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Rhino power
10th Nov 2015, 14:04
Given that the Kfir uses a License built J79, would the US still have to approve this sale, or does the fact they're license built remove the issue? Assuming the sale actually happens of course, given all the recent to and fro over new aircraft for Argentina...

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/argentina-to-purchase-14-kfir-fighter-jets/

-RP

Lyneham Lad
10th Nov 2015, 14:34
Also reported on Flight International:-
Argentina to sign for AESA-equipped Kfir fighters (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/argentina-to-sign-for-aesa-equipped-kfir-fighters-418883/)

Stanwell
10th Nov 2015, 14:39
Looks like Hymie's Used Aluminium dealership has arranged financing via his brother Sol's 'No Deposit - Pay Us When You Can' scheme.

Sweeteners include brand new re-treaded tyres plus a free tank of gas - and, if we can wrap this up today, we'll throw in a set of genuine floor mats!
Fluffy dice can be provided at a discount.

Heathrow Harry
10th Nov 2015, 16:59
I hope they don't ever expect to be paid???

Maybe the AAF trying to get something before the new Presdient is elected???

ShotOne
11th Nov 2015, 09:34
The deal will hinge less on licensing issues than the more obvious issue of how they'll be paid for! Just spotted a tasty Mig 21 on tradeaplane for $90,000 US. Are you interested in a syndicate Christina?

AndySmith
11th Nov 2015, 10:13
As far as I understand, nothing will be signed under the present administration. Their minister of defence said this yesterday.

The opposition who are likely to win the presidential race have criticised the deal. The minister, Rossi, stated yesterday that the contract would be left to be signed (or not) by the next administration.

Meanwhile, the Mirages have been retired.... sounds a bit like the Harrier and carriers leaving a capability gap when retired.

Martin the Martian
11th Nov 2015, 13:00
So, just to sum up, first it was ex-Spanish Mirage F.1s, then Brazilian-supplied Gripens, then Russian Su-24s and now Israeli Kfirs.

Maybe they should just ask the RAF if they'd be willing to base a couple more Typhoons at MPA and maybe extend 1435's area of responsibility to cover mainland Argentina as well.

AndySmith
11th Nov 2015, 14:41
You are forgetting the Chinese JF-17 as well, that was mooted at one point. The Kfirs have been mentioned before now, however.

cokecan
11th Nov 2015, 16:35
there was a US F-16 deal on the cards in the 1990's(?) as well. the French strung them along with an F1 deal after the Spanish one went tits up - of course, it was the French who made the Spanish deal go tits up as they finally told the Spanish that they would not allow the French built aircraft to be sold to Argentina.

after Argentina had spent a fortune on training pilots to fly the F1's...

the French deal didn't last very long, iirc the Argentines had got wind that it was the French who'd screwed them over on the Spanish deal, and the French couldn't keep a straight face.

we shall see if this goes any further, but while its all worth a good laugh at Argentina 'upgrading' to a aircraft everyone else has scrapped, a dozen Kfir with an AESA radar and a handful of BVRAAM's would run our four Typhoons - unless they can be in 6 different places at once - ragged.

27mm
11th Nov 2015, 16:44
Not quite. KFIR's J79 is notoriously thirsty and would likely need some form of AAR support, unless big jugs are carried; which kind of negates its combat performance.....

Lyneham Lad
4th Jan 2017, 12:20
Flight Global - Argentinian Kfir negotiations set to resume (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/argentinian-kfir-negotiations-set-to-resume-432865/)

Snip:- Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has so far exported 40 Kfir Block 60 upgraded fighter aircraft, and plans to assemble and upgrade another 12-14 for Argentina.

Sources say negotiations about the proposed sale to Argentina are about to resume, following two previous rounds of talks that did not result in a contract.

Third time (un)lucky?

Fonsini
4th Jan 2017, 14:02
They just can't quite break free of the Skyhawk and Mirage III addiction can they.

I would start worrying when they buy some modern submarines, quite why they never attacked the supply line back up to Ascension was always a mystery to me, that's where my assets would have been employed.

Heathrow Harry
4th Jan 2017, 14:18
Still doesn't answer the question of where the $$$ will come from................ see teh Economist article below

suspect some Israeli salesmen fancy some winter sunshine and air miles..................

Recession emboldens Argentina’s opposition An end to a reformist president’s long honeymoon

Dec 24th 2016 | BUENOS AIRES



ASKED recently to rate his first year as Argentina’s president, Mauricio Macri gave himself eight out of ten. Some immodesty is justified. Almost overnight after taking office Mr Macri dismantled the populist policies of his predecessor, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. He eased currency controls; had the national statistics institute stop massaging inflation figures; and resolved a dispute with holders of overdue government debt, restoring Argentina’s access to capital markets.

