Breaking news on Sky.....

[edwardspannerhands]

Turkish Government says an aircraft has been shot down on the Turkish / Syrian border after violating Turkish Airspace.


No mention of which type or from which nation.

[Kitbag]

Thread on R&N suggesting Russian Su 24

[TBM-Legend]

Looks like a turkey shoot!

Turkish F-16 fighter jets shoot down jet of unknown origin near Syrian border - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syrian-border/6970776)

[megan]

s9xhOkQf8JU

[CoffmanStarter]

Video here ...

Turkish News Agency Video (http://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/bayirbucak-bolgesinde-savas-ucagi-dustu/480268)

http://www.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2015/11/24/thumbs_b_c_88c196ba64059b7153c7c845a0e92530.jpg

Image & Video Credit : The Turkish News Agency

[AnglianAV8R]

Crew ejected, no info on their situation. Turkey claims shoot down by F16 after warnings given over radio. Russian MOD saying the aircraft was brought down by a ground based system. Wreckage has come down in Syria.

Edit: Russian MOD insists the aircraft did not violate Turkish airspace and they have "mission data to prove that"

[FleurDeLys]

Things just got a whole lot hotter, I fear

[Uncle Ginsters]

BBC now saying one 'pilot' now in the hands of a Syrian 'opposition group'...footage shows wreckage and one chute landing on a wooded hillside.

[Bigpants]

Not a smart move, Putin might react in any number of ways that could hurt and escalation another worrying possibility.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Surely the Turks realise that the Russians have no reason to penetrate their airspace, accidently or otherwise, other than to bomb IS.

All the more reason for coordinating the air strikes between the anti-IS 'allies'.

[It's Life Jim 208]

Oh dear this could get messy, the Turks will also have data. Russians have got used to violating/infringing other folks' airspace recently, it was always going to end in tears! AJ News have just said that the Russian Foreign Minister is due in Turkey for gas Suppliws meeting, I bet it will get hot!

[OldnDaft]

Turkey have been increasingly frustrated by Russian bombing of Turkmen areas around Syria/Turkey border, this is perhaps a response after repeated requests to stop.

[Bigpants]

They may be angry about Russian targeting of Turkoman areas but the Turks have been bombing the Kurds because they hate the idea of a Kurdish State...

The whole thing is a complicated mess.

[Eclectic]

The ejected pilot doesn't look very happy:

[barnstormer1968]

So a NATO member has shot down an aircraft from a coalition fighting Isis.
Maybe it's because the Russians were helping the coalition to beat Isis by supporting Kurds, or maybe it's just that the Russains are helping defeat Isis by destroying oil transportation that annoyed the Turks as they are happy to prop up Isis buying that exact oil.

I'm thinking that the Russians aren't the problem here and that a NATO member is. Are we looking at a 'Vichy Turkey'?

[FE Hoppy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyjlqhiTV8

[Wokkafans]

Reported to be the track on FlightRadar

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkiQ0yWEAA8x4V.png

[NutLoose]

Re the pilots image,

Off Sky News


BREAKING: A video sent by a Syrian rebel group to news agency Reuters claims to show a Russian pilot immobile on the ground. An official from the group says the pilot is dead.

If that is true, it's not cool to post it, you wouldn't want it shown for one of our / your own. He will after all have family members who are just receiving a visit and will have internet access.

Personally I would take it down mate until it is established if he is indeed alive or not.

[Tourist]

Eclectic


What is wrong with you?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, posting a pic of an injured/dead pilot is sh1tty.

[Stitchbitch]

Eclectic that image isn't really suitable here. Please remove it.

[Skeleton]

Come on Mods, that image needs to be gone.

[tonker]

The other pilot was pulled from trees by a baying mob!

[Davef68]

Surely the Turks realise that the Russians have no reason to penetrate their airspace, accidently or otherwise, other than to bomb IS.

All the more reason for coordinating the air strikes between the anti-IS 'allies'.

Except they are not just bombing IS

[ShotOne]

Unfortunately for those of us who like to view this as a straight good vs bad guys, those closer to the action have their own priorities. In the case of the Turks, fighting IS is some way down the list.

[Above The Clouds]

Sadly both crew being reported as dead, possible one killed after landing by the mob of scumbags.

This will end in tears for someone.

[Wokkafans]

Deleted - incorrect info.

[dead_pan]

From the footage being circulated it looked like one of the aircrew had a very heavy landing.

Also there are unconfirmed reports circulating of one of the Russian CSAR helos being downed by local rebels.

[MPN11]

Oh, dear, what a mess.

I'm assuming from those tracks shown by Wokkafans that the Russian is the one with the east/west pattern in red. Quite a modest airspace violation, but then what do I know about Turkish sensitivity!

[Jayand]

Modest? What's that got to do with it? The Russians were repeatedly warned over the last few weeks, this is a very tense situation in a very tense part of the world. If you encroach another nations airspace, ignore warnings and protestations for
Weeks then what do you expect?
Putin should remember the poor souls who died aboard the CIVILIAN airliner shot down in Ukraine by his forces or forces supported by his regime not so long ago before he takes any moral stance and likely retaliation!

[Wokkafans]

Unverified reports of a Russian helo involved in SAR ops being destroyed by a TOW whilst on the ground. Footage on YT.

[Satellite_Driver]

The BBC is now showing what it says is another picture from AFP of the aircraft being downed:

Turkey 'shoots down Russian Su-24 jet at Syria border' - BBC News (http://bbc.in/1P60twb)

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/704/amz/vivo/live/images/2015/11/24/84ffdbdd-4515-484e-a02a-4546ae85102a.jpg

However, to me that looks like an Su-27 or derivative, not an Su-24 (which the other pictures clearly do show).

Either two planes are down or, more likely, somebody is getting confused, spoofed or carried away.

EDIT: And now withdrawn by AFP, accepting it's an old picture.

[tonker]

A rescue helicopter that landed was then blown up by a TOW missle.

[dead_pan]

A rescue helicopter that landed was then blown up by a TOW missle.

Footage on YT looks suspect - would a helo really sit on the ground in such an exposed position in hostile territory with its engines apparently off?

[CoffmanStarter]

SD ...

Even the Telegraph posted that incorrect pic.

SU-27 dispensing flares ... Not a SU-24 ...

http://www.airshow-party.de/MAKS07_Fotos_gross/Flying/SU-27Flares.jpg

Image Credit : As Shown

Irrespective of Country or Politics two Mil Aircrew were hurt ... One reportly loosing his life ... A sad day.

[strake]

There is video of the pilots being machine gunned while under their parachutes. BBC confirms claims by Turkmen that 'Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air."
Sick b******s. Turkey now has the blood of Russian pilots on its hands. They are going to pay dearly for that. I sincerely hope that NATO (ie the USA) distances itself very quickly from this and doesn't try to justify it in the least.

[TEEEJ]

dead_pan wrote

Footage on YT looks suspect - would a helo really sit on the ground in such an exposed position in hostile territory with its engines apparently off?

Apparently the helo took ground fire and was abandoned.

[FleurDeLys]

Russia says the SU 24 was 6,000m amsl, 1,000m lateral distance from the border.
Being so confident of your position as to get that close to the border in the Su 24 is an awfully big (crazy?) gamble that the F16s are equally confident of their position (and yours) in deciding shoot/no shoot.
Even manoeuvring at only 350kts, 1000m is c 5 secs difference between being dead-right and dead-wrong about which side of the border you're on.
But either way, its close enough to end up being dead.

[MACH2NUMBER]

I give up on poor military comment by the press. Turkey and Russia will argue the toss over where the aircraft was when it was hit, and we may never know the truth The press are hopeless when commenting on these issues and never consider simple facts like the range of air-to-air missiles today and the distance a 550 knot target may travel after being shot. 1km is absolutely nothing in this context and is no proof of where the aircraft actually was when it was hit.

[MACH2NUMBER]

FDL,
Sorry our posts crossed. At the height of the Cold War we stayed 10NM away from the border with East Germany to avoid any such a situation. Granted we did not have GPS then, but we also had GCI. Russia seems to be cavalier or just pushing its luck. M2N

[Herod]

Where were the videos shot from, and by whom? There is one circulating on TV which is an aerial shot of a parachute descending into trees. Russian helicopter footage? This close to the border, a lot could be gained by knowing these facts.

[Easy Street]

Radar track released by the Turkish MOD (linked from CBS News):

http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2015/11/24/84c97b44-77f9-4c46-9ef2-02b9b795a0f1/thumbnail/620x350/8284ebccae50369375a315185be16e31/turkeyradarrussianjetsyria.jpg

And a link to the same area on Google Maps:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Turkey/@35.8764966,36.010336,12z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x14b0155c964f2671:0x40d9dbd42a625f2a

Note the scale on the Google version. Looks to me as if the Russian jet would have been in Turkish airspace for no more than 15 seconds or so. The little isthmus of Turkey is so narrow that the moment the Russian jet enters it, you could quite reasonably say that it's exiting it! Who am I to judge, but it looks like a bit of an overreaction.

[phil9560]

Its as if these animals are suffering from a form of OCD.

They commit gross obscenities whilst competing with each other to chant 'allahu akhbar'.Like some sort of perverse dawn chorus or nervous twitch.

[smujsmith]

I see that reports are now emerging that US "authorities" are suggesting that the Russian jet was only in Turkish airspace for around 5 seconds. Gives the lie to Turkish claims of 10 warnings over 5 minutes. As someone else has said, will we ever know? I just can't help but think this is more about political deviousnous that military or security concerns. Oh what a tangled web they weave. I hope though that those who "Allah ackbarred" over the body of the pilot today are not the same "moderate opposition" our PM is intent on supporting from the air.

Smudge

[ShotOne]

The Turks themselves are only claiming the jet was in their airspace for 17 seconds. How would we feel if a Tornado was downed in identical circumstances?

"Moderate" rebels? People prepared to take up arms in a brutal civil war tend not to be moderate by any usual meaning of the word.

[Wokkafans]

Claims emerging that a Russian Marine assisting in the SAR effort was also killed by "moderate rebels." :sad:

[Kitbag]

Is it possible that the lost ac was no2 of a pair? the radar track posted by Easy Street appears to show (to my very untrained eyes) some 'jumps' in the lower right part of what I assume is an orbit and the footage of Russian ac taking off today indicates that they were acting in small packets.

As for the rights and wrongs of the shootdown...

[Marcantilan]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12246599_10153795207534540_5730968522248684388_n.jpg?oh=3e63 d579467d63c88fc49cf8f1d091fe&oe=56E70E90&__gda__=1454492497_d01194c697b98944081a4d5cc24ffd0d

A nonsense by the Turks, and the "explanation" puzzles me.

Not a wise idea to bit a bear.

