What's the point of University Air Squadrons?

[handleturning]

My son recently applied to join his UAS (I won't say which one) and was told at the Freshers Fair, he was unlikely to get in as his degree was a difficult one which would 'restrict his ability to fully commit to the UAS programme' (he's studying Aeronautical Engineering). Under normal circumstances I'd assume this was because my son is a spanner (he can be) and was being let down gently. However, I'm now aware of a mate of his who I'd say was a shoe in for the RAF (3xA* A Levels, D of E Gold, Lord Lieutenants Cadet, representative sports etc etc) who was rejected for the same reason. So, is the UAS just an outdated social club with a bit of flying thrown in or does it actually serve a need in helping the RAF recruit the sort of talent it needs.

[CoffmanStarter]

Cue BEagle ...

[Easy Street]

I think your analysis of the situation is 180 degrees out. They're certainly not 'outdated social clubs' any more, which is part of the problem. After all, if they were social clubs with flying attached, there would be no worries about 'restricting his ability to fully commit to the UAS programme', because even the most arduous degree courses leave some time for evening social activities. At this point I should note that the original function of UAS was NOT to recruit anyone, but to leave a good impression of the RAF among the future great-and-good (a superb example of the foresight with which Trenchard established his fledgling force).

Because UASs are now so narrowly focussed on their modern-day task of 'helping the RAF recruit the sort of talent it needs', they have a massively reduced emphasis on flying (which, back in the day, was something that students could schedule around their study commitments) and a greatly increased emphasis on things like leadership development and adventurous training (which, being group activities planned in advance, do not offer the same kind of scheduling flexibility).

I am afraid that my analysis does not answer your concern as to precisely why apparently-suitable individuals are knocked back. But I can guarantee you that it is not down to some antediluvian 'social club with flying' outlook. Probably the opposite.

[Pontius Navigator]

There are Naval equivalents and a nephew was focused on a career as an engineer. He went to Welbeck and then RN sponsorship at Newcastle. Now in his 2nd year the Navy owns him body and soul with adventure training in holidays and attachments he is busy.

[BEagle]

handleturning, certainly if your lad is reading something like Aero Eng at Impossible College, London, he'd find it difficult to fit in long treks to London (Wittering) aerodrome for his handful of flying hours - or even to attend training nights (if the RAF can still afford them) at the relocated THQ which is now at Northolt, ever since the MoD bean counters flogged off the Brompton Road property to some rich Russian....

Perhaps he should consider the OTC or, if the university has one, an URNU, both of which are rather more experienced at 'a greatly increased emphasis on things like leadership development and adventurous training' and probably offer far more varied opportunities than the kraft durch freude scope of the University Air Cadets?

Anyway, whichever plank advised your son not to bother deserves a kick in the slats. If your son has the commitment and drive to mix serious degree work with what now passes for UAS time, then good luck to him!

[Easy Street]

Following on from BEagle's wise words, I would add that if your son is interested in a RAF career, he should not let this apparent knock-back put him off (too much, anyway). I have had colleagues who were members of the OTC but joined the RAF on graduation. They excelled at IOT, as you might expect.

[handleturning]

Fortunately he has that endless enthusiasm that we all used to have, so this hasn't impacted his view on the RAF. He's at Bristol BEAGLE, which isn't quite such a trek (Colerne).

[Timelord]

My first thought on reading the OP was " I wonder who told him that". I would be very surprised if the official UAS/RAF view was that they didn't want people doing engineering degrees.

[Trim Stab]

Well if it helps, I read aeronautical engineering, joined the UAS and thoroughly enjoyed it - but then ended up joining the army after graduation.

A friend of mine on my degree course was absolutely gutted to be rejected by the UAS, so joined the TA while an undergraduate. On graduation, he joined the RAF, went to Harrier on 1 Squadron, then ETPS.

I think my friend got the better deal!

[handleturning]

I should have added that the advice went on to say that 'we find people doing subjects such as History and Geography can offer more commitment to the UAS than Engineering'. It's a tricky one, analytical subjects certainly have their place, but with a known shortage of engineers I would have thought the RAF would be doing all they can to encourage them. Anyway, enough of my whining, thanks guys all appreciated. Can't believe I'm on PPRUNE extolling the virtues of engineering!

[CoffmanStarter]

HT ...

All the best to your son ... The Country certainly needs Engineers :ok:

[ChristianR354]

During my interview for the UAS I was told that I was competing against people who had 'Back packed across Africa etc'.