Argentines have been less generous with praise. Mr Macri promised that by now confidence would be back and healthy growth would ease the pain of his reforms. Instead the economy remains sickly: GDP will shrink by 1.8% in 2016, says the IMF. In October industrial production fell by 8%, year on year; construction collapsed by 19%. One in 12 Argentines is out of work. Inflation may no longer be misreported, but looks stuck at 35%. With incomes crimped, households are spending 7.5% less on basic goods than in 2015, estimates CCR, a consultancy.

Lacking a majority in congress, until recently the president could at least count on disarray among rivals. The dominant Peronist movement once held together by Ms Fernández fractured after her candidate’s defeat by Mr Macri: moderates backed some of his ideas; hardliners refused to. With growth prospects receding, the two camps have put their differences aside.

In November Sergio Massa, a moderate Peronist, proposed raising the amount of income exempt from tax by 60%. This would please cash-strapped voters, but stretch the budget by 0.6% of GDP, equivalent to a year’s spending on public works. The opposition pushed the measure through the lower house on December 6th. The senate may do so on December 21st.

That would leave Mr Macri in a bind: signing the bill would scotch his plans to trim the deficit in 2017 from 7.2% to 6.8% of GDP; a veto may fuel a public backlash. He has been courting the country’s governors, hoping they talk sense to senators. Provinces stand to lose out if Mr Massa gets his way: income taxes are shared between the federal and regional governments.

A compromise, perhaps involving a lower threshold, is not out of reach. But the episode has already cast doubt over Mr Macri’s ability to complete the reforms—to rigid labour rules or bloated bureaucracy—that Argentina still needs. Observers see it as a portent that his Cambiemos (Let’s Change) coalition cannot live up to its name, says Jimena Blanco of Verisk Maplecroft, a consultancy.

Mr Macri may be hoping that opponents will find it harder to obstruct his proposals once economic revival proves these are working. The government forecasts growth of 3.5% in 2017, helped by farm exports and an end to a wrenching recession in Brazil, Argentina’s biggest trading partner. But neither looks assured. Brazil’s recovery has disappointed. And trade may suffer as more countries turn protectionist. Mr Macri’s second year may be more testing than his first.

glad rag
4th Jan 2017, 20:28
Reading the above from HH.... THIS is the time to throw them a lifeline, but one that WE control...

cokecan
5th Jan 2017, 09:51
what, you mean like the last time the UK had a close defence relationship with Argentina, when we sold them Type 42 Destroyers and Canberra bombers?

personally i'm a fan of defence engagement as a tool of foreign policy, but i'm afraid i think that in this case it wouldn't work in our interests - we could put 30 years of work and investment into it and we could find it biting us in the arse for the sake of some poor electoral results.

distasteful as it is the current policy - that of using our economic and diplomatic muscle to strangle any re-emergence of Argentine Air capability at birth - is the most effective way of keeping this argument in the diplomatic sphere.

Heathrow Harry
5th Jan 2017, 14:45
maybe we could sell them a few hardly-used T45's... and a tug.......

glad rag
5th Jan 2017, 15:10
Did I mention weapon systems?

:ugh:

Arclite01
5th Jan 2017, 15:29
WRT to Post #9

'Quantity has a Quality all of it's own..............................'

Arc

cokecan
5th Jan 2017, 16:47
Glad rag,

given that the thread is about Argentina trying to buy weapon systems, and you made a post about helping them - on our terms - what else were your refering to?

JCB's? Sweets? spare parts for vacuum cleaners?

glad rag
5th Jan 2017, 17:30
Indeed anything that strengthens the position of the current government

"Mr Macri may be hoping that opponents will find it harder to obstruct his proposals once economic revival proves these are working" [from the above post by HH]

who are unlikely to spend on weapon systems.

We [ergo the FI who MUST have the final word] would be well served by supporting the current non populist government in a suitable, controllable manner.

NutLoose
5th Jan 2017, 18:18
Don't forget Israel also has 40 odd F16a's that are looking for future owners too.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/6706/israel-retires-the-f-16a-b-netz-and-puts-40-up-for-sale

ShotOne
12th Jan 2017, 11:44
If the Argies did want them, any objection on our part would be treated with nothing more than mild disinterest by Israel. Of far more concern to them would be Argentina's (in)ability to pay. No doubt as soon as they can afford fuel for their coastguard RIBs, these F16's will be top of the list!

