Typhoon?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I am largely unsighted and out of touch with the rationale (standby for banter), but why, when we have a multi-role, multi million pound aircraft are they not deployed on Op Shader when they did deploy for a limited period to Ellamy. It's rather unpalatable to justify their lack of involvement if we don't have enough/serviceability to cover QRA and an Op Deployment. This isn't trolling this is a genuine question. If it's just that it's the sensible abrogation of resources then I understand but if it's not what message does that send when SDSR is just round the corne? Any thoughts?

[downsizer]

No airshows on Shader mate, thats why....:ok::E

Serious answer....No Brimstone, Raptor, limited number of PW4 capable airframes for a start.

[Easy Street]

The air-to-ground capability which Typhoon used on ELLAMY, and which still exists today, is basic: Paveway II and Enhanced PW2 only. These have 1000lb warheads and the fuses are not programmable (for airburst, variable delay, etc) from the cockpit, which reduces flexibility especially when targeting in built-up areas. By contrast the PW4 has a smaller warhead and cockpit-programmable features.

As downsizer says, advanced weapons like PW4, Brimstone and Storm Shadow are not fully operational on Typhoon yet. To answer the obvious follow-up question, they will be, in time for Tornado's planned retirement. PW4 has been trialled and Storm Shadow has recently had its first flight. Only Tranche 2 and later aircraft will be able to carry any of those weapons, and those aircraft are still in delivery. Even if enough PW4-capable aircraft could be mustered today, there's no prospect of Brimstone capability until much nearer Tornado's retirement date - and given how critical that weapon is, it will determine Typhoon's deployability on SHADER.

Why is it taking so long to get the weapons integrated? Answer: the other partner nations do not have the same degree of interest in adding air-to-ground capability to Typhoon. Some of them bought it purely as an air-to-air platform. Getting UK-specific weapons into the multinational programme of works requires give-and-take with other nations' priorities. The only way to do it quicker would be to go UDI with the desired configurations, but the aircraft would then be outside the master programme and (presumably) much more expensive to administer. With a cynical hat on, I could observe that the status quo protects Tornado quite nicely in SDSR. Deletion would be on the cards if Typhoon was already capable of augmenting it!

Also, Typhoon does more than just QRA - don't forget the Falklands and a recurring NATO commitment in the Baltics. They probably do have the capacity for more, but until they have the capability, there is not much point.

[Bob Viking]

What were you thinking? A considered and reasoned response. That's not how this place works. Have a word with yourself.
BV:E

[Avtur]

And the ISIS Int O thanks you too.

[F-16GUY]

Avtur,

No information here that ISIS can use for anything other then knowing for a fact, that the stuff that just hit them was not dropped by a Typhoon.....

[Avtur]

So that's Typhoon struck off the ORBAT. Every little helps as they say at Tesco.

[Easy Street]

If it had slipped ISIL's attention that there are no Typhoons in Akrotiri, and they had missed all the news coverage of the repeated extensions of the third Tornado squadron (why bother if Typhoon was ready?), then I'm sure they will have missed the NAO's Major Projects Report, which lays out in excruciating detail the cost and timeline of the aforementioned upgrades (pssst... including something to do with a radar... but that must actually be sensitive because it's redacted).

See page 162 onwards (https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Appendices-and-project-summary-sheets.pdf)

Blanket stonewalling on security grounds has long since been consigned to history. Any infinitesimal value that the enemy may gain from aggregation of unclassified information must be weighed against the cost to our own side of ill-informed internal debate resulting from an information vacuum. It is important to keep our own people on-message!

[Two's in]

Any infinitesimal value that the enemy may gain from aggregation of unclassified information must be weighed against the cost to our own side of ill-informed internal debate resulting from an information vacuum.

Thanks Easy! Complex arguments brilliantly encapsulated in a single phrase...

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Thank you, so in effect our operational effectiveness is being hamstrung by our partners and there is a risk that we could not have a truly multi-role, multi-weapon system in time to retire Tornado. This aircraft is hardly new to the inventory and I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to rreplace. Thank you for the clear explanation E.S.