Regards,

[Kitbag]

I think, given the 'previous', the Russians have overstepped the mark in repeated incursions, and the Turks were justified.


Foolish, but justified.

[ShotOne]

Really kitbag? Even assuming the Su24 did briefly enter Turkish airspace, by any measure, deliberately firing a missile to destroy an aircraft in another countries sovereign airspace is surely a much greater violation?

[Cows getting bigger]

Perhaps someone should ask Putin where the Ukraine BAK launch unit went?

[Hangarshuffle]

Expeditionary air warfare in the early part of the 21st century. Rebellious armed groups, confusing and conflicting aims, oscillating alliances. Yesterday Russia looked like an ally chalking messages of support to Paris, what on earth are they tomorrow?
Aircrew can expect nothing less than death if they get shot down here it seems. No mercy can seem to be expected. Only the degree to which how horribly they die. Those Russian airmen had clearly survived as far as into their chutes. Clear this up for me - the people who killed them are our allies?
Wonder how Russia will react, most especially to Britain in another turn of this serious spiral?
I keep e-mailing my MP asking her to vote against this coming vote for an escalation of war. Hope today sways her against Cameron's stance.

[MPN11]

sadly this is a consequence of of the newly-resurgent Russia (in 'kill everyone' mode) and Turkey (with innumerable side issues in this equation).

IMHO they were both bloody stupid.

coordination/cooperation? hahahahahah

[Lonewolf_50]

Really kitbag? Even assuming the Su24 did briefly enter Turkish airspace, by any measure, deliberately firing a missile to destroy an aircraft in another countries sovereign airspace is surely a much greater violation? It wasn't just the airspace incursion. It was the repeated warnings, and previous incursions. The Turks, for all that this incident saddens me deeply, are well within their rights to secure their borders and their airspace, and I think that they can make the case that they have given ample warning not just during this event, but during other incursions within the past few months.

Not to mention, they knocked down a Syrian jet within the last few months near their airspace.

I find it interesting that the Turks refer to the jet as of unknown nationality, which means that they could argue that they thought it was Syrian ... but with the F-16 there ... how bout a VID and figure out what nation's marking are on the aircraft?

Hmmm, lots of messiness in this business. To answer one of the questions, I think that the Russians were attacking a group that is supported by Turkey, that isn't ISIS, and is opposed to Assad. As ever, this whole thing's a bloody mess.

[Hangarshuffle]

We need a peace summit among the leaders. Now that would be a better idea than, say...more bombing.

[Hangarshuffle]

If this is about simple incursions dozens of planes would have been shot down this year alone by now, all over the world.
Think 'so much more behind this than a spontaneous ambush of fighters on bombers.

[Lonewolf_50]

We need a peace summit among the leaders. Now that would be a better idea than, say...more bombing. If it were that easy, it would have already happened. Crap, I think that Kerry and Lavrov made some noises about that sometime after the charges of chem weapons use was going down.

A couple of years later, and no meeting. Most of the Syrian parties involved are not interested in negotiating. They do not accept the other Syrian parties as acting in good faith. No matter how much good faith the powers present at a table, if the locals do not trust each other what is the point of coming to the table?

How do you get the first few trust building measure put into place so that you can move to where they come to a table? Recent examples of how "easy" this is include Hamas, PLO, Israel, Iraqi Shiites, Iraqi Sunnis, Iraqi Kurds, and for that matter people wearing various colors of shirts in Thailand. See also the Tamil and Sir Lanka.

Negotiation isn't always an available tool, no matter what the tools at the UN assert. :mad:

[Royalistflyer]

Erdogan is a dangerous wild card - imagining that NATO will come to his aid. We have enough trouble with our own baby boomer idiot politicians without this crass stupidity by Turkey. Let them find out for themselves how Russia will react and live with the consequences of their stupidity.

[MPN11]

... and Turkey can forget EU Membership, for which many will be grateful! ;)

[Marcantilan]

they can make the case that they have given ample warning not just during this event, but during other incursions within the past few months.

Well, the Turks informs the violation lasted 17 seconds, but they warned the unknown A/C to change course for 10 minutes...

Besides that, six warnings in 3 1/2 years, mostly about cargo A/C...

Sorry, the Turks has no case here.

[Lonewolf_50]

Well, the Turks informs the violation lasted 17 seconds, but they warned the unknown A/C to change course for 10 minutes...
Sorry, the Turks has no case here.
Sorry, yes they do have a case. In the words you used, right there. Not to mention, they were not shot down by a SAM, but by an F-16. What are the odds that the F-16 had a Visual ID and that they confirmed it was a WARPLANE before going weapons free? I'll bet that they did just that.

Would I rather then not have shot the plane down?
Yes.
A thousand times yes.
As to Turkey not being in the EU ... well, that was always the better idea.

About 20 years ago, I questioned why NATO should keep existing. NATO chose to begin "out of area" operations as a new strategic direction for the alliance. NATO did a lot of other things.

Turkey was added to NATO for the strategic reason of Russia and Geography, back in the 1950's, and in part to keep Greece and Turkey from going to war. (That latter bit was successful, give or take a bit of trouble in Cyprus).

Hard question for the North Atlantic Alliance: does Turkey still belong in NATO?
Maybe yes, maybe no, and does Turkey want to stay in NATO?
If so, why?

Difficult times ahead.

[MPN11]

i haven't closely followed the Turkish/Greek air events over the years, but it seems to me that they're both a bit cavalier with 'weapons free'.

Time to grow up and start behaving sensibly? Or is that harsh?

[Marcantilan]

Sorry, yes they do have a case. In the words you used, right there.

I was being ironic.

[spooky3]

I just hope Putin Cains this medieval scum that is infecting this earth and to hell with P.C

[AreOut]

turkey is violating greek airspace every couple of days, they would get mad if Greeks downed their aircraft so why they think they should be allowed to do something others should not?

[Hangarshuffle]

Its gone beyond that spooky, they are here - they are amongst us now. Its now what 24 years from GW 1...33 years from the Lebanon death camps? Axes to grind and scores to settle. The roads well marked out.
The more distant we place our fighting men from our homes to do our bloody work, and the more technologically advanced methods we construct to kill them, they more they will use the polar opposite to kill us, as they are amongst us.
Neither of us are doing "P.C".

[Hangarshuffle]

BBC world are hinting that the Turks shot down the bomber because it was, or rather its squadron mates have recently been attacking the "Turkmen", an armed group active against Syria's leader and Govt. but close to Turkey in every way kith and kin like.
Looks like a mistake, really.
I've left Max Hasting's recentish excellent book about the crazy start to WW1 at home, but this is ringing warning bells right in my head. The imbecile nature of the European leaders, I mean, at that time.

[spooky3]

015, 20:14 #65 (permalink)
Hangarshuffle

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 658
Its gone beyond that spooky, they are here - they are amongst us now. Its now what 24 years from GW 1...33 years from the Lebanon death camps? Axes to grind and scores to settle. The roads well marked out.
The more distant we place our fighting men from our homes to do our bloody work, and the more technologically advanced methods we construct to kill them, they more they will use the polar opposite to kill us, as they are amongst us.
Neither of us are doing "P.C".

You are so right Hangarshuffle, how long till the majority can see the wood from the trees?

[SkyHawk-N]

Turkey has several dogs in the Syrian fight. This downing was not about airspace violation, it was about Turkey's unhappiness with the Russians impact on their agenda. It was also a very naïve action from which Turkey will not benefit.

Very sad news about the pilots. Their cold blooded murderers (BTW, where is the condemnation of their actions?) are apparently the West's best buddies.

[Lonewolf_50]

I was being ironic. Hee hee, you got me. :ok: :} Well done, that one flew over me at FL 330.

Skyhawk: is it confirmed that the aircrew are dead? And is it confirmed at the hands of the locals?



(Recall an old "Murphy's Laws of Combat" to the effect of "not a great idea to eject over the area you just strafed" or something like that. Not that this aircrew had a choice ... :mad:)

[Hangarshuffle]

I like the Asian peoples, and Middle Eastern people, and all other people generally, but I'm afraid total hate is in so many hearts now.
Payback. When I listened, lying in my bunk in the ramp mess, to our jets blasting off the deck on bombing raids or whatever 20 odd years ago, I used to think...some of the kids onshore are going to be on the end of this dished out grief. They may not full understand or care why we are hitting them, but they may come back, after us any way they can when they grow up. And so in yet another area its come, or coming back to us, now.
Syria must be half full of disaffected bitter men by now, after 5 years of war and grief and they've got through the borders of Europe. Its a spiral.

[Lonewolf_50]

I like the Asian peoples, and Middle Eastern people, and all other people generally, but I'm afraid total hate is in so many hearts now.
Payback. When I listened, lying in my bunk in the ramp mess, to our jets blasting off the deck on bombing raids or whatever 20 odd years ago, I used to think...some of the kids onshore are going to be on the end of this dished out grief. They may not full understand or care why we are hitting them, but they may come back, after us any way they can when they grow up. And so in yet another area its come, or coming back to us, now.
Syria must be half full of disaffected bitter men by now, after 5 years of war and grief and they've got through the borders of Europe. Its a spiral. Europe let 'em in. As to the rest, Clausewitz has a pithy observation for anyone interested: "In war, the outcome is never final."

[SkyHawk-N]

Skyhawk: is it confirmed that the aircrew are dead? And is it confirmed at the hands of the locals?

From what I've read I believe they are. Having seen some awful pictures it sure looks like at least one is. I really hope I am wrong, I would be very happy if I am.

[NutLoose]

First off, my sincere condolences to the crew who lost their lives and their families and friends, regardless of their Country of origin they did not deserve to be murdered like that.

The only winners in this sorry affair is Daesh, they must be taking heart from the idea that there will now be conflict and mistrust amongst those Countries operating over Iraq and Syria.
Just when I thought the World was starting to sing from the same hymn sheet in their efforts to irradiate this scum, this happens.

[Marcantilan]

https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/

Three steps as announced by top brass:


Each and every strike groups’ operation is to be carried out under the guise of fighter jets
Air defense to be boosted with the deployment of Moskva guided missile cruiser off Latakia coast with an aim to destroy any target that may pose danger
Military contacts with Turkey to be suspended


This is escalating quickly.

[racedo]

I have read a couple of times that the Turkish jet was in Syrian airspace when it fired the missile ......................

[AreOut]

here is the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccENeRldkW4

if it's not edited...turks are in trouble

[BEagle]

A ridiculously extreme over-reaction from the Turks - they deserve whatever is coming to them when Vladimir Putin decides on the appropriate response.

Erdoğan isn't likely to find many people supporting such a stupid, disproportionate response to a 17 second incursion; perhaps he's trying to prove himself following the recent Turkish General Election?

