Bu**ar off...and leave your watch!

[Four Types]

I have been retired from the RAF 2 and 1/2 years. I have been back to my last camp on several occasions as I was invited to attend beer calls for fellow comrades leaving bash. I normally have my name sent to the guardroom, pitch up get an 'Un-escorted pass' and walk down to the squadron. However, I returned once again last Thurs to be told I now need an escort! I informed said jobsworth that I had been retired a short while, I am on the system (Control Alt F9! whatever?) and I have not needed an escort before. Nope! I am now officially a potential terrorist, who cannot wipe his own ar*e without having to send for a Cpl (who invited me and had to leave his beer behind!) to walk me down.


Just short of 35 years service and all I get is a pension (nice one I admit) and a slap in the face. This is one of the prime reasons I am SOOOOOO! happy the Waddo Air Show has been binned! I cannot get on camp but come the magical weekend in July we opened the gates to Jihhady Jim and his band of cohorts one and all.


The Americans look after their Veterans, we could take a leaf out of their book!....


I am hoping to go back for a top table lunch soon...best I apply for a DV now then!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Four Types, you are not alone. Lady in P&P used to work for me. I was, as you say, on the system. Still needed to have my daughter come and escort me.
."
Similar at Waddo where I had been an occasional visitor for I don't know how long "Same car Sir?, wait for your escort back to quarters"

[kintyred]

Tricky one. Would you let all ex servicemen in unescorted? Some oik signs on for a few years then becomes radicalised after leaving.....and I'm sure you could think of other potential scenarios. At the famous Hants Heli Base (back in line AAC!) it was, until relatively recently, possible to walk onto the base from across the MQs outside the wire. The IRA missed a trick there I feel. I think those currently serving are entitled to good security, and if that inconveniences us retirees, well I won't be complaining.

[thing]

I'm a civvy with one of the 'five camp' passes for Lincolnshire. At one which shall remain nameless I still had to turf up at the guardroom to be issued with a temporary pass after showing them my official pass which is subject to positive vetting...

[Herod]

I have to agree with Kintyred. A few year ago, the airline I worked for had us stopping over in Aldergrove. I asked beforehand of OC xx sqn (one of my old squadrons) if I could visit. I got to the guardroom, and was kept there, under armed guard, while my details were checked, and then escorted to the sqn. Quite right too. I wouldn't have expected anything less.

[Pontius Navigator]

Herod, the other way round. I was at Norwich airport and one of the security men washed-Eng leader from, I think, 206. We chatted a while before the flight was called, then he searched me. As you say, quite right.

[Tankertrashnav]

At last years V Force reunion I was chatting to a chap I had known when serving who had retired as the station commander of a V force base (I wont specify which). A couple of years ago he arranged a small reunion of retired officers and ORs which was to be held at said base. The plans were going well till he found out that on arrival the coach in which they were to arrive would have to disgorge its OAP pax, each of whom would have to check in individually, (30-45 minutes?)and an escort provided from the guardroom to the mess. He asked if he could handle the check-in forms in advance and take personal responsible for them during their visit to the base he formerly commanded, but was told this was not possible.

At that point he said "sod it" and they had the reunion at a nearby hotel instead. Dunno what rank you retired as Four Types but it looks as though four rings on your sleeve and scrambled egg on your hat wouldnt have made any difference!

[Melchett01]

I'm afraid it's only going to get harder to do this sort of thing. As bases are closed down, sorry rationalised, and we move to an all eggs in one basket posture, those remaining locations will only become more critical and therefore more sensitive and therefore harder to get on to if you aren't part of the permanent staff there.

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, and you forgot to mention catering by contractor.

I attended a dining-in night at a joint unit that had sufficient real catering personnel to manage the function. The contractor refused help and insisted on doing it themselves. Despite a thorough briefing by the PMC they left a lot to be desired, in particular silver service was not done properly.

[thing]

As bases are closed down, sorry rationalised, and we move to an all eggs in one basket posture, those remaining locations will only become more critical and therefore more sensitive and therefore harder to get on to if you aren't part of the permanent staff there.

Unless you're a delivery driver/plumber/electrician/Uncle Tom Cobley and all. If you want to get into anywhere just turn up in a bread van.

[Melchett01]

Unless you're a delivery driver/plumber/electrician/Uncle Tom Cobley and all. If you want to get into anywhere just turn up in a bread van.

Not at my location where the recent changes so that all non-resident military personnel have to give plenty of advance notice of visiting whilst contractors and delivery men have to be pre-booked at the MGR and accompanied at all times by the host.

There's been much wailing and gnashing of teeth by contractors, civil servants and those living on camp who don't have the experience to remember that this is just winding the clock back to the days that military establishments actually took security seriously.