Having never had the opportunity to travel to, or across, such destinations, I felt pretty certain I wasn't going to be successful. I wasn't selected, unfortunately. However it's not stopped me from applying to the real thing.

I'm sure anyone who is selected for the UAS will have a great time and there is no stopping someone re-applying in their 2nd (maybe 3rd) year at University.

I still feel a bit gutted to this day I wasn't selected.

Sob.

[Melchett01]

we find people doing subjects such as History or Geography can offer more commitment to the UAS than Engineering

Well so much for a fair selection process that bases its decision on talent rather than fitting a pre-conceived idea. However, it is a fair reflection of an attitude that appears to be prevalent in some areas of the RAF that expects the individual to commit 110% but with substantially less commitment in return. But it's not new and we had a number of engineering, physics and hard sums students on my UAS in the 90s who had a harder ride than those of us doing the likes of Geography and History. Apart from a couple of female engineering students for whom sporadic attendance was overlooked and they were actively helped to stay on the Sqn and fit it in around their studies.

Given the importance in the longer term of getting a decent degree vice running around muddy fields doing 'leadership', I'd say your son had a lucky escape, especially as he will now more than likely be paying for his degree for years to come. University is a place for learning and self discovery, of which the UAS can play a part, but it shouldn't be everything, and whomever interviewed your son needs to wake up to that fact.

[ABL262]

handleturning, I also support BEagle's point of view that whoever advised your son not to apply deserves a kick in the pants. Keep in mind that UAS representatives at Freshers' Fairs are often UAS students who may be biased and not qualified staff. I would put a call into the CO or the Adjutant to escalate his candidacy so that he might at least get to the interview stage.


Sadly, I also agree with the other commentators that the UASs are now a shadow of their former selves at least in terms of flying, but then again I'm biased! ULAS 1984-86 were great times (and, yes, I was studying engineering at Impossible College). In my day it was more like grab as much flying as you can with a (great) social life thrown in. Almost every Wednesday and week-end at RAF Abingdon with a two week Summer camp (St Mawgan and Leeming) and a one week Easter camp each year, plus two week attachments to operational squadrons at Wittering and Chivenor. 105 hours flying in 30 months and a fantastic shop window on life in the RAF of the day.


joining ULAS was the perfect antidote to the stress and pressures of studying an engineering degree in a hot-house university environment and did me the world of good. I wish your son every success in his future endeavours and with whatever career path he chooses.


ABL262

[Jumping_Jack]

I support the comments about the OTC that I've read here. When I went to Uni I had gone with the firm intention of joining the RAF (I had already been given an IOT after A levels but declined it). Like the OP's son, at the Freshers Fair, I approached the UAS as the natural place to go but was struck by their very narrow set of interests. I then had a chat with the guys on the OTC stall and the whole deal was far more attractive. So I spent 3 years having a whale of a time in the 'Armoured Corps Wing', hoofing around the city and county in Foxes and Ferret scout cars and generally having a great time (and getting paid!). Throughout that time I wore my RAF stablebelt (mainly to annoy the Col) and joined the RAF immediately after graduation from Uni. I would echo comments that the OTC syllabus helped me enormously at IOT.

[rolling20]

Back in my day the point was cheap beer, camaraderie, living like a lord in the officers mess, causing mayhem on the airfield after dark, mentioning it to the odd young lady and I believe there was some flying involved.
At a reunion a few years ago I spoke to a current member who had been in for 2 years and had 30mins flying time! As my old CFI said, 'back then we were teaching you to RAF flying training standards'. These days it is a much more rounded place I believe.

[downsizer]

My son recently applied to join his UAS (I won't say which one) and was told at the Freshers Fair, he was unlikely to get in as his degree was a difficult one which would 'restrict his ability to fully commit to the UAS programme' (he's studying Aeronautical Engineering). Under normal circumstances I'd assume this was because my son is a spanner (he can be) and was being let down gently. However, I'm now aware of a mate of his who I'd say was a shoe in for the RAF (3xA* A Levels, D of E Gold, Lord Lieutenants Cadet, representative sports etc etc) who was rejected for the same reason. So, is the UAS just an outdated social club with a bit of flying thrown in or does it actually serve a need in helping the RAF recruit the sort of talent it needs.

Never mind the UAS, the RAF is gagging for EngOs. Has he looked into a bursary? I'd be surprised if the Eng recruiting team weren't interested!

[finncapt]

Rolling 20.

That's how I remember my time in the UAS (Southampton).

