EC135 missing in NSW

[John Eacott]

I hope that this turns out OK, but the EC135 has been missing since Saturday evening. Unsure why it has taken until Monday to start looking :hmm: Richard Green is well known amongst the Australian helicopter community and is already reported as the owner of the missing 135, so no breaking of confidence to name him here.


SEARCH UNDERWAY TO FIND MISSING HELICOPTER (http://www.nbnnews.com.au/2015/11/09/search-underway-to-find-missing-helicopter/)

The Australian Maritime and Safety Authority is co-ordinating an operation to find a helicopter that went missing between Tamworth and Sydney.

The EC135 took off from Breeza on Saturday evening and was headed for Mona Vale in Sydney’s north.

The helicopter, with three people on board, hasn’t been heard from since.

No mayday call or emergency beacon signal has been detected.

AMSA officers were notified this morning.

Rescuers, which includes the Westpac Rescue Helicopter, have picked up a ping from a telephone and are searching between the Hunter Valley and Sydney.

Seven helicopters are expected to join the search effort this afternoon.

Search underway for helicopter missing between Sydney and north-west NSW (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-09/helicopter-missing-nsw-breeza-sydney-search/6924568)

A search is underway for a helicopter with three people aboard which has not been heard from since leaving Breeza in north-west New South Wales on Saturday afternoon.

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority said the helicopter was flying to northern Sydney - a trip that should only have taken a couple of hours.

AMSA said the helicopter was only reported missing this morning just after 8:00am.

The authority's Dornier 328 Search and Rescue plane is inspecting the northern part of the likely flight path, while a rescue helicopter is searching the southern part.

The search area stretches from the Hunter Valley to northern Sydney.

No mayday calls or emergency beacons were detected, AMSA said.

[rockdoc]

Doesn't look good. Reports that phone signal reported from Acadia-Berowra.

Some big country in the southern end of the route.

[Stanwell]

Ooh dear.
There's a fair bit of tiger country along that route.
Here's hoping.

[Stanwell]

Latest report: 3 POB including pilot Richard Green and his wife.
Destination Terrey Hills.
Apparently, no Sartime was lodged.

[Dick Smith]

Unfortunately three deceased including my climbing friend from Balls Pyramid

[John Eacott]

Damn and blast.

Wreckage located, three people killed in helicopter crash at Watagans National Park (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/11/09/16/13/up-to-nine-aircraft-scouring-northern-nsw-for-missing-helicopter)

The wreckage of a Eurocopter helicopter with three people on board has been found this evening in Watagans National Park, south of Cessnock.

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority's search and rescue team has been coordinating the hunt today and confirmed there were no survivors on board.

A paramedic from one of 10 rescue helicopters involved in the search was winched down and confirmed the wreckage was from the missing Eurocopter.

AMSA was contacted this morning after the twin-engine helicopter with three people on board had not been heard from since it left Breeza, south-west of Tamworth, on Saturday evening.

Northern beaches businessman turned photographer Richard Green and his wife Carolyn were on board the helicopter, along with 71-year-old film maker John Davis.

The flight journey should have taken about two hours, and no mayday or emergency beacon had been detected despite the helicopter not arriving at its destination in northern Sydney.

The alarm was raised after the group did not return to Terrey Hills. Mr Davis' wife had been away over the weekend and contacted police this morning about 6am.

The group had travelled to Breeza to attend a protest against the Shenua Coal mine on the Liverpool Plain.

The search area was focused to the area where the wreckage was found following information provided by Airservices Australia.

Weather conditions were severe in the Hunter region on Saturday night, with thunderstorms and rain possibly playing a factor in the crash.

AMSA said it extends its condolences to the families and friends of those on board the helicopter and thanked all those involved in the search.

http://imageresizer.static9.net.au/hUJSA8whFkrYU2gppYHfLd0SsvE=/718x0/http%3a%2f%2fprod.static9.net.au%2f_%2fmedia%2fimages%2f2015 %2fnovember%2f09%2f151109_raw_missing.ashx


http://imageresizer.static9.net.au/e7Iki9TJD21EHyV1Kna4F2R2878=/718x0/http%3a%2f%2fprod.static9.net.au%2f_%2fmedia%2fimages%2f2015 %2fnovember%2f09%2f151109_raw_missing2.ashx%3fw%3d603

[chopdiz]

RIP. Carolyn was such a sweet lady.

[ACMS]

RIP to all.

Question for Dick Smith

Wouldn't that Helo be very well equipped for IFR? Glass cockpit, Garmin GNS 530 Autopilot etc?

What the hell happened?

[rockdoc]

RIP.

Was not good weather Saturday pm.

[Dick Smith]

I have no idea what could have happened .

I am happy to wait for the investigation to be completed.

[krypton_john]

So sad.

From the sound of it, no lives would have been saved here, but for such a small cost, everybody should have spidertracks or something equivalent.

[Duck Pilot]

SARTIME would have helped find the accident site earlier.

Terrible outcome, hopefully we all can learn from this tragic event.

RIP to all involved.

[9Aplus]

RIP
and condolences to all related.
His photos are the heritage...

[Desert Flower]

I am incredibly shocked & saddened to learn of this. I knew Richard & Carolyn very well, they often used to come through YLEC. I can even remember when Carolyn started learning to fly the chopper. It was only a few weeks ago that I located some photos that Richard had given me of places they'd been.

DF.

[Bull at a Gate]

Information and footage, already shown to police, suggests that the helicopter landed about 6kms from crash site, was on the ground for 40 mins or so, and then took off again heading east in bad weather.

[Nigel Osborn]

The TV news are showing excellent footage of the accident site, definitely tiger area & difficult terrain for the investigators.

Pretty damning report in the SMH this morning, hope they're not true.

[gerry111]

Dick Smith was reported by the ABC as saying thus:

"It could be that the regulator is not doing its job because in some of the things I've read, it really worries me that Richard was flying."

I agree with Dick.

RIP to all three and I'm thinking of their families and friends at such a sad time.

[SilsoeSid]

Sad news :(
RiP


Seems to me that Dick has said something that most were thinking.
Strange that on different threads, I've noticed that anti regulation behaviour is applauded down under :confused:

[Desert Flower]

"It could be that the regulator is not doing its job because in some of the things I've read, it really worries me that Richard was flying."

Errr - like what?

DF.

[Bravo73]

The TV news are showing excellent footage of the accident site, definitely tiger area & difficult terrain for the investigators.

Pretty damning report in the SMH this morning, hope they're not true.

Crashed helicopter pilot Richard Green had decade-long feud with air safety watchdogs (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/crashed-helicopter-pilot-richard-green-had-decadelong-feud-with-air-safety-watchdogs-20151110-gkv69j.html)

[Dick Smith]

I have been barraged by the media all day about a list of alleged quite serious safety incidents that Richard was alleged to be involved in,

If the claims are true I wished I had known about them beforehand .

I would the have spoken to Richard with a suggestion he change his ways otherwise he would most likely end up with serious accident .

Helicopters are complex machines and can operate in risky environments They need pilots with commonsense and an ability to at least comply with the regulations that are necessary to result in a acceptable level of safety.

By the look of it no flight note and no spider tracks .

I was in a similar weather predicament in the same location a couple of years ago so I landed the Agusta in a friendly persons backyard and caught a train back to Sydney Picked up the chopper a few days later

[Hasherucf]

Did he really try to maintain such a complex aircraft himself ? I hope that is a media beat up.

[Desert Flower]

I have been barraged by the media all day about a list of alleged quite serious safety incidents that Roger was alleged to be involved in,

If the claims are true I wished I had known about them beforehand .

I would the have spoken to Roger with a suggestion he change his ways otherwise he would most likely end up with serious accident .

What has Roger got to do with it Dick???

DF.

[Reely340]

A mere curious question: Is it legal in Austraila to matintan/repair your own a/c?

Over here in Austria (EASA colony) as a pilot you might be granted a permit to do ridiculously simple repairs to a helicopter, among them not(!) including oil change, let alone oil filter change. I'm positive that even then, you won't(!) be allowed to pluck out the bee the got stuck in your pitot.
I'm not sure but I think you may change the battery, but then, if it's secured by something with a screw, you might not. Anything else has to be done by an official workshop (CAMO).
E.g. not even the qualified mechanic working at such CAMO is allowed to "help" you with your chopper in his spare time over the weekend.

Thus importing the first EC135 to Australia would have one grounded at the next 100h (400h) inspection, would it not?

Maybe you could actually learn the ropes and be certified as qualified EC135 maintennance personnel, and assuming you'd purchase all tooling necessary (to repair damaged EC135 rotor blades, as Mr. Green did) would you be allowed to wrench on your ship and sign off maintennance slips?
Would EC be required to provide you with all maintennance documentation?


I think he did choose an a/c not suitable for his planned country of operation. He should have gotten himself a 109, if it had to be a twin.:E

[Dick Smith]

Thanks. Name has been corrected. Not thinking rationally after losing the three ,

[rigidkid]

Further reports in the media from local property owners in the vicinity of the accident have report hearing and sighting the EC135 landing and then minutes later departing into very nasty weather and approaching thunderstorms...surely this wouldn't be the case.

Without pre-empting anything, it appears that weather appreciation and decision making - human factors will play a leading part in the investigation.

Not for all the Tea in China .....would force me to fly into any conditions either VFR or IFR for that matter!

[Thomas coupling]

Surely what the papers report about him repairing a main rotor blade with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever - are simply headline grabbing - no?

IF true however, this man has taken two innocent victims to the grave with complete and utter disregard for safety or life?

Wonders never cease?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

WX Radar (http://www.theweatherchaser.com/radar-loop/IDR712-sydney-terrey-hills/2015-11-06-22/2015-11-07-22)archive for day in question.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Richard Green's submission (https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/asrr/submissions/files/021_r_green_30_dec_2013.pdf) to the Senate

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Dick, you need to investigate and satisfy for yourself. Keep an open mind and not take the sensationalist view.

[Nigel Osborn]

Sadly in OZ having a basic ppl with no instrument or navaid training can end in disaster so easily as the weather can be so fickle. Doing 5 hours or less a month may mean you are legal in terms of recency but not in real life when you are up against it. I've lost count how many searches I've had to do for missing pilots, bush walkers & fishermen over the last 45 years. Just a bit more planning & thought would make a huge difference in reducing these tragedies.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Notwithstanding last two posts. It is simply gobsmacking that Richard had landed out of weather. He was on the ground for considerable time and then relaunched back into the weather. This is the single issue that asks the question regarding Richard's airmanship!

The suspension is a side story, the issue is poor airmanship.

[601]

The suspension is a side story, the issue is poor airmanship.