Meanwhile, after admitting that his rebels murdered the Russian crew in their parachutes, Alpaslan Çelik's days are probably numbered, given that there are large numbers of Spetsnaz in Syria. Not people to be messed with - as he and his cohorts will probably discover to their cost.

[NutLoose]

Interesting wording

Sergey Rudskoy, a top official with the Russian General Staff, condemned the attack on the Russian bomber in Syrian airspace by a Turkish fighter jet as “a severe violation of international law”. He stressed that the Su-24 was downed over the Syrian territory. The crash site was four kilometers away from the Turkish border, he said.


But that does not mean the missile was not launched at the Aircraft while it was in Turkish airspace

[al_renko]

How any parties in this mess can be called " moderate opposition" beggars belief.The Americans need a change of President because this Obama is totally hopeless.

[TURIN]

The only winners in this sorry affair is Daesh, they must be taking heart from the idea that there will now be conflict and mistrust amongst those Countries operating over Iraq and Syria.
Just when I thought the World was starting to sing from the same hymn sheet in their efforts to irradiate this scum, this happens.

Yeeees. Odd isn't it? :suspect:

[Cows getting bigger]

Indeed, it would be easy for us all to take our eyes off the ball.

[Easy Street]

BBC now showing where the Russian aircraft was hit by the missile:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/520/cpsprodpb/141C7/production/_86857328_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png

Based on the reported 17-second length of the incursion, the SU-24 must have been back in Syrian airspace for about 40 seconds when it was hit. That's way longer than the time of flight of a visual missile shot, which means that either:

A) The Turkish aircraft fired a visually-aimed shot when the Russians had already left Turkish airspace. Very, very bad. Especially if fired in Syrian airspace (Newsnight just described the missile as a Sidewinder... if true, then its limited range makes that quite likely).

B) The Turkish aircraft fired BVR when the Russians were in their 17-second transgression. Raises serious question of proportionality as it would have been blindingly obvious that they were heading straight out again, meaning the shot could not possibly prevent or terminate incursion, but merely punish it. Bad.

If the Turkish intent was actually to protect the Turkmen rebels from Russian air strikes, using a minor infringement as a pretext, then it can reasonably be characterised as an aggression by Turkey - after all, Russia is in Syria at the sovereign's request. Neither of the defensive explanations above stacks up for me. And the warnings over 10 minutes are weakened in significance by the evidence that the Russians were orbiting - and only pointing at the border for a minute or so before the shot.

I always thought NATO would be desperately challenged by a Turkish request for assistance in a situation of marginal or negative interest to the other members. If Putin is looking for any consolation, he might find it in the ructions undoubtedly going on at NATO HQ tonight.

Hang on.... he wouldn't have set this one up, would he? Where's my tinfoil hat!

Edited to add: Must agree with a previous poster that for Obama to hail the "moderate opposition" when we've just seen them shooting at parachutes and Allah-akhbaring over dead bodies simply exposes the utter folly of Western policy.

[chevvron]

Sergey Rudskoy, a top official with the Russian General Staff, condemned the attack on the Russian bomber in Syrian airspace by a Turkish fighter jet as “a severe violation of international law”.


Does he not remember the Russians shooting down an unarmed Korean Airlines '747 killing hundreds of innocent civilians?

[AreOut]

it was Soviets and it was 30 years ago

[megan]

A ridiculously extreme over-reaction from the TurksBEagle, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that Turkey and Syria have a bit of history, not least the Syrian shoot down, with Russian coordination apparently, on 22 June 2012 of the Turkish F-4. There is some speculation that the crew survived the shoot down, were later executed, and disposed of at sea where they were later found by Turkish forces on the sea bed. The speculation also is the execution order came from "Russian leadership". If true, perhaps the latest is understandable, tit for tat and all that. Then again, stupid is as stupid does.

[SkyHawk-N]

Unfortunately no sound, but here is the Russian take on the aircraft positions during the event.

NZK-ORnY4Aw

[ORAC]

Proportionality? Perhaps the Russians should have been more aware of the hard floor/wall rules being applied in the area. The Turkish F4 has been mentioned. The Syrian helicopters engaged are also relevant. This is not the North Sea, this is a hot combat zone. The Russians seem to have thought the rules don't apply to them.......

Turkey Shoots Down Syrian Helicopter - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323527004579079211922065496)

Turkey Says It Shot Down Syrian Helicopter (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/warfare/2015/05/17/turkey-says-shoots-syrian-helicopter/27494741/)

[AR1]

It may well be a hot combat zone, but Turkey isn't the target and there was no need to take the shot. Both powers need to take responsibility for deconflicting the airspace, but Turkey know whats going on over the boarder and need to excercise some self control. Having the F16s in the area is fine but they need to evaluate the threat not beat thier chests over some air.

[Megaton]

What do you think the Russians would have done had the roles been reversed? Putin only understands strong arm tactics. He pushes and pushes and pushes thinking that no one will stand up to him.

[ORAC]

there was no need to take the shot. The Turks obviously saw it otherwise. It certainly raises the stakes and will give Putin pause for thought before deciding if he wishes to escalate.

Putin may have originally have seen this as an easy flag waving exercise to help any ally in Assad whilst rubbing Obama and Europe's noses at their irrelevance. Suddenly he is on the point of being sucked into a major confrontation he can't afford economically or politically.

He also has little chance of persuading Saudi or any of the other Gulf OPEC states to help get the price of oil back up. Nice one Vlad........

[Wokkafans]

Some hopefully good news:

"One of the downed Su-24 pilot found 'safe & sound', taken to Hmeymim base: Russian Defense Minister"

[tlamdweeb]

The BBC graphic seems to show that the SU24 went through Turkish airspace twice before being shot down. Approached from the East, then did a left hand orbit and retraced it's track.

[SkyHawk-N]

Great news! 2nd pilot alive and back at base.

Missing Russian jet pilot 'alive and well' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485)

[SkyHawk-N]

A question I haven't seen asked yet. As the Russians were shot at by 'moderate forces', killing one of their pilots and a naval infantryman, and destroying a Mi-8 helicopter being used in the rescue, does that now make them a legitimate Russian target?

[Courtney Mil]

To back up Easy Street's map, this is the one from Newsnight last night. Although the aircraft probably did fly through a couple of kilometres of Turkish airspace, it was actually hit after it had left. Probably too far outside the border to account for time of flight of the missile. In the screenshot image below the aircraft was hit at the position marked 9:24. They reported that it was a Sidewinder.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/Courtneyon/image_zpskruiaela.jpeg

If the purple (F-16) track is anything to go by, it looks like a stern shot. Even at max range for 20,000' the rule-of-thumb time of flight would have put the target well outside the border at launch. If it was a beam shot or hotter, as other versions suggest, the time of flight is even less so the target was even more likely to be in Syria.

All the above assumes the map and positions are reasonably accurate - but who knows, eh? The Russian version of events suggests a front sector shot, but that version shows the target never entering Turkish airspace so is pretty much a moot point.

I agree with Easy Street. This would appear to be a shot taken in Syria. Turkey are either telling Russia to stop intruding their area or they are protecting the Rebels in Northern Syria. Probably both in my opinion.

[Trim Stab]

A question I haven't seen asked yet. As the Russians were shot at by 'moderate forces', killing one of their pilots and a naval infantryman, and destroying a Mi-8 helicopter being used in the rescue, does that now make them a legitimate Russian target?

And the so-called "moderate" US-supported forces also shot at the aircrew as they parachuted down, killing one, then used a US-supplied weapon to destroy the Mi-8 rescue helicopter.

I find it pretty tiresome that US and UK politicians use every sound-bite opportunity to portray Assad as a brutal tyrant who "murders his own people" while clearly - as in all civil wars - all sides are driven to equal levels of brutality.

[BEagle]

Head sector AIM-120, perhaps?

You are far more up to speed on such triggernometry, Courtney me old, but perhaps the Russians don't wish to publicise the Su-24's lack of radar warning capability against an AIM-120 shooter?

[TBM-Legend]

Do the Ruskies monitor "Guard"?


Listen to dramatic moment Turkey warns Russian fighter jet to retreat before shooting it down - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/listen-dramatic-moment-turkey-warns-6896084?google_editors_picks=true)

[Just This Once...]

Surely an AIM-120 shot as you don't push WVR against an armed pair of FJ for the fun of it?

[ShotOne]

Some big ripples from this; hopefully cool heads will prevail but they haven't so far. Even if the Sukhoi did briefly enter Turkish airspace as the Turks claim, their own violation in shooting it down in Syrian airspace was much more flagrant. Does this drag us in, Turkey being a NATO member?Perhaps it's time for a serious think on the implications of an expanded NATO. It was our bastion during the dark cold-war years. Is there a danger now that membership will encourage members on the periphery to a more rash action than they would otherwise?

[handleturning]

I would very much doubt the Turks are firing AIM 120 into that environment. Do they even have war rounds?

[The Civil Civillian]

Nutloose: "First off, my sincere condolences to the crew who lost their lives and their families and friends, regardless of their Country of origin they did not deserve to be murdered like that."

The aircrew were dropping ordinance on the men below and jagged metal doesn't exactly tickle when it meets flesh.Shooting at a helpless man in a parachute is on par with an aircraft dropping a munition over a man with an AK47 ... both are helpless at fighting off their attacker.P.S. my reading of the incident is the Russian aircraft is dropping munitions on the Turkmen below and to do this the attack run went over an area of Turkey that projects into Syria. The Turks are simply protec.ting their men below.

[NutLoose]

CC,
I think you will find the Geneva Convention ( not that they are signed up to it though ) states one should not fire upon those abandoning an aircraft...... paras are fair game, but crews are not. You are not protecting anyone shooting at what is in effect an unarmed man, true he may have a side arm, but would probably not be in a position to use it..

see

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule48

[Just This Once...]

I would very much doubt the Turks are firing AIM 120 into that environment. Do they even have war rounds?

Ehh? It would be pretty daft to do a QRA type sortie with training rounds.

Anyway, they managed to put an AIM-120 shot through a MiG last year, so they seem to know how to do it.

[Wageslave]

Overreaction? Really?

Ten warnings in five minutes?
Returned for a blatantly inflammatory (double-entendre intended) second pass through Turkish airspace.
What the heck would you expect the Turks to do? Just grumble about it like we lily livered Westerners and let the world know you're a toothless, gutless pussy? They're made of sterner stuff than that in Turkey and Russia has clearly been taking the p!ss unmercifully in Turkish airspace for weeks. About time they had their arse spanked and the thug in the kremlin reminded he isn't Lord of All. Russia has been blatantly been attacking Western supported factions since their arrival in theatre in a deliberate attempt to goad the West. Their behaviour in Syria has been well out of order.

