10 Bear Badge

[insty66]

According to the Stn Cdr at RAF Lossiemouth the last time a "10 Bear Badge" was awarded was over 25 years ago.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR0a7QiUwAAqK7d.jpg:large

The time lapse doesn't surprise me but I would have expected 10 to be a reasonably low number for crews on QRA throughout the Cold War.

Or is this just another PR thing to keep the work of the RAF in the eye during SDSR season? (Cynic mode not used)

[Homelover]

The Lossiemouth stash has a short memory. In 2007 when the Ruskies started their shananigans in earnest, several Leeming Wg F3 mates earned 10 bear badges in the space of a few weeks. There was also a famous pic of the first typhoon intercept of a Bear, taken from the 6th F3 to Shadow that day, before they eventually managed to get a Typhoon airborne. :D:D

[BEagle]

On the FunBus, we didn't bother with mere '10' Bear ties / badges and were negotiating for '25' Bear ties / badges when Saxa gave up after the Wall came down......

Rules were 'No photo, no claim' - and that meant a photo from close echelon!

[Tankertrashnav]

Blimey, first time I've even heard of these. Don't think they existed when Victor K1s were taking F4s up North of Shetland on Bear hunts.

On the basis that they've only recently authorised the Berlin Airlift clasp for the GSM, what do you think my chances are for a retrospective claim for one of these? ;)

[Onceapilot]

Ooooo, a badge.:rolleyes:

OAP

[Courtney Mil]

One of these, TTN. Sure you've never seen one?

http://www.tornadof3.com/uploads/2/8/3/9/2839580/8557972_orig.jpg

I like the Typhoon guys' version of it - nicely added to the aircraft patch - but a shame in a way to discard the original and very long standing Ten Bear Club.

Yes, I too recall some awards since 1990.

[Lima Juliet]

Those Typhoon pilots are standing awfully close together; are we sure they're not Jag mates?

All together, now...

If I was a Jag mate, da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da
All day long I'd stick it up my....
...if I was a Jaguar man

:E

[Pontius Navigator]

How many of you steely eyed killers got a May?

[Mach Two]

I take it you have, PN? Nice one.

[Tankertrashnav]

One of these, TTN. Sure you've never seen one?


Nope. We had One Ton Budgie badges (still got mine somewhere) but I dont think we had those ones pre 1977.

(Saw a couple of Badgers once, P-N, but as they flashed past us on a reciprocal heading I dont suppose that counts!)

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, ah, but rare.

Mach, yes.

Mind you, in about 86-87 the Bear were grounded and they sent May down.

One of our crews took photos as he passed. The montage on my not cell wall was 5 feet long.

[PICKS135]

According to the book
Northern "Q": The History of the Royal Air Force Leuchars by Ian Smith Watson. [aka Finningley Lad]
The original 10 Bear badge was designed by one of 43 [F] Sqn F-4 Navs wives [Budgie Burgess]. Along with a 10 bear certificate.

[Four Types]

Being a Southern Q type I didn't make 10. But had a varied bag of sorts. 2 x BADGERS whilst in Cyprus (H and a K). 1 x BEAR D and 2 x MAY on one sortie north of the wall. Also I count 1 x BEAR that I escorted into Fairford for the air show.

[wiggy]

How many of you steely eyed killers got a May?

Err...Me for one....:ok:

But not off 'Q'.... Air to Air off Akrotiri suddenly became a quick dash round the west of Cyprus to pick up our "friend", presumably en-route from Libya to Syria...

BTW Ivan/Sergi/Yuri..or whoever, if you're reading this, I'm still waiting for those copies of the pictures you took :ooh:

[Ali Qadoo]

How many of you steely eyed killers got a May?

Just like Wiggy, I got one off Cyprus while on APC. The difference was, that day we were flying pax various on jollies and I happened to have a UAS cadet in the boot. Despite trying to give him the world's fastest convex on how to work the radar, he never managed to get it into the right mode (probably my duff instructional technique again).