Both are linked.

Airmanship covers a whole host of activities. The type of activities leading up to the suspension give an insight into the attitudes of the person

[onetrack]

Unless mechanical failure can be determined as the primary cause of the crash, then the attitude of Richard Green towards aviation activities repeatedly represents the activities of the boldest of the "bold pilots" brigade.
If no mechanical reason for the crash is found, CASA will be then be gloating, and utilising his prime example, as a reason for increased repression.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Yes, airmanship is the primary argument. However, the suspension issue is in dispute. CASA says and Green says are opposite. This site is replete with stories of CASA integrity. I say just look at the accident and see what comes out of it.

[krypton_john]

If mechanical issues are found, the next question will be whether they are related to maintenance carried out (or not carried out) by suitably licensed engineers.

[mickjoebill]

Other experienced pilots after decades of flying dangerous missions only come unstuck when a film crew are in the back seat.

I dont know if filming of an interview with the pilot or air to ground shooting was taking place during this flight but it should be explored.

Two witnesses indicate that, after leaving the festival, the crew had planned to recce local sites of interest to the filmmaker.

The cellphone video doesnt show high winds through the foreground trees.

We dont know why they landed.

Bom radar archive (correct me if Im wrong) has them taking off after the band of storms had moved through.

The combination of owner operator pilot, no oversight of the days flight plan, no oversight of day to day operation, a cameraman onboard and hand held filming is in my view as a cameraman, a scenario to be avoided.

They took off at around 1500hrs and crashed after 19.30hrs.


All onboard this flight were passionate about the subject of the documentary, quite possibly it became a contributing force in this accident.


Mickjoebill.

[G0ULI]

A passionate environmentalist and conservationist with a private helicopter?
Oh the irony!

[Dick Smith]

A number of the quotes attributed to me in the media are incorrect. I was interviewed for this Sunday nights Chan 7 Sunday show so this may give some greater accuracy. Of course this depends on how they edit it!

I did comment about how hard it is to get and keep a helicopter IFR rating in Aus.

I don't think any private pilots currently holds one.

In the USA you can do your IFR in an R22 or Jetranger and it is everlasting. Not even a requirement for a specific helicopter bi annual review- do it in a VFR Cessna 150 if you want to.

If some of the claims made to me by fellow helicopter pilots about Richards actions are true it shows that he was quite a risk taker. This may not have had anything to do with the accident of course.

[actus reus]

I agree it is necessary to await the investigation; however, Richard seems to have had quite a time of it.
From the Administrative Tribunal Transcript:

"I have noted that CASA has given details of earlier incidents, but that it provided details in the reviewable decision of incidents which occurred in 2012, in particular at paragraph 28 of CASA’s written submissions as follows:
During the period 4 May - 15 May 2012, the applicant was involved in 4 incidents during which there was a risk of a collision with other aircraft;

During the first incident, on or around 9 May 2012, the applicant was the pilot in command of aircraft VH-GKK when he flew directly over another helicopter, registration VH-RPQ, at approximately 30 feet or less. The down wash from the applicant's helicopter caused the main rotor on helicopter VH-RPQ to bounce. The pilot in command of aircraft VH-RPQ had to operate the rotor brake harder to prevent a tail boom strike;

During a second incident, on or about 10 May 2012, the applicant was pilot in command of aircraft VH-GKK when he flew the aircraft sufficiently close to another aircraft, registration VH-JIF, that the tail rotor wash generated by VH-GKK moved aircraft VH-JIF causing it to turn through approximately 30 to 40 degrees. The pilots of aircraft VH-JIF had to physically hold the aircraft down in fear of it being blown into the fuel bowser;

During a third incident, on or about 10 May 2012, the applicant was the pilot in command of aircraft VH-GKK when he operated the aircraft in close proximity to a Cessna Caravan aircraft, causing a very real risk of a collision with that aircraft;

During a fourth incident, on or about 15 May 2012, the applicant was the pilot in command of aircraft VH-GKK when he operated it close to two Airvan aircraft in an unnecessary manoeuvre, creating risk of damage to those aircraft, or injury to persons in the vicinity of the aircraft, generated by his downdraft;
On 28 November 2012, the applicant was pilot in command of aircraft VH-GKK when it struck overhead power lines approximately 105m from the point of take off. The power line snagged on the fenestron of the helicopter and pulled the power line until it tore the top portion of the fenestron off VH-GKK, The applicant flew the aircraft a further 200m across the gully before landing and inspecting the damage. The damage was significant, and the aircraft was unsafe for further flight, however, despite this, the applicant then proceeded to fly the aircraft approximately 250 metres in breach of subsection 20AA(4) of the CAAct;

The applicant has previously, in 2007, been subject to Counselling (sic) by CASA, following an incident where the applicant was pilot in command of VH-GKK when the main rotor blades struck a tree while landing. The four main rotor blades sustained extensive damage, however, the damage was not recorded on the maintenance release, the applicant carried out unauthorised repairs, and the applicant undertook flights in the aircraft after carrying out the unauthorised repairs.[ [I]comment: he repaired the blades with glue, flew to Cairns from the boonies, but rather than get the helicopter repaired in Cairns at Eurocopter, he decided to fly all the way back to Terry Hills in the Sydney suburbs!]

The applicant has been involved in the past in 6 incidents which have resulted in Airservices Australia advising CASA of safety incidents."

The AAT was not very sympathetic. Oh well, we will see. Terribly, terribly sad: RIP.
....

[LeadSled]

Other experienced pilots after decades of flying dangerous missions only come unstuck when a film crew are in the back seat.

Mick,
It wasn't a "film crew" in the back, it was a well known documentary maker hitching a ride home.

A mere curious question: Is it legal in Austraila to matintan/repair your own a/c?

Reely340,
The short answer is yes, if your are suitably qualified, or a pilot carrying out the limited maintenance allowed under Schedule 8 of the Civil Aviation Regulations.

In both legal and practical terms, Richard Green was suitably qualified. He had successfully completed a raft of courses at the factory, both theory and hands-on was required, he was passed out by the factory (in Germany) to their standards.

Based on the above, and on assessment of the record, the CASA AME licensing in Canberra issued him with all the necessary MAs (maintenance approvals) to maintain his helicopter. It has been said that Greg Vaughan issued the MRs, this is not true, the MRs Richard carried were as the result of normal CASA processes, even if opposed by the below.

Needless to say, this got up the noses of certain persons in a particular CASA office, who are apparently of the devout belief that a long and often meaningless apprenticeship, including cleaning lots of sparkplugs, and replacing lots of rivets in a C172, and torquing valve caps on your tyres to manufacturer's specifications, using a torque nutdriver with a current calibration certificate, is a prerequisite being allowed the privilege of putting your hands on an aeroplane.

Indeed, it might be said that the general position of the ALAEA is that pilots should not be allowed near aeroplanes, as every one that has ever crashed had at least one pilot on board (members of the Caterpillar Club excepted).


When Greg Vaughan resigned, said “certain persons” were instrumental in having Richard’s MRs summarily cancelled, he appealed this arbitrary bureaucratic decision to the AAT, represented himself, and won. The AAT found he was qualified to hold the MAs.



That’s when his troubles with CASA really started, and they have been on his case ever since. If you beat CASA in court, you are a “marked man”.


It is true that, many years ago, he had a very minor rotor strike in a very remote area of northern Australia, and carried out temporary repairs.



Based on his knowledge of manufacturer’s instructions for continuing airworthiness, he carried out the repairs to those requirements. What he didn’t do is comply with the CASA requirements of (in this case) having the damage assessed by a CAR 35 engineer, having the temporary repair carried out by a LAME, and getting a ferry permit.


He ferried the aircraft back to Sydney, where he changed to blades, and dispatched them to the factory for repair and overhaul. Without doing any further work on the temporary repairs, the factory assessed the repair as meeting their requirements and the temporary repair performed by Richard was signed off by the factory as a permanent repair.


His maintenance facility is most impressive, with no required tooling or test equipment lacking.


It always reminded me more like a hospital operating theatre, clinically clean and fastidiously well organised --- and, of course, CASA approved.


One of the things that impressed me was that he had the full deal equipment for maintenance of Ni-CAD batteries. When he bought the gear, something like 15 years ago, it was a bit over AUD $28,000, the reason few maintenance orgs. at Bankstown have one.


Richard Green was as far from being a reckless and negligent pilot, flying an incompetently, let alone illegally maintained aircraft, as it was possible to get.


He did regularly fly into difficult areas, which was the whole point of the machine, without it, his expertise in landscape photography would not have been possible. His long standing relationships with various Land Councils in northern Australia enabled him to get permits to enter areas most of us will never get.



You don’t get to have an exhibition in the Art Gallery of NSW without good reason.


Richard, originally a nuclear physicist, and an extraordinarily successful businessman was, in part, the victim of the “tall poppy” syndrome. Like many who have achieved as he had, he didn’t suffer fools gladly, or in the case of certain CASA persons, at all. As so many of you know, this only illuminates you as a CASA target.


I am absolutely disgusted at the scurrilous half truths and outright fabrications that are appearing in various media outlets, they didn't make them up, they have been briefed.



Tootle pip!!

[Arrrj]

LedSled,

Excellent post. Hear hear.

I've had my say on a local forum. No need to repeat it here.

Very sad.

Arrrj

[actus reus]

Ledsled,

I do not profess to know much about this, the thing that caught my attention apart from the appalling fact that there were deaths, was the fact that I had heard the name and the main rotor blade story somewhere before.

This was before I returned to Australia so the context as in who, what, where, was not known to me at that time.

When those blades from the tree contact reached Eurocopter, I am TOLD they were put in the bin.

I was in Europe doing a flight test programme (fixed wing) at the time and the 'story' of the 'ozzie blades' was related to me by a colleague who was a test pilot at Eurocopter.

The consensus seemed to me to be that an araldite epoxy repair was a fairly risky temporary repair to address incipient blade de-lamination.

Then again, it was a great dinner so my recollections may be a bit off.

If you have a look at the AAT, you will find that they said that Mr Green could carry out some maintenance but that he could not expect to have the same approvals returned.
Mention about his existing levels of approval only being available to a LAME.
I have not copied and pasted and the link seems to be disgracing itself but you should find what I refer to without difficulty.

RIP

[Freewheel]

Actus,

You are both correct and incorrect at the same time.

The incident mentioned with the 135 was the second time Richard had conducted a field repair to MR blades. The first was on his first aircraft, a Gazelle.

I recall that the Gazelle repair was found to be outside the tolerances for further service. There was some official response, which was documented in an industry publication at some point - I think I might have chucked it, can't find it for now.

