Military Services Rejection of Commonsense!

[SASless]

When I was in the Mob it was a Sin not to have your Jacket Zipper done right up to the top....or to step foot on any Grass other than the Parade Field during a Unit Pass in Review or similar activity....and heaven forbid One were to be caught without your Headgear properly set upon your Noggin.

But, it seems the new modern American military has gone completely off its collective Rocker over the Belt, Reflective.

Reflective belt's iconic status - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-the-much-hated-reflective-belt-became-the-war-on-terrors-iconic-piece-of-us-military-equipment-2015-10?ref=yfp)

[Pozidrive]

That's the US approach, couldn't happen here.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Unfortunately Pozi, it did permeate to us. Though usually tucked discretely into a pocket until such officiousness appears that it is quickly slipped on.... and then off again.

[PapaDolmio]

Ah, the famous invincibility belt of AUD fame, guaranteed to remove any road sense from anyone.
Could be worse though. Once visited a US Army base in Macedonia where vehicles driving round base required a 'ground guide' walking in front of the vehicle down the middle of the road (I guess because of AFV'S on base). Thinking about it, the ground guide didn't have to wear a reflective belt. I suppose as it was usually the junior non - driving passenger in the vehicle he was probably considered expendable. Mind you, it did limit the speeding somewhat.

[Wander00]

Surprised they don't call it a "shoot me here" belt!

[Lonewolf_50]

A few years ago I got to wear one of these little belts any and everywhere between sunset and sunrise on an Air Force Base, where a "shirt" wandered about gleefully giving people citations/walking tickets for not having one on their person.

Waste of a good NCO's time, or, good use for a :mad:'s time ... depended on the "shirt" in question.

I brought it home, as I had begun to jog in the evening with it wearing it like a sash. I used a permanent marker to inscribe "Mr Backhair 200x" on it as though I had won a beauty pageant for being hirsute.

Definitely a "shoot me" belt should a terrorist have arrived on the base after dark ... none of the host nation folks wore them, and I think they thought we were daft.

[Pontius Navigator]

In Kef, 4 decades ago all the locals (US) wore hi viz strips on their parkas, quite sensible given it used to go sort of grey around lunch time before night set in again.

[NutLoose]

We all had one on the line at Brize circa 1985.
How reflective they were was debatable after several washes and a good covering of Skydrol...Engine oil etc, I used to loop mine through my shoulder tab and under the arm on my overalls as the supposed "one size fits all" was also a myth unless you were a stunted anorexic dwarf, especially after a good wash to try to get it clean..

[Herod]

There is a good argument against the hi-vis jacket that is mandatory at most civil airfields. In the last ten years of so, almost all accidents on the ramp have happened to someone wearing said jacket. Ergo, the jacket is dangerous. You can prove almost anything by statistics.

[SASless]

Lone....I am sure lots of folks have thought you Daft at one time or another!:E

[iRaven]

Latest Junior Service madness on this scale is the 'Bikesafe' course. I think we have had something like half a dozen fatalities of our people on motorbikes in as many years. So the Service is funding free Bikesafe courses for all - regardless of whether you ride a "kidney donor's" plastic rocket or a Harley that shakes itself to bits at 60mph+. Also it doesn't matter whether you have just passed your bike licence, never had an accident in 30 years of biking or only ride 3 days a year when the weather is perfect. I'm even hearing that some Stn Cdrs are mandating it? On what basis?

I understand that the Senior Leadership Team decided that something must be done and so Bikesafe was the answer. Let's see if this stops you getting knocked off by the idiots on the road, come off due to the poor condition of some roads or purely bad luck.

iRaven :*

[Lonewolf_50]

Lone....I am sure lots of folks have thought you Daft at one time or another!:E Yep, a transnational consensus on that one. :}

[Krystal n chips]

" There is a good argument against the hi-vis jacket that is mandatory at most civil airfields. In the last ten years of so, almost all accidents on the ramp have happened to someone wearing said jacket. Ergo, the jacket is dangerous. You can prove almost anything by statistics "

in one sense, you are correct in that, when they were first introduced, they were ideal, almost essential in fact, based on the "see and be seen" principle.

However, the item has now become ubiquitous across all walks of life and therein lies the problem. Because of this ubiquity, the effect of gaining attention has been lost. Now, people just see them as another item of clothing and thus we are back to square one and that means the ramp is becoming the dangerous working area it once was.

Before the "it was ok in my day blah, blah" brigade start, up to a point the military have a certain advantage in that most people working / operating on a ramp have been trained extensively as to the hazards....not so on a civilian airfield.

As for bikes, same principle "see and be seen"....most of us would agree on this. However, a new development here and one that will come as no surprise to the training world.

Getting dressed up in various "attention seeking" clothing has now been examined in more detail and the conclusions are that it's the equivalent of camouflage in that the image of the rider is in fact "broken up"...enter....all black clothing.....now where have you all seen that introduced into the training world and for one very good reason ?