AR1
13th Jan 2017, 15:39
Still short on combat range if they want to visit the chaps I would think?

cokecan
13th Jan 2017, 18:10
possibly, but then Argentina is also in the process of buying - how fortuitously - a KC-130 tanker...

i don't know what Kfirs actual combat range is in real world conditions, but its worth noting that the figure given in Wikipedia is for an aircraft carrying seven 500lb bombs as well as AAM and drop tanks. what impact would losing the weight and drag of five of them be..?

i should point out that of course Kfir on its own can't get them the FI, but Kfir with a tanker and the political will to give a friendly wave to the air-bridge flights way out in the Atlantic would make holding them vastly more expensive than the current arrangement.

recceguy
14th Jan 2017, 08:59
So, just to sum up, first it was ex-Spanish Mirage F.1s, then Brazilian-supplied Gripens, then Russian Su-24s and now Israeli Kfirs.

Not forgetting ex-French Air Force Mirage F1s (-CR, -CT, even -C) dozens of them still available after the FAF went Rafale/Mirage 2000 only...

Anyway, an awfully ongoing long-story, for all those involved, including the Argentinian Air Force

Heathrow Harry
15th Jan 2017, 08:55
When the FFA talk to politicians I'll bet it's Chile they talk about not the RAF

Chile has 46 x F-16's, 9 x F-5, an AWACS and a KC-135 tanker

SirToppamHat
15th Jan 2017, 20:43
Interesting the the Israeli Air Industry regularly competes for UK Air C2 systems too. Nice to be a potential supplier to both sides - what are the chances?

Davef68
16th Jan 2017, 12:30
And in the meantime, they can't afford the fly the few remaining jets they do have

Just This Once...
16th Jan 2017, 12:58
we shall see if this goes any further, but while its all worth a good laugh at Argentina 'upgrading' to a aircraft everyone else has scrapped, a dozen Kfir with an AESA radar and a handful of BVRAAM's would run our four Typhoons - unless they can be in 6 different places at once - ragged.

Any offence air campaign that starts with 'buy some aircraft' is unlikely to achieve any level of tactical surprise. Should they ever get to the point of having a dozen Kfirs serviceable, fully armed, with trained crews and some kind of hostile intent I just cannot see how they would trouble a Typhoon. The Typhoon driver would have no good reason to allow a Kfir to get anywhere near missile engagement parameters - even if the Kfir could find and track a Typhoon without giving the game away.

Meanwhile a Typhoon pilot could happily use his considerable dry-power speed / energy advantage, datalink/ESM/Pirate and at least 2Nm altitude advantage to drive his aircraft and chuck his missiles anywhere he pleases.

No doubt the Book of Samuel is included with every Kfir but a victory by David is still doubtful.

CAW
17th Jan 2017, 23:36
Argentina is also in the process of buying - how fortuitously - a KC-130 tanker...

Not really. I wonder where this comes from.

i don't know what Kfirs actual combat range is in real world conditions

Barely enough to over fly Byron Heights. Not enough to engage in little things that only flourish in minds away from Argentina.

When the FFA talk to politicians I'll bet it's Chile they talk about not the RAF

First, It´s FAA = FUERZA AEREA ARGENTINA.

Second, Chile is Argentina´s safeguard against the RAF. Tide did turn in the past 25 years.

Meanwhile a Typhoon pilot could happily use his considerable dry-power speed / energy advantage, datalink/ESM/Pirate and at least 2Nm altitude advantage to drive his aircraft and chuck his missiles anywhere he pleases.

That´s of course true... if real world conditions would always allow. Ever heard about the Falkland-four-season-day? Was not there some trouble with the jet fuel some years ago? Did not a pair of EFAs had to divert to Punta Arenas some five plus years ago? (first time ever something like that happen in the South Atlantic, by the way)

Martin the Martian
18th Jan 2017, 13:13
CAW:

Argentina is looking to buy a couple of ex-USMC KC-130s, but without the IFR equipment.

CAW
18th Jan 2017, 18:13
Martin,

Argentina´s FAA is looking for planes to enlarge its C130 fleet. It´s been also upgrading some of the planes it has and it´s been at some point stablished that some 8-10 aircraft are needed.

The USMC planes were looked upon. I know that some five or six were chosen. Wether they are KC or not it´s not relevant since it´s not what the FAA is looking for. Anyway, the sale requires an authorization that will be left for Trump´s administration to clear or not. And then it´s the eternal matter of payments and delivereance schedules.

Since the retirement of the 707, F-28 and F-27 in the past eight years, the transport fleet of the FAA has gone shrinking.

