RAF Warrant Officer

[A20DEK]

Can anyone offer an explanation to a simple question from someone who has been around the RAF for 25 years, but not in the RAF. No particular reason for asking other than curiosity. Just a genuine question tried to put as simpy as possible:-

When a commisioned officer calls a Corporal, Sergent etc. he addresses them as Rank then 'surname'. When he calls a Warrant Officer, he addresses him as Mister 'surname'.
When enlisted individuals address a Corporal, Sergent etc. they addresses them as rank then 'surname'. However, when adressing a Warrant Officer, it is as Sir - even though he is not an officer in the established rank structure.

Can anyome offer an explanation?

Many thanks

[just another jocky]

Royal Warrant? :confused:

An officer holds the Queen's Commission which has a higher status.

I could be wrong.

[Chugalug2]

Warrant Officers call Officer Cadets "Sir". Officer Cadets call Warrant Officers "Sir", the only difference is that they mean it!

Sorry for the flippancy, the point is that a Warrant Officer is

an officer in the established rank structureHe holds a Warrant, in contrast to a Commission. NCO's in that regard are Officers, though Not Commissioned. In other words an "Officer" is someone holding authority over those who are not officers. Think of the two Ronnies and John Cleese. Cleese is the Commissioned Officer, Barker the Warrant Officer (or possibly NCO), Corbett "Knows his place".

[charliegolf]

A Warrant Officer is not promoted into the rank, he or she is appointed to it by the monarch via a Royal Warrant (mentioned earlier). That sets him aside from any other enlisted airman or woman. With the appointment goes the priviledge of being addressed by subordinates as, 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'. Who actualy calls whom what is a matter steeped in history and tradition I should have thought.

CG

[ShyTorque]

....and whether they had shaved their legs on that day or not...:E

[lsh]

My last Flight Commander called me "educationally sub-normal", rather than "Mr lsh", should I sue?!

lsh
:E

[charliegolf]

Shaved? Some I remember would need a plane! And Si, if you can spell 'educationally sub-normal' you ain't- sue!

CG

[ShyTorque]

Shaved? Some I remember would need a plane! And Si, if you can spell 'educationally sub-normal' you ain't- sue!

CG, I had no idea you'd changed your name to Sue! Is this why you mentioned some needing a plane? :p

[ShyTorque]

lsh, Long time no see - I was very recently telling someone the "Bark once for yes, twice for no!" story :ok:

[Army Mover]

As an ex-Army WO; officers and peers called me "Mr" (or my appointment), everybody else subordinate, it was "Sir".

Don't know the why or therefore; it wasn't described in QR's, so I suspect it's a tradition.

[Union Jack]

Don't know the why or therefore; it wasn't described in QR's, so I suspect it's a tradition.

....rather than a habit.:D

Jack

[MATELO]

A Warrant Officer is not promoted into the rank, he or she is appointed to it by the monarch via a Royal Warrant (mentioned earlier). That sets him aside from any other enlisted airman or woman. With the appointment goes the priviledge of being addressed by subordinates as, 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'. Who actualy calls whom what is a matter steeped in history and tradition I should have thought!

& then you get SWO's.....

[GipsyMagpie]

Of course there was also a rank of Conductor that was superior to all NCO and inferior to all Officers. Shame its gone now. Silly name

[CISAtSea]

The first Warrant officers were in the Royal Navy. Command of ships was given to members of the aristocracy by a Royal Commission. Unfortunately, they couldn't actually sail the ships and so they employed professional seamen to do the actual sailing. These professional officers came to be appointed by Royal Warrant. During Nelson's time they were also the only permanent members of a ship's complement. Everyone else only remained on the ship for the duration of a commission, ie between refits.

The use of the term Mister probably comes from the polite mode of address by aristocrats for professional people, ie Master or Mister. They were still officers to everyone else on board for which Sir was appropriate.

As mentioned before; largely the result of tradition rather than design. The Army and then the RAF simply followed long.

[sitigeltfel]

An officer holds the Queen's Commission which has a higher status.
Try telling that to a WO who will have sweated decades to get the title "Sir" when Occifers are awarded it while still wet behind the ears. ;)

[TBM-Legend]

As the saying goes - "once I couldn't even spell Occifer now I are one!" :hmm:

[Stanwell]

... and besides, wise officers don't order a WO - they consult.
In the case of an army RSM, wise officers consult - then defer to.