Richard's response was to educate himself and secure appropriate training and approvals as documented elsewhere.

[SilsoeSid]

So, who signed for the duplicate inspections?

[Thomas coupling]

CASA: It seems you had a maverick in your midst and quite frankly the aviation world is now a safer place, since he departed. Probably vying for the Darwin Award but obviously failed many times before.

The terrible tragedy is that his poor wife and friend who were probably completely ignorant of this mans failings, were cruelly taken from this life as well.

Australia should do what the Yanks do in instances like this - (promote the dead pilot) except the opposite should apply and he should be postumously charged with manslaughter.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

He seems allegedly (and obviously) to have been an outrageous slur on a proud Australian aviation industry.:(

[Desert Flower]

CASA: It seems you had a maverick in your midst and quite frankly the aviation world is now a safer place, since he departed. Probably vying for the Darwin Award but obviously failed many times before.

I am totally disgusted at some of the comments I am seeing here, & particularly from people I thought would have had more decency.

DF.

[Reely340]

LeadSled (http://www.pprune.org/members/35234-leadsled) Reely340,
The short answer is yes, if your are suitably qualified, or a pilot carrying out the limited maintenance allowed under Schedule 8 of the Civil Aviation Regulations.

In both legal and practical terms, Richard Green was suitably qualified. He had successfully completed a raft of courses at the factory, both theory and hands-on was required, he was passed out by the factory (in Germany) to their standards.

Based on the above, and on assessment of the record, the CASA AME licensing in Canberra issued him with all the necessary MAs (maintenance approvals) to maintain his helicopter. It has been said that Greg Vaughan issued the MRs, this is not true, the MRs Richard carried were as the result of normal CASA processes, even if opposed by the below.
<snip>
Thx for the patient and elaborate answer. Very interesting information for me.

Needless to say, this got up the noses of certain persons in a particular CASA office, who are apparently of the devout belief that a long and often meaningless apprenticeship, <snip>Besides The Authorities always and everywhere being the enemy of GA, maybe these persons had friends in the maintennance industry which might have expressed their dislike of DIY repairing pilots? Along the lines of "imaging if people become qualified and start doing repairs themselves, like him! Do something about that!"

Based on his knowledge of manufacturer’s instructions for continuing airworthiness, he carried out the repairs to those requirements. What he didn’t do is comply with the CASA requirements of (in this case) having the damage assessed by a CAR 35 engineer, having the temporary repair carried out by a LAME, and getting a ferry permit.So, are you saying that even with his factory repair training, he couldn't legally repair the blades in the outback?
He should have gotten a CAR 35 engineer to the incident location to have the temporary repair done, right?
Or was he required to drag/cart/haul the untouched ship to a LAME to get the blades fixed, no field repairs allowed?

[Reely340]

Desert Flower (http://www.pprune.org/members/51467-desert-flower) I am totally disgusted at some of the comments I am seeing here, & particularly from people I thought would have had more decency. Well, regarding politeness you're right. However, considering the various incidents of blowing other people around and endangering them with ones rotorwash, it might be that those close to him, who witnessed his respect and care for the environment had their judgement clouded, not realizing how disrespectful and ignorant he apparently was towards other aviators.

[mickjoebill]

Mick,
It wasn't a "film crew" in the back, it was a well known documentary maker hitching a ride home


Not according to a friend....

http://www.begadistrictnews.com.au/story/3484351/killed-environmentalists-had-worked-to-save-southern-nsw-forests/


"A friend of killed veteran filmmaker John Davis, Dr Brian Spies, said the purpose of the helicopter flight was to film coal mines in the area for a documentary they were working on.

"Mr Spies said Mr Davis and fellow environmentalists Mr and Mrs Green were planning to use the footage to expose the environmental damage wrought by the coal mines."

John filmed a "one on one" interview with MP Tony Windsor at the festival.
So John had the means and motivation to shoot whilst airborn, as they had apparently planned.



Mickjoebill

[gerry111]

That's all well and informative, LeadSled.


But had you have been simply a happy pax sitting in the back of Richard Green's EC135 the other day? (Just before you also died?) Surely your immense flying experience would have led you to tap your pilot on the shoulder? (That's before you all took off again.) I've done so and have been known to simply walk away from these sorts of situations.


But your typical pax is so much more trusting. And they rather sadly die in these sorts of accidents.

[SASless]

TC...why the crappy comment about Americans while talking about a fatal crash of a civilian helicopter in Australia?

Nothing remotely involving Americans in this at all.

I would imagine most Aussie's would see you being a Prick by your comments and I would concur!





CASA: It seems you had a maverick in your midst and quite frankly the aviation world is now a safer place, since he departed. Probably vying for the Darwin Award but obviously failed many times before.

The terrible tragedy is that his poor wife and friend who were probably completely ignorant of this mans failings, were cruelly taken from this life as well.

Australia should do what the Yanks do in instances like this - (promote the dead pilot) except the opposite should apply and he should be postumously charged with manslaughter.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

He seems allegedly (and obviously) to have been an outrageous slur on a proud Australian aviation industry.:(

[Sarcs]

actus reus if you are going to quote from the AAAT Green v CASA transcript at least give both sides of the case..:=

Maybe this will give your post a shade more balance..;)


Dear Mr McCormick

I refer to our earlier correspondence and our telephone conversation of nearly a year ago. If you recall you made it quite clear that in your opinion I had operated my helicopter dangerously, and that I most certainly should not have the authority to conduct maintenance work on it.

The Senate Estimates Committee has taken some interest in these matters, and for your information I have attached a copy of a recent press article that summarises the outcome of the AAT’s detailed investigation.

After careful consideration Mike Hart had recommended an apology from CASA in relation to the former matter which, I am sure you will remember, you refused to issue. As you will be able to see from the article, perhaps an additional second apology from CASA is now in order.

What is far more important than apologies is the way in which CASA directs its efforts and public resources. CASA’s mandate is essentially to ensure safety for the travelling public. Is it really good allocation of these resources to expend perhaps a half a million dollars of taxpayers’ funds chasing after one private pilot, who flies only about 100 hours a year and almost exclusively in wilderness areas?

I look forward to hearing your views.

Sincerely

Richard Green

As predicted from @smh:

The experienced pilot had his license suspended for six months in 2013 over four incidents in one year where he almost collided with other aircraft and one incident in which he struck powerlines and tore off part of his helicopter.

In a submission to an air safety inquiry in 2013, Mr Green had demanded the sacking of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) board and other officials.

The submission reveals that Mr Green had been the first to import the high-performance Eurocopter into Australia and had immediately struggled to find qualified technicians to keep the machine flying. As a result he maintained it himself.

He complained bitterly about being investigated by CASA as far back in 2006 after he hit a tree branch while flying in Cape York in far north Queensland and how the incident had severely affected his authority to maintain the machine.

"I had a minor blade strike on a tree branch in a wilderness area in Cape York. In order to get the helicopter out of that location, I made a repair to the rotor blades," he wrote in the submission to the federal government's Aviation Safety Regulation Review.

"CASA's concern was not the fact I had a blade strike but what happened afterwards.

"My wife and I were stranded in the Cape York wilderness. Drawing on my training and an experienced-based evaluation, I made the sensible decision to effect a temporary repair that would permit a safe two hour flight to Cairns."

Mr Green said his alternative was to leave it "stuck in the wilderness" where it would have been difficult to repair and recover.

He said when he reported his actions to CASA an airworthiness inspector tried to revoke his pilot's licence, deeming the flight "dangerous and illegal".

He said CASA had "dramatically embellished the incident by listing a whole slew of alleged technical breaches of the regulations that flowed on from this primary incident".

Mr Green said he was required to show cause why his licence should not be revoked.

He then appealed to CASA's then head of aviation Greg Vaughan who instead increased Mr Green's authorities to conduct and certify maintenance on his helicopter.

However when the authority required renewal two years later, CASA refused to renew it.

Mr Green then successfully appealed through the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. He also said he faced further allegations of safety breaches as a result of his dispute with CASA.

He lashed out at CASA, saying "in my case alone well over 1000 man hours have been expended in trying to clip the wings of one private pilot who flies his own private helicopter about 100 hours a year and almost exclusively in wilderness areas of Australia".

He finished his submission by calling for "all the senior management in CASA ... to be replaced and the CASA board disbanded".

For those interested here is the Richard Green submission to the 'Pilot training' Senate Inquiry:

Dear Sirs

I write in relation to paras.(f) and (g) of this inquiry.

(f) the capacity of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to appropriately oversee and update safety regulations given the ongoing and rapid development of new technologies and skills shortages in the aviation sector;

Various communications of mine with the Director of Aviation Safety were copied to members of the Committee some months ago. These no doubt formed the basis of a question to Mr McCormick at the sitting on 21 October about a proposed apology to me. This in turn led into questions to McCormick about his dealings with the ex Industry Complaints Commissioner for CASA.

Mr McCormick’s misdirection of the Authority since he took charge has been scandalous and his untruthful answers to Senate questions are par for the course.

I had an AAT appeal running the same day as the referenced sitting. At this the McCormick supported personal attack on me by CASA was thoroughly discredited and my position fully vindicated. My own experiences with CASA provide an indication of the rot within, and can be multiplied many, many times over by the organisation's interaction with the wider aviation community.

CASA will not be capable of effectively overseeing any safety regulation until its current senior management is removed and replaced by balanced, informed and experienced individuals.

(g) the need to provide legislative immunity to pilots and other flight crew who report on safety matters and whether the United States and European approaches would be appropriate in the Australian aviation environment;

Unless there is legislative immunity safety matters will remain un-reported.
CASA has already frittered an estimated $250,000,000 on its attempt to rewrite archaic aviation regulations – all with no result. Its current management policy is for more complex unworkable legislation which maximises the number of personnel that the agency can employ.

A sweep with a completely new brush is required. The USA has a very effective and working set of regulations in place - there is absolutely no reason why we should not copy these.

Sincerely

Richard Green

And this was Mr Green's submission to the Forsyth (ASRR) review to which the SMH article refers:

21 Mr Richard Green - PDF: 141 KB (https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/asrr/submissions/files/021_r_green_30_dec_2013.pdf)

..As mentioned at the beginning of this submission, there have been many reports similar to mine of CASA’s misuse of its power. Most of the victims, unlike me, are dependent upon their aviation activities for their livelihoods. They therefore are intimidated into not speaking up. I have personal experience of this through my attempts to get expert witness statements to support me in my own defence. The individuals support my position, however, are not prepared to go into writing for fear of subsequent CASA retribution.