[Stitchbitch]

We could always go to the bone yard and ask the cousins for a few Harriers... ;)

[t43562]

This aircraft is hardly new to the inventory and I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to rreplace. Thank you for the clear explanation E.S. Surely this is a bit overly dramatic? It seems that the the idea is to get value for money out of the older aircraft first. This may not have been the best idea from the point of view of exports but surely the Typhoon will be an excellent replacement when the time comes and will grow into an enormous improvement? In the meantime, presumably when Typhoons are based in the Baltic republics they earn their keep as a quite serious deterrent?

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank you, so in effect our operational effectiveness is being hamstrung by our partners

Not really, we got what we paid for then wanted more. We rushed through dumb bomb clearance about 10 years ago, maybe not as far back as that, and also the gun.

There is obviously a queue for updates and while Typhoon might be nice to have now it is clearly not necessary as it would bring nothing new to the party. As said, it is employed elsewhere where the Tornado has no capability.

[Easy Street]

We could always go to the bone yard and ask the cousins for a few Harriers...

If there had been enough personnel and budget to consider running another fleet of fast jets, it would have been better to spend them on retaining more squadrons of Tornado, which would have allowed the maintenance of a greater weight of effort than seen presently. The pre-2011 plan was to retire Tornado in 2025, not 2019, so there would have been plenty of airframes available with which to run 5+ squadrons (which, granted, might have brought the OSD forward a bit) which in turn would have reduced the time pressure on the Typhoon upgrade programmes. But there are not enough people and not enough money, so a pointless argument.

[Union Jack]

I wonder why the old expression, "Fitted for, but not with", comes to mind....:hmm:

Jack

[ORAC]

I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to replace. I think that comment got lost and should have been on the F35 thread.........

[Martin the Martian]

And the ISIS Int O thanks you too.

He probably has a subscription to Air Forces Monthly already, where in last month's issue was a lengthy article going into the air-ground weapons integration programme on the Typhoon in great detail.

[WhiteOvies]

ORAC,

I think you'll find that F-35 is already more capable than the Typhoon, we just need a few more of them. ;)

[Just This Once...]

I guess that depends on what you count as capability. Not being able to fly in typical UK weather would appear to be quite a disadvantage….

[WhiteOvies]

JTO,

Where did you get that piece of information? I wouldn't believe everything you read about F-35 on the internet ;)

[Courtney Mil]

I think you'll find that F-35 is already more capable than the Typhoon

I don't think I will. There's a long way to go yet. You're a bit premature there.

[Just This Once...]

JTO,

Where did you get that piece of information? I wouldn't believe everything you read about F-35 on the internet ;)

I'm a little bit closer to the lightning issue than the internet….

But I have no idea who gave you the impression that the current cleared capabilities on the F-35 are anywhere close to that of Typhoon.

[salad-dodger]

I'm a little bit closer to the lightning issue than the internet….
Agreed, looks like you're pretty close to discussing the capabilities of F35 on the internet.

S-D

[WhiteOvies]

CM,

OK, perhaps a bit premature, but the delay in fitting an AESA and the limited numbers of fully A-G capable Typhoon is a significant limitation (putting to one sides the relative merits of stealth discussions).

JTO,

Glad to hear it. Who's clearances? Ours or the USMC?

Back to the aircraft being discussed in the OP, it is a great shame that investment and development in the Typhoon's A-G capability was lacking in it's early years, especially as I recall it being called the Jaguar replacement quite a few years ago. However, the reality is that we don't have the money to spend on all the capabilities we would like whne we want/need them and the priority for Typhoon was QRA capability, rightly so IMHO. Tornado is doing a great job on Shader, with Raptor again proving it's worth.

[a1bill]

I read the lightning inert gas issue is resolved and as well as testing, the f-35 has had a lightning strike in flight.

[ORAC]

Agreed, looks like you're pretty close to discussing the capabilities of F35 on the internet. The Yanks started it. (http://uk.businessinsider.com/here-are-all-the-problems-with-the-f-35-that-the-pentagon-found-in-a-2014-report-2015-3?r=US&IR=T)....

