Middle East Doubt

[AGR98]

Hello.
Iam from Briazil. i've bem flying in a Major Airline since 2008. Here we are used to Fly from 65 to 85 hours/ month, with 8 days off, this is for Domestic flights.
This is normal here, right now they change the regulations to 9 days off for Domestic and 10 days for internacional flights.
I've been thing to apply to EK or Ethihad, but I read some coments here about middle East companys and i am a little worry about career progress and the company's support, like medical, school, house and any other things.
Any comemt guys?

[sluggums]

Sorry, can't help, nothing on Pprune regarding the ME carriers. :ugh:

[You rock]

AGR 98

Firstly welcome too the Middle East forum.

Secondly please take no notice what so ever of Harry the cod.

Thirdly as I see it if you can write in English too that standard as you did. Clearly your English isn't really a problem. You would fit in just fine.

Harry are you that difficult too fly with as well. Give the kid a break. Lighten up




Hell
Iam from Briazil. i've bem flying in a Major Airline since 2008. Here we are used to Fly from 65 to 85 hours/ month, with 8 days off, this is for Domestic flights.
This is normal here, right now they change the regulations to 9 days off for Domestic and 10 days for internacional flights.
I've been thing to apply to EK or Ethihad, but I read some coments here about middle East companys and i am a little worry about career progress and the company's support, like medical, school, house and any other things.
Any comemt guys?

[B737SFP]

Hi AGR98...

Brazilian here too, but as I believe all posts here in this forum must be in english, I'll stick to it.

Recently I had to turn down an Offer in one of the big 3 in the ME. I can tell you that I don't regret about my choice so far.

First of all, take a plane and go there to know the place ! There's no free lunch I can tell you upfront. Things here in Brazil are really going south, but this is our country and even with some disagreeing from my point of view, we have rights here, not to say that this is the place where our family and friends are.

You gotta agree that there were some recent changes in our regulations for the better (You probably have read the last collective agreement between pilots and companies, right ?) and we're a few miles of changing our professional law, which will definitely improve our quality of life and reduce the fatigue.

I know that the money is getting shorter and shorter, that the upscaling violence and countless political scandals are getting on our nerves and everything else, but, for me, this wasn't enough for making this move.

REMEMBER: for us here, in brazil, this is kind of a path without return. I don't know your position, but if you're a FO, and decide to go back, you will struggle to become a captain here one day after losing your number on the list. If you're a captain, you know pretty well that you better forget about flying in one of the major companies in that seat again. Things change and have changed, that's right, but I don't see any great movement in the foreseeable future that would create a different scenario. One thing is to leave jobless, and another completely different thing is to quit your job here and move elsewhere.

For me, knowing that I would have to stay abroad for the next 25 yrs or so was really tough. I hated to say no for such a great opportunity in my career, but this was a personal choice. I know I'll never be the professional that I would if I had chosen to go to the ME, but life is made of choices right ? I did mine for the next few years.

One thing else: don't think only about the good salaries paid in the ME. Many of the guys here on pprune say that they can't save all that much. You will earn big money, but you also will have to spend some good money to make your life worth there.

By the way, I'm not in the mood to look over this text for mistakes, so, please, excuse any language errors. If a coffee here in Guarulhos would pay for them, it's on me, ok ?

All the best...

[AGR98]

Very Helpfull.
The problem here is the future of my Family. The violence is horrible we are always worried.
But you are right, the law is about to chance, We can espect a better future.
I really don't know what to do, that's one of the reasons i am on this forum.
Your statment was excellent.
Best regards



Hi AGR98...

Brazilian here too, but as I believe all posts here in this forum must be in english, I'll stick to it.

Recently I had to turn down an Offer in one of the big 3 in the ME. I can tell you that I don't regret about my choice so far.

First of all, take a plane and go there to know the place ! There's no free lunch I can tell you upfront. Things here in Brazil are really going south, but this is our country and even with some disagreeing from my point of view, we have rights here, not to say that this is the place where our family and friends are.

You gotta agree that there were some recent changes in our regulations for the better (You probably have read the last collective agreement between pilots and companies, right ?) and we're a few miles of changing our professional law, which will definitely improve our quality of life and reduce the fatigue.

I know that the money is getting shorter and shorter, that the upscaling violence and countless political scandals are getting on our nerves and everything else, but, for me, this wasn't enough for making this move.

