Really?

[First_In_Last_Out]

PM to get own plane for official trips - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34864328)

I wonder how this will work out in amongst all the other cr*p the undermanned-and-getting-worse fleet are doing...

[DITYIWAHP]

An air refuelling drop in capability, measured as a fiscal saving by another department...

[BEagle]

It's about time that the UK had its own 'diplomatic' aircraft for ministerial use.

I wonder whether it will be flown by RAF crews or by the PFI mercenaries?

[ihoharv]

From poking around online it looks like the UK is alone among the G20 by not having a dedicated long(?)-range VIP transport for Head of State and associated nobs.

That should be embarrassing....you already took their "yacht" and, I believe, train, for gawds sake!

Of course you're all ruled by the red tops and "Mr Angry from Purley" so am grabbing popcorn for the inevitable beating of the breast. I guess if the saintly Lady Di still walked among us the same folks would happily offer up a taxpayer funded pink Concorde for her...liaisons.

Shame. Used to be a nice country.

[Old-Duffer]

I am at a loss to understand why refitting an aircraft should cost £10M.

One might allow that there would be a VVIP fit for a modest number of senior persons but then the rest would be accommodated at most in a 'Business Class' environment. Since this last fit is readily available for commercial customers why the massive costs.

One might accept that there would be a requirement for added comms and security equipment but it seems to be over-egging things a tad!

Furthermore, I can see the jet being rapidly put back to a tanker/pax aircraft - oh yeh. The next thing of course is there would need to be a spare!

Old Duffer

[Thai Pom]

Old Duffer, have you seen the price of a Certified First / Business class seat? It won't take many to spend 10M.


Cheers, TP

[Jimlad1]

South africa is currently tendering for a jet for 32 seats plus showers and a comference room.

We have a global diplomatic network and interests and uk ministers regularly go overseas. The issue isnt whether to travel or not, the issue is how to travel as cheaply as possible to the taxpayer. Remember we used to do exactly this on the vc10 fleet.

I have no problem with the UK having an official jet as its a lot less embarrassing than seeing the grown ups pull in un a random sleazy jet. Plus it saves money to boot. Good enough for me.

£10m is a pittance these days in govt spending.

[effortless]

So Blair was right?

[ORAC]

Instead, the MoD has agreed to lease 14 Voyager refuellers at a cost of £750m each over 27 years up to 2035 - a total cost of £10bn. plus £10M, so that"s £760 divided by 27, about £28M a year or £2.3M a month or £500K a week?

They are supposed to be on standby for use in war, but equally the cost was to be defrayed by using them in the civil charter market - both now impossible to imagine. It just means the cost is being hidden/absorbed in the MOD budget (as are just about everything the government can disguise as having a "security" connotation).

Frankly, they could wetdamp/dry lease an A330 for far, far less, the fuel economics making them unattractive in the airline industry, but irrelevant for the few trips flown by a VIP jet - but then the cost would be public and upfront

[dervish]

"Get on your bike." (Norman Tebbit)

[cessnapete]

There has always been planned QEC VIP kit for the Voyager.
Far less cost then chartering airline BA/VS 747/777 as has been used for royal flights in the past. Gov. have been chartering private 767s at great cost recently for ministerial trips.
The civvy AirTanker cabin crew could easily attend an airline First Class cabin service course (VS have A330) The cabin service required for Royal/Ministerial flights a bit beyond the RAF Voyager cabin crew training for trooping flights.

[MPN11]

Once up a distant memory, No 216 Sqn provided such services with their 5 Comet 4s. Of course, it was a bigger Air Force and many friendly Commonwealth countries [and others] needed to be visited regularly.

It would be nice if a link to those past glories could be maintained. Is ZZ216 available from the 'Cherished Numberplate" people?

[Davef68]

p
They are supposed to be on standby for use in war, but equally the cost was to be defrayed by using them in the civil charter market - both now impossible to imagine.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=61235

[ORAC]

Dave, I was referring to the jet to be given the VIP fit for the Dave. I doubt very much it will be a quick role change fit with the aircraft being used for Cameron one day and tourists with TC the next.

[Courtney Mil]

Hopefully they'll get best value for money by combining missions. When Dave wants to go to Paris for a summit, he shouldn't mind going via Cyprus to do a Typhoon trail. Oh, and then there's the check in at Brize three days before departure and a couple of nights in Gateway House. He must also be well placed to be the senior passenger to handle all the pax complaints.

[cessnapete]

ORAC
BA had a VIP kit which could be fitted overnight to the front end of the aeroplane.
The Voyager though would probably not have the galley fit for multiple F/Class type meal service whereas the standard BA VC10/747 did.
as standard.