[teeteringhead]

Try telling that to a WO who will have sweated decades to get the title "Sir" when Occifers are awarded it while still wet behind the ears. One recalls the tale of a Staish who was being dined into the Sgts' Mess. As the CMC (a WO) escorted him to the table, he said:

"Congratulations on your promotion Sir, but just remember that means you've now had 3 merit promotions; I've had 4!"

[Tankertrashnav]

As an ex-Army WO; officers and peers called me "Mr" (or my appointment), everybody else subordinate, it was "Sir".


Is it acceptable for subordinates to address an army warrant officer as "sergeant major", or should it always be "sir"?

Gipsy Magpie I think I am right in saying that the rank of conductor still exists in the Royal Logistics Corps. The name dates back to the 14th Century when there was no standing army and the king appointed men to "conduct" troops which had been raised in various parts of the country down to ports of embarkation, normally on the south coast en route to France. Later on the job entailed making sure that cannon and other heavy ordnance got safely to the ports, and thus the title eventually passed to senior warrant officers in the Army (later Royal Army) Ordnance Corps, which was absorbed by the RLC some years ago.

As was mentioned, conductors are the most senior warrant officers in the British Army, a fact which is a constant source of irritation to those splendidly attired warrant officers in the Guards Division!

[Wrathmonk]

As was mentioned, conductors are the most senior warrant officers in the British Army, a fact which is a constant source of irritation to those splendidly attired warrant officers in the Guards Division!

Is that still the case? I think this gentleman/role is now considered to be the most senior warrant officer or is it just badly worded press releases? I stand to be corrected!

The Army creates its most senior post ever for a soldier - British Army Website (http://www.army.mod.uk/news/27179.aspx)

New Army Role Creates Bridge Between Senior Staff And Serving Soldiers | Forces TV (http://www.forces.tv/57798098)

Unsurprisingly, the first incumbent is from the Guards Division....

[Onceapilot]

Tankertrashnav,

I might suggest that a subordinate might always address a superior Officer or Warrant Officer by their rank and name if the situation demands and, having gained their attention, it would be required that the subordinate then starts the exchange with the salutation "Sir, etc, etc".

OAP

[Boris1275]

Warrant Officers (WOs) are often included in the SNCO category, but actually form a separate class of their own. A Warrant Officer will have many years experience and is respected by both rank structures. Warrant Officers are addressed as "Mister" (or "Mrs", "Ms" or "Miss" for female Warrant Officers) by commissioned officers (and as "Sir" or "Ma'am" by everyone else). SNCOs and WOs have their own messes, whereas JNCOs live and eat with the junior ranks.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for that link Wrathmonk - I hadnt heard of that one. I'm interested to see that the chap is wearing what appears to be a similar beret badge to that worn by staff officers, and other "unattached" officers.

Personally I think the whole thing smacks of a ploy by the guards to rid themselves of the indignity of being considered subordinate to a high ranking spanner-basher from the RLC ;)

Onceapilot - yes, that seems about right.

[DC10RealMan]

What is a Lord Lieutenants Commission and how does that differ if at all from the Queens Commission (apart from it be conferred by a Lord Lieutenant)?

[goudie]

Real Warrant Officers were somewhat peed off by Master aircrew, especially
loadies who strutted around the mess flashing their more elaborate sleeve badge.
My W/O was extremely scathing of them and treated them with complete disdain

[charliegolf]

My W/O was extremely scathing of them.

But he took some solace in out-earning them. Oh, wait...

CG:E

[charliegolf]

What is a Lord Lieutenants Commission and how does that differ if at all from the Queens Commission (apart from it be conferred by a Lord Lieutenant)?

One is real and meaningful, the other is noddy.

CG

[Onceapilot]

goudie,

I think you will find that many "real Warrant Officers" were also worthy of disdain.;)

OAP

[Danny42C]

In British India there was a Viceroy's Commissioned Officer, subordinate to all King's Commissioned Officers, but senior to all British Other Ranks (including Warrant Officers)

VCOs were treated and addressed with respect. Even a British officer would address a VCO as, for instance, "subedar sahib" or <name> "sahib". [Wiki]

He would be entitled to second-class travel on the railways (same as BORs)

D.

[MPN11]

Sergeant Major Haughton was selected for Late Entry Commission in 2012 and went on to put officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst through their paces as the Academy Sergeant Major.

So he is both a Sgt Maj, and an officer?


(Shame about the tattoos, which contribute little to his dignity)

[goudie]

I think you will find that many "real Warrant Officers" were also worthy of disdainYes, OAP you are probably right but to most of them it was 'water off a duck's back'! Courting popularity wasn't their style, well certainly not the one's I was acquainted with.