As was often the case round those parts, the viz wasn't great and I did some serious BS-ing to convince the Olympus controller that we had a working radar despite the fact I couldn't see the target at 5NM! When we did draw alongside, the bugger tried the slow down, descend and turn gently towards trick to try and put us into the oggin.

So all-in-all, a 'somewhat busy trip' and the worst of it all was that after we'd landed, the ungrateful little sod of a UAS cadet made it pretty clear that he was completely underwhelmed by the whole episode!

[handleturning]

Pointless post

[Pontius Navigator]

Ali Q, in our case it was low level well north of Saxa and we spotted this 3-ship and closed for pics. One of the three going to opposite direction to the other two tried to out run the mighty Hunter accelerating to 300 kts.

The frightening thing, he didn't check and rolled into us at 400 feet. He was as surprised as we were. Fortunately he pushed and we pulled.

[Midland 331]

>In 2007 when the Ruskies started their shananigans in earnest, several Leeming Wg F3 mates earned 10 bear badges in the space of a few weeks.

Some of us folks in Teesside experienced "the sound of freedom" at 0300...

The fact that the QRA lads were obviously in a hurry, I thought Something Very Serious was happening.

[Lonewolf_50]

How many of you steely eyed killers got a May?
I got a few intercepts on one in a helicopter ... I kid you not. (No, we were not able to join up, obviously).

He was coming in for a low pass, and our ship's radar controller started vectoring us for intercepts. We blazed along at all of the 135 knots we could get the machine to offer, were thankfully only in forward quarter engagements. The May turned away three times, though maybe not because of us. On the fourth intercept, the TAO (LCDR who was running CIC) got wind of what the controller was doing and called "knock it off." (Somewhere in the Med, 1984.) The two of us, upon RTB, got a talking to by our OIC for having too much fun. (He thought it was hilarious, but since the captain had been somewhat annoyed at the game we were playing, he told our OIC to give us a talking to. He did. He was amused so we got both coffee and doughnuts during that conversation).

[MSOCS]

Brilliant. Just like having a sewing badge in the Guides.

[Wensleydale]

One wonders if the red star and portcullis tie is still in existence?

[orca]

What has the American done to deserve being the meat in a crab sandwich?;)

[Courtney Mil]

Brilliant. Just like having a sewing badge in the Guides.

Exactly like that, MSOCS, only easier. Oh, or maybe that was a scoff? Why? It's just a UK QRA thing. Bet you've got an AV8 badge.

[BEagle]

Is there any such thing as a Guide badge for sewing: https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/guides/gfibadge/badges/index.html ? I don't see one listed.

Whereas there certainly is a 10 Bear badge.

My final score was 28 x Bear plus 2 x Fulcrum - I don't count the Bear 'H' we once encountered in mid-Atlantic.....

Are 10 Bear ties still available?

[AirtrackIdentFEnter]

Not a fly boy myself but have supported or been the Master Controller for many QRA scrambles in UK, Falklands and Norway since 1985. My best was, whilst on a tour in northern Norway, MCing the intercepts of 10 Ruskies on an ADEX in the very North Norwegian Sea with 1 F16 which included a super quick turn around at Banak then north again to get the Mainstay on it's way in. I also have the Argie 707 from darn south:)

[minigundiplomat]

So you shot them with a camera........

[downsizer]

I think it's good. A rare bit of morale these days.

[Union Jack]

Is there any such thing as a Guide badge for sewing: https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/guide...ges/index.html ? I don't see one listed. - BEagle

I can hardly believe that I actually looked at the link, but the "Outdoor Pursuits" badge may be more appropriate.....:hmm:

Jack

[Lima Juliet]

On the subject of the MAY...

I remember in the South Atlantic a crew (both sadly no longer with us due to seperate CFIT accidents) excitedly ID'd a bogey off of the Falklands as "It's a COOT, no, no, it's a MAY..". Only to be told that the 'locals' had an Electra that they used for snooping about in as briefed in the standard intel pack up for the local theatre of ops brief. Oh, how we laughed at them in the bar that evening!