REMEMBER: for us here, in brazil, this is kind of a path without return. I don't know your position, but if you're a FO, and decide to go back, you will struggle to become a captain here one day after losing your number on the list. If you're a captain, you know pretty well that you better forget about flying in one of the major companies in that seat again. Things change and have changed, that's right, but I don't see any great movement in the foreseeable future that would create a different scenario. One thing is to leave jobless, and another completely different thing is to quit your job here and move elsewhere.

For me, knowing that I would have to stay abroad for the next 25 yrs or so was really tough. I hated to say no for such a great opportunity in my career, but this was a personal choice. I know I'll never be the professional that I would if I had chosen to go to the ME, but life is made of choices right ? I did mine for the next few years.

One thing else: don't think only about the good salaries paid in the ME. Many of the guys here on pprune say that they can't save all that much. You will earn big money, but you also will have to spend some good money to make your life worth there.

By the way, I'm not in the mood to look over this text for mistakes, so, please, excuse any language errors. If a coffee here in Guarulhos would pay for them, it's on me, ok ?

All the best...

[burnable gomi]

AGR,

Are you a captain or FO? There are other (better?) options besides the middle east.

[AGR98]

I am A320 FO.


AGR,

Are you a captain or FO? There are other (better?) options besides the middle east.

[wanabee777]

One thing about Dubai, you can walk anywhere at all hours of the day and night and never have to worry about street crime.

You certainly can't do that here in Miami or Fort Lauderdale!!:{

If Brazil is worse, I can sure sympathize with you guys.

BTW, my friends laugh at my English. It's because I was brought up in SE Ohio and have a dialect which is far far removed from the King's English.

[B737SFP]

It's much, much worse.

I have many friends who "would kill" for a chance of living in Fort Lauderdale... Actually this is what many dream of after retiring, buying a house in Florida and never go any further south of the Keys.

True story.

[Schnowzer]

Wannabe, have you tried walking in summer? You might not get shot but you'll probably die of thirst on the way.

[wanabee777]

From the air-conditioned hotel, I take an air-conditioned taxi to an air-conditioned mall and go skiing.:D

Reverse order to get back.

Kind of the same routine in Ft Lauderdale but without the skiing option.

[harry the cod]

Moderator

I'm curious to know why you felt it necessary to remove my post? The point that a certain standard of English is required to pass the EK selection is a valid one, as was my reference to a specific Country being excluded from the recruitment process for a limited time due to language difficulties during training with a commensurate higher fail rate. That's all fact, not opinion.

I accept that written English grammar, spelling and punctuation can be very different to spoken competency, but ultimately no matter how good a pilot you are, if you can't communicate with your mate next to you, you might as well forget it.

Last time I went to work, it was a multi crew operation, not single crew!

Harry

[Nikita81]

His English is, in fact, fine, with few typo errors.

Anyway, he asked the question about the company, not about his language competencies, so it's just disrespectful, offensive and arrogant to give him the lecture about his knowledge of English.

You always speak with people in that manner, Harry. I am glad your post is deleted.

[Captain Partzee]

"I accept that written English grammar, spelling and punctuation can be very different to spoken competency, but ultimately no matter how good a pilot you are, if you can't communicate with your mate next to you, you might as well forget it."

Pathetic! :mad:

[esignnfly]

I think everyone on here understood what the OP was saying, even though it wasn't completely grammatically correct. It was clear enough to me, and if he were sitting next to me in the cockpit the way he wrote it, I would have no problems with it at all. As you well know, there are controllers all over the world who are WAY worse at English than this guy. Give him a break! His "ICAO" English is fine.

[harry the cod]

Nikita81

It's a shame that the original post was removed as if you'd taken the time to actually read it properly, you might have seen that it was not addressed directly to AGR98 at all. It was a response to another poster defending a comment on the quality of English used in a post. Again, ignorance on your part for jumping in on the attack without obtaining the facts first!

esignfly

This guy isn't applying for a job as an ATC controller. He's applying to an Airline that requires a minimum standard of English.

Captain Partzee

Pathetic? Maybe, but having seen the devastating effects that a failure can have on an individual, having brought over his family, sold their house, left his job and removed their children from school, all because his communication let him down, then so be it. And by the way, people have to be able to read and write it too. The tech log, Captain's Special Report, Voyage Report and every other report is completed in English, not Portuguese!

Harry

[Nikita81]

I've read your post and I left a comment (also deleted). Why do you insist on this? All of our comments were deleted, it's just not welcoming and it's really offensive to discuss someone's language skills, especially when many of us are not native speakers. We have to be ashamed for not speaking English as well as native speakers do? Of course we are going to make a mistake here and there, the important thing is that native speakers can understand us. It's not the first time that people here mock on someone's English language skills.

