/c to record hours, which will pretty much co-incide with chock's out to chock's in?

[BEagle]

As far as EASA-land is concerned, the definition of flight time is stated in Regulation (EU) 1178/2011:

"Flight time":

for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

for helicopters, it means the total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;

for airships, it means the total time from the moment an airship is released from the mast for the purpose of taking off until the moment the airship finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and is secured on the mast;

for sailplanes, it means the total time from the moment the sailplane commences the ground run in the process of taking off until the moment the sailplane finally comes to a rest at the end of flight;

for balloons, it means the total time from the moment the basket leaves the ground for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to a rest at the end of the flight.

The flight crew is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants whenever the aircraft is in motion. It is a mystery to me why, in the current risk-averse era, the military does not share this view and record flight time in the same manner. differently.

[Arty Fufkin]

I have to say, I can't see much point in being different. I've had plenty of trips where the easiest and least stressful part was the bit that lay between the take off and the landing.
I've never been very good at taxiing though..........

[Pontius Navigator]

Where is/was it laid down what time to enter?

I know it said aircrew in flying appointments are to complete a monthly summary. Did that also specify times?

The other oddity in annual reports was only to record time on type and not breakdown in types. I suspect little difference for a pilot on Nimrod 1or 2 but a whole different ball game for a Mk 2.

On a Vulcan they were both very different, 1, 1a, 2, 2 BS.

Was this a hang over from the earlier types where the changes were minor?

[Danny42C]

oxenos (your #3),
Certainly pre-dates '73. It was thus when I joined, but I am a youngster (joined '60)
Ask Danny42C
Always chock-to-chock. (Have a taxying accident, and you'll soon find whether you were flying or not !)

Danny.

[oxenos]

So Danny was logging chock to chock during the war, and by '60 we were logging take-off to landing. When between '45 and '60 did it change?

[Pontius Navigator]

So, chock to chock on a QRA readiness, or a taxi-scramble, or a runway abort.

[smujsmith]

If we have a vote, I'll go with Danny. As a GE all my planning was based on a chocks time. That being the case I would have thought that that was the appropriate point for the "gentlemen up front" to commence their stopwatches. Me? I only logged hours in my GE hammock, it started immediately after my AA breakfast, in the climb out.

Smudge:ok:

[Danny42C]

oxenos,


So Danny was logging chock to chock during the war, and by '60 we were logging take-off to landing. When between '45 and '60 did it change?,,


I was grounded in '54, but we were all choc-to-chocking till then. Mind you, on a s/e sqdn, there was never much taxying, we just jotted a rough time in our log books, Flight Commanders never questioned it, but signed willy-nilly at the end of the month.

They were more happy-go-lucky days then. Danny.

[CoffmanStarter]

Crikey ... I didn't think that such a seemingly trivial question would prompt so many responses ;)

PN ...

Where is/was it laid down what time to enter ?

To answer your question as far as I'm able ... I'm sure that JSP318 (MOD Flying Orders) would have mandated the protocol. I don't believe that doc exists today and has been superseded by MAA Regulations ... which appear to allow Public Access.

MAA Regulatory Article 2401 (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/350176/RA2401.pdf)

Regulation 2041 (3) : Para 14 excerpt ...

Calculation of Flying Times. Flying times will normally be calculated from the time of take-off to the time of landing. When undertaking circuits and landings, the flying times will be reckoned as the time from the initial take-off to the final landing. For the purposes of recording night flying, 'night' is defined as the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight.

There's a lot of other 'fun stuff' on the above URL ... if you're interested :uhoh:

So ... With Danny's input ... something caused a change in protocol between '54 to '60.

Pure speculation on my behalf ... Could it have been something to do with Engineering ? Only accounting for Hours under Flight Loads prior to Fatigue Meters ?

Interesting ...

Coff.

[PapaDolmio]

Or on a certain GR4 Sqn a few years ago with an ambitious Sqn Cdr.

Round up/down 10 minutes instead of 5 to ensure that the Sqn met it's monthly CFT figures!

[Reverserbucket]

This is very interesting. Apologies for the slight thread creep but in the UK civilian training industry, whilst engaged in training for professional licences at least, the CAA allowed takeoff to landing plus 15 mins in my day, however these days the greater proportion of training for UK issued EASA integrated CPL/IR's is conducted in the U.S.A where the practice is to log Hobbs (effectively engine start to shutdown). I've seen cases where students end up logging a 1 hour sortie of which 45 mins was spent on the ground - and this on a course of training costing the student around £100K!