LJ

[Fortissimo]

For MSOCS, MGD and others persisting down the guides badge route, it is worth remembering that for many years the QRA task could only be discharged with significant risk to the crews. The WIWOL mates and Leuchars F4s operated without the benefit of an INS or an HF radio, often outside radar cover, and at a range where SAR was unlikely to find you, never mind reach you before hypothermia set in (assuming the sea state let you get in the dinghy in the first place). So a simple fire or double PC failure was likely to prove terminal. :) And as Ali Q pointed out, the other trick was to try to wipe you off into the sea on the inside of a descending turn. It was the no IN/HF combination that led to a Tremblers crew hitting a tanker 200nm from land, with the low fuel light on, and minus the tanks and missiles they had to jettison just to reach the tanker. Saved by a US AWACS, but it did generate a good song!

Apart from that, the most difficult bit was managing to stay awake on the way home after the 0200 no-notice launch.

[Self Loading Freight]

Why no HF? Seems a bit mean if you're going to be stooging about so far from home, and there's always the chance you'll spot something that may be of immediate interest to others.

[orca]

But the point is shipmate that it's a badge! You can award a badge for anything you like and - by and large - it'll mean a lot to you and your community and not that much beyond.

I'm forever grateful to what the boys and girls standing Q over the years have done...and at some point someone's decided that 10 Bears is worth recording. That's great - a line in the sand that you are either over, or not. You either wear the badge...or you don't.

I don't think there's any need to have a go at the chaps for having or producing it...as with every award from the 100m dash certificate at school sports day all the way to the VC...only the chaps who wear it know what they did, how it went and what it means.

I'm willing to bet a couple of people thinking ill of this have 'thousand hour' badges or similar in their possession...similar idea, surely? A milestone that some pass, some don't. Simple as that.

But in all seriousness - is the middle fellow American or not?

[Biggus]

Just a quick question...

If the badge is, by definition, for intercepting 10 Bears, why does it need the number 10 on it? The original, as shown by CM in post 6, had no such number.

Is this badge intended as part of a series, with the 20, 30, 40 Bear badges to follow in due course?

[Tankertrashnav]

We in this country have a tradition of awarding bars to medals, whereas the Soviets (and I assume the post Soviet Russians) awarded another medal, which is why Russian generals ended up looking like Christmas trees. For example, I've got a WW2 group to a Red Army sergeant which includes three Medals for Bravery, mounted in a row.

On that principle, do you think there are Russian Bear crewmen who have flying suits plastered with 10, 20 or 30 Tornado and Typhoon badges (and even some oldies with a few faded F4 badges)? ;)

Fortissimo - not sure what these guys would be doing out of touch with their tanker, equipped as it was with both HF and navigator(s)!

[Tengah Type]

Fortissimo #30 & TTN #3

Ref the Tremblers F4 in a spot of bother. We were the Tansor crew that rescued them. We had just finished refelling Q2 off the NW Irish coast, whilst shadowing a Bear, when we were asked by Benbecula if we could help a " Slow Gin " (USAF F4 from Iceland) that was short of fuel. We told them that we were unable to refuel USAF F4s as the systems were not compatible, but offered out services to assist if we were able. Asked to vector NW to assist, which we did.

It transpired that Q1, who was without Tanker support, had been shadowing another Bear and been briefed to stay to PLE and then divert to Keflavik. They had assumed that the Bear was en-route to Cuba, but it was actually heading for the Bay of Biscay. On leaving the Bear to go to Keflavik they found that they were a long way South of where they thought they were and had no chance or getting to Keflavik. Remember they had no INS.
They headed towards Stornoway with no hope of getting there either, but with the tailwind they would be nearer to land than if they went North.

After vectors from the USAF AWACS we met them with an RV D about 250nm West of Stornaway. They took 14,000lbs fuel, which IIRC is the total fuel contents of a (by now) clean F4.

I was called into Ops the next morning at 0200 to talk to the B of E, who gave me the story from the F4 end. Mrs TT was most impressed (not). Still waiting for the thank you letter.

Wensleydale #21 Still got my tie, don't know if they are still available.