The other development is one that won't go down well with many.....pink is the new "hi viz" colour, rather than dayglo.....this may take a bit of time to be accepted however.

[BEagle]

I was driving on the northern disused taxiway road on my way to the RW08 threshold lights one sunny day, when a couple of DOE (or whatever the MoW/MPBW called itself then) numpties in their vehicle pulled out from a side road in front of me. I could see that both were wearing those stupid yellow jackets which were causing glare and reflection on the car windscreen.....

The wretched things cause more trouble than they're worth. Although it amused me to see one with the logo "I'm wearing this to protect someone else's ar$e".

The Stn Cdr asked one pilot why he was wearing a Virgin Atlantic logo'd hi-viz tabard and wasn't terribly happy with the reply "Getting ready for my next job, sir!". But he did go to Virgin, which is more than the Stn Cdr did.

[Teamchief]

Having worn Hi Vis on many ASP's over the years all it seems to have achieved is to turn me into a keen amateur entomologist as all of the little (and not so little) insect critters seem to think I am a mobile sunflower!!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

I liked the bit in one of Michael Portillo's railway journey programmes when he was about to climb into the cab of a freight loco while wearing one of his trademark brightly coloured jackets (a vile lime green one). The driver handed him a high-vis vest and said "Sorry, but I'm going to have to reduce your visibility!"

[Haart]

On a December deployment to Norway (sunset at about 1430) I noted that all the Norgies wore reflective bike bands on their ankles after dark. Seemed to have the same effect without fetishising the day glo belt.

[ericferret]

Currently North Sea helicopter crews are wearing bright orange emmersion suits with reflective strips. To go out to the aircraft they have to wear a high viz. No hope whatsoever for the survival of the human race with this level of idiocy.

[Ogre]

Eric

I think you'll find the orange immersion suits are that colour so they are visible in the sea, but I agree with you viz a viz the fluoro jackets.

There will be a rule somewhere that says they have to be worn (because we have to be seen to be doing everything reasonably practicable to protect personnel, including personal protective equipment such as these) without anyone with more than one brain cell doing an assessment on what the actual hazard is and the best way to mitigate it.

As has been mentioned before, now we all have to wear them they lose their effectiveness. What you need to do is come up with new and constructive methods to make sure you are seen, and change them over regularly so that they don't get tired and worn out. The old hunter instinct means that your eye are attracted to movement (such as the prey running away from you) but when you are the one moving in a vehicle you don't get the same effect

[gr4techie]

The biggest flaw with high viz is it's not high viz at night. The colour makes no difference.
But what about the reflective strips you cry... These relflective strips are only good if they're in your headlights. If you're sat at a T-junction you won't see someone passing perpendicular as they wont be illuminated by your forward facing headlights.
Only if a person has lights, are they effectively visible at night.
However in my opinion, you'll be better teaching people to look where they're going, all the high viz in the world won't save you if the other motorist isn't looking in the first place, or playing with his mobile phone while driving.
I've also heard the theory we have became immune to high viz yellow, last year I saw a cyclist wear orange, he stood out a mile as it was so different.

[ShyTorque]

My son attended a car race track marshals' course a couple of years ago. He was told that marshals are no longer allowed to wear yellow hi viz because it doesn't stand out well enough against other yellow signals. Their jackets are now orange. Same on the railways, I believe.

I occasionally land at an airfield where they are so anal about this yellow hi viz stuff that they accost you about it while you're still sitting in the aircraft. Yet they will approach a helicopter without waiting for an "OK to approach" signal from the pilot. Ignorant muppets.

[ShotOne]

Even at the height of every recent military conflict, most Western armed forces including those of the USA have lost far more personnel to traffic accidents than combat. Is this really a "rejection of commonsense"?

[rigpiggy]

years back got anasty email telling us all to wear hv vests to avoid being run over by gse. the very next day a big tug drove into our crew van, crushed it a good 1/3 the way thru. it was painted white with a large orange yellow and gray reflective hiviz scheme. believe everybody's out to kill you, and keep your head on a swivel...... works also for driving, and biking.

[SASless]

I guess there could be a Safety Case made for returning to Horses in lieu of motorized vehicles.

[Wander00]

Horses, nah, far too dangerous - working at height, they bite, kick and are most unhygienic at the after end

[Stanwell]

Quite right, Wander00.
Also, in this "can't be too careful" age, we should also consider banning weapons above .177 (air rifle) calibre because someone might get shot.
Slingshots are too dangerous (remember Goliath) and, besides, you've gotta give the chaps something to drill with - broom-handles just don't cut it.

Where's this silliness going to end?
Reveille at 1600hrs and Lights Out at 1900hrs? (Rotating-beacon headwear will be worn).

[SASless]

Wander....sounds like most Nav's I know.

[FireAxe]

Use to be a browser driver and one winter's night was driving around has site with no lights other than the bowsers and nearly ran techie over who was walking across taxiway in green coveralls. They used to put a high viz belt through their pockets and round the rear of their waist. Not enough, he was nearly dead. Hi viz for anything other than operations and exercise.