And what's the hit occurring in Syrian airspace got to do with it? That's an emotive treehugger red-herring line like which way the Belgrano was pointing - irrelevant. They'd intruded, there was every likelyhood they'd do it again, they'd been warned multiple times and were conspicuously ignoring it. Open season fairly declared, I think.

Are you not allowed to stop a burglar after he's left your property? Strewth!

[Willard Whyte]

I think it most likely this was trolling on the part of the Russians, part of a 'Grand Plan', if you will. Test NATO defences, lets Putin to indulge in a spot of faux outrage.

The jet(s) were warned numerous times to alter their vector, they didn't, they got what was coming to them (not the subsequent braying mob of pig-f****rs of course).

(The Belgrano comment ^ is most apt)

[Courtney Mil]

Shooting at a helpless man in a parachute is on par with an aircraft dropping a munition over a man with an AK47 ... both are helpless at fighting off their attacker.

The two actions are very different. One is an act of war (legitimate and/or legal under the appropriate circumstances), the other contravenes Article 42 of the Geneva Convention (Protocol I - important as I shall explain in a moment), which states, 'No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.'

All three nations are signatories to the Geneva Convention, but note that Russia and Syria ARE signatories to Protocol I whilst Turkey is NOT.

However, International Law of Armed Conflict also covers this in the 1868 St Petersburg Declaration, which allows for whatever reasonable force is necessary, lawful and operationally justified in combat to make your opponent submit. ILAC specifies that who are out of action, such as surrendering combatants, air crew parachuting from downed aircraft, the wounded, sick and shipwrecked, prisoners of war and other captives and detainees, must be identified as such and treated humanely.

International Law of Armed Conflict applies to conflict between and within nations even when there has been no formal declaration of war.

I'm not sure if you are questioning the morality of air attack or trying to distinguish that from attacking military personnel who are hors de combat. To me the difference is clear, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[SkyHawk-N]

(The Belgrano comment ^ is most apt)

I don't think it is. The Belgrano was in international waters when it was attacked, it seems that the SU-24 was over sovereign territory. That is a large difference.

[The Civil Civillian]

"CC,
I think you will find the Geneva Convention ( not that they are signed up to it though ) states one should not fire upon those abandoning an aircraft."

I too abhored the images of the dead pilot but my outlook was tempered by the fact that 5 minutes earlier they were trying to kill those below. I'm very sympathetic to the aircrew but they were on a bombing mission and this time they happened to have got caught.

[Courtney Mil]

Back to technical issues.

Handleturning, yes, they have a good stock of live AIM-120 rounds and the ability to use them.

BEags, I'm not sure, but I thought it was the Turks that stated it was an AIM-9 shot, the Russians said it was a SAM initially. The TuAF have Lima, Mike and Papa (and I think some early models) so all aspect with reasonable range. If their intent was to set what looks like an ambush with the intention of shooting one down (which appears possible if not likely to me) a visual AIM-9 shot without radar lock would seem a good way of doing it. That said, yes, a slammer would have been safer and equally effective in this situation.

[Courtney Mil]

I too abhored the images of the dead pilot but my outlook was tempered by the fact that 5 minutes earlier they were trying to kill those below. I'm very sympathetic to the aircrew but they were on a bombing mission and this time they happened to have got caught.

And it is exactly that type of retribution that the GC and ILAC articles were designed to prevent.

[Postman Plod]

I'd disagree that the Belgrano comment is apt in the other direction. There is no state of war or conflict, or potential state of war or conflict between Turkey and Russia. In fact, is there one between Turkey and Syria?? There would be no reasonable expectation that Russian (or in fact Syrian) forces would be attacking Turkey, so using force seems disproportionate - other than an airspace incursion, there was no threat.

This could, and should, have been handled through further diplomatic action. Pussyish "Western" response? Yeh, well I guess the Western response would be to avoid conflict, rather than try to find any and every excuse to get ourselves into an all out war!

Which leads on to the fact that, just as it seemed everyone was finally getting on the same page with regards to CystISIS, just as East and West find some common ground, something monumentally stupid happens to push everyone even further apart. Almost as if some people want conflict... :ugh:

[Postman Plod]

and with the best will in the world, I'm pretty damn sure that if it was CystISIS (or some moderate group not on "our" side) shooting "our" downed aircrew out of the sky, the response wouldn't be "well they deserved it"... would it?

[The Civil Civillian]

C Mil "I'm not sure if you are questioning the morality of air attack or trying to distinguish that from attacking military personnel who are hors de combat. To me the difference is clear, but I'll leave it at that for now."

I thought I was clear: dropping a bomb on a guy from 10,000 ft is on par with shooting a man strapped into a parachute.

Both are helpless at defending themselves against their assailant.

You may say the pilots were 'hors de combat', I'm sure those on the ground would say they lost their advantage when they lost their aircraft. I'll leave it at that for now.

[Easy Street]

The Turks are simply protec.ting their men below

The Turks have, up to now, been careful not to directly intervene in Syria. Funding and arming rebels, as they and the US have been doing inside Turkey, can be achieved without tripping over the line into state-on-state war. However, if your conclusion is correct, then this was an act of war by Turkey against the Syrian state, which is engaged in civil war with those men inside Syria, and also against Russia, which is acting on behalf of the Syrian state with its sovereign authority. I really and truly hope that your conclusion is wrong, but have my doubts.

I would very much doubt the Turks are firing AIM 120 into that environment.


If they had used anything else (AIM-9 or gun) then, based on the reported information so far, the shot must have been taken when the Russians had already left Turkish airspace. And it would be very likely that the shot itself would have been fired in Syrian airspace. For those reasons, I hope it was an AIM-120, otherwise we're looking at an act of war again.

If you are inferring that it would be utterly reckless to fire AIM-120 into an air environment densely populated with unidentified or friendly tracks, I would agree with that... but given that the non-Russian players are more interested in ISIL than Turkmen rebels, I suspect that there weren't many other tracks in the area in question.

Do the Ruskies monitor "Guard"?

Don't know. But I suspect the momentary transgression was an aircrew error - from the radar track it is pretty clear that their intent was to orbit just south of the border, and it looks to me as if they failed to notice the tiny southward protrusion of Turkish territory. With this in mind, it is perfectly possible that they would have been listening on Guard and hearing the warnings from the Turks, and giving them a stiff ignoring. Many of us have done the same thing near various international boundaries in response to air defence broadcasts like "Coalition aircraft near xxxx, identify yourself, you are approaching xxxx airspace, blah blah blah" - depending on policy, we would either ignore them or give a canned response to the effect of "we are operating under xxxxx authority and remaining in xxxxx airspace". As long as the Russians thought they were staying in Syrian airspace, they would have been justified in doing the same. Their mistake was crossing into Turkey for 17 seconds....

The jet(s) were warned numerous times to alter their vector, they didn't, they got what was coming to them

They were orbiting near the border, and by rights they could do so all day provided they stayed on the right side of the line. This means their vector was changing continuously, which makes the significance of the warnings rather different - "move away from the border" as much as "don't cross the border". The Russians were pointing at Turkish airspace for at the most a minute or so prior to the engagement.

Are you not allowed to stop a burglar after he's left your property? Strewth!

You're not allowed to violently attack him. Retribution seems to form a big part of your thinking, what your comments on downed aircrew, but even in war, the only place it can be delivered while complying with international law is in a courtroom! And your reference to the Belgrano is off the mark - the UK and Argentina were at war, which Turkey and Russia are not. Neither are Turkey and Syria in strict legal terms. That might change!

[BATCO]

Wageslave

I'll go with over-reaction. As the Greeks have been heard to mumble, "the Turks are themselves guilty of many such airspace infringements - despite repeated warnings - over the Aegean Sea. But we don't shoot them down."

Batco

[Geordie_Expat]

I thought I was clear: dropping a bomb on a guy from 10,000 ft is on par with shooting a man strapped into a parachute.

Both are helpless at defending themselves against their assailant.

You may say the pilots were 'hors de combat', I'm sure those on the ground would say they lost their advantage when they lost their aircraft. I'll leave it at that for now.

Complete and utter nonsense.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Clueless Civilian

What are you talking about?!

By your logic, no combatant should ever be able to surrender! :ugh:

And if you are going to talk nonsense here, at least get your facts straight: the rebels are armed with MANPADSs and AAA, so most certainly have the ability to defend themselves. There are quite a few dead Syrian MiG pilots to prove it.

[The Civil Civillian]

Easy Street: "Civil Civilian,

The Turks have, up to now, been careful not to directly intervene in Syria. Funding and arming rebels, as they and the US have been doing inside Turkey, can be achieved without tripping over the line into state-on-state war. However, if your conclusion that "They're protecting their men below" is correct, then this was an act of war by Turkey against the Syrian state, which is engaged in civil war with those men inside Syria, and also against Russia, which is acting on behalf of the Syrian state with its sovereign authority. I really and truly hope that your conclusion is wrong, but have my doubts."


It seems a bit elementary to think Turkey downed a Russian plane for a simple 5 or 10 second over-flight of a Turkish istmus? I suggest there's more to it.

Who are the Turkmen that are reported to have killed two Russian pilots? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12013935/Who-are-the-Turkmen.html)

"Who are the Turkmen that are reported to have killed two Russian pilots?

/snipped/

In Syria the Turkmen, who are linguistically and ethnically Turkish, live alongside Arabs and Kurds, but have mostly aligned with non-jihadist anti-Assad rebel groups.

/snipped/

"In recent days, thousands of civilians have fled over the border, saying they feared Russian bombing raids in support of regime forces in the area. ..."

[ORAC]

if your conclusion is correct, then this was an act of war by Turkey against the Syrian state Since they've been shooting each others aircraft and helos down for at 2 years I think that's a somewhat belated recognition. As such, the Russians were knowingly putting themselves in harms way.

However, I doubt very much that the Russians will do more than protest, they dont want a war with Turkey.

I note the Russians have advised that the Moskva off the coast has been given new ROE to enable them to protect their aircraft, and are deploying SAM. They should be wary of any engagements, I believe that their airfield is within long large artillery/rocket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-600T_Y%C4%B1ld%C4%B1r%C4%B1m)range of Turkey, and they would invite retaliation.

[AreOut]

Overreaction? Really?

Ten warnings in five minutes?
Returned for a blatantly inflammatory (double-entendre intended) second pass through Turkish airspace.
What the heck would you expect the Turks to do? Just grumble about it like we lily livered Westerners and let the world know you're a toothless, gutless pussy? They're made of sterner stuff than that in Turkey and Russia has clearly been taking the p!ss unmercifully in Turkish airspace for weeks. About time they had their arse spanked and the thug in the kremlin reminded he isn't Lord of All. Russia has been blatantly been attacking Western supported factions since their arrival in theatre in a deliberate attempt to goad the West. Their behaviour in Syria has been well out of order.

wth are you talking about? Syria is a sovereign country and only them and russian AF have the right to operate in their airspace, all others including turks operate there because Russians and Syrians have turned blind eye.