F-35B fuel tank redesign

The F-35B was given a redesigned fuel tank ullage inerting system for the fuel systems simulator – in English, this is the part of the plane that prevents potentially explosive interactions of oxygen and gasses in the aicraft's fuel tanks and intake. Further tests showed that the redesigned system had problems in aircraft integration that would require further hardware and software modifications.

Lightning fighter jets: RAF's new £100m aircraft could EXPLODE if hit by... lightning (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lightning-fighter-jets-rafs-new-5408173)

Pilots have been banned from flying the RAF’s new £100million Lightning fighter jets in a storm because it could explode if hit by… lightning.

MoD chiefs fear a strike may blow up the fuel tanks and bring down the stealth F35-B aircraft, the most expensive ever built for Britain, in a ball of flames. Top brass have ordered pilots not to fly within 28 miles of a thunderstorm and while on the ground the jets, which are still being tested, must be put under cover if lightning is reported within 11 miles.

SNP defence spokesman Angus Robertson, who brought up the safety issue in a series of parliamentary questions, said the MoD admission was “shocking”......

The MoD said: “The F-35 has yet to complete its lightning strike testing.

“Due to this, and the fact that design modifications are planned to meet required levels of performance, a flight restriction has been placed on the aircraft which prevents operation within 25 nautical miles of lightning conditions. This is reduced when the aircraft is on the ground to 10 nautical miles and also uses additional protection measures such as shelters. These restrictions will be lifted once modifications have been embodied and testing completed ahead of UK *Introduction to Service in mid 2016.”

[Geordie_Expat]

SNP defence spokesman

Surely an oxymoron ??

[Courtney Mil]

I don't want to turn this into another F-35 thread. Perhaps the lighting protection mods belong more fittingly on the other thread. That said, I need to draw some innocent comparisons to answer a question point.

it is a great shame that investment and development in the Typhoon's A-G capability was lacking in it's early years, especially as I recall it being called the Jaguar replacement quite a few years ago. However, the reality is that we don't have the money to spend on all the capabilities we would like

Yes it is a great shame. Although Typhoon was no more a Jag replacement than F-35 is a new Harrier, a new A-10 or a new F-22. The entire Typhoon project has, in some respects, been a great shame and it was a massive frustration to me when I was a small part of the programme. Without revisiting the entire story all over again, the politics and continual changing circumstances of four nations were always going to make a good idea very difficult to achieve. The simple fact is that the future capabilities (which should have been current capabilities) are there and the platform is ready to accept them with software development and hardware additions that were always part of the architecture.

Easy Street hit the nail on the cranium very well:

Why is it taking so long to get the weapons integrated? Answer: the other partner nations do not have the same degree of interest in adding air-to-ground capability to Typhoon. Some of them bought it purely as an air-to-air platform. Getting UK-specific weapons into the multinational programme of works requires give-and-take with other nations' priorities. The only way to do it quicker would be to go UDI with the desired configurations, but the aircraft would then be outside the master programme and (presumably) much more expensive to administer. With a cynical hat on, I could observe that the status quo protects Tornado quite nicely in SDSR. Deletion would be on the cards if Typhoon was already capable of augmenting it!

With Tornado's future fairly clearly defined, the pressure is now on for something to take on its capabilities. Now, here's an interesting thing, where will the UK Government and the MoD put that investment - the platform that is already in service and was designed to take it and has already cost the defence budget dearly or the next big thing with even more uncertainty in that it seems to be suffering equal or greater delays, capability slips and cost issues?

If it weren't for the need to put some jets on a carrier (the only thing that is currently supporting an irreducible number), I suspect I can guess which way they would jump. Especially as there are still people in the programme (at various levels) that still feel badly bitten by the Eurofighter hardships, broken promises and industry cynicism.

But it will all come down to money as usual and whether the UK Gov will accept a potentially long capability gap between Tornado and F-35. The danger being that the capability gap may turn into a full-time loss when the same issues appear in F-35.

Hard one, eh?

[Dougie M]

We might not need them at all






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