[Dougie M]

The Army Sergeant Major seems to be wearing a staff officers' hat badge on his beret. The army always deified its Sergeant Majors and even in the Sgts' Mess at Benson woe betide anybody of either service who ordered a drink before the RSM arrived in the bar.
On other RAF Stations I've known one or two CMCs like that but not usually the SWO.

[RUCAWO]

Then we have American Commisioned Warrant Officers :}

[Two's in]

What this thread needs is a pedant. Conductor, Army Sergeant Major, Station Warrant Officer etc. are all appointments, not ranks. You can have a more senior appointment, but still be the same rank as another WO. This makes for great fun at formal dinners, when the medal and seniority police have real problems deciding if the seating plan is correct or not.

As for "real" Warrant Officers versus Aircrew Warrant Officers, the true mettle of an individual is in the amount of respect they earn through their words and deeds, and has very little to do with Unicorns Rampant on worn on the right sleeve

Then we have American Commisioned Warrant Officers Stop it right now.

[goudie]

woe betide anybody of either service who ordered a drink before the RSM arrived in the bar.

Much to the delight of my Signals friends I fell for that one as a guest, in the Royal Signals Mess at Episkopi. Couldn't understand why the barman totally ignored me when I ordered a round of drinks, then in walked the RSM, a drink was placed on the bar for him and then and only then, did the barman acknowledge me.

[kfwalm]

Glad to see the non aircrew are bashing the MAcr .. On a military aviation forum, unwise .:ugh:

[goudie]

non aircrew are bashing the MAcr

Not at all kfwalm, just stating the attitudes, in my experience, of some crusty old WO's.

[Army Mover]

Is it acceptable for subordinates to address an army warrant officer as "sergeant major", or should it always be "sir"?

TTN - It should be Sir; but only a new recruit would do it; he/she would have it drilled into them by the time they finished basic training.

[kaitakbowler]

Down south in '90, the RAOC (as it was then) guys got all excited as THE Conductor was arriving. When we got finished asking which band was coming down they explained about his appointment, and started to brag that he "would sort out this crab Mess" OWTTE. On arrival he made his number with the CMC and the SWO, reminded his guys that they were in an RAF WO's and SGTs mess and our rules and customs applied, he was a top bloke.

I agree entirely that the man not the badge earned the respect. I've only known a small number of Master Aircrew but 3 stick in the mind as top guys.

Gerry Smith, Master Pilot on 1574Flt Changi, the late Peter Barwell AFC and Barry "Smokey" Furness, both Master Air Loadmasters of 84 Sqn, Akrotiri.

[Wander00]

M Plt "Jacko" Jackson, QFI at the Towers in the 60s

[Roadster280]

To address the "sergeant major or Sir" question:

If a soldier, SSgt or below is in conversation with a WO or higher, he will address the WO as Sir, exactly like a commissioned officer. Never "Sergeant Major".

However, if said junior guy is approaching a group of say a sergeant major and two captains, and needs to speak to the SSM, he will attract his attention by starting his sentence with "Sergeant Major, Sir, could I speak to you about xyz". Similarly for the Captains. "Captain A, Sir, could I have a word about xyz". Obviously if the junior guy bumbled up to the group and said "Sir,..." they wouldn't know who he was addressing.

Just to throw fuel on the fire for discussion, the junior guy would salute as he got to the group, the senior captain would return the salute (or both of them!), and then the guy would address the SSM.

[teeteringhead]

What is a Lord Lieutenants Commission and how does that differ if at all from the Queens Commission (apart from it be conferred by a Lord Lieutenant)? IIRC - and I'm happy to be shot down - Lord Lieutenants' Commissions are/were issued to officers in the ACF (Army Cadet Force). [Although many now hold TA Class B Commissions or the equivalent.]

The main difference was that rights of redress were limited to one-star level, while a holder of the Queen's Commission has rights of appeal to the Service Boards and - ultimately - to HM herself.

Historically, I think Lord Lieutenants' Commissions were also issued to Home Guard officers; best we ask Capt Mainwaring!

[MOSTAFA]

How difficult do people want to make it?

I have no idea of the RAF rules albeit, my 6 months passing through CFS at RAF Shawbury rules were much the same - but the army rules are quite simple.