[Ali Qadoo]

Following on from Fortissimo and TT's earlier posts - and apologies for a spot of thread/navigational drift - but not long afterwards, a 43 Sqn crew fell into a similar trap to the unfortunate Tremblers QRA crew. Well out of TACAN range and with only the hamster-driven air position indicator (on a good day it had a 50% chance of telling you correctly which hemisphere you were in) to rely on, the chaps began their RTB to Leuchars only to find upon turning south east that someone had pinched Scotland.

A PAN, quickly updated to MAYDAY later and our trusty crew, with only fumes in the tanks, landed in... ahem, Denmark (Karup, I think). Names of the guilty redacted to save embarrassment!

And just as a PS to TT's post, a clean F4 holds 13,200 lbs of fuel, so even allowing for the burn rate while tanking, taking on 14,000 lbs shows how close the Tremblers ac was to the hasn't-it-all-gone-quiet stage.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the explanations guys - all very hairy. Nothing to do with Bear hunting, but I remember taking a Bucc up to about 69N on something called Gambeson (Soviet ship watching, I think) and casting them off after a final top-up to continue their way North, as we turned South to RTB. I remember how lonely that singleton looked disappearing into the twilight surrounded by hundreds of miles of bugger all.

[MSOCS]

CM,

It wasn't so much a scoff than a bit of banter chap.

I don't have problems with badges. We've all got a load of various designs in our ego boxes I'm sure.

And yes, I do have an "AV8" badge. I don't have one for 10 hovers followed by a picture and a statement saying this is the first 10 hover badge someone's achieved in 25 years, but I think I'm onto something there. I'll see what the skipper says next week.

Just banter, signposted for clarity.

[Pontius Navigator]

No IN puts in to context one of our Q.

One F4, one Victor, one Shack, were positioned well north of Saxa on the boundary about 24 hours late.

Saxa retained control so I was delegated to watch only.

The F4 had a low contact well north that was a suspect vessel and were given permission to identify. They went down and found a Noggie Hooked. They then set off back to the tanker but still dark to Saxa.

Watching, I could see they were set to pass some 50 miles east of the tanker and opening. I asked if they were happy. The tanker had to relay and the F4 said "happy about what?"

The Victor replied, your position viz a viz me.

Bored F4, well where does he think you are? I called the vector followed by a request for more help.

Over the years we were incredibly lucky not to lose a Q aircraft.

[Courtney Mil]

To respond to a couple of posts.

SLF,

The Northern Q jets were FG1s, which were the Navy models - not all of them were ex-Navy, though. As such they didn't have things that didn't go well with ships in those days. So, no INAS, which needed to be pretty much stationary to align, no internal battery (maybe acid was too nasty for sailors), no HF (I don't know, but maybe the aircraft weren't supposed to go that far from the ship).

Joking aside, Leuchars ended up with the jets that did most of the QRA work, way out of range of land-based nav aids and comms, without a decent internal nav system and without the long-range radio. Just the way it happened, I suppose.

Biggus,

Yes, you are right. The picture there is the design of the Bear. The actual badge has a "10" in black in the middle of the bear's chest. There was never any intention to make any further badges in a series.

MSOCS,

Yes, I get that. Thanks.

AQ,

Yes, the API hamster wheel was bloody awful, especially as we all trained on a jet with the INAS. If you nurtured it and didn't go and do a lot of manoeuvring it would keep a reasonable PP. I think we've probably all had days when we were surprised by the way it could drift, but I believe that it could keep us in the ball park, as long as we looked after it. In the cases mentioned here, a little MDR may not have gone amiss. Maybe a discussion for early next month?

PN,

Yes, I think we were very lucky not to lose a Q jet in those days. For more reasons than just the nav kit.

[Ali Qadoo]

CM
Maybe a discussion for early next month?

Sadly not. Owing to the new job and my being a notorious lightweight, I'm not coming to the TDPU this year. :(

[BEagle]

When supporting Northern Q with the FunBus, it was normal to give the F-4 crew a position update after AAR. In those days we only had Carousel IV and Omega and the INS wasn't automatically updated by any external navigation system such as DME or GPS. So it was monitored carefully by the on-board food-powered universal navigation device.