That will change now and turkish planes won't cross the border to strike Kurds in Syria anymore. And if I had to bet... Russians will make use of that S400 even if they come close to the border. They'll have an excuse now.

[Courtney Mil]

I thought I was clear: dropping a bomb on a guy from 10,000 ft is on par with shooting a man strapped into a parachute.

Please read my reply to you at Post #106, which explains the difference.

Further, one of the reasons the Russians are operating the Su 24 at 20,000' is to keep out of the reach of the Rebels' MANPADS. They can and do fight back.

I suspect you are here to have a go at the use of air power, which seems an odd thing to try to do on a military aviation forum. You COULD have a reasonable conversation about that here, but you would have to start by not ignoring the bits in people's responses that don't suit your position and then by getting your facts right.

Or perhaps you are just trying to provoke a response.

[Prophead]

Regarding pilots being machine gunned after bailing out. It's a good job that wasn't the USUAL reaction during WW1 & WW2. These people burned one pilot alive I seem to remember. It is just further reason to see that the usual rules do not apply with these people.

Somewhere there is a video of Erdogan saying that a brief incursion of airspace is not reason to shoot an aircraft down. That basically destroys all the arguments from the Turks.

Russia will likely react and regarding IS the gloves are off, even more so than after the airliner incident. Why the US is taking Turkeys side I do not know, NATO and GC does not apply and the best thing we can do if we do not have the stomach for the fight is step aside and let Russia deal with them.

The best IS can hope for is a war between western powers sparked off by incidents such as this. It would pave the way for their caliphate in what is left of Europe.

[The Civil Civillian]

Ewan Whosearmy "What are you talking about?!"

The Russian aircraft went round twice and bombed before it flew over the Turkish area the second time:

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/MobileSwitcher/v2/images/2418-1448389668796418685.svg


As you can see ffrom the graphic, that is the area of Syria that contains ethnic Turks AKA 'Turkmen':

http://www.turkomania.org/tr/wp-content/uploads/1-syria-ethnic-map-turkmen-ethnicity-population-and-density22.jpg

[Wageslave]

I grant the Turks are far from averse to tickling the Greeks but this is a somewhat different scenario, and I have no doubt they'd desist if Greece made a robust enough response,as in, "do that again and I'll shoot".

Re Belgrano. Stick to facts please, UK and Argentina were never at war. The situation is not so very dissimilar excepting the international waters bit.

It's hard to believe that even on the internet there are people unprincipled enough to defend the murder of aircrew under parachutes but then we are dealing with levels of nastiness unheard of in the dim and distant days of the Geneva Convention. And if they defend that what can they have to say about the sanctity of a border? Presumably borders mean nothing id you're chucking all the other legal niceties out of the widow too.

American and French aircraft are in Syrian airspace on combat missions, the Russians are there trying to make matters worse and if anyone is setting out to start a war it is them Why is Turkey copping so much flak? What have they done that is so blameworthy compared to what else is going on there, when actually all they are doing is making a show of defending their borders? Admittedly being pretty punchy with it, but nonetheless merely defending their border?

[The Civil Civillian]

C Mil "Please read my reply to you at Post #106, which explains the difference."

Difference to who?

[Courtney Mil]

I don't see where the problem is. They are bombing your house, your land etc and you shoot them down, but because they have ejected you are supposed to put down your arms, wait for them to land and treat them as POW's because the Geneva convention says so? Really?

And that is why Marine A is in prison. Unusual post from ex-RAF, especially one that demanded the picture of the dead polit be removed.

[al_renko]

Turkey is frequently cited as one of the primary destinations for ISIS' oil,so why no sanctions against the Turks.The house of Saud is also bank rolling ISIL.
Therefore the Americans are guilty by association.The Turks are also using this situation to bomb the Kurds.The Russians will be happy to hang onto Tartus and add to it if they can and probably will.The shoot down was a headline grabber by the stupid Turks,outcome being more bombs dropped on Turkmen,more Russian hardware introduced to theatre and onward and upward we jolly well go!

[Courtney Mil]

Civil Civillian, if you mean,

Both are helpless at defending themselves against their assailant.


then hardly a reply, simply restating your previous point after a few here have explained the difference.

To illustrate, take the same issue into a different context. US forces conducted air operations in SE Asia in the 60s. On many occasion they attacked Vietnam Kong personnel who had no means of directly firing back. When US Airmen were shot down they were subjected to grossly inhumane treatment and deadly reprisals. That is what international law is there to prevent.

I am not condoning or justifying Russia's operations in Syria; I oppose their actions. But the rebels are their fighting against Russia's allies and are doing so by choice against Syrian and Russian forces whose capabilities they well know, putting themselves at risk from those capabilities. Should they find themselves in a hopeless military situation, they have the option to surrender and abandon their fight; in that situation they should expect fair treatment. The same is true for their opposition who should also expect fair treatment.

The difference is those that are choosing to fight and those that are, for some reason, no longer doing so.

The difference is one is an operationally justified act of war, the other is murderous retribution.

The difference is one is legal and legitimate, the other is not.

[Phil_R]

Must admit my attitude to this is fairly uncompromising.

Would prefer that parachuting aircrew could be taken prisoner. Not particularly surprised they weren't.

Perhaps, during the Gulf War, when the enemy was clued-up and well-equipped to fight back, things were different. Now, dropping a bomb on someone you know lacks the technological means to respond and then running away at several hundred miles an hour is not bravery. It may be necessary, it may be a perfectly professional job of work, there may be nothing wrong with it, but if aircrew who have ejected wish to be treated gently they should probably not wear green, not carry weapons, and not train on how to run away.

P

[Tourist]

Courtney


I'm with Civil

I love the fact that there is a rule that is supposed to stop people killing me once I can't kill them anymore, but it makes no sense.


One minute I am sitting invulnerably above the enemy who is effectively unarmed whilst I drop things on him to kill him, and then by some twist of fate the next minute I am dangling under a parachute and I only have my pistol and he has a Kalashnikov.

Why the hell should he not shoot me?!

(the actual reason is because I am worth far more as a prize alive incidentally if any jihadis are listening)

The Geneva convention is total w@nk. It allows Nuclear weapons but bans landmines.

I will follow it to the letter because I must, not because I think it is right.

[BATCO]

"I grant the Turks are far from averse to tickling the Greeks but this is a somewhat different scenario, and I have no doubt they'd desist if Greece made a robust enough response,as in, "do that again and I'll shoot". " Wageslave

And there's the rub. The Greeks can see that there is no tactically hostile intent with the Turkish intrusions, so they do not respond tactically. Do the Turks seriously imagine that the Russians were about to attack them? I doubt it: so I'll stick to over-reaction.

Best
Batco

[hoodie]

Why the hell should he not shoot me?!
Because you are no longer a threat. As noted earlier, see also "Marine A".

[Courtney Mil]

Tourist,

My expectations have always been the same as yours, sadly. My attitude toward the treatment of prisoners of war, however, is not affected by that. I understand the human will to take revenge on those that have sought to do you harm, but do not subscribe to acting on that will.

As hoodie, rightly says, "no longer a threat". One is a military objective, the other a barbaric act of revenge.

Now back to events at hand rather than the thread drift into the morality of war.

[The Civil Civillian]

C Mill "The difference is one is legal and legitimate, the other is not."

To who? In who's eyes is it legal, ethical or moral? I think that distinction would be lost to the guy at the wrong end.

[Courtney Mil]

It is clearly lost on you.

[The Civil Civillian]

Hoodle: "Because you are no longer a threat"

Up until they capture you, you're a (valuable) enemy combatant capable of returning on missions swinging in your harness. One of the crew escaped so there's no guarantee that they were going to capture the Russians.It's war!

[Tourist]

Because you are no longer a threat. As noted earlier, see also "Marine A".

Then why is the pilot armed?

Marine A was injured and unarmed

[Phil_R]

Because you are no longer a threat.

Then why are you armed, dressed in camouflaged clothing, and trained and equipped to escape?

Look, in all seriousness, I have no great interest in entering this debate. I don't think the facts are really in dispute. It's not legal, it is predictable and it is to some extent understandable.

I would say that if I were to tool up as a news cameraman, go to the middle east, get snatched by the wrong people, and get beheaded on YouTube, I doubt many people on this forum would be wringing their hands over it. But they would probably watch the news, nonetheless.

P

[melmothtw]

Marine A was injured and unarmed

You mean the prisoner that Marine A murdered was injured and unarmed.

[Roland Pulfrew]

To who? In who's eyes is it legal, ethical or moral?

The International Criminal Court for one???

It allows Nuclear weapons but bans landmines.

Does the Geneva Convention ban landmines? I think you'll find that is the Ottawa Treaty.

Then why is the pilot armed?

Right of self defence.

[Courtney Mil]

I was called away before I could finish my previous post. I had intended to write:

It is clearly lost on you, but fortunately is not forgotten by vast majority of British (and other Western) soldiers who have been routinely faced with handling captured enemy combatants. On the rare occasion when they have not abided by this code of conduct, it is civilians like you that are very quick to cry foul and start demanding that heads roll.

[Tourist]

Right of self defence.

Self defence against what? Nobody is allowed to hurt him.

If self defence is allowed, then why can I not carry a pistol in the UK?

[Tourist]

The International Criminal Court for one???



I have zero respect for the ICC.

It is a political animal, not an unbiased arbiter of universal justice.

[hoodie]

Some might say the same about you! :E

[GlobalNav]

This is not an argument of "reason" but agenda.

Shooting a pilot descending in a parachute has long been contrary to international law and conventions. The pistol carried by the descending pilot is insufficient to "wage war" with, but is a reasonable means of immediate self-defense from those who may first encounter the pilot on the ground with hostile intent - until lawful authorities arrive and capture the pilot in accordance with law and conventions.

By the way, many western air forces equip pilots with survival gear with which to cope with whatever conditions they find themselves in after a premature "landing". The pistol can be used and one of the tools for living off the land and protection until SAR or the local authorities arrive.

Now, as far as international law is concerned - where does Syria fit in? The Syrian government itself is guilty of numerous atrocities which would earn it a front row seat as the accused in an international court. ISIL has not exactly been a model of compliance with any law.

