SU-24 Self Defence capability?

[Madbob]

Like everyone reading about the Turkish F-16 shooting down a Russian Su24 I am concerned about the ramifications and shocked by the barbaric treatment of the unfortunate crew. The reason for starting this thread is to postulate what self-defence capability does a Su24 have in the way of RWR, towed decoys, jamming, flares and chaff that could defeat an AAM in the AIM 9, AMRAAM, ASRAAM class?


Surely the crew would have had some on-board warning and failing that, with them flying at 19,000 ft, wouldn't a ground based radar controller not have tipped them off about a couple of Turkish fighters shaping up for an engagement? A sharp break to the south at any point would have kept then safe.......


May the two crew RIP.


MB

[AreOut]

they didn't expect it, that's the main problem

and if they did they wouldn't go there without fighter escort in the first place

[Lonewolf_50]

they didn't expect it, that's the main problem

and if they did they wouldn't go there without fighter escort in the first place Got it in one.

[Courtney Mil]

I hadn't really paid much attention to the model, but assuming Fencer D; the following may well have been taken in Syria (too big for PPRuNe hence just a link) and shows some of its self-protection kit:

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SU-24-1.jpg

Antennas on fin are RWR with internal ECM, chaff and flare. However, this kit is mainly optimised for low level since the B model; the moving ramps became fixed, reducing max speed at altitude from over M2 to around M1.3 making them more vulnerable at medium level. In terms of technology it's an old design, but has been developed and upgraded so it's no slouch.

[Kitbag]

Slight drift here, I've seen 'BBC POCCИИ' on quite a few pics, does anyone know the translation?

[AreOut]

Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily Rossii

Russian military airforce

[Kitbag]

Ahh, the equivalent of http://www.raf.mod.uk/images/logoRAF.gif

[LowObservable]

VVS Russia = Russian Air Force

[AreOut]

it's interesting that (as a russian speaker) I got asked from Brits several times do they really have BBC as a sponsor...

[unmanned_droid]

A little reading around shows the chaff/flare dispensers to be the white areas on the top of the fuselage towards the front of the horizontal stabiliser, there's one each side.

I went looking because I was sure I had seen chaff/flare dispensers scabbed on to the fuselage on some, and that is correct, there are variants with chaff/flare dispensers built on to the back of the aft upper fuselage air intakes, and they cover the internal positions.

Will the crew have been flying around that area with constant chiming from the RWR receiver not letting them forget they were being looked at by various radars in various modes? I wonder if it can all be muted...

In my opinion, it's disappointing that shooting down the aircraft was the recourse chosen from what the Turkish say was a total of 17 seconds over their territory.

[SASless]

Russians do not take lightly to violations of their airspace as i recall.....KAL 007 for example!

[jolihokistix]

According to this article, it was the second of two Su24s.


Quote:
"Turkey said its fighter pilots acted after two Russian Su-24 bombers ignored numerous warnings that they were nearing and then entering Turkish airspace. In a letter to the U.N. Security Council and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Turkey said the Russian warplanes violated its airspace “to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles ... for 17 seconds” just after 9:24 a.m.
It said one of the planes then left Turkish airspace and the other one was fired at by Turkish F-16s “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and crashed on the Syrian side of the border."


Turkey says Russian jet violated its airspace, ignored repeated warnings ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion (http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/turkey-says-russian-jet-violated-its-airspace-ignored-repeated-warnings)

[chevvron]

Russians do not take lightly to violations of their airspace as i recall.....KAL 007 for example!

Way back about 1960 +/-, a C130 flying along the border between (I think) Turkey and the USSR was shot down too.