[ICM]

Frankly, once Voyager was up and going, it was surely just a matter of time before some such announcement would be forthcoming. For Cessnapete, I can't see why dealing with Royal and Ministerial flights should be beyond today's cabin crew. In days of yore, 10 Squadron and 216 Squadron crews with the requisite categories mixed VIP and other MOD tasking work as a matter of course. The role fit and the rapidity (or otherwise) with which it might be changed will be an interesting issue to follow. Role changes were an everyday part of the VC10 years, but I imagine that the ability to change with Voyager will be very much subject to Contract amendment.

Oh - and if it's to be 10/101 Sqn crews flying VVIP tasks, rather than AirTanker crews, might they do so in blue/KD?

[WHBM]

It's always amazing.


When the former Royal/VIP fleet was reduced/eliminated, going to commercial charter as required, it was apparently because it was cheaper.

Now we are moving back from VIP charter to a dedicated RAF aircraft, it is apparently because it is cheaper ...

[ORAC]

I see Sky News say they've nicknamed it "Cam Fly With Me".......

[cessnapete]

ICM
I note its going to be a dedicated aircraft so my QC thread not applicable.

[Porrohman]

It's the £2,000 per hour cost quoted by a BBC "source" that caught my eye.

My thoughts on this alleged cost are in the Spectator's balcony; http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/570824-pm-get-own-plane-official-trips.html

Whether or not we need such a status symbol is not the issue IMHO. What we need is truthful government and £2,000 per hour is being somewhat economical with the truth IMHO.

[NutLoose]

There has always been planned QEC VIP kit for the Voyager.
Far less cost then chartering airline BA/VS 747/777 as has been used for royal flights in the past. Gov. have been chartering private 767s at great cost recently for ministerial trips.


It's always amazing.


When the former Royal/VIP fleet was reduced/eliminated, going to commercial charter as required, it was apparently because it was cheaper.

Now we are moving back from VIP charter to a dedicated RAF aircraft, it is apparently because it is cheaper ...


Well as someone who did quite a few Royal VC10 preps I just cannot see it working out cheaper, by the time you add in the RAF factor the price will go through the roof. The one thing they did do (and assuming that the fleet is involved and not just one or two dedicated 330's) was to maintain a fleet standard of presentation.

A Royal VC10 for Betty would be offline and being prepped for about 28 days if the brain cells are working correctly, it's been a while.
During those 28 days anything past half life would be changed, which included the engines (something I always thought stupid as you had trend logs for those installed, one out of the bay was an unknown quantity) I did 3 engine changes on one frame for her trip.

Additionally Betty had her own set of wheels, these were more or less new tyres and wheels and would be fitted for her trips. you can then add on the myriad of other costs, if a window trim panel was damaged or discoloured it would be replaced, that of course stood out like a sore thumb, so we would end up changing all of them, Betty also had her own Gold wool carpets that lasted a couple of trips due to the wool tufting up etc. plus all of the other detritus that went into the aircraft, the VIP fit etc, heck we would even end up changing the fluorescent tubes in the cabin to get an even cabin lighting!
The whole aircraft would then be hand polished with Wadpol, the interior trim in the cockpit etc repainted or replaced and even the aluminium surrounds on the Bettys bog was polished to a mirror finish.. (often wondered if she appreciated that) they even used to polish the brake lines at one point ( until the Royal flight Andover episode where the lower fuselage was polished to a mirror finish, NDT discovered the skins had literally been polished away and needed to be replaced, they then were painted grey I believe.)

There would be a Swo's working party, the painters, base hangar staff, plus a host of guys off the line prepping it for 28 days so just wage costs in theory would be significant, I believe at one point one of the Line teams running it was doing a rough costing on a prep until they were ordered to desist. It had got up to a point that when Charles and Diana went to the States for some Charity function to raise funds, it would have been cheaper for the MOD just to have made a matching donation.

And don't forget you didn't just prep one aircraft, but a spare as well..

Post Royal, they could then be freighting down route the next day

Cheaper...yeah, pull the other one.

I suppose one advantage is the countermeasures suite and secure comms you could fit. Though the countermeasures didn't work when the bit of trim I fitted fell off and hit Maggie Thatcher on the head, even my boss smiled when we found out, I take full reponsibility for that, though the bodge tape I used to secure it failed me... :E


..