It is my firm opinion that major changes need to be made to CASA. It must be made accountable for its actions. Its focus must be changed to promoting a safety ethos within the industry, rather than merely being a short-sighted policeman only interested in chasing after regulatory infringements. It is not until these changes are apparent that the body will gain the respect that it should have within the industry.

In order for this to come about, I believe all the senior management in CASA need to be replaced and the CASA board disbanded. I believe it is critical and urgent that the chief executive needs to be replaced by an individual who can command the respect of the industry. And the Board should be reconstituted with a group of individuals who have real in-depth experience of all the major areas of the aviation industry.

A new ethos within the body driven by a strong but fair minded CEO should weed out those inspectors who have been misusing their power in order to satisfy their own personal whims.

These changes need to go hand in hand with the scrapping of Australia’s ridiculously convoluted aviation legislation. It should be replaced by legislation modelled upon a system that already works perfectly well – either from New Zealand or from the United States. Further the basic role of CASA needs to be changed to promote the aviation industry in Australia as well as ensuring its safety. CASA’s current charter, just to ensure aviation safety, is being achieved by grounding aircraft and closing down aviation businesses...

Remembrance Day 2015 (http://auntypru.com/forum/-Overdue-and-Obfuscated?pid=2710#pid2710)- Hung strung & quartered

Update - Absolutely disgraceful from Creepy... :hmm: - Courtesy the Oz with no fanfare, no pics, just barebones filthy journalism:

Pilot Richard Green’s final, fatal outing had no flight plan

The 74-year-old helicopter pilot involved in a fatal crash near the NSW Hunter Valley once flew his damaged aircraft from the Northern Territory to Sydney after fixing the main rotor blades with Araldite and was viewed by authorities as a maverick who flouted the rules.

Millionaire businessman and photographer Richard Green was regarded as an eccentric who *believed that he was being persecuted by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

Mr Green and his wife, Carolyn, 71, were also remembered yesterday as a “dynamic duo” who were “Green by name and green by nature”.

“They flew to the remotest of remote places like the Kimberly or in Tasmania to document these pristine wilderness places in the hope that people would recognise that these things are worth protecting,” National Library of Australia curator Nat Williams said.

The Greens and their friend and documentary-maker John Davis, 72, died on Saturday when Mr Green’s Eurocopter crashed in rugged NSW bushland south of the Hunter Valley. The trio were on their way back to Terrey Hills, in Sydney’s north, after attending an anti-mining rally south of Tamworth.

They were flying in bad weather and Mr Green did not have an instrument flight rules rating *allowing him to fly in low visibility using cockpit instruments. He also failed to send a notification to authorities outlining his intentions for the flight.

The millionaire was known to dislike bureaucracy and had his private pilot’s licence suspended for six months in 2013 after CASA accused him flying dangerously near several aircraft and flying his helicopter in an unsafe condition after he clipped powerlines.

He had been on the regulator’s radar for several years before its attempts to rein in his behaviour were successful.

He came under the spotlight in 2007 based on an incident in the Northern Territory where he damaged his main rotor blades when he clipped some trees while landing. He failed to report the damage and allegedly used Araldite glue to make an on-the-spot repair before flying to Cairns and then on to Sydney.

In 2010, the regulator refused to give him an authority to perform wide-ranging maintenance on the Eurocopter but was later forced to partly back down by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

CASA had more success in 2013 after Mr Green had struck power lines the previous year and ripped off the top part of a component on the tail.

Helicopter veteran Dick Smith knew all three victims and said yesterday he was appalled that Mr Green had not sent a flight notification and did not appear to have a real-time aircraft tracker installed in the helicopter.

“I don’t have one friend with a helicopter who does not have one,” Mr Smith said. Keen flyer Joe Lorincz told his wife that the pilot of the missing helicopter must have been “bloody insane” to fly in such bad weather before he even knew his friend of 43 years Mr Davis was also aboard the chopper.

“I feel very angry about it because if that helicopter was flying under the instrument flight rules, he would have lodged a flight plan and been given a responder code to track him the whole way,” he said. “Anyone who thinks they can meddle with bad weather is completely insane.”

Mr Williams, however, said Mr Green was “utterly fastidious” about safety aboard his chopper.

“I remember him telling me about fixing the blade with Aral*dite and it was a hairline crack; the guy was a physicist, not a risk-taker,” he said.

Remember this??

If you needed any further proof that the toxic culture of persecution & embuggerance by CASA continues unabated, go no further than the above - UFB! :*

In one foul, disgusting, swoop, CASA have effectively made any 'real', unbiased, independent investigation of this tragic accident by the ATSB, NSW Police & Coroner's office - nugatory, null, void, zip, zero.. :=

It should be remembered that under the ICAO SARPs (Annex 13&19) the Minister of the State & Crown (& his moribund Department), has certain obligations to protect the integrity and credibility of any active AAI.

The following is a quote from 'John Goglia' off this - 7K-9268 (http://auntypru.com/forum/-7K-9268?pid=2614#pid2614) - thread post:

..The highly unusual comments Monday from senior officials of Metrojet that the crash of one of its jets Saturday morning in the Sinai Peninsula was definitely caused by “external factors” does not bode well for the proper and thorough investigation of what brought down the airliner.

By already ruling out “technical fault of the plane or pilot error,” the airline violated one of the cardinal rules of accident investigation, which is to keep an open mind as all the facts are gathered and analyzed. By concluding mere days after the accident, that the fault was outside the airliner’s control, it is making a mockery of the investigative process, which should be based on factual data and appropriate conclusions from that data...

...In the United States, the NTSB has on more than one occasion excluded technical representatives from an accident investigation for making public comments that could be construed as interfering with the proper and impartial conduct of the investigation...

..This would be a small but significant step in reassuring the families of the victims of the impartiality of the investigative process.


Do you think this Miniscule, this (Dolan led) ATSB will now have the balls (like the NTSB) to exclude the morally corrupt regulator as a DIP to investigation AO-2015-131 (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/aair/ao-2015-131.aspx)

Remember this??- The current CASA smear/embuggerance campaign is occurring under DAS Skidmore's tenure. This means that he is either endorsing this pre-emptive character assassination before the facts ('A priori'), or he is not in control and being blindly guided by Dr A & the Iron Ring...:rolleyes:

MTF?- Probably not...P2 :E

[Nigel Osborn]

Importing the first of type helicopter into Australia always has problems, especially if the helicopter is a brand new type in the world. In 1978 Okanagan Helicopters in Exmouth became the second world operator of the Sikorsky 76 by 1 week, Air Logistics being the first.
6 of us were recruited to fly the 76, 3 as captains & 3 as co-pilots. The senior pilot went to the states for ground school along with the chief engineer. A Sikorsky instructor came to Perth to run a 2 week ground school; may have been longer.
When the 2 S76s arrived in Exmouth, a Sikorsky factory pilot was sent to endorse 7 of us. Also 4 factory engineers came to help our engineers & to do the various mods that seemed to turn up every week! Sikorsky left 1 engineer on site to assist for at least 2 years. Being serial number 3, numerous mods were done for the next few years.
The command endorsement was 5 hours then I think plus we all did our class 1 instrument rating, so by the time we flew off to the oil rig, some 175 miles away, we had about 20 hours each on type! With careful monitoring there were no pilot error incidents & DCA were helpful throughout.
I can imagine how hard it must have been for Richard Green as he had nowhere to look for help plus we flew 80 hours a month & so gained experience quickly compared to his 100 hours a year.
It's a tragic end for 3 enthusiastic people but as Ned Kelly is supposed to have said "such is life".

[Thomas coupling]

SASless ...I thought I was in your "peanut gallery" - no?
Or have you forgotten due to your age?
On the subject of dementia - the yanks recently promoted the two yank mil pilots who flew on with no gearbox oil pressure if you recall after purposely ignoring the reading which sat at ZERO for 10 minutes narrowly missing some houses as they eventually ploughed in. And the yank army Postumously promoted them - no kidding. Only in yankee doodle dandy land (The same one where that guy with the fake hair who is slagging off hispanics left right and centre is standing for president apparently).
So the connection is - the Aussie and Yank crashes were caused by mavericks. People who believe normal rules don't apply to them. They are immune from disaster.

You obviously don't remember that either?

C'mon sonny - stick with it.

[onetrack]

Leadsled & Sarcs - despite my respect towards your positions and skills, your posts look too much like outstanding character references for Richard Green, from close friends.

The entire narrative of Richard Greens aviation record is not quite as glowing as you would like to make it appear.

As one who has had direct experience with the upper echelon of the corporate world and circulating within wealthy circles, it's a fairly well-known phenomenon that extremely wealthy people often suffer from a degree of arrogance, are very often gung-ho - and in a very large number of cases, totally intolerant of "petty rules and regulations", that infringe upon the wealthy persons aims and wishes to do precisely as they wish - directly against those rules and regulations.

CASA's narrative - if Richard Greens crash is proven to be simply a severe case of "get-home-itis", directly into extreme weather that a prudent operator would simply avoid - will be a simple one.

They will simply say, "We tried for many years to stop this arrogant, gung-ho, and rule-busting aviation operator from killing himself, and his pax - but we eventually failed to do so.
Therefore our perception that this person needed constant and intense scrutiny of his gung-ho approach towards aviation, was correct."

Richard Green is on record as raging constantly against a rule-making authority that he obviously viewed as merely a sizeable impediment against his personal wishes, to do as he personally sought fit in the circumstances.

However, in the aviation world, one is obliged to accept that ones decisions and personal desires have to be tempered by rules and regulations set by an authority that is charged with total control of aviation safety, and which authority has direct reference to manufacturers and specialists whose skills and experience in aviation specialties are comprehensive.

[mickjoebill]

From what we know it is my view the EC135 was on a aerial filming and transit mission.

10 lives have been lost in oz in aerial filming accidents in recent years.
3 x rotary and 1x fixed wing crashes.
At least two other rotary close calls, Channel 10 and the Jetranger into water.

Worksafe and Workcover defer to ATSB and say they dont have resources to investigate the background of aviation accidents.
Police report to the coroner largely relies on ATSB
Coroner largely relies on police.
CASA, the records shows are INEFFECTUAL.

If ten lives had been lost in a very niche area of any other industry there would be at least AN ATTEMPT to educate the workforce.



Mickjoebill

[HappyAs]

I imagine this accident has more to do with airmanship rather than mechanical / maintenence issues.

It appears IMC conditions existed at the time of the flight which raises the question of whether the pilot was IFR qualified, and was the IFR rating:


mostly achieved in actual IMC conditions, even though simulated instrument flight time is acceptable
current

Conservative personal minimums that exceed the legislated minimums should be the norm.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
See today's Australian for a column by Steve Creedy, reporting Greg Vaughan on the record about the details of the rotor repair --- it is as I stated in my original post.