Most recent news refer to the interest of both FAA and COAN for the C-295. Looks like no less than 4 of those planes could be ordered soon. And the KC-390 it´s also in the FAA plans

Marcantilan
27th Jan 2017, 13:39
And now...the MiG 29 enters the comedy.

https://sputniknews.com/business/201701271050058782-russia-argentina-mig-29/

Well, according to the press FA-50, M-346, Kfir, Mirage F-1, Su-24, Gripen NG (without british parts) and now the MiG-29 could be the next AAF fighter.

The neverending story.

T28B
27th Jan 2017, 15:16
Marcantilan, do you have a sense of why not the F-16 is not in that mix?
Is the cost too high or are there some lingering political issues between Argentina and the US?
It seems a good fit with a proven record.

Marcantilan
27th Jan 2017, 15:35
T28B, the "original" plan (back in the 90s) was to purchase first the A-4ARs (A4-Ms with upgraded avionics) and later the F-16s. I fact, the ARG-1 radar was a downgraded APG-66 radar (with a smaller radar dish), the same the F-16 then had.

Of course, the plan was not followed. In fact, an AAF CO once said the F-16 is problematic because the intake could absorb stones in the Patagonian Airfields (yes...) and last year the Ministry of Defense argued against the F-16 because the Chileans have problems with the plane (what problems???)

I think the AAF wants two sources of planes. One american (A-4AR) and the other from elsewhere. Just to escape any "embargo" in the future.

Regards!

Martin the Martian
28th Jan 2017, 14:17
I fully expect to read the headline 'Argentina in talks with UK for Tranche 1 Typhoons' before too long. At this rate they'll have gone everywhere else.

Heathrow Harry
28th Jan 2017, 18:42
well we did sell them warships once.................

XR219
28th Jan 2017, 22:01
Not to mention Canberras, Lynxes, HS.125s, Skyvans...

Heathrow Harry
29th Jan 2017, 09:03
pity we never threw in Lord Andrew LLoyd -Webber.................

Bigbux
29th Jan 2017, 19:45
CAW

Second, Chile is Argentina´s safeguard against the RAF.

Honest question. Why would Argentina feel the need to safeguard against the RAF? The RAF poses absolutely no threat to Argentina.:confused:

MACH2NUMBER
29th Jan 2017, 20:36
BB,
Quite right, in 2 years living at MP, I saw absolutely no aggressive intent in anything we did. There is only one possible aggressor in this theatre.

Just This Once...
29th Jan 2017, 21:08
Second, Chile is Argentina´s safeguard against the RAF. Tide did turn in the past 25 years.

That´s of course true... if real world conditions would always allow. Ever heard about the Falkland-four-season-day? Was not there some trouble with the jet fuel..

Not sure why you think Argentina is threatened by the RAF, or why you think Chile would share the same fantasy to the point on planing the defence for you.

I've spent quite some time flying in the Falklands over the years and as an OC, so yes, well acquainted with the weather - it is our turf after all.

:ok:

CAW
30th Jan 2017, 17:46
Just this once, BigBux and MATCH2NUMBER,

You mean you never got access to any of RAF offensive plans? They were outlined after MT herself asked for them back in October 1982. There are many "clues" (let´s call them) that suggest that not only Phantoms but Tornados as well flew out of the TEZ. Heading west that is...

A couple of Typhoons also had to divert to Punta Arenas, overflying argentinean territory back in 2012. First time ever that something like that actually happened. Was that the only course of action at the time? Some might suggest the real mission of that flight was to gather relevant information for the just arrived new hardware

Just This Once...
30th Jan 2017, 18:40
Pure fantasy I am afraid, as is the notion that you would have access to such plans and I would not - especially ones I may have helped to produce over the years.

Back in reality-land the defensive structure, composition and the nature of the forces based there are routinely outlined to the Argentinian government through diplomatic channels in a continuing effort to de-escalate any tensions. Even relatively minor changes in equipment due to obsolescence (e.g. Skyflash to AMRAAM) are communicated. Equally, the Argentinian government is not shy in making enquiries.

Oh and no, no Typhoon has ever flown over Argentinean territory. Argentinean air traffic granted permission to transit through the airspace controlled by Argentina on a weather diversion to Punta - they did so in a friendly and cooperative manner. A rehearsal for an attack it was not. Indeed, Falklands-based aircraft have never intruded into Argentinean airspace, but the reverse is reasonably common....

Anyway, rather rustic of you to think that the UK would look to put a package of aircraft from the Falklands in an effort against the mainland. Surely in your fantasy of UK aggression you would at least expect salvos of TLAMs from submarines?