You first have to remember there is a difference between an appointment and a rank. On being selected for promotion to WO2 all are referred to as sir by all subordinates. If you are promoted as a WO2 into an appointment or just moved into one i.e. Company/Battery/Squadron Sergeant major (there are a great deal more appointments) then a person of higher rank, WO1's or commissioned will refer to you as Sergeant Major. The Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) a WO1 is referred to as 'Regimental Sergeant Major' by the Commanding Officer and Sir to everybody else subordinate. Majors and Captains just nod and try to stay out of his way and subalterns just hide. They generally, if forced to be in his presence, refer to him as 'yes RSM', I've seldom heard one refer to him as No RSM!

Before we go further lets try to clear up the 'Warrant' bit. Thats is issued by the Secretary of State for Defence, so nothing to do with royalty. The royal bit only comes to those commissioned from the ranks (LE) when their Royal Commission is exactly the same as (DE) Officers.

The 'Mr bit' comes into WO1/2, when not in an appointment and generally will be referred to as Mr by all without exception, when referencing a subordinate would say 'No Sir, Mr Smith told me to go and boil my head'! But to his person he is still referred to as Sir by all subordinates. A WO1/2 not in an appointment would also answer the telephone as Mr *****. A Squadron Sergeant Major would answer as 'Sargent Major ******'.

There have always been abnormalities or as we call them 'tradition' but generally it works a treat. You can easily be promoted through Warrant Officer rank without ever holding an appointment and that very occasionally might cause a few ruffles where you sit on the top table but generally big boys accept it and enjoy the fact you may well be senior in rank and seniority but not by appointment.

Clear as mud eh.

[Tankertrashnav]

Army Mover and Roadstar280 - thanks for the replies on the correct form of address by ORs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34

Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!

[Chugalug2]

MOSTAFA:-
I hope that helps.

You are joking, I hope? How I ever got through my promotion exam to Flt Lt when part of the syllabus was about the British Army I shall never understand. It still remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma and will be ever thus...

[MOSTAFA]

As I tried to point out Chug - Thats tradition.

[Stanwell]

Fascinating - answering all the questions we didn't think to ask.

We did things a just a little differently down here in Oz.
I was at a gathering in the Sergeants Mess one evening..
WO2 Brown was standing at the bar.

Rather than the invitation going "There's a group of us (three-stripers) at the far table, would you care to join us, sir?"
It went "Hey Bob!. Get your arse over here".
.

[MOSTAFA]

and you think its different here? The only difference is we have this 'traditional' rule - what goes on in the mess - stays in the mess.

[Stanwell]

Fair enough.
.. except, thoughtfully, I left out the last two words of the 'invitation', ".. ya ****!" :ok:

[Davef68]

So presumably 'Command Sergeant Major' is, like Army Sergeant Major, an appointment for WO1s?

It does sound like another Americanised rank we have adopted (To be filed along side 'Executive Officer' in the RAF and RN for second in command)

[Danny42C]

My Dad ended his "twenty-two years of undetected crime" as a "Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant". That would have been a Warrant Rank in 1920, according to Wiki.

There are all sorts of commissions. As an Officer of Customs and Excise in my declining years, I held a Commission from the Commissioners of Customs and Excise (who else ?), who resided in state near the Tower of London in King's Beam House. Never had to wave it in the thirteen years in which I laboured in the VAT vineyard to earn an honest crust to supplement my miserly RAF Pension.

But there was a valuable perk: I was excused from Jury service :ok: as I had Some of the Powers of a Constable. This came in handy two or three times (the excuse, that is, I never had to do more than issue the dread words of a Caution).

D.

[MOSTAFA]

Dave

Nope! to the best of my knowledge we don't have or ever had any Command Sergeant Majors. I think its a US term for RSM equivalent.

We have a Company Sergeant Majors and the equivalent. (WO2) 1 per Company.

We have Regimental Quartermaster Sergeants (WO2) Usually 2 per Regt/Bn who are senior to the Company Sergeant Majors (By appointment RQMS).

We have a Regimental Sergeant Major (WO1) RSM 1 per Regt/Bn Senior by appointment to all WO1's within the Regt/Bn. Artificer Sergeant Major (ASM WO1) Band Sergeant Major (BSM WO1) not to be confused with a Battery Sergeant Major (BSM WO2).

We have some Garrison Sergeant Majors (GSM WO1) usually ex RSMs (WO1 not commissioning) by appointment senior to RSMs in their Garrisons but not in their own Regt messes.

We have an Academy Sergeant Major (By appointment Academy Sergeant Major RMAS Sandhurst) (WO1) whom by appointment is the senior Regimental Sergeant Major).

We used to have other appointments (WO1) that were by appointment senior but I think they have now largely gone (Conductor) Royal Army Ordnance Corps. But who knows!

