MIG 21 QUERY......

[DOC.400]

Gents
Have a query form a pal of mine in the special effects industry -can anybody throw some light on this? Thanks in advance!!

".....would a MIG-21 use air brakes or speed brakes in e.g. tight turns ? We are starting with the animation of a sequence for a Franco US film and we have a MIG-21 finding a Hughes AH-6 repeatedly attacking going past and re-attacking in hilly terrain… I know modern planes like the MIG-29 and SU-37 and such do use them (at least during air shows) when doing high maneuverability sort of stuff… but then in a real fight it feels like loosing speed is sort of the worst thing to do really … do you have any idea about that ?....."

[Rosevidney1]

I'm pretty sure that just about every delta of that vintage would rapidly lose speed in a turn. As far as I'm aware the MiG-21 didn't have speed brakes.

[Evalu8ter]

Doc,
Bevo is probably your Fishbed man, but from 'the other side' having done affil and taught evasion training extensively I'd suggest that only a foolish FJ pilot would bleed his energy (and the -21 bleeds very well.....) to try to stay with a helo in terrain. Slashing attacks (provided you can gain/retain tally and extend) would be preferable, and offers the chance of employing the full gamut of weapons. Indeed, there is also the tale of a C-130 getting a manoeuvre kill against a -21 in hilly terrain over N Vietnam.

The AH-6 is very hard to see, turns on a sixpence and will likely shoot back. Google J-CATCH to get an idea of how hard it can be. In terrain it would be hard for the -21 to acquire and track using the radar. Courtney may well have something to add! ;-)

If you're still in Egham, say hello to the chataux on the top of the hill for me next time you're passing........

[Kitbag]

MiG-21s did have speed brakes:

http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/kraft/21support.jpg

You can see them just behind the ladder. As for when and how they were used....

[Rosevidney1]

Indeed they did have airbrakes, Kitbag. A person of my years should not trust to memory! I have re-read the Pilot's Notes for the MiG-21 bis and sure enough tucked away in the hydraulic system info the air brakes are mentioned. I apologise to everyone for my error.

[ORAC]

........On the belly of the plane there are three air brakes, two at the front and one at the back. The front brakes have an area of 0.76 m², and a deflection angle of 35°. The back one has an area of 0.46 m² and a deflection angle of 40°. The usage of the back air brake is blocked if the plane carries an external fuel tank.......

[Bevo]

Most of the responses so far have been right on. You are never going to “out turn” and AH-64 (or A-10 for that matter) by slowing down even in a MiG-21. There is very little chance of getting a radar lock on a low level AH-64 in the MiG-21 in any of its variants including the Chinese F-7.

Having done some air-to-air tactics development against helicopters and A-10s in the F-15 I can tell you that the only viable tactic was to get a radar lock and use missiles, although IR missiles aren’t great against a ground background if the target is at low level. Getting into a gun fight with an AH-64 (or A-10) is a risky proposition.

[DOC.400]

Thanx for the response guys -I suspected as much!!! Will pass on....

And I'll give HC a wave on the way past Evalu8er!!

[AR1]

We have some practical experience of the - Mt Kent 1982. IIRC 1 Sqn Harriers engaged a couple of Helicopters in the valley north of Mount Kent. after the initial attack with CBU's a second pass was required with cannon (there may have been a third pass), one of the targets being a Huey that was air taxied, again IIRC it wasn't hit. But one of the attackers took some small arms. I'm sure there's someone on the forum that can flesh that scenario out.

[DOC.400]

Gents -once again, many thanks for your feedback. Just got this e-mail from my pal.

'.......cool input indeed, confirming the direction I sort tried to encourage in our story :-)
Looked at a lot of Mach loop footage and Random airshow MIG-21 videos for inspiration.

MIG zooming past coming around and attacking again, chopper ducking low in the valleys and lake side arms, hopping over a ridge etc. and 2-3 MIG passes , eventually AH-6 reappearing behind a ridge facing the approaching MIG and hitting the MIG as it’s puling up/to the side / is veering off… I had 3 ½ days in the camera Helicopter air 2 air with the AH-6 aka MD-520 which was real fun !!

The only sad thing is that you basically confirm that the MIG-21 would not really deploy the speed brakes aka air brakes even in tight turns, as for any fighter keeping the speed is more important than a bit tighter turn… sort of what I expected. I was just looking for some visually interesting bits for the steep turns… we mights till do it once :-) we also might make the turns a bit tighter / MIG-29-ish that we should, the vector thrust like turns just look more sexy … I think artistic license it’s called....

BTW the MIG-21 seems to be or have been a really great plane… interesting read from secret US tests :-) .....'

He did send me a link to the latter -20 pages of interesting reading!!

Just FYI these are a couple of the name films he worked on special effects:-

Mel Gibson -The Patriot

The Day After Tomorrow.....

[Thelma Viaduct]

Gents -once again, many thanks for your feedback. Just got this e-mail from my pal.

'.......cool input indeed, confirming the direction I sort tried to encourage in our story :-)
Looked at a lot of Mach loop footage and Random airshow MIG-21 videos for inspiration.

MIG zooming past coming around and attacking again, chopper ducking low in the valleys and lake side arms, hopping over a ridge etc. and 2-3 MIG passes , eventually AH-6 reappearing behind a ridge facing the approaching MIG and hitting the MIG as it’s puling up/to the side / is veering off… I had 3 ½ days in the camera Helicopter air 2 air with the AH-6 aka MD-520 which was real fun !!

The only sad thing is that you basically confirm that the MIG-21 would not really deploy the speed brakes aka air brakes even in tight turns, as for any fighter keeping the speed is more important than a bit tighter turn… sort of what I expected. I was just looking for some visually interesting bits for the steep turns… we mights till do it once :-) we also might make the turns a bit tighter / MIG-29-ish that we should, the vector thrust like turns just look more sexy … I think artistic license it’s called....

BTW the MIG-21 seems to be or have been a really great plane… interesting read from secret US tests :-) .....'

He did send me a link to the latter -20 pages of interesting reading!!

Just FYI these are a couple of the name films he worked on special effects:-

Mel Gibson -The Patriot

The Day After Tomorrow.....

Sunday I believe.

[SASless]

I found this to be interesting reading....

http://www.imagery.vnfawing.com/PDF-Archive/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-and-Maneuvering.pdf

[Mogwi]

My first FJ kill on a helo was with wing-tip vortices (480ish kts 10 ft above the rotor disc). Next was with 30mm against a rocket and gun-armed A109A. Slashing attacks are the only way to get the separation required for missile or gun solutions but if he had started squirting metal back at me, I would have headed for the coffee bar!

[Rosevidney1]

An excellent link, SASless. Well worth downloading for future reference.