The Turkish act against the Russian airplane was probably not wise, but it was reasoned. This and other Russian airplanes have both been violating Turkish airspace in spite of adequate warnings and bombing Turkish allies, rather than ISIL, on the ground in Syria near the Turkish border. Remember that Turkey is adjacent to all this violence and would naturally wish to influence events in favor of their own security. It doesn't really matter where the SU-24 was when hit by the missile. The airplane had already crossed Turkish airspace more than once and can be classified as "unfriendly". The airspace was not exactly under Syria control at the time either, so claims of violating Syrian airspace sounds a bit strange considering all the US, French and other air activity over the country.

[melmothtw]

Courtney, everything you have said is blindingly obvious to all right thinking people. PPRUNE is a broad church though, and not all the congregation is right thinking unfortunately. Far from it in some cases.

[Courtney Mil]

Thank you, Mel. Well put.

[SkyHawk-N]

The airspace was not exactly under Syria control at the time either, so claims of violating Syrian airspace sounds a bit strange considering all the US, French and other air activity over the country.

The difference being that the US, French and other air activity is not trying to shooting down Russian aircraft.

Like it or not but Syria has a sovereign government, Russia is there at their invite and it looks like Turkey launched a missile into Syrian airspace to destroy an aircraft that they knew was of no danger to Turkey itself. This was a political move to prevent Russia taking on Turkey's proxy fighters in Syria, and to prevent any knock on help being given to the Kurds. Turkey is certainly no paragon of virtue.

On a side note, Turkey is also probably miffed with Russia for pointing out and destroying the 1,000s of the Daesh oil tankers that were supplying Turkey with cheap oil.

[PhilipG]

Picking up on the agenda point above.

There has been a lot of comment that the Russian air effort was not initially focussed on the elimination of IS.

There are reports that the Turks had made comments to the Russians about not breaching the territorial integrity of Turkey after some previous incursions or very close calls.

So the Russian targeting strategy was alleged to have changed and they were focussing on IS. One could then ask why were they bombing Turkman "rebel forces", next to the Turkish Border, as I understand it the Turkmen are staunch foes of Bashar al-Assad, having not really been recognised as an ethnic group by the Syrian Government, according to the BBC web site the Turks have trained and I assume equipped the Turkmen.

I have never heard of the Turkmen being allied to IS, indeed there are reports of the Turkmen and Kurdish forces fighting IS. Implicitly attacking the well equipped Turkmen is contrary to the stated Russian aim of destroying IS/ISIL etc.

So was Russia attacking Turkmen near the Turkish border in the hope of getting Turkey to respond as it did? And of course why? To split NATO and Turkey?

Remembering that the Syrians shot down a Turkish F4 for a not dissimilar incursion a few years ago, was the Su 24 obviously a Russian one in any case as the Syrian Air Force has them I understand.

[SkyHawk-N]

Then Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stated in 2012 that a “short-term border violation can never be a pretext for attack” after a Turkish jet was shot down over Syrian territory

Seems Turkey's Prime Minister is something of a hypocrite.

Russia accuses Turkey of 'hypocrisy' after Erdogan admits airspace violation 'does not justify attack' | Europe | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-accuses-turkey-of-hypocrisy-after-erdogan-himself-says-airspace-violation-does-not-justify-a6748146.html)

[Courtney Mil]

I agree with your point, SkyHawk. Interesting to note that Russia has said it will not cut off gas supplies to Turkey over this. This leads me back to your earlier question, which got slightly lost in the morality of bombing thread drift. A Russian news presenter interviewed on BBC's Newsnight last night appeared to know that Russia now intends to add fighter escort to its aircraft in that area (although she mistakenly said bombers). I doubt it currently suits their agenda to escalate this too much.

A question I haven't seen asked yet. As the Russians were shot at by 'moderate forces', killing one of their pilots and a naval infantryman, and destroying a Mi-8 helicopter being used in the rescue, does that now make them a legitimate Russian target?

Now that is an interesting point. I'm sure they will argue that it does in that they pose a clear threat to their operational objectives. And, as you say, they have some legal right to be operating in Syria at the invitation of the national leadership - like it or not. So I would think that Turkey's little game play here may well have handed Russia the trump card they needed to fend off any international pressure to focus on ISIS instead of the rebels.

[The Civil Civillian]

Roland Pulfrew (http://www.pprune.org/members/3827-roland-pulfrew)
Quote:
To who? In who's eyes is it legal, ethical or moral?
The International Criminal Court for one???


Well I'm sure that's a comfort to any bomber pilot that hits the silk over enemy territory! I wonder why the Rules of War, the Treaties and Conventions didn't save this Russian pilot or his poor Jordanain opponent burnt alive in a cage?

Why is it that organised regular forces pay heed to conventions & treaties but irregular forces not seem keen?

What's the link?

[The Civil Civillian]

Courtney Mil (http://www.pprune.org/members/375756-courtney-mil): It is clearly lost on you.

Sheesh.. it's like arguing with a female complete with pithy comments, erronious alegations & personal accusations. You even accusing me of having certain thoughts and I havn't had that since the dark ages ended before a judge!
Courtney? That the female spelling?

[Exnomad]

Irrespective of who violated who's air space, in view of the situation in that area, I woul have thouight a very stiff note to the Russians would have been a better response.
There is no good outcome.
Some of the people fighting Assad are worse than Assad.

[Pontius Navigator]

Why is it that organised regular forces pay heed to conventions & treaties but irregular forces not seem keen?

What's the link?

Save my fingers, tell me.

[handleturning]

\Well well well, Courtney accused of being a woman. Seen everything now.

[handleturning]

Why cut of Turkey's gas supply when you can keep bombing their oil pipelines? Cut off their oil and hit Daesh in the pocket in one go. Simples!

[Mach Two]

Philip G,

Your conclusions are correct. But not only are the northern rebels Turkish trained and supported, they also have a good deal of US equipment.

CM and SkyHawkN,

I have heard similar thoughts here too. It may be a day or two before we hear much more, but Putin is never going to miss an opportunity like this. He will certainly be back with greater self-protection and he certainly won't shift his objectives.

The Civil Civillian,

I recommend dropping that line of argument - probably worth a different thread if you wish to discuss morality legality and International Law. Apart from anything else you've just descended into personal abuse and a rather childish tone. Not welcome here.

I've done some fag-packet maths too and although I can find a couple of ways to make the time of flight 40 seconds (roughly the time between Su 24 leaving Turkish airspace and missile impact) they don't easily work with the alleged positions on any of the published plots.

M2

[Tashengurt]

\Well well well, Courtney accused of being a woman. Seen everything now.

Nah, I've stripped him down to his undies. If he's a woman he's hiding it well!

[NutLoose]

Up until they capture you, you're a (valuable) enemy combatant capable of returning on missions swinging in your harness. One of the crew escaped so there's no guarantee that they were going to capture the Russians.It's war!


CC.

Define how you know they are able to even walk or are even armed when hanging on a chute 500 ft in the air, you appear already to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.
Are you even aware of the injuries that can be caused by a simple ejection, let alone those from having your aircraft blown out from under you?
you obviously are showing your naivety by assuming that it is like WW2 film where a pilot can simply bale out, have tea and tiffen and be back in the air the same day, an ejection and the injuries incured are in a total different ballpark.
Where would you draw the line, shoot them on a parachute in the air, lying wounded on the ground? escaping on foot, as a prisoner of war?
I would suggest you read up on ejection injuries before making such rash comments...

As for Courtney.... show us your leg dear :E

[BEagle]

Tashengurt, are you sure you're not confusing him with one of your Jag mates ?

[The Civil Civillian]

CC.

Define how you know they are able to even walk or are even armed when hanging on a chute 500 ft in the air, you appear already to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.
Are you even aware of the injuries that can be caused by a simple ejection, let alone those from having your aircraft blown out from under you?
you obviously are showing your naivety by assuming that it is like WW2 film where a pilot can simply bale out, have tea and tiffen and be back in the air the same day, an ejection and the injuries incured are in a total different ballpark.
Where would you draw the line, shoot them on a parachute in the air, lying wounded on the ground? escaping on foot, as a prisoner of war?
I would suggest you read up on ejection injuries before making such rash comments...

As for Courtney.... show us your leg dear :E


Mensa member?

One Russian escaped. His friend couldn't because ???

;)

[ExRAFRadar]

Tourist:

If self defence is allowed, then why can I not carry a pistol in the UK?

Because it is against the law. You have the right to self defence but you do not have the right to carry a pistol.

Not rocket science.

Civil Civilian, after that crap about the female spelling you may want to think about losing the 'Civil' bit.

As for your assertion that dropping bombs on people who only have rifles is somehow, what word shall I use, unfair, I suggest you are not very familiar with the application of Air Power.

Or indeed the history of armed Warfare.

[Courtney Mil]

Nah, I've stripped him down to his undies. If he's a woman he's hiding it well!

Oh, God, yes. I am afraid that's actually true. But it was for a reason. Ah, happy days!

Mach 2, I see your forty seconds and raise you 20, but as you say that doesn't fit the plot. So I'm pretty sure this was not in defence of Turkish airspace.

Next question, of course, is if Russia were to act (as I mentioned, unlikely), how would NATO treat an Article 5 request from Turkey when opinion is that they acted illegally? But then, Article 5 doesn't actually state that other nations have to act, does it?

[Pontius Navigator]

CC, you are cherry picking and ignoring posts you can't answer. If you want to leave the room feel free or someone may show you the door.

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, remind us, do all members have to agree?

[ExRAFRadar]

BBC reporting Pilot claims Turkey never issued warnings

'Turkey gave no warning' - downed Russian pilot - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34925229)

[MACH2NUMBER]

There's none so deaf as he who cannot hear!

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Tash
Nah, I've stripped him down to his undies. If he's a woman he's hiding it well!
Courtney
Oh, God, yes. I am afraid that's actually true. But it was for a reason. Ah, happy days!


Foreplay? :E



........

[Lonewolf_50]

Courtney? That the female spelling?Uncivil, that. A personal request here: please either raise your game or play in another sand box. FWIW, the mods prefer that we play the ball and not the man.
One Russian escaped. His friend couldn't because
??? He got shot under the chute.

Note for whom this forum exists: it's in the description.
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here. While no few of us are retired and former, that's more or less whose sandbox you are in.

[Courtney Mil]

No, PN, they do not.

Lonewolf, correct.

Nutty, no, much more business-like than that.

M2N, or those that choose not to!

[NutLoose]

Mensa member?

One Russian escaped. His friend couldn't because ???

And you are assuming they came down in the same point, and that the survivor was uninjured, the front line could be metres apart and he could of been carried back from the front, his friend couldn't because he was murdered before he hit the ground. You are aware seats do not come out the same side at the same time, no probably not.

[handleturning]

There's a lot he's not aware of.

I've never stripped Courtney down (he's too short for my tastes). But I think I saw him ride a horse into Bentley Priory mess. Then again that could be failing memory.