[Onceapilot]

Bet it will still go to last minute charter when they have manning problems!:uhoh:

OAP

[Onceapilot]

NutLoose,

I doubt that this will ammount to more than a few rows of seats being changed. Probably £100,000 for the seats and £9,900,000 contract ammendment penalty payment to Air Tanker.:hmm:

OAP

[CoffmanStarter]

Nutty by Royal Appointment ;)

[NutLoose]

Stupid thing, post VIP prep they would airtest it, during the winter they would pull out the highly polished aircraft, spray deicing fluid all over it then go fly it... :*

[Easy Street]

I imagine that it would be used as a tanker or military AT (with some nice seats for the senior officers) when not required for VIP duties, so on the face of it it's good value. However the internal politics will be interesting: £2000 per hour sounds like marginal cost to me, which theoretically gets us into arguments over what the capability is established for and who has first call upon the aircraft. I say 'theoretically' because we all know what the answer would be. So then you would have military users having to charter aircraft (possibly at short notice) if the Voyager had been pulled for VIP duties. I assume that the calculation is that it will be more palatable to the taxpaying public for charter costs to be buried on the MoD exercise or operations budgets than appear on the ministerial travel budget. Would the Treasury compensate the MoD for any such additional expense? That would be an interesting one. The sums would probably be fairly trivial on the grand scheme of things, but how would they explain them away to avoid them being portrayed as an indirect cost of VIP travel?

[beardy]

Will the RAF operate it to CAT 111b limits?

[Mechta]

Onceapilot wrote:

I doubt that this will ammount to more than a few rows of seats being changed. Probably £100,000 for the seats and £9,900,000 contract ammendment penalty payment to Air Tanker.:hmm:


£100,000 would have got you 4/5ths of one first class seat from the mob for whom I worked recently.

[ShotOne]

personally I like the idea of our head of state showing up in an RAF aircraft even if it does cost a bit more. Just so long as there's no repetition of the shameful and disgraceful episode where he pitched up -for a UK trade delegation of all things, in an ANGOLAN chartered aircraft !!

[Onceapilot]

Mechta,

They are actually using a mixture of ex 216 "Fat-Boy" seats and ex VC10 VIP "pews", the £100,000 was for storage. Well, thats what I heard.:rolleyes:

OAP

[mopardave]

for a long time now, I've thought we should have just such a facility for the Royals and ministers........jeez, we're meant to be big hitters, right? And then I read this from NutLoose! I've just changed my mind! Everyone else has to "rough it" and we're all in this together after all! Thanks for the insight NL. If there's nothing in it for the RAF, stick 'em on sleezyjet!!! As for Blair being "right".....that t*sser deserves to be in the hold with the baggage!!

Well as someone who did quite a few Royal VC10 preps I just cannot see it working out cheaper, by the time you add in the RAF factor the price will go through the roof. The one thing they did do (and assuming that the fleet is involved and not just one or two dedicated 330's) was to maintain a fleet standard of presentation.

A Royal VC10 for Betty would be offline and being prepped for about 28 days if the brain cells are working correctly, it's been a while.
During those 28 days anything past half life would be changed, which included the engines (something I always thought stupid as you had trend logs for those installed, one out of the bay was an unknown quantity) I did 3 engine changes on one frame for her trip.

Additionally Betty had her own set of wheels, these were more or less new tyres and wheels and would be fitted for her trips. you can then add on the myriad of other costs, if a window trim panel was damaged or discoloured it would be replaced, that of course stood out like a sore thumb, so we would end up changing all of them, Betty also had her own Gold wool carpets that lasted a couple of trips due to the wool tufting up etc. plus all of the other detritus that went into the aircraft, the VIP fit etc, heck we would even end up changing the fluorescent tubes in the cabin to get an even cabin lighting!
The whole aircraft would then be hand polished with Wadpol, the interior trim in the cockpit etc repainted or replaced and even the aluminium surrounds on the Bettys bog was polished to a mirror finish.. (often wondered if she appreciated that) they even used to polish the brake lines at one point ( until the Royal flight Andover episode where the lower fuselage was polished to a mirror finish, NDT discovered the skins had literally been polished away and needed to be replaced, they then were painted grey I believe.)

There would be a Swo's working party, the painters, base hangar staff, plus a host of guys off the line prepping it for 28 days so just wage costs in theory would be significant, I believe at one point one of the Line teams running it was doing a rough costing on a prep until they were ordered to desist. It had got up to a point that when Charles and Diana went to the States for some Charity function to raise funds, it would have been cheaper for the MOD just to have made a matching donation.

And don't forget you didn't just prep one aircraft, but a spare as well..

Post Royal, they could then be freighting down route the next day

Cheaper...yeah, pull the other one.

I suppose one advantage is the countermeasures suite and secure comms you could fit. Though the countermeasures didn't work when the bit of trim I fitted fell off and hit Maggie Thatcher on the head, even my boss smiled when we found out, I take full reponsibility for that, though the bodge tape I used to secure it failed me...