Told you it was simple.

[Roadster280]

Army Mover and Roadstar280 - thanks for the replies on the correct form of address by ORs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34

Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!

Indeed, I believe it was a joke in the show, on account of Gnr Graham's privileged background. Clearly intellectually superior and even condescending to WO2 Williams; always put back in his box by Williams mocking him.

IIRC the other characters also sometimes called him "Sergeant Major", but not like Graham.

[Union Jack]

Never mind the tattoos, and the whopping great badge which stands out rather surprisingly against the camouflaged background on the Army Sergeant Major's uniform, particularly compared with everyone else's, I am rather taken with the mention that:

"At the end of his three-year tenure, he will be moving on to the year-long Intermediate Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham, for which he will take up his substantive promotion to Major."

Can the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service and the Chief of the Air Staff's Warrant Officer look forward to shipping two and a half stripes similarly, not to mention the Royal Marines Corps Regimental Sergeant Major?:hmm:

Jack

[PingDit]

I used to take great delight in pointing out to other Warrant Officers in the Mess that as a Master Aircrew and placed higher in the Royal Air Force List, I was obviously senior to them. I and my fellow aircrew had many amusing times with that one, especially when it involved a ground trade CMC!

[oldmansquipper]

PingDit

Don't get me started on the necessary `Ex-Cpls only bar` in Kipper fleet Sgts Messes. ;)

I recall as a WO of some 10 years seniority (at an RAF station with tri service people), I was surprised to find that on the seating plan for a dining in night, I had been placed downwind of a young WO from the Adj Generals Corps. When I asked the mess manager why this was so, the answer was "He was appointed to WO1 status (of a lodger unit) recently" and had informed the mess that as he was now the senior WO on base he should be next to the CMC.

The `dispute` was resolved simply. It was pointed out to him that the flag at the top of the STATION flagpole was, of course, the RAF Ensign. and the Mess was the RAF.XXX ..mess. The `postman` was put back in his box only to be let out a few month later when he was commissioned.

I just love traditions....:D

[Geordie_Expat]

When I was living in in AFCENT, we (RAF) lived on the top floor, the Army on the ground floor. They had regular morning inspections and at one time they had a Regimental Corporal Major (can't for the life of me remember his name).

Always remember his first day when he burst into our room to find all and sundry lying around. He was just taking a deep breath when the outgoing RSM said quietly "We don't bother these guys" whereon they left.

Just remembered his name; RCM Godfrey-Cass.

[4mastacker]

oldmansquipper.

Sounds like Brampton, only replace the AGC with Int Corps. The Int Corps WO1 in JARIC tried the same tricks, "marshalling" his SNCOs at mess meetings to try and push 'the Army way" as the way to run the mess. The matter was resolved in much the same way as you describe in your post.

[Chugalug2]

Just as long as no-one mentions saluting USA WO's. I just did, but I think I've got away with it...

[Archimedes]

"At the end of his three-year tenure, he will be moving on to the year-long Intermediate Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham, for which he will take up his substantive promotion to Major."

Jack



He's going to be awfully surprised when the course finishes five months earlier than he was expecting...

[Davef68]

Mostafa,

The workings of Khaki Command always puzzle me, but according to the press release:

Sergeant Major Haughton was selected for Late Entry Commission in 2012 and went on to put officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst through their paces as the Academy Sergeant Major. In doing so, he joined a select group of 30 Command Sergeant Majors in the British Army, selected from among the strongest applicants on the Late Entry Commissioning Boards. He now heads up that group as the Army Sergeant Major, providing guidance and direction from the very top of the Army, and feeding back the soldiers’ voice to Higher Command.

A bit of googling suggests appointment this was introduced in 2008ish

[Davef68]

I am rather taken with the mention that:

"At the end of his three-year tenure, he will be moving on to the year-long Intermediate Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham, for which he will take up his substantive promotion to Major."

Can the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service and the Chief of the Air Staff's Warrant Officer look forward to shipping two and a half stripes similarly, not to mention the Royal Marines Corps Regimental Sergeant Major?:hmm:



It does say he was accepted for Late Service Commission, so presumably they have delayed him taking up his Commission to hold the ASM post?

[Tankertrashnav]

I've just remembered that many years ago when I was dealing in medals I bought a group of four, consisting of the usual three for WW1 and the RAF LS & GC with George V's head. The recipient's rank as impressed on his LS & GC was "Sergeant Major 1st Class". The ranks of sergeant major 1st and 2nd classes remained in the RAF until 1933 until they were renamed Warrant Officer(1st and 2nd classes).