And yet, in the matter of the most recent action against Richard by CASA it was claimed in the AAT (see previous posts) that there was extensive blade damage --- which was simply not true.

This could be described as standard CASA tactics in the AAT, dredge up a list of allegations, but not the outcomes of those allegations. Commonly, lists of RCAs are trotted out, but never the resolution of the RCAs.

As for the rest of the complaints dealt with in the AAT appeal, most were subjective, "flew too close" etc., it now seems that you can have your license suspended on subjective third party opinions on "airmanship".
The only "fact" was that he had a line strike, to suggest that continuing flight for a few hundred meters amounted to "continuing flight" is highly subjective, it looks to me more like an immediate landing, followed by moving the aircraft several hundred more meters to a safer patch of ground.

Mick,
There had been filming at Breeza and around the general area in the days before, but there was no film crew on this flight.

As to the cause of the loss, I have not made any comment, I do not have an opinion, because I have no facts, on which to base an opinion.

[Lookleft]

So it can be reasonable assumed that the EC was kept in very good mechanical order. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable you are in other fields, in aviation you are only as good as your last decision.

BTW Sarcs good to see you back on Pprune, did you get tired of your own voice on the other site? Don't tell Kharryon, he might have you demoted from being a Moderator.:}

[mickjoebill]

Mick,
There had been filming at Breeza and around the general area in the days before, but there was no film crew on this flight.

Not sure if you are being pedantic or have a witness that saw JD board without a camera.

"Film crew" equals solo operator with dslr or video camera, as per how the MP says his interview was recorded.

If there were memory cards on board they have probably survived, given there has been no reports of post crash fire.


Mickjoebill

[havick]

Just out of curiosity, if Richard has been using his helicopter for the purposes of aerial filming (whether it was this particular flight or previous ones), does he have an AOC or was he operating under someone else's AOC?

This is a genuine question, as there have been quite a few accidents I've noticed in the past that could have been prevented purely by way of the flight should not have legally been able to occur in the first place. Eg CFIT at night when the pilot wasn't night current or not enough fuel to have legally carried out the flight in the first place etc.

** I didn't know Richard at all, sad to see more fatalities in this game.

[MajorLemond]

Condolences to all those lost, and with all due respect but repairing rotor blades with epoxy, such a critical part of the aircraft, I mean, that is just absolute madness!

I'm trying to read through these posts and all I can envision is this machine sitting on the ground while someone is mixing up a little resin and hardener and smearing it on the rotor blades. Must have used a decent quality epoxy if he got it all the way down the coast to his house.

Anyway,

Hopefully a thorough investigation proves fruitful in providing some answers.
As much as the guy is getting slammed for his record of incidents, nobody knows what happened yet.

CFIT, windshear, mechanical failure, engine failure, bird strike etc.

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm ....

......In the USA you can do your IFR in an R22 or Jetranger and it is everlasting. Not even a requirement for a specific helicopter bi annual review- do it in a VFR Cessna 150 if you want to......

Dick ... that is just not quite correct ... yes you can get a Helicopter Instrument Rating that stays on your pilot certificate BUT you still HAVE TO MEET THE RECENCY REQUIREMENTS in order to exercise the privileges of that rating ... if you do not maintain the currency then you have to do a flight with a CFII to renew those privileges ... having said that it does seem easier to us here BUT they do have a very much more workable system and it has proved its worth over time.

Cheers

[Vertical Freedom]

Rest in Peace

[actus reus]

Freewheel,
Thank you for correcting me; I was unaware of the fact that there were two seperate MR strikes in two seperate helicopters. As I said, it was a great dinner!

Sarcs, Ledsled;

Just hold on a minute fellas. I have no interest in entering into your war with CASA.
It should come as no surprise that Richard Green's epistles should be in support of his own position. It would have been ludicrous if his missives were presented in some other way.
That; however, makes neither Richard nor CASA (nor anyone else for that matter) either erroneous or correct.

Similarly, I am not trying to relate the entire proceedings of the AAT. I just found the information of interest. As I have also said, we will have to wait for the report of this tragic accident to commence to understand the trail of events.

As for 'a priori'; theoretical deduction is commonly used in the construction of test flying programmes, for instance. You get the test points and then you go out, fly them and seek evidence (the 'scientific method') that the theoretical is demonstrable in the practical.

It does not mean that 'a priori' predictions are always of less value. Somethings you either cannot or do not want to test in the air, or are items that cannot be faithfully replicated in a simulator.

'Evidence', 'demonstration' are the things that you achieve; never 'proof' unless it is 'proof' of the catastrophic; something that inevitably leads to disaster and must be avoided by all means.

[blackstump]

Thomas coupling you are a ********
What are you telepathic?
How do you or anyone else know what occurred as yet
Stop flogging the dead before we know what went on
Get a frigging hobby or something
Do you get off on hearing (seeing) yourself in print or something?

[yarpa]

Moderators, time to put a leash on Thomas, too many warm beers I think. Show some respect.

[LeadSled]

Condolences to all those lost, and with all due respect but repairing rotor blades with epoxy, such a critical part of the aircraft, I mean, that is just absolute madness!

MajorLemond,
Could you please re-read previous posts, and today's Australian.

The temp. field repair was made to manufacturer's instructions for continuing airworthiness, using materials as specified by the manufacturer.

When the blades were returned to the factory for overhaul, no further work was required on the temp. repair, and it was certified and released for return to service, as was.

Does that really sound like "absolute madness" by the manufacturer/type certificate holder or by Richard Green.

Tootle pip!!

PS: The F-27 was the first aircraft to use extensive epoxy bonding (trade name, Araldite for one chemical company, tradename Redux for Fokker.) in primary structures. It was the primary reason for the for the tremendous fatigue resistance and long life of the F-27 structure. I doubt there is any modern aircraft flying that doesn't use "Araldite" metal to metal bonding --- by whatever proprietary name.

[nigelh]

Onetrack ...you sound like a slightly more "chippy" version of our TC .....
It is amazing what a mean spirited bunch helicopter pilots are ...i would have thought there would be some sort of bond that stopped people from making accusations about a fellow ( dead ) pilot regarding his final flight . The theory that there is no smoke without fire is one that only the really low grade people use . I very much doubt the discussion would have been the same if he had not have been rich and owned his own machine . Some of you need to get over your own inadequacy and stop being jealous and judgmental . IF he flew when he should not have and it was pilot error im sure the AAIB will find out but give the bloke a chance !!!

[HO74IR]

Well said nigelh - no shortage of commentators here who'd qualify for a job with the regulator !~

Rest in peace Richard and Carol.

[Stanwell]

Thanks for that, chaps.
I also found TC's pontifications, in particular, objectionable at this stage.

[Delta Torque]

Sad to see a thread on this respectable forum descend into the depths of ignorant regulator bashing. You don't want rules and regulations? Piss off, and don't fly in my airspace, then.
Forget the salacious gossip and intrigue, the media hype, the half truths. Have some respect for the families left griefstricken by this accident, let the investigators do their work, and be done with it. Forget the personalities and empty speculation. It's just a tragic, fatal accident.

[claudia]

Nigel well said.

[What Red Line?]

Quote - "The temp. field repair was made to manufacturer's instructions for continuing airworthiness, using materials as specified by the manufacturer.

When the blades were returned to the factory for overhaul, no further work was required on the temp. repair, and it was certified and released for return to service, as was." - End quote

And the source of this information is/was?

[Desert Flower]

It is amazing what a mean spirited bunch helicopter pilots are ...i would have thought there would be some sort of bond that stopped people from making accusations about a fellow ( dead ) pilot regarding his final flight .

Yes - especially those who claim he was their friend. If he had friends like that then I'd hate to see his enemies!

DF.

[LeadSled]

And the source of this information is/was?

Red Line.

CASA!! That good enough for you?

You will also probably find it in the AAT transcripts of evidence in the case that Richard won, requiring CASA to reinstate his MAs.

Tootle pip!!

[cattletruck]

Poor Richard, he was very smart, he was a nuclear physicist. Poor Richard, he was very outspoken on issues he believed in. Poor Richard, he was very critical of bureaucracy and red tape and probably felt he was above all those menial rules for stooped people. Poor Richard, it looks like his demise was caused by simple CFIT, something CASA has been trying very hard to reduce the frequency of.

Seen it before with a friend's super smart mate who done himself in during a take-off in a very benign Cessna 172.

It was the primary reason for the for the tremendous fatigue resistance and long life of the F-27 structure.

Not quite, according to our resident blamax who has taken the time to enlightened us all on bonding techniques, it's all in the application.

[Thomas coupling]

Look guys, I know there are some close mates of Green on here. But can we remove emotion from the equation for a moment and look at hard facts. Pilots are supposed to bias more towards facts and less towards emotion when dispensing their profession, so let's keep it like that when we look at what is presented to us.

A friend of mine died in the Police Strathclyde crash, an associate died clipping a crane in Vauxhall, London. I looked at the facts and even though they were my colleagues - the facts painted a very ugly picture.

In this instance, I have been reading a lot about this persons track record between him and CASA and his earlier "incidents".

I can't speak for the mentality of aussie pilots and their industry but I would definitely align it to ours because of the synergies we have between our relative societies.
Now in the UK, ANYONE who clacks a blade, not once but twice - and then attempts a field repair as an UNqualified helicopter engineer - and then continues in flight; is most definitely guilty of gross negligence as a pilot. Someone who nearly collides with / blows over other a/c is guilty of negligence .
Someone who flies his a/c in IFR conditions without the correct qualifications is guilty of negligence and poor airmanship.

All of the above paints a picture.

In this country, any/all of these attributes (or lack of them) would describe a very very unprofessional approach to one's trade, I would suggest.

Now - either all the sources (newspapers/colleague interpretations/reports/casa statements are untrue or unsubstantiated - in that case I profusely apologise for second guessing and retract any distasteful comments. OR
They are true and this man was a liability to all around him and the industry is safer now that he has 'moved on'.

Out of curiosity who witnessed himlanding for a while before he took off again back into the bad weather? How is it known that he did this, so far out in the boondocks?

[Reely340]

Pilots are supposed to bias more towards facts and less towards emotion Absolutely, I'm with you regarding the posthumely promotion of them dip**** US-army pilots, but let's look at the facts here:

A)Thomas coupling (http://www.pprune.org/members/19161-thomas-coupling)
Now in the UK, ANYONE who clacks a blade, not once but twice - and then attempts a field repair as an UNqualified helicopter engineer - and then continues in flight; is most definitely guilty of gross negligence as a pilot.True, but he was qualified (acc. to Eurocopter) and his repaired blades didn't need any mod. by the manufacturer.