The Junta that started a sneak attack on the Falklands over 30 years ago are long gone. The UK leadership that defended UK nationals are also gone or died of old age. The respective populations only want for peace and the UK military and Argentinean military even conduct reciprocal exchanges of personnel in a spirit of co-opeperation.

Finally, even if you really do still think that the UK intends to harm Argentina can you explain why, after 30 odd years and the near collapse of the Argentinean armed forces, we haven't actually done so already?

MACH2NUMBER
30th Jan 2017, 18:46
CAW,
You obviously don't believe me or BB. I ran the base for 2 years around the Millennium and I can assure you that my previous post is 100% correct. By the way, the Typhoon is not an ELINT platform.

MACH2NUMBER
30th Jan 2017, 18:55
JTO,
We overlapped, I could have said more, but CAW may not be the type to listen. Your post is spot on.

CAW
31st Jan 2017, 15:40
MACH2NUNMBER, I´m afraid you´re wrong, you judge me wrong. I do believe you. The main source of information we have over the whole Malvinas/Falkland issue are british testimonies, documents, writings, videos and phtographs. I do take you seriously, very I should add.

I also understand that time has passed and people can and actually change. I´m not a chauvinist crack-head. I´m just a citizen of my country trying to put up the pieces together. History develops before my eyes.

You and BB say that not offensive plans exist, well I´ll take that. The Official History of the Falklands War, by Lawrence Freedman, explains why and when those plans were drawn. There are also some sources that explain why back in the 80s the outer limit of the TEZ was actually the no-cross line, meaning that interceptions should be done -if possible- before the intruder got to cross it. You say that´s long passed and no longer appliable, well, again, enough for me; I´ll take it as the present truth.

Never said that the UK has plans to harm Argentina in a military way. I´m afraid I just did not make myself clear. I do believ that good-will prevails on both sides down south and that´s the main explanation for the lack of serious incidents since June 1982. I also know about some exercises run by both military in the past 20 years, thou I would not called them frequent. They are actually rare.

I also agree with you as for the wish of both peoples to live peaceful. It just happens that an open unsolved issue remains: sovereignty over the islands. It can surely be solved and we all expect it will be done sooner than later.

One last thing, of course you´re free to choose whom to listen or read. As for me, I choose to read you all.

MACH2NUMBER
31st Jan 2017, 15:56
CAW,
Many thanks for your honest clarification. All want to coexist in peace. The sovereignty issue is the real stopper. It is an issue for the Falkland Islanders and I think they won't be changing course any time soon. They have long memories, the 1982 invasion was the big mistake.
Best Regards

CAW
3rd Feb 2017, 21:23
End to all discusions?

Argentina officially suspends fighter replacement programme | IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/67438/argentina-officially-suspends-fighter-replacement-programme)

ORAC
26th Jun 2017, 11:51
Argentina wants six Super Étendards (http://alert5.com/2017/06/26/argentina-wants-six-super-etendards/)

La Tribune reports (http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/l-argentine-est-tres-interessee-par-l-achat-de-six-super-etendard-francais-741304.html) that Argentina is in talks with France to buy six second-hand Super Étendard carrier-borne fighters.

The main sticking point is the price as Argentina wants the jets for 10 million Euros while France is asking 12 million.

melmothtw
26th Jun 2017, 13:22
On the specific subject of the thread, it seems that an Argentinean Kfir deal was close enough for IAI to go ahead and build/refurbish the aircraft... Paris Air Show 2017: IAI looks to offload unsold Argentinean Kfirs to US 'Red Air' training companies | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/71570/paris-air-show-2017-iai-looks-to-offload-unsold-argentinean-kfirs-to-us-red-air-training-companies)

sandiego89
26th Jun 2017, 15:40
A small batch of SuE would make sense.


Are any of the original batch of SuE in Argentina operational? Tough to find any reference of when they last flew.

Heathrow Harry
28th Jun 2017, 15:38
They really don't NEED modern fighters.....

they only buy them to keep the military busy and out of the Cassa Rosado TBH -same in most S American countries

DuckDodgers
28th Jun 2017, 16:52
"he said, adding that Discovery Air has not been approached, though he did not elaborate as to why not."

That's because the LAHAV Division are trying to offload the ex-Netz ac to them......still.

Argonautical
28th Jun 2017, 22:20
A small batch of SuE would make sense

May I ask what "SuE" are please?

Rhino power
28th Jun 2017, 23:10
May I ask what "SuE" are please?

Super Etendard

-RP