[Courtney Mil]

I'm afraid that's true too.

[taxydual]

A thought.

What language were the Turkish Air Defence Centre speaking?

What language were the Russian's understanding?

What frequency was being used (243.0?).


I recall a 4 ship of XI Sqn F3's going to Akronelli from Leeming and the French launching their QRA against them. Even the Buchan MC (a brilliant female whose name I cannot recall) who had direct comms with the French, and had major difficulty co-ordinating the flight.

[Royalistflyer]

Surely its fairly obvious by now that "Civil Civilian" and mr Eclectic" are civilians who have never served in the Air Force, probably never flown- certainly not combat aircraft and are simply trolls. Surely there's a way of banning them? They just waste time.

[Pontius Navigator]

TCC as a long time member of this forum has a history of jumping in with both feet as a browse of his history will show.
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/417589-ba-pilots-cc-current-dispute.html

[MACH2NUMBER]

Unfortunately, Civi 'trolls' have not the faintest clue of the stress and the instant decisions required by a military fast jet fighter pilot, least of all compliance with law and rules of engagement. These are oft-times vague and very confusing. If you get them wrong, you carry the can. Consider your own souls, do not lecture us who have faced and those who still face these dilemmas.

[ExRAFRadar]

probably never flownIn fairness a few of us on here who post have never flown.

Personally at OASC they advised me that I was, and here I quote, "To good looking, charming, fit, intelligent and handsome" to be a Fast Jet pilot.

Yes they did use 'good looking' and 'handsome' in the same sentence.

I replied "What, even a Harrier God?" as the Sun came out and created a halo effect around my golden locks.

"Yes" they replied, "Stay a Scopie, we need good scope dopes."

That was me sorted

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBmL_5V9TSE

US military spokesman stated on US TV yesterday that US military heard the warnings.

Supposed Turkish AF audio played on US TV within last hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haOGQmn-Yks

[ShotOne]

Well, excluding folk just because we disagree with them isn't really how we do things here, royalist.

In this conflict hundreds of thousands of non-combatants, women, children and old folk have been slaughtered in their homes, schools, and hospitals. If we're exempting categories of people from attack,surely combatants who have seconds earlier been pouring fire and destruction come some way down the list? I very much doubt the rebel/terrorist group has signed -or even heard of - the Geneva convention. Perhaps we should have considered that before handing them what looked like a TOW missile system.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shot, your right except most State forces comply with conventions and treaties.

In war people get killed. Death tends to be fatal and can be very painful too. Scientists, engineers and soldiers have developed ingenious and more lethal methods of delivering death.

Over time humanity has written rules to make death surer and swifter and horribly disabling systems banned.

Obvious weapons are gas and biological. More recent is land mines. Killing disabled combatants is another. Less memorable is banning dumdum rounds, introducing the full metal jacket reduced bullet fragmentation, introducing small calibre high velocity rounds overcomes that ban.

The problem today is the clash between State and non-State forces.

[MACH2NUMBER]

I do not want civi opinions excluded, just a little more open-mindedness and understanding when straying out of their own territory.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Russia has announced that it is going to deploy the S-400 SAM system to Latakia Air Base in Syria.

S-400 / NATO Reporting Name SA-21 Growler

S-400 Triumph Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/s-400-triumph-air-defence-missile-system/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_(missile)

Fencer at Latakia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0pTcM4DBm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzl7sgTgdjk

Latakia DOB Living Conditions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weMCSht4pok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5uB3FI_w_M

[taxydual]

RAFEngO

Thanks for that. (your #180)

A 17 second transmission (blind) that could change the World.

Very, very sad.

[al_renko]

Fantastic tactical move by the Turks shooting down the "Fencer" or maybe not,there is so much "back stabbing" double dealing going on by all parties involved and not involved as to make anything possible.

[Background Noise]

I don't think we can rely on any of the info that we hear or see in the media.

Even if a transmission was made, we can't be sure the other bloke heard it. Not hearing it doesn't mean it wasn't made. We don't really know when or how the deceased pilot died or whether the other one survived. Can we say for certain that the chap seen from the back on the news was actually the other pilot - or even a pilot at all?

[tubby linton]

I believe that the deceased aviator was a Lt. Col, was he the squadron boss? What nav system does the Sukhoi have?Would some ins drift explain their overflight?

[ORAC]

Could be nav kit - I understand they use off the shelf GPS, but I recall when GW1 occurred and when the bombs started dropping in the wrong place it was because the maps provided by the Saudis were all in the local geodetic datum and the GR1 kit was hard wired for Europe - and where are the joins on their UTM/MGRS maps? We learnt a lot from that about OOA ops, one wonders if the Russians have the same sort of problems. Assuming they were even provided with charts - I imagine the Syrians don't have a fully operating ordnance service available these days.

The surviving Russian crew member also states they, "knew the area like the back of their hands", after a couple of weeks? I would suggest they didn't even know the Turkish territory salient existed - and he didn't at the time when giving his press statement.

[West Coast]

Anyone expect the surviving crewmember to say anything different than what he said wrt border incursion?

[GlobalNav]

"Anyone expect the surviving crewmember to say anything different than what he said wrt border incursion?"

He couldn't possibly have been influenced by Vladimir.

[tubby linton]

My russian is not up to translating this but the Fencers have an upgraded nv kit.
??????????, ??????? ???????, ??????-??????????? ???????, ??????????? ?????????, ??????? ???????? ???, ??????? ???, ??????? ???????, ??????, ???????, ???, ?????, ????????, ??????, ??????-???????????, ???????, ????????? ???????, ??????? ???????, ?????? (http://bastion-karpenko.ru/svp-24-gefest/)

[tartare]

I wouldn't believe what the Russian navigator says for a second. He'll be saying exactly what he's told to say.
I reckon they knew exactly where they were - were probably complacent thinking the Turks wouldn't dare shoot - and next thing they knew, they had an AIM-9 up their jacksie.

[AreOut]

Even if a transmission was made, we can't be sure the other bloke heard it. Not hearing it doesn't mean it wasn't made. We don't really know when or how the deceased pilot died or whether the other one survived. Can we say for certain that the chap seen from the back on the news was actually the other pilot - or even a pilot at all?

yupp, if I got that right turkish pilots used 121.5 MHz, frequency which Russians use only in emergency situations, so they are likely both right in that respect...if they thought there would be any chance of missiles fired upon them they would certainly listen to that frequency, actually they wouldn't go there at all without fighter escort

[Lima Juliet]

If this is true from 2012 then you have to wonder if this wasn't a long winded retaliation:

Russia told Assad to shoot down Turkish plane, murder captured pilots, 'leaked Syrian documents' show | The Times of Israel (http://www.timesofisrael.com/turkish-pilots-were-murdered-by-asads-regime-after-he-downed-their-plane-at-russias-suggestion-documents-show/)

:cool:

[NutLoose]

Civis
I do not want civi opinions excluded, just a little more open-mindedness and understanding when straying out of their own territory.

I totally agree, you need people posting with opposite views, it makes the debate more interesting and allows you to put across a counter view that will hopefully enlighten them as to the way things operate. After all without that knowledge you cannot come to a reasoned understanding.

[Phil_R]

With that in mind, I propose that in any future conflict where an armed, angry enemy combatant parachutes into my back yard, Courtney should be the first out of the door to see if he's in surrendering mood.

[Lonewolf_50]

If this is true from 2012 then you have to wonder if this wasn't a long winded retaliation:

Russia told Assad to shoot down Turkish plane, murder captured pilots, 'leaked Syrian documents' show | The Times of Israel (http://www.timesofisrael.com/turkish-pilots-were-murdered-by-asads-regime-after-he-downed-their-plane-at-russias-suggestion-documents-show/)

:cool:
Leon, that smells of fish.
Fish left sitting on the docks for a few days.

[Courtney Mil]

Phil R, if I hear of any such event on TOWIE I'll be right round to check.

Are Out, hopefully 243MHz.

[Tankertrashnav]

I've been unwell for a few days so haven't been keeping up with this thread. I've had a quick read through, but apologise if this point has already been covered.

Re shooting aircrew in their parachutes from the ground. There is plenty of evidence that this practice was at the very least not unknown in WW2. A famous example of course is Flt Lt James Nicholson, who won the only Victoria Cross for the Battle of Britain. After bailing out from his burning Hurricane over Hampshire, Nicholson was fired on as he landed by a Home Guard who mistook him for a German, and sustained shotgun wounds to add to his burns. Not sure what the policy was, although I'm sure shooting on your own side was not permitted!

More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game. Whether this opinion was widely held I dont know, but at least it demonstrates that the practice is not some new barbaric product of the current hostilities.

[NutLoose]

Phil R combat troops I.e Paras are legitimate targets. See the link I posted earlier.


Possibly the main reason Russia is getting embroiled.

Syria, Turkey, Israel and a Greater Middle East Energy War, by F. William Engdahl (http://www.voltairenet.org/article176200.html)


One should imagine this is all a big poker game by Putin, lose the gas income and his position is then tenuous and he will be gone, so he is forced into a never ending upward spiralling course of action to maintain his position.


.

[Wokkafans]

Russian pilot being rescued by Hezbollah

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUrjeeLWsAAWiOI.png

[AreOut]

More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game.

yupp but it would likely be different if it was over german territory and german ground troops could take them alive

[The Civil Civillian]

NutLoose
And you are assuming they came down in the same point, and that the survivor was uninjured, the front line could be metres apart and he could of been carried back from the front, his friend couldn't because he was murdered before he hit the ground. You are aware seats do not come out the same side at the same time, no probably not.

Hey Mensa, I'm not assuming anything. I simply said one got away and asked you why the second didn't?

.......


By the way, I see now why the rough ride... I'd, unwittingly, equated the shooting of helpless parachutists with all who deposit ordinance on those below even though I qualified my point in that the equality was that the targetted couldn't hit back at their assailants. I was thinking of this local border clash and didn't realise I was painting all air force pilots with that same brush. I guess that hit the wrong target?

[MAINJAFAD]

More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game.


The pilot's name was Hugh Dowding and when he said it to Churchill, Winston was gobsmacked. Goring did suggest such an action as policy to his Fighter wing leaders during the Battle of Britain, and the Fighter commanders refused point blank to even think of doing it.

[peter we]

BBC reporting Pilot claims Turkey never issued warnings


They were first warned on 6th October

Nato condemns Russia over violations of Turkey's airspace | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/05/turkey-says-russian-warplane-violated-airspace)


They continued to deliberately violate NATO's airspace on multiple further occasions, each time with formal protest from Turkey.

Russia is NOT the West's ally, their primary goal is to destroy NATO by proving its a cowardly feeble organisation who will not defend itself.