[Kitbag]

Mopardave, the aircraft trades are short by several hundreds now, the 'savings' have been taken and it's not going to get any better for a very, very long time. It would be lovely to have a proper aircraft for our Head of State to travel in (btw ShotOne, that's HM The Queen, not a politician) but the downside is there won't be anybody to do the prep work that NL has quite accurately detailed (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469443/printablemap-01.pdf) or, alternately, the front line squadrons won't have anybody to maintain the fast jets, rotary or transport fleets.

I do agree re Bliar, and if there was room stick Brown in there too.

[mopardave]

Kitbag....that's what makes this such an informative forum.....it's full of people who know what they're talking about.....unlike me who has nothing much to contribute other than the occasional b*llocks and my unswerving support for all those who serve. I taste sick in my throat at the mere mention of Blair.....by comparison, Brown just makes me feel nauseous!!:ugh:

MD:ok:

[Hangarshuffle]

Cameron should really be spending our money very inventively on buying a Chinese-built aeroplane. It would be more appropriate given these times we live in, and his record to date as a mover and shaker.....whisper it now to him; steel, power and energy supplies, water companies, lots of property in London....
Snaps out of it - the Govt. need a plane with a roundel on it and most people would agree on that at least.

[NutLoose]

I agree Hangarshuffle, I still think we should have one, it would just be nice to have some honest figures.
Turning up in a hired jet must make us look like a 5th rate player on the World stage, I say 5th rate as the likes of India and Nigeria actually have dedicated VIP aircraft. Who would take you seriously?, it's like turning up to a meeting with a carpark full of Rollers and Bentleys in your Fiesta and then pretending that you are on the same financial footing. You're telling the World you have this and that capability, but cannot afford the basics.

It would as I said also allow it to carry secure comms and a defensive suite, something a hired in jet you would struggle with.

Mopardave, don't get despondent, it still is a good idea to have one, it's just the bullsh* t that I know the RAF would jump through to reach that goal, after all, somewhere along the line a promotion would ride on it. One would like to think they have moved on from such crud, but one doubts it.
That's why the likes of BA was originally deemed to be cheaper, they'd simply wash the aircraft, bung in a VIP seating fit and job done.

[Saintsman]

Sure, it looks good on the surface, but as has been pointed out, the 'additional' cost prepping the aircraft is likely to be quite high should the VC10 example be followed. Air Tanker will be rubbing their hands - "You want that item replaced?, certainly sir..." Ker-ching!

Additionally, a VC10 could take up one of the six Base hangar slots without too much impact. I'm not sure the same could be said occupying half of the AT hangar for extended periods.

[mopardave]

NutLoose


In essence, I agree with you.......we must look like 3rd rate chancers on the world stage. I just don't trust politicians when they say there is a saving to be had. I think it's fair to say that PFI's are a ticking financial time bomb. Like I said, if the RAF is going to somehow benefit in some way, fine......if not, who cares if we look like 3rd rate chancers.....Blair, Brown and now Camaroon have all done their bit to "promote" that image!


Strangely, I'd let the Queen have a shiny new ride in a heart beat!


MD

[NutLoose]

Saintsman, Mopardave, it all depends on how they execute the VIP, don't forget the VC10 was an old aircraft and the prep did work in the overall scheme of things as it kept the fleet up to a high standard of presentation to the punters, no matter who they were. Totally agree about the comments re Betty.

That said, with age, there was a lot of bullsh*t, but we produce a first class product at the end of the day that we were all proud of. but time has moved on and the standards may well differ from what is expected today, especially as it is now a civilian company taking up the ball.

I must say I am surprised no crew have said much, especially as the Omegas must have been retired years ago... Hang on a sec, a car has just pulled up outsi.....

[Frostchamber]

Strikes me as reasonably sensible and nothing to get het up about. I think Jimlad1 called it right.

[ShotOne]

Fair point, kit bag but the aircraft is for use of Her Majesty too. I phrased it as I did because thankfully HM wasn't on board for the disgraceful Angolan charter debacle.

I'm surprised by the negatives expressed here, of all places. This is a prestige role, formerly outsourced, now being handed back to the RAF.

[NutLoose]

Not being negative about the RAF taking the role back on, just pondering the way it has been costed. Personally, as I said I believe the RAF should carry the Monarch, the next in line, and all the excess baggage that follows on, Mp's..etc

[Davef68]

I wonder how much of this is informed by security aspects as much as economic - much more difficult to hide a coke can bomb on an RAF aircraft I'd imagine