B)Thomas coupling (http://www.pprune.org/members/19161-thomas-coupling) Someone who nearly collides with / blows over other a/c is guilty of negligenceTrue, and he's guilty of that.

C)Thomas coupling (http://www.pprune.org/members/19161-thomas-coupling)
Someone who flies his a/c in IFR conditions without the correct qualifications is guilty of negligence and poor airmanship.True, but we dont know that, yet. That short video clip of his passing over the videographer didn'tlook like IMC to me.

Case A) is on the border of calumny, especially coming from CASA. Looking at the facts everyone who - despite the facts - publicly claims, that back then he were flying a badly reapaired, unworthy a/c owes him an apology, CASA, you(?), all the rich-guy bashers led by emotion instead of fact.

Case B) is plain and simple true, he did behave like an asshole sometimes.

Case C) is totally open to investigation, facts are currently unknown, and, as you stated correctly, we ought grant him benefit of doubt until proven otherwise.

Which currently(!) leaves us with an definitely sometimes ignorant, selfish, but nervertheless in many cases very cacpable pilot/mechanic.

[onetrack]

Thank you, cattletruck. That is exactly what I was pointing out, despite some previous posters accusing me of being inadequate, judgemental and jealous.
I am precisely none of those, thank you very much - I am a retired successful businessman who ran his own business from the day I left school at 16, a Vietnam veteran and military engineer - and I have spent more time in boardrooms dealing with senior corporate executives and cutting sizeable deals, than many previous posters are ever likely to do.

What I am pointing out, is that, regardless of the reason for the crash, CASA's narrative towards Richard Green will now be - "We tried for years to stop this gung-ho, rule-bending individual, from killing himself and his pax - because we could see the writing on the wall at every turn - and now he has succeeded - and we now have to cop flak, because we weren't harsh enough in our efforts to make his approach to flying become more safety-oriented".

nigelh, what is your narrative? "We don't need CASA looking over our shoulder, we know it all!"
"But he died doing what he loved!!"
Yes, he did - but the thing is, there was no need for him and his pax to die.
I wonder if your comments would be different if it was your partner, or your parents, that died with Richard Green?

Richard Green may have been a highly successful businessman, and a qualified nuclear physicist - but that doesn't necessarily translate to being a superb helicopter pilot with flight and pax safety as a priority.
Then again, numbers of people merely lives their lives, with the full intention of killing themselves well short of the regular allotted human lifespan.
And the numbers of highly successful businessmen who think they are Top Gun at the controls of an aircraft, because their large piles of money enabled them to easily purchase that high-dollar-value aircraft, is quite surprising.

[Thomas coupling]

This country's helicopter crash record is littered with rich arrogant people who think that because they were successful at business, automatically makes them brilliant at everything else.
Whether they sit in the pilots seat or in the passenger seat telling the pilot what to do - they think they are ABOVE THE LAW and normal operating rules do not apply.
I suspect there are a couple of those "posers" here on Pprune, not to far away.........................

Luckily for most, they grow bored with their toy and move onto something else in which to kill themselves. But some simply remain and make lots of noise and bluster.

[Heliringer]

Agree 100% with TC above.

I've met and flown the odd millionaire/billionaire and normally they think the rules and weather don't apply to them.

The report will be interesting.

[LeadSled]

Now in the UK, ANYONE who clacks a blade, not once but twice - and then attempts a field repair as an UNqualified helicopter engineer - and then continues in flight; is most definitely guilty of gross negligence as a pilotThomas etc,
Some of you chaps seem to have quite severe difficulties reading the English language.

Richard Green was qualified, both legally and practically, for the maintenance work he did. By virtue of factory courses completed, and CASA issued MAs (Maintenance Approvals) Richard was probably the best qualified person in AU to work on an EC-135.

The field repair after the rotor strike to the EC-135 was done to manufacturer's specifications, using manufacturer approved materials, the aeroplane carried a repair kit in the flight spares for just such an eventuality.

As to the very selective CASA record, and his 6 month suspension, only somebody with experience of how CASA approaches the Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) would understand how entirely subjective judgements on often highly reports on "airmanship" results in a license suspension.

As one example, removed from this case, available in the ATSB files, SW of Sydney a CFI of a local flying school reported an "airmiss" with another aircraft, and "reported" the other pilot. The result of the investigation was that the separation, in Class G airspace (based on radar data) was 3nm+ and 500' vertically on a CAVOK day. Near miss????

Have a look at the CASA "accusations" at the AAT, except for the wire strike, all were subjective, none were offenses against the regulations.

It is no secret that quite a few people did not like Richard, (especially several CASA employees) but since when is "liked" a prerequisite for holding a pilots license. If "being liked" was mandatory, I can think of a not so short short list of FOIs whose licenses should be suspended immediately.

Thomas, believe me, dealing with CASA is nothing like dealing with UK CAA or FAA , and I deal with all of them on a regular basis. Find a copy of the Forsyth Report into CASA ( one of the investigative team was ex-UK CAA Board), the results are absolutely damning, mistrust of the regulator was a virtually universal theme, from airlines down to individual respondents, like Richard Green.

[whoknows idont]

It is amazing what a mean spirited bunch helicopter pilots are ...i would have thought there would be some sort of bond that stopped people from making accusations about a fellow ( dead ) pilot regarding his final flight . The theory that there is no smoke without fire is one that only the really low grade people use . I very much doubt the discussion would have been the same if he had not have been rich and owned his own machine . Some of you need to get over your own inadequacy and stop being jealous and judgmental . IF he flew when he should not have and it was pilot error im sure the AAIB will find out but give the bloke a chance !!!

Amen to all of that! If I was a mod I would have closed the thread with that post as the last one!
I am aware that this is a rumour network and things are supposed to be discussed but this thread is just sad and disgusting for the most part! And I think it is below the usual standards of this board!

Edit: A guy who does a legal and proper field repair to his MR blade surely doesn't sound to me like "the odd millionaire/billionaire" who thinks "the rules and weather don't apply to them"...
The least bit you can do to respect the deceased is to stay on topic here!!

[SilsoeSid]

Are duplicate inspections not required down under?

[nigelh]

Onetrack ...nigelh, what is your narrative? "We don't need CASA looking over our shoulder, we know it all!"
"But he died doing what he loved!!"
Yes, he did - but the thing is, there was no need for him and his pax to die.
I wonder if your comments would be different if it was your partner, or your parents, that died with Richard Green?

Im afraid i never said any of the things you attribute to me . You may be reasonably successful but understanding the written language is obviously not your forte !! I believe he MAY have been guilty of SOME of the things attributed to him , but it appears many where either not true or trumped up ...like the near miss in VFR . What we do not know is the precise reasons for the accident . It may have been pilot error , it may not . My problem is with you guys pronouncing him guilty before he has had a trial . The way you, and other types like TC, write means that you certainly "appear" to be jealous . You use language that screams jealous to me ....arrogant ,rich ,posers etc
Now maybe you made millions and bought a helicopter ..but TC as sure as hell didn't and it shows !!!!
As for myself ( as i assume TC was firing at me ! ) i have both worked as a pilot and owned many helicopters and employed many pilots . Maybe i am a "poser" but i still fly regularly , have never had any fine from the CAA but have been accused on two or three occasions of low flying / near miss of someones house ..etc which i am afraid is always going to happen when there are so many people out there who i guess would love a helicopter but cant afford one !!
I now am in no doubt at all at the sort of things that the charitable lot here will say the day i stove in ...God forbid . So TC , Onetrack ...why not just wait , and then you can go for the jugular if it is proven he messed up .
Also, i for one would not believe much CASA have to say on the subject of a man they see as a maverick .

[terminus mos]

Are duplicate inspections not required down under?

Yes Sid, they are required in Australia.

Having a blade strike, I would be worried about drivetrain damage.

[LeadSled]

Are duplicate inspections not required down under?

Yes Sid, they are required in Australia.

Having a blade strike, I would be worried about drivetrain damage. Terminus mos,
Bit misleading in your answer, are you not?

There is only a narrow range of matters that require a duplicate inspection. A duplicate inspection can generally be done by a suitably licensed pilot. Caroline Green was licensed pilot, rated on the EC-135

As to "drive train damage", ever heard of manufacturer's guidelines for assessing damage and the resultant required inspections. That was what was applied, the factory clearly agreed with the assessment.

I would hate to being paying the bills for maintenance based on somebodies' "worries", rather than the manufacturer's instructions for continuing airworthiness.

I would dispute that Richard Green was a cowboy, as an engineer he was meticulous, he had the best equipped workshop I have seen (see previous posts by me) and re. flying, all the accusations at the AAT were subjective judgements, not breaches of regulations.

There are some very narrow minded people in aviation in Australia, who have lived in such a stultified and sheltered environment all their lives, that they believe their "take" on acceptable behavior under the general heading of "airmanship" is definitive, when in fact, a pilot from US or UK would find it unrealistically narrow minded and parochial. If the average Australian assessment to VMC/VFR was followed in UK, for example, quite a deal of GA VFR flight would not happen. Does that make those pilots in UK guilty of the offense of "poor airmanship"?? NO!!

Who has got it right?? Just compare US air safety outcomes to Australia, that will answer the question.

As I have already said, if being "disliked" was disqualifying as a condition for a pilots license, quite a few would probably be out in the cold, with a significant number of CASA FOIs top of the list.

Tootle pip!!

[SASless]

TC,

Just have to be the Prick don't you.....as we say in my part of the World...it is the empty barrel that makes the most noise!

It is back to the Peanut Gallery for you....as your posts do not merit reading!

[terminus mos]

LeadSled

Of course I know when a Duplicate is required and who can perform one.

I don't know the Pilot concerned or his wife or their qualifications other than what I have speed read on this gossip thread.

My own "worries" have kept me alive since I have had a CPL / ATPL, 35 years, maintenance bills notwithstanding.

Since I said nothing else about the Pilot or his "operation" I consider that the rest of your post must be directed at someone else.

Tootle Pip indeed

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

This thread is a bit disgraceful. A bunch of children either whining about CASA or stabbing each other in the back. Three seemingly respectable people have died and not one poster on this thread has ANY idea why the accident happened!

Quite why this should provoke so much hostility, prejudice and childish behaviour is a mystery.