NATO did exactly what it had to do in case (and matching its public statements) of an unconventional attack by Russia... unflinching self defence.

NATO has to do the same thing to the Russians in the Baltic's, Putin will back off. Its the only thing they understand.

[SkyHawk-N]

Here is an interesting ANNA News (Russian) video about the SU-24 pilot rescue.

LiveLeak.com - EXCLUSIVE * Footage and true story of Syrian Army Rescuing Second Russian Pilot and Helicopter Crew

Interesting that they report that the missile which hit the SU-24 was travelling west to east.

[SkyHawk-N]

Even the US State Dept. spokesman dos not condemn the shooting of the parachuting Russian Air Force crewman...."They have every right to defend themselves". Not a very clever thing to say IMHO.

LiveLeak.com - Rescue Operation For Russian Pilot + USA Defending Militant Shooting Parachuted Pilot

[Trim Stab]

Watch this video of the destruction of the Russian rescue helicopter. At 22 sec, you can see that one of the operators is wearing what appears to be an ISIS T-shirt.

22.Saniye T?örte Dikkat Rus Helikopterini Vuran Türkmen De?il I??D Ç?kt? (http://www.arizali.tv/22-saniye-tsorte-dikkat-rus-helikopterini-vuran-turkmen-degil-isid-cikti)

If they were ISIS affiliates, it does rather beg the question what they were doing with sophisticated US-supplied weapons.

[camelspyyder]

All this talk of legitimate targets is all very well, and I totally believe in LOAC.

However, I doubt whether bands of border tribesmen in a backward part of the globe have ever heard of it, let alone signed in Geneva to fight under its rules.

[Cows getting bigger]

Indeed. "If it moves, shoot it" is often the philosophy.

[RileyDove]

'They continued to deliberately violate NATO's airspace on multiple further occasions, each time with formal protest from Turkey.'

All of this is completely different to Turkey shelling the Kurds in Syria as they have done for many years?

[AreOut]

Hey Mensa, I'm not assuming anything. I simply said one got away and asked you why the second didn't?

the second was lucky, wind has blown him couple of miles further to no man's land where russian helicopters could rescue him altough it was very very near terrorist controlled territory, near enough for a TOW to hit the empty helicopter on the ground

[NutLoose]

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a406/osowo/IMG_1896_zpswvxlfaa3.jpg


:O Not by me I may add.

[Scruffy Fanny]

Back to the point - I think it was an AIM 120 kill - For the following reasons -
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end

[SkyHawk-N]

It didn't take long for S-400 to arrive at Hmeymim Airbase.

yPlI5pqZOKA

[Pontius Navigator]

I guess the S-400 will enforce a buffer zone on the border.

[Wokkafans]

Back to the point - I think it was an AIM 120 kill - For the following reasons -
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end

CombatAir posted an unconfirmed report that it was an AIM-120 but there doesn't appear to be any follow up verification of this.

https://twitter.com/CombatAir/status/669102967245664256

[Cows getting bigger]

Yep, and way beyond Cyprus. :sad:

[SkyHawk-N]

It certainly is a power play. Depending on the model of missiles deployed they can reach the air above much of Syria, Turkey, Cyprus and Israel.

[GlobalNav]

"I guess the S-400 will enforce a buffer zone on the border"

So, only Russian aircraft may fly in this buffer zone? Can they discriminate between Turkish, French and US aircraft? Who would be listening to the Russians anyway, since they apparently don't use Guard frequency?

Light up a Growler and they might get interesting results.

[GlobalNav]

"It certainly is a power play. Depending on the model of missiles deployed they can reach the air above much of Syria, Turkey, Cyprus and Israel"

The IAF might find this an unacceptable risk. I would and if I remember correctly they destroyed SAMs shipped to Syria by Iran. Different situation, but Russia loves Israel about as much as Iran and Syria do. Knotty situation.

Sure would make a good Clancy novel.

[Onceapilot]

All in all, a disgusting situation. I suspect the Russians will now rule the airspace and, claim that ALL airspace movements must be notified to and controlled by them. What a mess!:uhoh:

OAP

[SkyHawk-N]

And not forgetting the Moskva arriving in the area, it sure is a formidable looking ship.

K7OY03nxOCc

[AreOut]

Different situation, but Russia loves Israel about as much as Iran and Syria do. Knotty situation.

Netanyahu is a lot smarter person than turkish president, he won't repeat his mistake. And he was in Moscow just before russian strikes in Syria started, I'm quite sure he has some deal with Putin.

But I bet he is still mad on erdogan for causing Russia to bring S400 to the region.

[RAFEngO74to09]

SA-22 Greyhound also there - see 1:23 onwards in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx9GV_KTVxM

[tartare]

That is a nasty looking piece of kit.
And that Pantsir close in defence thing looks mighty effective as well.

[ORAC]

Mystery Over Who Bombed Turkish convoy allegedly carrying weapons to militants

https://www.rt.com/news/323538-turkey-convoy-syria-attack/

[Yeller_Gait]

Massive difference between SA-22 and S400. Coalition ops in Syria now seriously under threat with the introduction of S400.

Y_G

[ORAC]

Coalition ops in Syria now seriously under threat with the introduction of S400 I'll just repeat the point that the Russian airbase is within artillery range (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-600T_Y%C4%B1ld%C4%B1r%C4%B1m) of Turkey. If I engaged a coalition or Turkish aircraft, I'd hope I had a nice deep hole within close range - and hope the Turks didn't send their special forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Commando_Brigade_(Turkey)). Latakia isn't safe well inside Rodina, but close to the Turkish border and the sea. Nasty fellas the Turks.......

[Pontius Navigator]

YG, if someone kicks your ar^se only sensible to protect it. They can now enforce a buffer zone to prevent blue on red and ensure proper blue/red coordination on their terms. Their toys, their rules.

[Tourist]

Their toys, their rules.

Not really. Yes they have some formidable SAMs in theatre now, but they are by no means the big boys in the playground now. The US could still wipe out their little force in a morning, they just now have a little chance to sting in the process.

And to be honest, the Turks have the capability too.

[camelspyyder]

Moskva is almost antique at 30+ years old. I remember photographing it in 1984!

I'll bet Yamato looked pretty impressive on it's way to Okinawa in '45 too - it still got sunk as it was way out of it's depth (metaphorically speaking).

[pr00ne]

Yeller Gait,


Why?

Why would the Russians threaten coalition ops in any way shape or form?

\

[Just This Once...]

Let's turn that question on its head. Given the recent Russian aggression, annexations, treaty violations and military build-up, why do you think they present no threat?

[Thelma Viaduct]

RAF to look for any unbombed bits of Syria.

DAVID Cameron has called on Britain to flatten the last remaining bumpy bits of Syria.

Making his case for British airstrikes against ISIS, the prime minister told the House of Commons there was an outside lavatory 15 miles from Aleppo that still has its roof attached.

He added: “It stands there, being a toilet, brazenly defying our values. If not now, when?”

The prime minster then listed seven other small buildings across Syria that remain structurally sound, including a newsagent, a car wash and a fruit kiosk that could be sheltering up 20,000 ISIS maniacs.

He added: “We have learned the lessons of Iraq. Too many buildings were left standing in Iraq. And it was in those buildings that ISIS was formed.

“We will only bring peace to the Middle East when all the buildings have been destroyed and everyone has to stand around in the street.”

Meanwhile, Cameron has not ruled out sending troops to Syria to jump up and down on any small bits of the country still sticking out of the ground in a campaign codenamed ‘Operation Snooker Table.

[CoffmanStarter]

Well ... So President Putin has deployed some mean looking hardware ... He's got a swanky new War Room in Moscow ...

Perhaps all he needs now is a White Persian Cat to stroke on his lap :suspect:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/2EBB222100000578-0-image-a-45_1448282090995_zpsoyvtf8g6.jpg

Image Credit : Russian Government (I guess)

[Army Mover]

Well ... So President Putin has deployed some mean looking hardware ... He's got a swanky new War Room in Moscow ...

Perhaps all he needs now is a White Persian Cat to stroke on his lap :suspect:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/2EBB222100000578-0-image-a-45_1448282090995_zpsoyvtf8g6.jpg

Image Credit : Russian Government (I guess)

and not a coffee cup or any yums yums anywhere in sight; strange place.

I do like how they are all sat in their little "arms" blocks though.

[pr00ne]

Just This Once,

Because we are bombing IS, they too are bombing IS, amongst others, so why does the deployment of a defensive SAM system present a threat to us?

[Yeller_Gait]

Pr00ne
Why?

Why would the Russians threaten coalition ops in any way shape or form?
Up until now there has been no serious and credible threat to western coalition aircraft operating in Syria. Now there is. Simple. It is a game changer, the west cannot afford to lose another aircraft.

Good answer from Just This Once too.

Y_G

[MPN11]

Is there not an underlying concern that Russian Command and Control may not be quite as effective/efficient/safe as we would wish?

[pr00ne]

Yeller Gait,

What?

Why can't the west afford to lose another aircraft? The aircraft that was lost was Russian, shot down by the West, by Turkey, a full member of NATO. Are you getting a little confused?


MPN11,

You make a good point, they do have history here.

[Courtney Mil]

I would have thought the threat was obvious. With all that hardware in the air operated by, France, US, Turkey, UK, Russia, Syria; precious little coordination, deconfliction or airspace control, no common IFF measures; a couple of nations that now have a grudge issue and a load of very capable surface-to-air systems, it's another shoot down, frag or mid air waiting to happen.

All those lessons we taught on TLT seem to have been forgotten.

[pr00ne]

Courtney Mil,

Fair point, but so far the main problem would seem to be presented by Turkey...

[Pontius Navigator]

Which is why they can now enforce a buffer zone.

As for the US taking out the Russian SAM can you imagine the CinC giving the order? It would be a short cut to a hot war. Whacking a Turkish F16 could even be accepted as just even.

[Tourist]

As for the US taking out the Russian SAM can you imagine the CinC giving the order? It would be a short cut to a hot war.

That also goes for the Russians taking out a Nato aircraft with their new SAMs.

Russia is no longer in the same league as Nato conventionally, and they know it.

[Just This Once...]

Just This Once,

Because we are bombing IS, they too are bombing IS, amongst others, so why does the deployment of a defensive SAM system present a threat to us?

So after careful analysis you think this SAM system is deployed to defend themselves from an IS air attack?

Is that the best you have?

:\

[pr00ne]

Just this once...

No, don't be ridiculous. I don't think it's deployed to threaten RAF aircraft.

Do you?

[Just This Once...]

Yes, I believe it is a credible threat to all aircraft not allied to Assad and that their deployment was designed to be escalatory.

But still interested in your analysis and as you have acknowledged there is no air threat from IS, just who do you think the SAMs are there to threaten?