I bet even Danny doesn't remember RAF Sergeant Majors ;)

[Stanwell]

Hey, Geordie Expat..
This is just getting silly.
A Regimental CORPORAL Major??

No wonder the Yanks just went their own way.

[vmv2]

Geordie_Expat,

Reading his name brought a chuckle to my throat. I worked upstairs in the blue half of the UKDSU. When Godfrey-Cass arrived, he tried it on with my Chief Clerk, Bill Brooks, but I'm afraid that he came a distant second in that competition.

[MOSTAFA]

Dave, ah well, I'm sorry mate, I've never heard of them but I guess it is just another of these wonderful ideas our PC loving politicians and the rather poor commanders we have had recently thats made our armed forces into the equally fluffy fun loving organisation it is nowadays. Lets face it they can change whatever they like at a stroke of a pen, who gives a toss for tradition anyway!

I notice the Army Sergeant Major (WO1) is a Guardsman, strange that - the only army regiment not decimated by 30 years of disbandments or whatever the government called the disbandments the last time.

I'm off to let the Royal Air Force discuss their own Warrant Officers as I should have in the beginning!

[Two's in]

I notice the Army Sergeant Major (WO1) is a Guardsman, strange that - the only army regiment not decimated by 30 years of disbandments or whatever the government called the disbandments the last time.


MOSTAFA,

There has to be some perk involved with standing in front of Betty Windsor's house with a big hat on for all those years.

[PlasticCabDriver]

The Army Sergeant Major seems to be wearing a staff officers' hat badge on his beret. The army always deified its Sergeant Majors and even in the Sgts' Mess at Benson woe betide anybody of either service who ordered a drink before the RSM arrived in the bar.
On other RAF Stations I've known one or two CMCs like that but not usually the SWO.

If you can be arrsed to search ARRSE there is a similar thread on there about who is the most senior WO in the army.

There is a post very much along those lines, where a visiting WO was ignored by the barman until the RSM/CMC/other WO of a type I can't remember (R/C/other WO) came in. Said R/C/other WO came swanning in shortly afterwards with his gang of sycophants whereupon our visiting WO, who was senior in every conceivable way to the R/C/other WO debriefed him loudly and in a one way fashion as to what he thought of R/C/other WO and his behaviour.

Which brings to mind the Earl of Bandon, but he wasn't a WO...

[Army Mover]

Down south in '90, the RAOC (as it was then) guys got all excited as THE Conductor was arriving. When we got finished asking which band was coming down they explained about his appointment, and started to brag that he "would sort out this crab Mess" OWTTE. On arrival he made his number with the CMC and the SWO, reminded his guys that they were in an RAF WO's and SGTs mess and our rules and customs applied, he was a top bloke.

I agree entirely that the man not the badge earned the respect. I've only known a small number of Master Aircrew but 3 stick in the mind as top guys.

Gerry Smith, Master Pilot on 1574Flt Changi, the late Peter Barwell AFC and Barry "Smokey" Furness, both Master Air Loadmasters of 84 Sqn, Akrotiri.

Conductors very rarely take over the Mess; what you've described was pretty much my experience.

[Army Mover]

The Army Sergeant Major seems to be wearing a staff officers' hat badge on his beret. The army always deified its Sergeant Majors and even in the Sgts' Mess at Benson woe betide anybody of either service who ordered a drink before the RSM arrived in the bar.
On other RAF Stations I've known one or two CMCs like that but not usually the SWO.

Generally, Army WO1's wear an officers cap badge on their berets, but not their service hat/cap; they also wear an officers pattern Sam Brown belt, officers shoes and brown leather gloves in Service Dress (your No 1 dress). I say generally because some Regiments will have other traditions (bad habits).

All very confusing.

[langleybaston]

CONDUCTORS senior?

Total cobblers, put about by ............

............. CONDUCTORS.

There's a surprise.

Yes they were the earliest WO created, 1879 as opposed to 1881.

Yes they can take place of subalterns on relevant parades, but

No, each Conductor is/was a WO I [after 1915 when WO II was created] whose seniority within group (i) below is determined by date of warrant. The small print says that all in this group are of same status but each is "senior" when carrying out the duties of the appointment. Thus at Sandhurst the AcSM is king, and indeed a SWO on his own station.

Much of the conductors' huffing and puffing stems from the alphabetical nature of how the list used to be presented, but many issues of KR and QR have footnotes which spell out that this is not a precedence list.