[wanabee777]

I, at times, have great difficulty understanding London Control or Gatwick Approach. I wish they would speak English.:*

This is from a U.S. guy, raised in Ohio and schooled at Dayton, the birthplace of Aviation.

I'm sure the above said controllers have equal difficulty understanding me.

For that matter, I can't understand either Bostonian's or New Yorker's if they speak too fast.

Kennedy tower is the worst!! They speak faster than I can think.

[Captain Partzee]

"Pathetic? Maybe, but having seen the devastating effects that a failure can have on an individual, having brought over his family, sold their house, left his job and removed their children from school, all because his communication let him down, then so be it. And by the way, people have to be able to read and write it too. The tech log, Captain's Special Report, Voyage Report and every other report is completed in English, not Portuguese!"

Again: PATHETIC! :mad:

[BYMONEK]

Quite interesting that so many are getting their knickers in a twist over this. Correct me if I'm wrong but anyone wishing to join EK needs to speak English to an acceptable standard, right? We're not tested on reading and writing but often the two are linked. Either way, let the recruiters decide what constitutes acceptable skill levels during their interview over the phone. The regulator can then decide what grade to give those individuals, not us.

Either way, effective communications rely on a clear understanding of the spoken language, whatever that may be. Whether we like it or not, English is the one chosen for this career! Those that think it's not that important as long as we 'can muddle through a basic understanding' have obviously not spent time in a multicultural environment, especially one such as Dubai. Shop assistants, taxi drivers, waitress and bank clerks. Yes, they all speak English.......

Many, many aviation accidents have been caused by poor communications. If it means Raski, that someone corrects you because they don't understand, then so be it. Rather clarify and correct than make assumptions because you weren't clear!

[wanabee777]

English has become the de facto standard language for those plying the trade of the world's oldest profession.

Go figure...

[The Outlaw]

Just pronounce it "YAN-KEE" and not "JANKY" so we all don't sound like a bunch of Jankers on the radio.

[richard III]

Dear AGR:
Nothing wrong with the ME, if you are aware that it is not your country, not your culture and are willing to accept it. Place is safe , clean, the airlines you are considering solid and career possibilities are good.
Like everywhere you will find bitter people that will hijack your thread over some either moral, language or race supremacy issue.... do not be bothered. As said before, just apply and come and make your own assessment of the situation. At the moment I dare say that the best package is being offered by QR and they rather have a well balanced management and crew nationality mixture. Problem is, Doha is not the best place to live, but then again nobody comes to work in the ME for the lifestyle, right? Then the next best package is EK and Dubai is the better city to live in, but you might run into the white supremacist bunch you've just met, that will segregate you for your accent, as if some of them were easy to understand. And the other Airline has a good work environment but the package has not kept up with the rise in cost of living .
Hope it helps.

[The Outlaw]

Richard,

Those are pretty strong words and offensive at that. Your connotation and use of wording suggests that the "whites" here wear "Glory suits' and burn crosses, or perhaps you mean that they are better represented by the more gentle NAZI party?

I know a hell of a lot of pilots here who are not white who demand the same standards of RT, what would you call them?

Shame really, your post has good points but they are lost in a sea of ignorance.

Nothing more has been said here than "Strive for and use English proficiency". Perhaps you are unaware but the internationally accepted language in aviation is ENGLISH. Its was also recognized by the worlds governing bodies that language proficiency was a global issue and needed to be dealt with hence the introduction of english language proficiency testing in aviation.

There have been many lives lost in aviation attributed directly to poor radio telephony and understanding of English.

In this business, we play for keeps, and nothing less is acceptable. Those who have ventured outside of the USA, Canada and the UK only know how important this is, don't dilute the issue with such a ridiculous statement

[richard III]

Outlaw:
I stand corrected and I do apologise,you are absolutely right, just tired of the "intellectual bullies" that hijack honest threads.....
Just look how many proper answers the this guy got, he didn't post to have his english evaluated....
But once again, apologies... should not have generalised..
Cheers mate

[Iznogood]

By using the word "might", in my understanding of a non native speaker (and level 4), richard has stated about a possibility or an eventuality.

And yes, "the internationally accepted language in aviation in (or is) ENGLISH." :-)

[The Outlaw]

Good for you iznogood...good for you!

[wanabee777]

By the turn of the century, Spanish may be the predominant language in America.

There is no "official" language at the Federal level.

[AGR98]

Very Helpfull Richard
Thanks

[Nikita81]

Very Helpfull Richard
Thanks

Richard just said what you wanted to hear.