It was the best social club going - we even had "grimmy" parties but, I suppose, they would be frowned upon nowadays.

Many of the chaps, no chappesses then, ended up with careers in aviation - not neccessarily the RAF.

How life has moved on, I doubt that, at age 16, you are allowed to keep your Lee Enfield .303 at home if you are in the school CCF nowadays.

Is there a CCF anymore?

[rolling20]

finncapt, ah yes all boys and no girls! Several of my contemporaries did join and a couple unfortunately lost their lives subsequently.
Others however are plying the skies still as senior captains with major airlines and one of our number reached Air rank!

[kenparry]

handleturning,

Check your PMs.

KP

[muppetofthenorth]

Likelihood is that as he and his mate both want to join the RAF anyway they don't want to 'waste' a spot on the UAS with someone who's already convinced they want in. They'd rather use the space to convince people who otherwise wouldn't have thought about it.

Wrong, imo.
(MASUAS 05-08)

[Easy Street]

muppet - By that logic, anyone sponsored through university would not be on the UAS, so I think you're off the mark.

OP - downsizer has a good point regarding a bursary. Your son can still go to OASC as a student without being on the UAS, and might win a bursary for the final 2-3 years of his degree. This would automatically get him onto the UAS where he could take advantage of the flying (with an emphasis on the out-of-term 'camps' due to the intensity of his studies). Could be awkward for the person who told him 'no' if he got in!

[johnfairr]

My son, whose Grandfather, father, God-father, uncle and great uncle were all at one time in the Royal Air Force over the past 75 years, wanted at first to also join the RAF. At age 18 he said to me, "Dad, do you mind if I don't join the RAF?" Natural reaction was to say, fine, your choice, "but out of interest, why not, given you've been nurturing these thoughts for a few years?"

"Well, dad, I might have to kill somebody and I'm not sure I could do that".

My first thoughts were 10/10 for honesty and integrity. I then said "Thank goodness you've come to that decision now and not just before joining a squadron that may be involved with that sort of operation."

End result, he went up to Newcastle Uni, joined the Northumbria UAS, had two terrific years flying out of Leeming, including being taught by one of his godfathers' Squadron QFIs and ended up with a 2:1.

It takes all sort . . . . .

[muppetofthenorth]

muppet - By that logic, anyone sponsored through university would not be on the UAS, so I think you're off the mark.


The RAF has already made the decision that that bursar is too good to lose.
The UAS is deciding that they don't need to spend money on someone who already wants in.

It's an approach I have seen before.

[Chugalug2]

JF:-
"..do you mind if I don't join the RAF?... joined the Northumbria UAS, had two terrific years flying out of Leeming"motn:-
The UAS is deciding that they don't need to spend money on someone who already wants in.Deciding instead to spend money on someone who already doesn't want in? I'm as confused as the OP, and it seems to me he has asked a very pertinent question. I admit though to being a BOF who has had to learn the hard way to regularly switch accounts, policies, and contracts every year to get the best deals. The best way to join a UAS would it seems be to study an "ology" and have no interest in joining the RAF at all...

[muppetofthenorth]

motn:-
Deciding instead to spend money on someone who already doesn't want in?

That's what recruitment is, after all. The people who want to join will come to you, but the people who don't are the ones you have to go seek.

Fwiw, in the case of the UAS I don't agree, I did engineering and still had plenty of time to put lots in to - and get even more out of - the squadron.

[Lima Juliet]

I shouldn't worry but unless your son looks like the picture below then he wouldn't get a look in at the Freshers' Fair UAS Stand in my experience. This is probably why so few end up actually joining the RAF at the end of their UAS time - although a few do get married to the Boss and the QFIs...:E

http://images.esellerpro.com/3239/I/141/23/26854.jpg

PS. My experience of UAS in the 80s/90s was that very few ended up at the top end of their flying training courses. It made me question why we bothered we UAS. However, having now read the line about it being Trenchard's plan in giving RAF experience to the great and good who wouldn't join the military but would go on to be politicians, financial gurus, businessmen, doctors, etc...

[Swil]

HT, as an ex UAS Sqn Cdr x 2 I can understand your bewilderment. I expect things have changed somewhat in the last few years but the bottom line is still likely to be that there are a limited number of places on the UASs and the competition is extremely fierce to get in. Consequently each and every potential UAS member is scrutinised very closely and Freshers is only the first stage.