[blackstump]

Double Bogey
I agree
never heard anyone anywhere anytime armed with so little information or having taken so little time to read information from 'events' past throw so many daggers and slander a person so much.
Plenty of people on this thread I would not like to share a life raft with
Makes you really want to be a pilot when you think you may end up sitting next to some of these people here

[Hughes500]

DB

Well said, I have seen more manners and civility at a children's tea party. If this is the way this forum is going not really sure I want to be known as a helicopter pilot. Jesus guys you really do know how to bring our community to a place it should never be:sad:

[John Eacott]

Having known Richard for more than 30 years I am finding some of the ill informed and judgmental comments here to be both in poor taste and quite offensive.

LeadSled has explained quite succinctly that despite assumptions otherwise from those outside Australia, Richard went to great expense to have himself qualified by the manufacturer to carry out his own maintenance on his own machine, which was then ratified by CASA who issued him a Maintenance Authority to carry out such maintenance. Not only that but he spent a fortune on the tooling and parts needed to carry out such maintenance, and carried Eurocopter kits with him whilst flying into the bush to ensure that he could fix any snags whilst in designated remote areas. Snide comments by TC about the UKs accident stats with 'rich people' has no validity down under.

I suggest that discussion about this tragic loss of life come back to a reasonable discussion about known facts, and less speculative character assassination from some who have basically no idea what they are talking about.

[Clinton McKenzie]

+1.

(For content: Plus one.)

[Blowie]

Can anyone advise funeral or memorial details for Richard and Caroline please?

[Squawk7700]

I can't help but feel that many don't realise that "Araldite" make many products including epoxy resins for fibreglass products. The Jabiru for example has many structural components based on Araldite LC3600 epoxy resin and this is the resin used during contruction by the builder for joining components. It's BLOODY strong.

Quoting "Araldite" gives the impression of glueing up a "quick fix" which is not the case.

[Thomas coupling]

So let me get this right:

A helicopter pilot factory authorised to repair a blade, has a blade strike miles from anywhere (otherwise he would have easily been able to recover it by road)
He then fixes it with araldite or whatever, rings the factory to tell them what he has done and uses his wife to do the duplicate inspection and goes on his merry way.
Oh - nearly forgot - he does this not once but again on another occasion.

Are you advocates from Aussie, telling me this is acceptable practice?

[RVDT]

So let me get this right:

A helicopter pilot factory authorised to repair a blade, has a blade strike miles from anywhere (otherwise he would have easily been able to recover it by road)
He then fixes it with araldite or whatever, rings the factory to tell them what he has done and uses his wife to do the duplicate inspection and goes on his merry way.
Oh - nearly forgot - he does this not once but again on another occasion.

It depends on the extent of the bull$hit TC. You should know.

A helicopter pilot with a Maintenance Approval to give him all the privileges of an LAME issued by the NAA CASA.

Are we talking about a huge crack in the blade or a PU tape maybe lifted or split after a minor impact with something?

Roads or what you may be familiar with as what is described as a road are rare in Australia.

Fixes it with Araldite or whatever - Araldite is in the EC135 AMM Consumable Materials list along with lots of "whatever" as well.

Rings the factory and tells them what he has done - possibly after he had actually done the repair in accordance with the
maintenance manual after reading the damage limits? Evidence that the limits were not exceeded would be indicated
by the fact that no further action was required after consultation with ECD?

Uses his wife to do the "duplicate inspection" - wouldn't be required. Although as a licensed and type rated pilot she would have been fully entitled to if required.

Are you advocates from Aussie, telling me this is acceptable practice?

Apparently so. Who knew?

I met Richard on a few occasions in passing back when he operated a Gazelle.

Eccentric maybe but certainly no idiot.

So its back to the Mail Online TC - nothing to see here.

[What Red Line?]

RVDT wrote "a PU tape maybe lifted or split after a minor impact with something?

See for your self.


http://i63.tinypic.com/2i1cmrc.jpg

[actus reus]

Very tragic and we will have to wait for the report as we all know; however, the word 'around the campfire' in Europe, and this is a rumour site remember, is that Mr Green did not inform the factory of his bush repair until he was back in Sydney.
Mass balancing and tracking come to mind...

[Thomas coupling]

RVDT:

I guess you're just the type I was trying to describe, perhaps.

Green: Hello is that airworthiness, Eurocopter?
Eurocopter: Yes.
Green I am license number and approval number ^&89($%.
Eurocopter: And?
Green: I just clacked a blade in the boondocks and repaired it i.a.w. BCAR A3-25 sub section 3(b).
Eurocopter: Did you cure it for the full 12 hours?
Green:Ah, yes, sure did.
Eurocopter: Did you check for creep beyond 13mm on the number 2 and 3 TR bearings?
Green: Yes.
Eurocopter: Did you check for delamination of the Thomas Couplings?
Green: Didn't need to, the trailing edge split was only 15cm long. And it impacted 30cm inboard of the static tip.
Eurocopter: OK, you'll need a duplicate inspection, I'm afraid.
Green: Done that - it's my wife with approval number: $$4%66&.
Eurocopter: Send a picture?
Green: Can't - don't have a signal.
Eurocopter: Not to worry, do it when you get home.
Green: Cheers guys.

Like other posts have SHOWN and SAID (since your last post) RVDT - truth is stranger than fiction.

Now what was that bit about the sacrifical strip lifting?

Bull****: "You have control".:=

[Squawk7700]

Mr Green did not inform the factory of his bush repair until he was back in Sydney.


Since when is it a requirement to inform the manufacturer of a repair carried out in accordance with their and the aviation regulations requirements?

The only reason I can think to notify them may be to order a new set...

Unless you needed advice of course.

[RVDT]

TC,

WRL has posted a picture of the damage - apparently. Whether it is actually the blade damage in question?

If it in fact it IS a picture of the damage I am sure that under the present circumstances of an open accident investigation a visit from CASA and the AFP will be pending to establish whether it may or may not have been a contributing factor. Contributors to this forum are not that difficult to locate.

I have given Richard the benefit until proven otherwise.

It is a FACT that I do not KNOW what actually happened and neither do you.

Like other posts have SHOWN and SAID (since your last post) RVDT - truth is stranger than fiction.

Hahaha - everything on here is fiction (bull$hit) - just the depth varies.

[Peter3127]

RVDT wrote "a PU tape maybe lifted or split after a minor impact with something?

See for your self.


http://i63.tinypic.com/2i1cmrc.jpg

That is the trailing edge yes? I can imagine a delamination from a blade strike but how does one pull a chunk out of a trailing edge like that hitting something?

[SilsoeSid]

As there is no reference, link, other sized version or any other conversation to be found on t'internet about that photograph, that I can find anyway; to post it here giving the impression that it shows the previous damage to the 135 referred to in this thread with no other verifying information relating to it, is imho, out of order.

As it shows apparent impact damage to the trailing edge, it is dubious at best and for the moment must go into the 'deep bull****' tray.

'What red line', can you tell us where they photograph came from please?



"97% of all information found on the internet is a load of bollix"

US President, Abraham Lincoln

[chopjock]

That is the trailing edge yes? I can imagine a delamination from a blade strike but how does one pull a chunk out of a trailing edge like that hitting something?
Peter3127 is offline Report Post

If the machine is descending and the blade has a high angle of attack, the trailing edge can be exposed in this way.

[SilsoeSid]

Chopjock If the machine is descending and the blade has a high angle of attack, the trailing edge can be exposed in this way.

Can't quite picture this chop jock;
The angle of attack is an aerodynamic angle, and you say "if the machine is descending", please could you post the vector diagram that you're looking at as I can't see how the trailing blade becomes more exposed in this scenario.

[chopjock]

please could you post the vector diagram

I don't have a vector diagram, but if you imagine a high pitch angle on the blade with no airspeed and a settling with power scenario (over pitching), the trailing edge would be lower than the leading edge and thus more exposed to first strike whilst descending to land for example from the hover.

[SilsoeSid]

I don't have a vector diagram, but if you imagine a high pitch angle on the blade with no airspeed and a settling with power scenario (over pitching), the trailing edge would be lower than the leading edge and thus more exposed to first strike whilst descending to land for example from the hover.


Oh, you're talking about pitch now!

So, from the hover, in the descent to land, in a settling with power (over pitching) scenario :confused:

I guess stranger things happen at sea :bored:

[ericferret]

Min pitch on most helicopters is a plus figure e.g BO 105 +4 degrees.

So I believe that in a hover descent the trailing edge would be the lowest point.

[chopjock]

Oh, you're talking about pitch now!

I was talking about the angle of attack of the blade, as per the photo of the damage to the trailing edge of a blade.(Which allegedly was damaged whilst landing in rough terrain?)
What angle of attack did you think I was talking about??

[[email protected]]

You've just raised that 'bollix' figure to 98% chopjock - talk about lurid imagination.

[chopjock]

You've just raised that 'bollix' figure to 98% chopjock - talk about lurid imagination.

How would you account for getting a dent in the trailing edge of a blade then?

[John R81]

The answer has to be "Abraham Lincoln" After all, we've just been told that he predicted the level of bul$$it on the Internet.

[SilsoeSid]

Chop jock,

We'll leave the angle of attack discussion, it's clearly pitched too high for you. (See what I did there!)

The photograph posted on this thread, which shows that trailing edge damage, more than probably has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. Looking at the picture, the yellow colouring is very dull/matt, (could be dirty I suppose), it covers a larger area than the traditional 135 blade colour scheme and the curvature at the leading edge tip is a lot longer and not so curved as a traditional 135 blade;

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2i1cmrc.jpg

http://www.aviation-avionic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ec135.mts_-1024x665.png


Despite the leading edge damage being a red herring here, in answer to your question; "how would you account for getting a dent in the trailing edge of a blade then?;
May I suggest that the blade may be moving backwards before hitting something or maybe the stationary blade is hit by something else. Damage to blades doesn't have to occur when they are under power or even when they are rotating.


So, if we can stick to the facts of the matter;

"I had a minor blade strike on a tree branch in a wilderness area in Cape York. In order to get the helicopter out of that location, I made a repair to the rotor blades," he (Mr Green) wrote in the submission to the federal government's Aviation Safety Regulation Review.

Now, doesn't that sound as though the more 'traditional blade strike' type (minor) damage had occurred?

[Hot and Hi]

So in one word: This sensationalist picture of a blade damage of another helicopter of a different type altogether has zero relevance to this discussion.

SilsoeSid, nice picture of a H135 though! After all, it is possible to land on a dolly...

[Agile]

Yes, but that dolly is a bit better than the one form the other thread you are referring too, it is a bit bigger (as such the pilot can see the front of it almost) and it has those stability feet's.


cool EC135 picture (white on white)

[What Red Line?]

SiloeSid.


Check your PM

[SilsoeSid]

WRL, I have thanks.
Just waiting for you to post.