INS gave position to a tenth of a degree; however, it has been known for the position to be passed to the F-4 with a spoof extra place of decimals....;)

Why on earth a decision wasn't made to move the FGR2 to Leuchars, I really don't know. The Lightning wouldn't have operated as far from land or a tanker as the FG1; I doubt whether operating miles from anywhere without comms or navaids would be acceptable these days.....:hmm:

[Tankertrashnav]

In those days we only had Carousel IV and Omega and the INS wasn't automatically updated ...

only had Carousel IV etc etc? We dreamt of Carousel IV (or we would have if it had been around then ;) )

Still we could usually get an NBS fix off the Shetlands or Iceland which was pretty well where all our Dragonfly* sorties took us.

(*Tansor to you young' uns!)

[Tengah Type]

TTN

Carousel was in civvy use when you were on Victor K1s. It only became available to the AAR Force after we bought the old BA VC10s and discovered that the buy included 50-60 Carousels. Some of the Victor K2s in the South Atlantic in 1982 had a Carousel fitted in the 6th seat position (Crew Chief seat). They had been removed from the VC10Ks before they arrived at Brize and were only refitted later.

Still there was always Astro to keep the Nav Rad/Petrol Pump Attendant awake and amused.:E

[BEagle]

Certainly the V-force astro skills were, in the main, vastly superior to those of certain VC10K navigators....

Chaps such as Tengah Type could plot the aircraft's position within half a heartbeat to a very high degree of accuracy at any time of day or night. Whereas others, shall we say, didn't have quite the same level of 'TLAR' instinct and years of navigational witchcraft without the benefit of devices such as TACAN or Omega.

Mind you, it was said of 'Animal' that he'd use astro for taxying in the Tin Triangle, given half a chance!

Joking aside, I wonder whether there's anyone left in the RAF with the level of specialist navigation knowledge that was relatively commonplace 15 years ago.... GPS is great, but if it all goes tits-up at the wrong moment....:eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

Astro, as taught 25 years ago to FJ navs was that if it was morning the Sun was East and afternoon it were West. Between the two its direction changed 15 degrees every hour.

I think they were taught sunrise and sunset.

As for limited aids navigation, follow the shepherd or ask for radar steers. Anything more sophisticated was unnecessary as the jet didn't fly very far or very long.

Of course, 25 years later, most of those assumptions are wrong - fewer radars, longer endurance and flying in less hospitable climes.

[Courtney Mil]

So, why, when they didn't know where they were, didn't the pilot of the F-4 that had to ditch all that hardware tell his nav to get his sextant out?

[BEagle]

CM, you know very well, you little bugger!

When I first started instructing on the Bulldog, it had no navaids whatsoever. We didn't even have a transponder with which to elicit some assistance from whoever might be awake on the weekends we flew over the Berkshire Downs above 8/8ths... So we developed a sixth sense based on 'the wind is from that direction, I've been flying this way for this time, so I'm probably about here'....

I went through training before the -A models of the JP came into service. So developing a mental air picture was part of the skill set we had to learn - although the wonderful offset TACAN of the Gnat was the answer to a student's prayer during advanced training.

I queried the 'procedural' emphasis of civvy IR training with a mate who had become the CAA's Chief Examiner some years ago. Because I'd found that the Playstation Generation was quite good at flying published NDB/ILS procedures, but less so when flying diverse vectors to the localiser. He'd never thought of that; pilots of our generation and earlier had relied on radar-to-radar, rather than pilot-interpreted procedures, so were perhaps rather better at having a sixth sense about our whereabouts?

[Courtney Mil]

Fair cop, BEgs. I know. It's because the navs never bothered to bring their sextants with them.

[teeteringhead]

Drifting the thread (quite) a bit, but still on badges....

.... the Wessi in Norn Iron had a "10 000 000 Rotor Revs in NI" badge as a somewhat ironic take on FJ badges. :cool:

If my maths is correct, that equated to about 700 hours in theatre; quite a lot when even the Wessex could get from one side to the other in about 45 minutes ......!