Without being there it is impossible to say how he "came across" but in my experience, if someone demonstrated a substantiated interest in the RAF/UAS at Freshers and was willing to at least try and make a commitment he would be considered a possible candidate and be placed in the "pool" for the next stage of medical and more formal interview. He would then be "scored" in order of merit along with all the other "potentials" and then it is down to where the cut-off line is, based on how many new students can be accepted in a particular year.

From what you say, your son would, IMO, have been in that second look pool unless he did not come over very well to those he spoke to. Believe it or not I have had students asking me if they had to have a sports car to join and had no clue about either the UAS or the RAF. That said, not much he can do now except try again next year, not much help I'm afraid but the moment has now passed.

[Chugalug2]

LJ:-
It made me question why we bothered we UAS. However, having now read the line about it being Trenchard's plan in giving RAF experience to the great and good who wouldn't join the military but would go on to be politicians, financial gurus, businessmen, doctors, etc... No doubt Trenchard had the right idea when being "air minded" was both very new and very challenging for those who would end up "running things". Since then you would be hard put to find someone today who hadn't savoured of the thrill of endless queues and delays at airports and had air very much in their minds, though not I grant in wholly positive ways.

As to saying no to the likes of the OP's son hankering to join a UAS, it strikes me as a very aloof response to say, "No thanks, you're too keen, we only spend money on those that aren't". As I inferred in my previous post, it smacks of the way that discounts, cashbacks, and reductions, only go to new business customers, the loyalty of the old ones being heavily penalised. If I can learn to be a perpetual new customer, I'm damn sure that the bright young things already have!

The OP says that his son will grin and bear it. Good man! Others though might take umbrage, and find a more welcoming institution. As the OP asks, what is the point?

Strikes me anyway that a JOTC (or UCCF? :-) in place of the three separate offerings might save Johnny Taxpayer and/or the Services some money, as well as promoting the purpleness that now colours all that is defence.

[tmmorris]

LJ:-
Strikes me anyway that a JOTC (or UCCF? :-) in place of the three separate offerings might save Johnny Taxpayer and/or the Services some money, as well as promoting the purpleness that now colours all that is defence.

I've always thought that the cadet forces should be amalgamated into a JCF for similar reasons. The inefficiency in replicating the Army brigade structure and duplicating the HQ functions many times over is depressing.

[condor17]

Well with that attitude from the UAS , there's no chance of the RAF developing another Frank Whittle !

rgds condor

[chopper2004]

You talk about joint cadet forces, when I was in the UOTC, I had the pleasure of exchanging with the local UAS for a days flying with the good old Bulldog.

A year or so later on, when after MTQ2, had a carrot dangled in front of me by my wing CO to be JUO of the Wing, he asked me what changes I would like to see and the future of the UOTC. Likewise the same question popped up day the next day as I bumped into one of our newly commissioned 2lt who was in the other wing happened to be on my train to uni. He asked me my thoughts on the future of the unit so my response I would consider disbanding all the wings and everyone acts as whole. I was told the CO is wing friendly. In my head I was also thinking about more exercising with the UAS and URNU. TBH the only times we came across the others were either a mass lecture / brief by some members of senior folk or the Annual Mess Dinner where the OC of the UAS turned but not any of his crew.

Bearing in mind this was coming up to the late noughties and al three services was about to come into play with each other such as JHC and stuff.

I've said this before but was rebuked, so IMHO, the UAS could be of even more value if it was run like the ROTC programs in the states (most officers get their commissions through their local unis and colleges with ROTC programs )so those who have commitment and pass selection to the UAS (hell they have to go through AOCS anyway for selection) could follow a structured program resulting in being commissioned as P/O albeit in the reserves and transfer that across to full time commissions.

Any thoughts,

cheers

[teeteringhead]

London (Wittering) aerodrome Don't let Mike O'Leary hear you say that ..........:E

[BEagle]

To be sure, to be sure I won't!

chopper2004, when I was a ULAS student in the late '70s, we also had the occasional exchange with ULOTC. Which was rather good because, before PC times, several of their girls were very highly placed in the annual 'Miss TAVR' competition!

For my sins I was 'Senior Student' in my last year and as such was invited to the OTC's Annual Dinner at their THQ. What an epic night that was - I found somewhere to sleep off the worst of it, but driving my MG Midget back to the Halls of Residence in South Woodford the following afternoon with a thumping hangover was rather less than enjoyable...:\

[Haraka]

"when I was a ULAS student in the late '70s,"

the late '70s, Beags???
:)

[muppetofthenorth]

"when I was a ULAS student in the late '70s,"

the late '70s, Beags???
:)

He didn't say which century, Haraka ;)