[chopjock]

Looking at the picture, the yellow colouring is very dull/matt, (could be dirty I suppose), it covers a larger area than the traditional 135 blade colour scheme and the curvature at the leading edge tip is a lot longer and not so curved as a traditional 135 blade;


This sensationalist picture of a blade damage of another helicopter of a different type altogether has zero relevance to this discussion.


Are you sure about that?
It's a composite blade, it has the right colour, in the right place, pointing in the right direction seen from the back it appears to have a similar shape tip too!
Looks like a 135 blade tip to me.

[SilsoeSid]

chopjock, you know that you should't believe all that you see on t'interweb;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/2i1cmrc_zpsd3rm2ufv.jpg

Besides, where's the metal leading edge that can even be clearly see in this pic?

http://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/s3/digital-cougar-assets/AusGeo/2015/11/10/59431/Richard_Green_4.jpg

[chopjock]

Besides, where's the metal leading edge that can even be clearly see in this pic?

I have enhanced the pic a little, it can be seen easily now...


http://s17.postimg.org/5esb4o333/2i1cmrc.jpg

[What Red Line?]

SiloeSid


Did you receive/read my PM? Still awaiting your response.

[MightyGem]

SiloeSid


Did you receive/read my PM? Still awaiting your response.

Yes, he did.

WRL, I have thanks.
Just waiting for you to post.

[Dick Smith]

Can anyone advise me who did Richard Greens recency checks?

I am interested because of the difficulty for private helicopter pilots in Australia to gain let alone keep an instrument rating.

Yes. I do understand Richard may not have held an IFR rating.

That may be my point.

[Dick Smith]

I will try again

Does anyone know if there was a way for a pilot to be checked out for an IFR rating in Australia in Richards model helicopter?

It has been claimed to me that there was no way of getting an IFR rating for a private pilot in that model helicopter in Australia.

Seems strange.

Any info much appreciated. Richard was a helicopter enthusiast and there is most likely an explanation if he did not hold an IFR rating.

[Evil Twin]

G'Day Dick

I think The Aviator Group 'may' be able to do it. Not 100% certain but I'm sure a call could confirm it.

Cheers
ET

[Twist & Shout]

If the machine was certified SPIFR.
(No idea about EC135s, but would be surprised if they couldn't be. AS335s can be for e.g. And A109s ;) )
It should have been a matter of passing the theory test, completing the required training at an IFR school and passing a flight test.

Of course under the present CASA inflicted disaster we are lucky anyone is allowed to do anything. So who knows what the current hurdles are? (I can currently fly IFR in multi engine helicopters, but that doesn't allow me to fly any single in VMC, let alone IMC! Seriously?) If you are rated on ME aeroplanes and helicopters and want to fly single engines as well you need to do a minimum of "4 flight reviews". End rant.


Maybe call an IFR helicopter flight school like Beckers on the Sunshine Coast QLD and ask them. They should be up to speed on the latest. (And maybe the situation at the time.)

[RVDT]

Does anyone know if there was a way for a pilot to be checked out for an IFR rating in Australia in Richards model helicopter?

Dick,

The catch would possibly have been "in" Australia.

You would need to find someone to do the checks who is current on the type and IFR current. As there are possibly no commercial
operators operating them IFR it could possibly have been different.

Outside of Australia with the exception of initial issue for a "rating" the "type" part of it could be accomplished and accepted by CASA in a Level "D" simulator.

Would involve a fair bit of travel to either Germany, UK or the USA on a regular basis.

Today there are possibly 2 Level D sims in Australia but operated for the military only unfortunately which is a little short sighted
and narrow given there are a few 135's in the country.

The 135 can be a tricky little beast in some ways and time in the sim will increase anyones capability in the machine as there are some
things you cannot demonstrate successfully in the real aircraft.

You can no doubt can meet CASA's completely banal requirements as the absolute minimum standard but after a ride in the sim and having
the book thrown at you makes you realise how much better off you are for the experience.

I do my own recurrence on the type in the SIM but have to do BFR's in an actual machine due to the "regulatory structure" which is really a joke in comparison.

[havick]

Yes there were examiners/ATO's that could have done IPC/CIR-ME at the time on the 135 in Australia. I'm pretty sure the company that was running 135's doing MPT work out of Gladstone were using an independent ATO/Examiner for their instrument renewals/initial issues.

[Bull at a Gate]

EC 135 fatal. Lower Hunter Valley 7 November 2015.

No real surprises. Too keen to get home.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/aair/ao-2015-131/

[MagnumPI]

ATSB report has been published:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5774221/ao-2015-131_final.pdf

[heliduck]

Figure 3 on page 7 stands out for me, hunter valley is the lowest terrain & goes all the way to the coast but the track taken was over tiger country. Hard way to learn that lesson.

[Bull at a Gate]

But going the long way would have got him back after last light. Hence the fatal decision to head directly home.

[heliduck]

With the benefit of an armchair & hindsight the holes in the cheese were lining up early in the trip, if only it was so obvious to us pilots when we’re making these decisions in the heat of the moment. Terrible outcome.

[Thomas coupling]

Heliduck - there you go:

That's your first hole in the cheese, old boy.
Bad weather and high terrain shouts and screams to normal pilots - what's NOT obvious with this?

He suffered "Press-on-itis", which is terminal for some.

[Ascend Charlie]

It is a fatal flaw in a lot of successful businessmen.
He had the determination to be a success in his original business, he made a lot of money and moved to Oz, he made the effort to learn to fly his H300, then upgraded to a Gazelle, made a lot of changes to it, studied the engineering aspects of his Gazelle, he made a brilliant business out of his nature photography, and he turned his new twin helicopter into the most expensive campervan you could wish for.

Nothing stood in his way, and all credit to him. Sadly, a hill stood in his way this time.

[Cloudee]

Two and a half years to publish this? Take away the report padding and you’ve basically got what was revealed in the first couple of days in this thread. How many man hours went into this, at what cost? Sure, they have to rule out mechanical issues, but once they did, it shouldn’t have taken this long.

[gulliBell]

Two and a half years to publish this? Take away the report padding and you’ve basically got what was revealed in the first couple of days in this thread. How many man hours went into this, at what cost? Sure, they have to rule out mechanical issues, but once they did, it shouldn’t have taken this long.

Probably took so long due higher priority other tasks when all was pretty much known early on. Absolutely nothing to learn from this prang that hasn't been reported many times before, so not surprised the report took as long as it did.

[Dick Smith]

I find it strange that the pilot did not leave any form of flight note before departing.

i wonder why.

[flopter]

I find it strange that the pilot did not leave any form of flight note before departing.

i wonder why.
Maybe it needs Common sense to do so.. and his flight ops didn't require it? ..more the pity.

[Ascend Charlie]

Richard had plenty of common sense, and being a 1-man private outfit, he didn't have a FltOps centre.

Maybe if he didn't have other pax on board, he and his wife may have spent the night in the chopper, something they had done many times before - that machine was able to be kitted out as the best campervan you have ever seen. Sadly for all, he didn't.

(Dick, he was one of your mates and almost a neighbour - a big loss.)

[Desert Flower]

that machine was able to be kitted out as the best campervan you have ever seen.

You've heard the old saying "it has everything but the kitchen sink"? Well that "campervan" did have the kitchen sink - even though it was only a plastic washbowl! I remember Carolyn laughingly showing it to me one day.

DF.

[Squawk7700]

Two and a half years to publish this? Take away the report padding and you’ve basically got what was revealed in the first couple of days in this thread. How many man hours went into this, at what cost? Sure, they have to rule out mechanical issues, but once they did, it shouldn’t have taken this long.

Because it is a very advanced and complex helicopter fitted with autopilot and other goodies. If they rushed out the report the armchair experts would be commenting along the lines of "it had auto-pilot, why didn't he just press go-to and sit back and relax." They need to dot their i's and cross their t's with these complex types. The same thing happened with the ABC chopper out of Maree that likely went in due to night proficiency.

[Squawk7700]

I find it strange that the pilot did not leave any form of flight note before departing.

i wonder why.

I can honestly say that I don't know many people that do tell someone where they are going. Partnered pilots if they leave their other half at home tend to tell them where they are going but single guys generally don't tell anyone. Those that do tell their partners generally don't tell them the route either and that could end up varying significantly on the day.

[Desert Flower]

The same thing happened with the ABC chopper out of Maree that likely went in due to night proficiency.

Shouldn't that read due to LACK of night proficiency? And & don't think that helicopter would have been fitted with much fancy stuff.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

I find it strange that the pilot did not leave any form of flight note before departing.

i wonder why.

In all the years I knew Richard he never left a flight note with me before he departed for his next destination. Probably because he didn't know where his next destination was going to be. He would just fly along, & if he saw somewhere he liked the look of he would land. Granted, this case was different.

DF.

[Squawk7700]

The ABC chopper was a can of worms due to it being a twin and a heli type that if I'm not mistaken had never been crashed before here in this country.

[gulliBell]

The ABC chopper was a can of worms due to it being a twin and a heli type that if I'm not mistaken had never been crashed before here in this country.





Close, but no cigar. West Coast Helicopters needlessly crashed a twin Squirrel in Perth many years ago (operated for WA Police). From memory, landing down wind at a school oval and running out of puff and bouncing it at the bottom. Caught fire. Made for a good photo on the front page of the morning news.

[John Eacott]

NSW Police didn't fare too well when theirs was goffered by a wave, either.

[Ascend Charlie]

goffered by a wave,

Now there's a navy term you don't hear much these days! mackas, goffers, kip, pit, bin, the list goes on....

[Squawk7700]

Close, but no cigar. West Coast Helicopters needlessly crashed a twin Squirrel in Perth many years ago (operated for WA Police). From memory, landing down wind at a school oval and running out of puff and bouncing it at the bottom. Caught fire. Made for a good photo on the front page of the morning news.

I'll re-phrase.

The first to spear in, in less than obvious circumstances.

[John Eacott]

Now there's a navy term you don't hear much these days! mackas, goffers, kip, pit, bin, the list goes on....

Gulpers, sippers, cab, Crab, ACRB, HNs: time for another thread?

[[email protected]]

Just work with ex-RN SAR rearcrew and you have more than enough Jackspeak to go round��

[Thomas coupling]

Morning men, starboard 10......
This is a true story:
Naval colleague of mine is a navigator on board one of the Type 45 Destroyers, currently. He was on the bridge when the Captain turned to a brand new 'scroat' and asked him the time. This baby sailor fresh from training responded without a second thought and said:
"4pm Sir".
The Captain looked at him sideways and said: "That's not very nautical able seaman smith".
Upon which (and with the same enthusiasm and rapid response) the scroat said: "4pm me hearty!"
The bridge erupted with laughter....................