Is it the case now that EASA allow the total chocks-off/on time to be logged for training as well? I always felt the CAA approach was fair and quite sensible in limiting the amount of taxy time that could be credited towards each lesson but couldn't understand why the apparent shortfall in actual flying time was never commented on during the annual audit inspections at the various UK approved fairweather facilities I spent time at in the U.S. In principal, cadets were being seriously shortchanged at some of the airports we were based at, where significant taxying was required for every sortie and where you were frequently held for instrument inbounds etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, of course when i started, and Danny too I imagine, it was AMFO, a pleasing slim volume on Quatto format.

[Chugalug2]

PN:-
The other oddity in annual reports was only to record time on type and not breakdown in types. I suspect little difference for a pilot on Nimrod 1or 2 but a whole different ball game for a Mk 2.Not sure if I quite understand what you are saying Pontius, but the blurb in the front of my first RAF Form 414 (Pilots Flying Log Book) stated (I summarise) that Annual Summaries were to be made up in major sub-divisions, ie JET, TURBO PROP, PISTON, HELICOPTERS, with aircraft types shown under each sub-division. Beneath that is an example summary showing:

JET
Vulcan 1
Vulcan 2
PISTON
Anson Mk 21
with sample times against each type with Totalled Columns at the bottom, all done of course in red ink.

It is only now, having inspected my own summaries that I see that my first summary stuck strictly to the prescribed pattern, with separate entries for Jet Provost T Mk3 and T Mk4. Subsequent years though showed Hastings 1 and 2 (where the 1 was in fact a Mk1A!) entered as one type, in flagrant breach of the instructions. I suspect that others would have erred as I did. Fortunately the RAF only possessed one C Mark of the Hercules during my time, so that I slid back effortlessly into proper compliance...

As to the recording of Flying Time, it was always Take Off to Landing in my time (first/last flights 1960/1973).

[Pontius Navigator]

Chug, my original 1767 (1960) required simply day/night single engine or multi. The later ones, 1968,1971 and 1986 indeed specified each mark viz Shackleton Mk 3 and Shackleton T4.

No, my point was that the 1369 specified just Shackleton for instance, and surely the Air Sec, as was, should have been more interested on the employment options as stated by hours per type rather than the more professional 5200 series with individual mark breakdown.

[Chugalug2]

Sorry PN, I should know better by now not to proffer an answer to a question set by a nav that involved numbers! :O

[tartare]

PN - you mentioned door air in your earlier story.
Tried googling with no luck.
Did the Vulcan have some sort of pressure system separate from hydraulics to open the crew access door... or am I totally misinterpreting things?!

[Pontius Navigator]

tartare, indeed. The door jacks were operated using high pressure air. There was a metal lid that gave access to a T-handle, pull this and the door would close. It was not unusual for the crew chief to give it a heave. Near this was a handle with black/yellow knob. Pulling this would unlatch the door and it would drop open under gravity. Pull it through the detent and it would be blown open against the air flow for abandonment.

A later mod provided a switch at the plotter's station to do the same thing. The plotter had a fixed seat and had to egress after the radar or AEO had swiveled their seats.

[Alan Mills]

When I was on the LROFE trips to Labuan, we used to land there, kick a couple of Siggies out, and while they went off for the duty free, the a/c would do circuits, after an agreed time the a/c would land and pick the Siggies and booze up, and we would return to Changi. The flight time was then logged as chock to chock from Changi, even for the 2 Siggies.

[StickMonkey3]

Or on a certain GR4 Sqn a few years ago with an ambitious Sqn Cdr.

..erm, I'm quite sure my Quarterly Summaries, produced as Squadron stats officer, qualified me for a prize as "Most Outstanding Work of Fiction", and my Boss wasn't the least bit ambitious. We had a more extensive range of pencil sharpnesses on the Ops Desk than the local Artists' Suppliers had.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stick, distressing to stats, after one 6-monthly return of stats, where the sqn average for lay down attacks was within the highest theoretical accuracy of bbc system and scoring, I informed HQ NEAF that I would cease reporting that stat.
Receiving no reply, I duly ceased reporting and received no further reply.