I imagine these new Army and Corps appointments have been/ will be added to Army QRs and of course will be in group (i).


Warrant Officer – class 1
(i) Conductor, RLC,Ro Artillery Sergeant Major, Academy sergeant major, RMAS, Garrison sergeant major London District

[there are three junior WO I groupings listed.}

The list is taken from the last hard copy Army QR as amended.

[MPN11]

Somewhat OT, but I was visiting an RAAF station, on duty in uniform, and was having a quiet beer with my RAAF oppo. All the other people entering the Bar came up to me and said variations of "G'day, Sir" before going to get a drink. My oppo explained I was the senior officer present [eeek].

[Union Jack]

It does say he was accepted for Late Service Commission, so presumably they have delayed him taking up his Commission to hold the ASM post? - Davef68

Irrespective of how long the course at Shrivenham lasts, it still seems a pretty good short-cut to becoming a major when one consider what other officers have to do to reach that rank or its equivalent!:suspect:

Jack

[Army Mover]

CONDUCTORS senior?

Total cobblers, put about by ............

............. CONDUCTORS.

There's a surprise.

Yes they were the earliest WO created, 1879 as opposed to 1881.

Yes they can take place of subalterns on relevant parades, but

No, each Conductor is/was a WO I [after 1915 when WO II was created] whose seniority within group (i) below is determined by date of warrant. The small print says that all in this group are of same status but each is "senior" when carrying out the duties of the appointment. Thus at Sandhurst the AcSM is king, and indeed a SWO on his own station.

Much of the conductors' huffing and puffing stems from the alphabetical nature of how the list used to be presented, but many issues of KR and QR have footnotes which spell out that this is not a precedence list.

I imagine these new Army and Corps appointments have been/ will be added to Army QRs and of course will be in group (i).


Warrant Officer – class 1
(i) Conductor, RLC,Ro Artillery Sergeant Major, Academy sergeant major, RMAS, Garrison sergeant major London District

[there are three junior WO I groupings listed.}

The list is taken from the last hard copy Army QR as amended.

LB - I think you'll find that's been changed with the creation of the new Army Command Sgt Majors; I forget their proper titles.

In my time (I've been out 20 years); the Conductors (RAOC, then RLC) were the senior WO1's in the British Army; their rank was WO1 (Conductor).

[Army Mover]

It does say he was accepted for Late Service Commission, so presumably they have delayed him taking up his Commission to hold the ASM post? - Davef68

Irrespective of how long the course at Shrivenham lasts, it still seems a pretty good short-cut to becoming a major when one consider what other officers have to do to reach that rank or its equivalent!:suspect:

Jack

Probably not, excuse my old terminology, but he'd have been commissioned as a Late Entry SSC Capt, then assuming good reports, been selected for a QM commission and promoted to Major 3 years later, so they are probably just not penalising him. He does seem highly regarded.

[MOSTAFA]

I'm back and confused after after looking it up in the London Gazette - my LE Comission from WO1 says that I was promoted 2Lt 5 years prior to my actual commissioning date, promoted Lt 4 years prior to my actual commissioning date and promoted Captain on my actual commissioning date. So I guess that's how it's done for LE Captains but promotion to Major is/was done by selection after 4 years seniority (Captain) and published on the beige list so goodness knows how this bloke goes straight to Field rank! But times do change.

[handysnaks]

Godfrey Cass!!!
Good grief! He was GSM (Garrison Sgt Major, as has been explained earlier), of Detmold back in 1979-82ish!!
Funny how some names never leave you!

[Alison Conway]

MOSTAFA - you were not promoted to 2Lt. On commissioning you (briefly) left the service and were COMMISSIONED as my boss pointed out to me when I moaned "What was the use of being promoted to Flying Officer" or some such during one of our career interviews. This, BTW, from a guy who manoeuvred acting rank for me in order to post me to FI Ops tour, told me to get my mess dress re-ranked and then to attend a graduation of my students and then, as PMC, fined me a bottle of port as the acting rank was not effective until I stepped on the Tri*. What a w****r!

[MOSTAFA]

Alison I'm only telling you what it said in the LG I agree with you, but it says I was promoted LG words to 2Lt then Lt several years before, whilst I was still a WO1 undoubtedly this is the way it was done to ensure you were a sub Captain on your actual commissioning date. As for leaving for the army for a day I quite agree. Sorry if I confused you.