[TowerDog]

And KAL 902 was shot down by the USSR in 1978 after straying into their airspace, a B-707. :sad:

[ORAC]

The area in question is a hot combat zone where the Turks have engaged Syrian helicopters transgressing the border, if you want to compare it to another area then consider Eastern Ukraine - and the number of combat aircraft **** down by both sides in the last couple of years. The Russians were complacent and should have known better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_losses_during_the_Ukrainian_crisi s

Ukrainian troops shot down one of the four attacking SU-25 (http://www.mnogovbloge.com/?p=9969&lang=en)

[Courtney Mil]

I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up on yet. According to BBC Newsnight last night, although the aircraft probably did fly through a couple of kilometres of Turkish airspace, it was actually hit after it had left. Probably too far outside the border to account for time of flight of the missile. In the screenshot image below the aircraft was hit at the position marked 9:24. They reported that it was a Sidewinder.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/Courtneyon/image_zpskruiaela.jpeg

[ORAC]

With the reported width of the Turkish salient, I'm guessing each of those squares is 5km a side? Backtrack the flight path of both jets and see how close they get with what geometry, and then the launch point and missile trajectory.

I make it about 15nm to 20nm launch range, which makes it iffy for Sidewinder, and for the intercept point it would have had to fly and even greater range curve of pursuit. Looks like an extreme range shot and a lucky kill, but I'm 20 years out of date, and as a controller not a QWI.

Anyone qualified want to work it out?

p.s. I also find it strange the F16 didn't turn to keep the SU-24 on his nose, or was he tracking the second aircraft? From that point and heading he'd have to do a tight starboard turn to stay in Turkish airspace himself.

[Courtney Mil]

A lot more than iffy for a sidewinder. Even at 20,000' it doesn't come close to being inside Turkey at mx launch.

Just realised, I posted this on the wrong thread. I'll add it to the Su 24 shoot down thread. Sorry.

[BEagle]

I'm not sure whether the entire track of the intercepting F-16 has been shown on that map.

Nevertheless, the reported firing distance and geometry look rather extreme for a Sidewinder shot, assuming that it was actually fired from inside Turkish airspace....

Personally, I suspect that the missile used was an AIM-120, probably fired BVR....:uhoh:

[ORAC]

Looks like an AMRRAM shot, not sidewinder. Check their last engagement in the area...... (http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/08/turkish-f-16-sports-mig-23-kill-markings/)

"Along with the F-16C that downed a Syrian Mi-17 Hip helicopter back in 2013, another interesting plane can be found at Konya airbase, in Turkey, where Tiger Meet 2015 exercise is currently being held.

It is the F-16C serialled 91-008, belonging to the 182 Filo (squadron), that shot down a Syrian Arab Air Force Mig-23 Flogger on Mar. 23, 2014.

On that day, the SyAAF Mig-23, flying with another aircraft of the same type, approached the Turkish-Syrian border at around 13.00 LT. While one of the Floggers turned back, the other aircraft violated the Turkish airspace by about 1 km, at 13.13LT. It then continued to fly inside Turkey’s airspace for about 1.5 km until it was hit by an AIM-120 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) fired by the F-16C 91-008 in Combat Air Patrol near the border."

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mig-kill-TuAF-F-16-close-up-706x559.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

How does the SU-24 compare with a Tornado IDS?

[Buster15]

There is a lot of very useful information about this aircraft in Wiki. it is significantly bigger than Tornado, but has lots of design similarities. First flew at about the same time, 1974 and has swing wing, 2 man crew and twin engines. It may have similarities with the old GR1, but I strongly doubt it has anything like the capability of the GR4.

[ORAC]

Better comparison (http://www.kamov.net/versus/f-111-vs-su-24/) in size and role is to the F-111.

[KenV]

How does the SU-24 compare with a Tornado IDS? The Su-24 is larger than the Tornado. The Sukhoi is more similar to the F-111 than the Tornado, right down to the side by side seating. As for combat systems, the latest Su-24M (Fencer-D and subsequent) has lots of modern defensive and offensive combat systems including helmet mounted sighting systems and is roughly comparable to the Tornado GR4. The M models are usually fitted with R-60 Aphids for self defense, and are capable of carrying and firing the high off boresight R-73 Archers. I don't think the Tornado GR4s ever got off bore sight AIM-9X or equivalent, but I'm not sure about that.