Ask him what "Nothing wrong with the ME, if you are aware that it is not your country, not your culture and are willing to accept it." means.

And then ask him what "And the other Airline has a good work environment" means.

[notapilot15]

I thought ICAO gave up on English proficiency and moved on to CPDLC.

[R8TED THRUST]

"I thought ICAO gave up on English proficiency and moved on to CPDLC."

Because one does not need to read English to understand the clearance?

[The Outlaw]

notapilot15

Your handle says it all. :)

The english language is still used on aerodrome ground, tower as well as most arrival, departure and en-route ATC frequencies.

There are very few areas in the world that actually use CPDLC albeit it is increasing very slowly.

Therefore it is just as important now (if not more) than it ever was for proper use and discipline of RT and comprehension of English as applied to aviation.

[donpizmeov]

Today is the day humour died.

[The Outlaw]

Richard,

I apologize if I came across as a little curt.

I normally do not side much with the company given their treatment of the rank and file, rostering practices etc. I am however in full agreement of the way they filter candidates based on their lack of understanding of English and how it applies to aviation. For the most part I find it is pretty decent but there are some occasions where some of our guys and girls (of ANY color or background) have an abhorrent disregard for RT standards.

The controller in Iran will be unsure why the American flight is climbing to "three-five-ohh"...what does that mean? Is he climbing in 35 minutes? What is his current level? Maybe it was his airspeed? It makes the controller unsure and puts doubt in the whole exchange. Might work in North America but not here.

When I first arrived here too many years ago, I was called out on my RT which pissed me off a little at first. As I gained more experience with the route network I realized that the "old Aussie" was actually correct and so made it my mission to do it correctly. Think of flying to Moscow with CB's all around, complicated altimetry procedures and adding some poor RT to really crank up the workload.

Much like the SOP's, if you learn it correctly the first time, there is no fear when the 6 month check comes around.

[mmorel]

iranian controllers are way more talented than any other countries

[fatbus]

I needed a good laugh!

[wanabee777]

In all my years flying to/from DXB, and can't recall any problems communicating with Iranian controllers.

In fact, they were very professional.

[notapilot15]

The Outlaw

The English used in aviation communications is far simple than language cops on forums expect.

OP may be on a mobile device with auto correct off (or) using a speech to text converter software (or) using a language translator (very unlikely). ATCs deal with crew from all over the world and I presume they are professional and very considerate to all.

Now a days, heavy mx is done by folks who don't know how to read/write English. That should be a major concern than improper spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, too many/few articles in a para ... in a forum post.

[jack schidt]

The problem with doubt is that the result can be for better or worse. There is much truth said on the ME forums about terms and conditions when filtering through the drivel.

My suggestion to anyone considering the move. If you really cannot stand it any longer in your home country for either work or political reasons then come. You have no idea how difficult it will be to leave once here when your family are stable with the kids in school etc.

The jets are lovely and BIG and shiny, the guys are generally a nice bunch of people to work with BUT, you can only take so much of the hassles, disrespect, annoyances etc etc. There will come a time when you wish to return to the life you left no matter what you think of it right now. You will have difficulties when that time comes to move home due to commitments. I can tell you now, it is a lot easier to get in than it is to get out. Make very sure you are making the right decision and please understand that the sand is definitely not a greener option than grass, even with cow 'sheet' on the grass along the way.

The salary might seem good but food prices in UAE are several times more expensive than most western countries.

Jack

Testing ICAO English there with the good aviation term 'drivel' I hope its meaning is not lost in the reading.

[wanabee777]

Ref food prices in DXB.

Don't know about groceries, but as far as restaurants go, I found that you could eat pretty reasonably if you went to a restaurant which the the local expats' frequented.

By "expats" I mean cab drivers, construction workers, hotel workers etc.

Restaurants geared for tourists could be very expensive.

[fatbus]

Good post Jack, totally agree.

[White Knight]

Ah yeah Wannabe.. Nothing like getting greasy fingers from dipping into the Masala! All while squatting too...

[wanabee777]

:ok: White Knight. Except, at my age, I knew better than to try squatting!:)

[captainsmiffy]

11 nov, quote "Today is the day humour died." Donpizmeoff.

Hey, Don. Can you put a catchy tune and a few more words to that....?!! I think that we could be on to something. You've even got (partly) the right name....

[captainsmiffy]

Ooops.....donpizmeov....not 'off'!! Sorry!

[donpizmeov]

I knew I should have kept the chevy smiffy

[captainsmiffy]

....the levee was probably dry anyway.....