[Danny42C]

Davef68 (62) and Union Jack (#73) et al,

Without doing any research, I seem to remember that historically the Army had Lieutenant-Generals and Sergeant-Major Generals. The 'Sergeant' got dropped off, but the 'Major' stuck, so a Lieutenant General is a 3-star, but a Major General only two.

Danny.

[Clunk60]

Across all 3 Services there are the "I'm more senior to you brigade" or "this is my Mess" city Fathers of old. The bottom line is you can be RSM of this or CASWO of that, but if you bring in £63.4k a year as level 20 PA you don't really care.

[reds & greens]

^^^^^^^^
Well, I guess that's put some people in their place.
But if its willy waving you're after, I retired as a WO, now running my own business (which I love), working 3 days a week (max), driving a 15 plate BMW and banking more than that.
Make of life what you want.

[Union Jack]

Without doing any research, I seem to remember that historically the Army had Lieutenant-Generals and Sergeant-Major Generals. The 'Sergeant' got dropped off, but the 'Major' stuck, so a Lieutenant General is a 3-star, but a Major General only two. - Danny

As you are wont to say, YLSNED!:ok: On mature reflection, it's probably best not to reflect on how the ranks of Vice and Rear Admiral originated....:hmm:

Jack

[Union Jack]

.....my LE Comission from WO1 says that I was promoted 2Lt 5 years prior to my actual commissioning date, promoted Lt 4 years prior to my actual commissioning date and promoted Captain on my actual commissioning date. - MOSTAFA

As I said to Danny in my last post, YLSNED! What an amazing system, and a great incentive to good behaviour during that period..... If we had something like that in the dark blue - and I behaved!:suspect: - I'd probably be a full Admiral now.:rolleyes:

Jack

[MOSTAFA]

Probably. :ugh:

[Union Jack]

Mostafa - I believe that you and I may have got our Smilies crossed up!:D

Jack

[Danny42C]

Tankertashnav,

Just spotted your #63.

No, before my time (there was a time before my time, believe it or not !).

Dad retired as a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (King's Liverpool Regt.). Don't know how he fitted in the heirarchy.

Believe I have 73 yrs seniority as a honorary 2nd Lieut. in the US Army Air Corps. Or so the story went. Must be at least a Brigadier by now !

Jack,

You'd make a fine Admiral in my book ! - but remember:

"Stay close to your desk and never go to sea
And you can be the ruler of the Queen's Navee"

Danny.

[Army Mover]

Tankertashnav,

Just spotted your #63.

No, before my time (there was a time before my time, believe it or not !).

Dad retired as a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (King's Liverpool Regt.). Don't know how he fitted in the heirarchy.

Believe I have 73 yrs seniority as a honorary 2nd Lieut. in the US Army Air Corps. Or so the story went. Must be at least a Brigadier by now !

Jack,

You'd make a fine Admiral in my book ! - but remember:

"Stay close to your desk and never go to sea
And you can be the ruler of the Queen's Navee"

Danny.

Danny, an RQMS was generally a WO2 and within the Regiment/Battalion, 2nd in seniority to the RSM.

[Slow Biker]

Back in the day I often came into contact with Army Warrant Officers including 'The' Conductor. Sometimes there was a bit of 'my appointment trumps yours' etc, mostly in good humour. My usual response was that we all had a similar certificate signed by the Secretary of State and that as far as I was concerned one set of gallopers equals another, no matter how large or elaborate.
As a WO I was once described by a US Army Lt as an officer who worked!

[Union Jack]

You'd make a fine Admiral in my book ! - but remember:

"Stay close to your desk and never go to sea
And you can be the ruler of the Queen's Navee" - Danny

Why thank you very kindly, Sir - I really appreciate the thought, even if the Admiralty Board thought otherwise.:ok:

Your HMS PINAFORE reference is very pertinent when I recall that I have had one shore appointment where I had an substantial amount of power with very little responsibility, as opposed to the much more usual substantial amount of responsibility with very little power. Perhaps Gilbert was quite right after all!:D

Jack

[Danny42C]

Army Mover,

Thanks for the info (your #88). So Dad was a power in the land, after all. On retirement in around 1920, he joined the Corps of Commissionaires and remained as stiff as a ramrod till his dying day.

A poignant feature: when I enlisted in the RAF, he was as proud as a peacock.
"With your education, son, you'll be a Sergeant in no time !" Sadly he would not live to see the day (when I got the stripes with my wings).

Danny.

---------------------

Jack,

So you didn't make Flag Rank after all ! Never mind. Some of us were fated to be bottom-feeders all our Service lives. It's just the way the mop flopped.

Danny.