[Tankertrashnav]

Still there was always Astro to keep the Nav Rad/Petrol Pump Attendant awake and amused.

It was a dark day when they removed the R88 camera from above the H2S screen on the Victor K1s. The rubber headrest on the camera was ideal if the petrol pump attendant, fatigued by his onerous tasks, needed to "rest his eyes" for a few minutes ;)

[Wwyvern]

HALYARD & BATTLE FLIGHT

Is there a badge for intercepting a Comet, a Vautour, several Canberras, a couple of F100s, a CF100 and a Valiant?

Up to mid-1960s, Hunter day fighter squadrons were deployed in rotation to Cyprus for training and to man “Battle Flight” during the hours of daylight. Most Battle Flight aircraft got airborne for practice interceptions controlled by Troodos Radar(?), but I remember being scrambled for real to check out an unidentified aircraft which turned out to be a BOAC Comet.

During that particular deployment, on a Hunter T7 PI flight, Troodos called for us to intercept a low-level real bogey heading for Cyprus from the south east. It turned out to be an Israeli Vautour, which did a 180 on being discovered. It was followed and seen off by our performing a barrel roll around it.

Was "Ex Halyard" the 1960s version of QRA? I was scrambled from cockpit readiness on only one occasion, to intercept an unidentified aircraft approaching the UK from the east and “intercepted” a Canberra some thousands of feet above.

The other interceptions were made during UK air defence exercises. On 1 Nov 61 two Hunter squadrons stopped doing interceptions and concentrated on ground attack on being assigned to 38 Group, Transport Command.

[Tengah Type]

CM # 41

As the FAA FG1s disembarked to Ark Royal pan at Leuchars it was probably easier to leave them there after change of ownership.
It was not just the FG1s who became AAR Dependent, several Lightnings could barely have made Sumbrugh without help.

BEagle # 46

Night Astro was always easier with you, without the sun glinting off your bonedome.:E

CM # 50

Bringing the sextant smacks of pre-flight planning. Not an AD strong point in my experience. One day at Goose Bay, after I had delivered the AAR Face to Face Brief for a trail to Eilson AFB in Alaska, the F3 Leader asked to borrow the 1 in 6 million scale map marked with big red and orange markings on it as a visual aid. This was so he could photocopy it so " we have got some idea of where we are going ". He also borrowed Eilson Approach Plates, to photocopy, " in case we need them ".
The Question of the day was why were we not planning to use Lynn Lake
( marked on the map with an anchor ) as a diversion airfield. Reply " Because it is a lake! ".

TTN # 52


" rest his eyes for a few minutes ". My Nav Rad could manage 5 to 6 hours on some of the Op Corporate sorties, using his " pillow ", which was the inflated silver liner from a wine box. :O

[sandozer]

Can anyone say how "good" the AN-ASN-39A was in operation? How about Present Position accuracy after say an hours flight.
I know in Auto it had inputs from the CADC, TAS Mag heading fom the CAC, and radar wind from the VSC. Max range of 1999 nautical miles.
Can remember from the navs on 43 that Present Position accuracy was the most requested attribute !

[sarn1e]

The Lightning wouldn't have operated as far from land or a tanker as the FG1

Err, that wouldn't be my experience from my (one and only) live Southern Q launch. I found it pretty intimidating being 600nm N of Leuchars on my lonesome at 250ft looking (unsuccessfully) for a Bear with the Victor relaying from FL370. And anyway, I don't think it's quite such a matter of how far from land or a tanker you are as it is how close you are to maximum range when you don't really know where you are...

At one point the Victor decided he'd hit PLE and offered to leave me to get home by myself...fat chance. Yes, I could have shut an engine down to help matters on the way home and stayed for another 15-20 mins, but I wasn't that desperate for a One Bear Badge!

Offset/AA TACAN, Violet Picture and an 80nm scope (albeit extended with second timebase returns) were not much to play with, navigation-wise, and I'm sure there are many more live Q-experienced WIWOLs who scared themselves witless back in the day.