[Courtney Mil]

Well answered, ORAC.

Buster, it was also built as a F-111 rip-off and designed for similar capabilities. It has since been very effectively upgraded to bring it GR1 class capabilities and included TFR.

It's a somewhat underestimated piece of kit, but I would still choose a GR4 any day.

Edit: I see you beat me to it, KenV. Good answer too. GR4 can carry AIM-9 or AIM-132.

[KenV]

GR4 can carry AIM-9 or AIM-132.

Understood. But my question is can Tornado carry off-boresight AIM-9X and does the pilot have a helmet mounted sight to make use of the off-boresight capability of the weapon? The latest Su-24Ms do.

[Just This Once...]

AIM-132 can be operated off-boresight; it has the same seeker as the 9X but it is a much bigger stick and goes a heck of a long way.

[KenV]

I'm not asking about the missile's capability. I'm asking about the ability of the Tornado to carry that (specific version) of the misslie, including having a helmet mounted site/cuing system to make use of the off bore sight capability of the missile. Without a helmet mounted sight/cuing system, the missile's off bore sight capability cannot be used.

[Rhino power]

KenV, yes the GR.4 can carry the ASRAAM, no it can't take a HOBS shot with it as GR.4 crews don't have the necessary hat, which is only available to Typhoon crew I believe...

-RP

[Just This Once...]

http://www.themanufacturer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/049-Tornado-Helmet-Mounted-Cueing-System.jpg

Tornado HMCS.

[glad rag]

And that's just the Air Display Variant; wait 'till you see the Night Bomber version...

:E

Barnes would have been proud.

[Rhino power]

http://www.themanufacturer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/049-Tornado-Helmet-Mounted-Cueing-System.jpg

Tornado HMCS.

Which the GR.4 crews currently still don't have then?

U.K. Wants Helmet-Mounted Cueing System For Tornado | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/uk-wants-helmet-mounted-cueing-system-tornado)

-RP

[Harley Quinn]

RP, some of the comments below that article seem to indicate Tornado has had a Helmet Mounted Sight system for sometime, maybe it looks just like the thing JTO posted?

[Just This Once...]

Pardon?

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/24843/20140331-AUAB_UNC_20140224_012_197.jpg

Admittedly the photo is from the last conflict, but you get the idea.

[Stitchbitch]

HMCS? Bit of a grand name for ex-Jag and Harrier kit, good to see the Gr.4 crews getting some use out of it. The Russians had something similar operational from the early days of SU-27. :ok:

[Madbob]

Thanks for the feedback to my original question. Given the kit that the Russian crew probably had on board why did it not give them enough situational awareness to avoid the threat of a TuAF F-16 attack?


The wx was gin clear, CAVOK and surely the Russians/Syrians must have been keeping a track of them on a ground-based radar and so able to warn the Su24 crews "to get the hell out".


Was it complacency/over-confidence on the Russian's part not to expect the TuAF to fire?


MB

[Just This Once...]

I'd guess that the radar warning kit is probably sub-optimal compared to a modern AI radar & AMRAAM.

One thing is for certain is when you are the 5th aircraft to be shot-down in the recent airspace disputes between Syria and Turkey (RF-4, Mi-17, MiG-23, Orian 10, Su-24) you cannot claim to be surprised!

[mickjoebill]

Is it typical that the aircraft did not breakup after being hit by a missle?

Mickjoebill

[AreOut]

Was it complacency/over-confidence on the Russian's part not to expect the TuAF to fire?

yupp they didn't expect it at all, it was just a routine mission they did several times before and turkey was considered a partner, not anymore though

[Just This Once...]

So the repeated diplomatic warnings, the summoning of the Russian Ambassador, the warnings printed in the international press and the shooting down of the other aircraft wasn't enough?

Are they stupid, arrogant or both?

[AreOut]

turkish planes were allowed to cross into syrian airspace to bomb Kurds although Russians had the right not to allow them

they certainly didn't think a minor violation of turkish airspace would cause a shooting

mind you it would be totally different if the missile hit the plane while it was in turkish airspace and/or the plane went down there(as I think was the turkish plan), but according to even turkish ministry it was hit in syrian airspace, huge difference

they gave casus belli to Russians now so they can shoot down any turkish plane that just comes near the border and say "you did the same"

[Rhino power]

Pardon?

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/24843/20140331-AUAB_UNC_20140224_012_197.jpg

Admittedly the photo is from the last conflict, but you get the idea.

I stand corrected! :ok:

-RP

[RAFEngO74to09]

HMCS was requested as an UOR for Tornado GR4 in April 2011.

BAE Systems to Provide HMCS for RAF Tornado Gr4s (http://www.deagel.com/news/BAE-Systems-to-Provide-HMCS-for-RAF-Tornado-Gr4s_n000008633.aspx)

HMCS was first delivered as an UOR for Tornado GR4 in April 2012.

Tornado Gr4 Deployed in Afghanistan Field HMCS Helmet-Mounted Display System (http://www.deagel.com/news/Tornado-Gr4-Deployed-in-Afghanistan-Field-HMCS-Helmet-Mounted-Display-System_n000010154.aspx)

The request for tender for embodiment on the entire Tornado GR4 fleet by November 2016 was put out in June 2015. The specification requires:

- Full integration with current Tornado AES and Mk 10 helmets.

- Full interoperability with the current weapons cleared on Tornado GR4/4A including ASRAAM.

- Full compatibility with current, in-service NVG capabilities.

- Full interoperability with current aircraft sensors and have full functionality with the current Tornado HOTAS system.

- A day/night capability.

- No new restrictions to the current Tornado GR4/4A flight envelope.

Public tender Bristol 2015 Design and Embodiment of a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS) for use on the Tornado GR4/4A Fleet. 2015-06-17 (http://england.unitedkingdom-tenders.co.uk/85083_Design_and_Embodiment_of_a_Helmet_Mounted_Cueing_Syste m_HMCS_for_use_on_the_Tornado_GR44A_2015_Bristol)

[Kitbag]

Have I got this story right? A UOR was issued in 2011 worth £8m to BAE to design, supply and install a system. Job done in a year or so, well done BAE. Under the UOR system though there is no in service support, so we now have to go through a tendering cycle. Just who is likely to win this contract? Why not just award the follow on to the system designers now there is a need to sustain/support it?

[GlobalNav]

"So the repeated diplomatic warnings, the summoning of the Russian Ambassador, the warnings printed in the international press and the shooting down of the other aircraft wasn't enough?

Are they stupid, arrogant or both"

Neither. More like cunning and calculated. Justification for huge escalation of the Bear's footprint, with consequences for much more than Syrian airspace. NATO will need a very careful, but powerful stance, or this could get uglier very soon. With this move, Russia has threatened free world allies in the region.

[AreOut]

I doubt this was intentional move by Russia, if it was they wouldn't breach the airspace for only couple of seconds.

[Royalistflyer]

Colonel Oleg Pechkov was the Russian pilot killed.

[Rhino power]

Thanks for posting the additional info re: GR.4 HMCS, RAFEngO.

-RP

[RAFEngO74to09]

Kitbag,

I assume that the HMCS UOR in April 2011 was for a limited number of systems sufficient for the in-theatre Tornado GR4 Det that was then delivered in April 2012 - to 617 Sqn at the time.

The tender issued in July 2015 was for rollout, embodiment and through-life support on the entire fleet to the OSD. Although I have no experience of tendering, I would imagine the methodology has something to do with EU competitive tendering rules - see this in my previous link:

"Advertising Regime OJEU: This contract opportunity is published in the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU)...".