PN,

Concur old bean, the standard of contractors is pretty poor and its only going one way as everything comes down to one or 2 companies. And as we close bases and it becomes harder for these companies to make an overall profit from the military, they are just going to rip us off, sorry, take the piss, er - no, sorry again, search for other ways to maximise revenue streams so that it's profitable for them to provide a high level of service. Oh look, a flying pig. But as a former staunch defender of the importance of the Mess and broader station life in terms of morale and unit cohesion, I hate to say it, but I'd now never voluntarily move back on base having enjoyed living in my own home in the community.

[Rigga]

Quite right too.
You've just joined the great many of us unwashed Ex's who's only link with the modern RAF is our ever reducing friends behind the wire. No privileges; can't use the Mess, can't use the Gym. The door has firmly been slammed behind us.

But we are no longer required persons. No matter how attached or important you feel you are, you're not entitled to unrestricted access to any MOD place of work or even personnel accomodation. That was always the rule and now they're being properly enforced. Put up with it, or don't go.

[exuw]

Four Types

They say you should never engage in ad hominem argument on the internet but I feel moved to do just that in your case.

You don't say what it was that you did when you were "in". My guess is that it had nothing to do with the intelligence or security function. Nor do you adduce any evidence to show that you have any particular insight in to the way that global security risk has changed in the two and half years since you were part of Her Maj's finest fighting arm. The world is a different place now to an extent that is hard to persuade people of.

I suspect too that you have not yet conveyed the beef evident in your post through the appropriate channels to your former staish (or his or her successor(s)) in order to establish just why you had the experience you claim to have had.

Perhaps you did. In which case could we see the (suitably redacted) correspondence in order better to understand the reasons behind your disappointing visit.

Simply relying on the "Don't you know who I am?" approach without insight into the current motivation and methods of those whose job it is to seek to ensure the security and safety of all still serving, as against those who were once "in", runs the risk of beaching on the shores of Cilla (see Cabin Crew forum passim).

The assessment and management of risk is an inexact science, as well I know from 30 years in the reinsurance industry. It doesn't help, of course, that all of us, whether military or civvie, now operate under severe costs constraints. These narrow the options on the spectrum of Rolls-Royce security with absolutely no inconvenience to those sensitive to impairment of their enjoyment of life to indifference to the fact that the guy on the gate wears ISIL black and totes an AK47. We have to make do with something in the middle somewhere. Just where is, of course, a matter of debate but at least contribute something constructive to that debate.

Those whose job it is to keep us from harm deserve better than anonymous bitching on the internet. If you have any sensible ideas about how to achieve a proper balance between your social convenience and the risk of serious harm to others involved in the UK's military then by all means offer them to those who are responsible for risk assessment and management.

Otherwise STFU.

[thing]

I don't think that anyone is arguing against the need for greater security. If you have no right or need to be somewhere then you don't go there, no matter who you were or are. It does go a bit pear shaped occassionally but it's better to be held up for the wrong reasons than to be let in for the wrong reasons.

Melchett: my bread van comment was purely tongue in cheek, although if you go back twenty years I bet I wouldn't be far off the mark.

[exuw]

Thing

Thank you.

You say in two lines what I struggled to say in perhaps too many.

[thing]

A skill honed through many years of trying to get a word in edgeways with the wife...:)

[The Old Fat One]

Get on with your life. Better things to do than visit worn out messes and service clubs. If your mates are your mates they will drink with you wherever. Look forwards not backwards. Life should be an adventure and you don't have adventures when you are reliving the past.

Just saying.

PS

Security should come before convenience these days anyway.

[NutLoose]

Handed in my ID before Christmas, travelled down during resettlement for the section Christmas piss up and still technically in the RAF for another 3 weeks, had to be escorted back onto camp!!!! only been gone a week.


Never stepped foot back on a station since... except air shows.

[Above The Clouds]

I left 31 years ago, never went back and never looked back, move on with your life times have changed but enjoy the memories.

"thing" summed it up very well;


If you have no right or need to be somewhere then you don't go there, no matter who you were or are. It does go a bit pear shaped occassionally but it's better to be held up for the wrong reasons than to be let in for the wrong reasons.

[Thomas coupling]

I concur - get on with your life 4 types - mind you after 35 yrs you have probably been institutionalised and can't cope without the military umbilical cord.

That reminds me does the RAF still lend itself to officers using their rank after they leave the mil?

Saw a reverend the other day who still calls himself Squadron Leader - :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[exuw]

TOFO

"Security should come before convenience these days anyway."

And afterwards.

"Please adjust your dress before leaving". :}

[thing]

Get on with your life. Better things to do than visit worn out messes and service clubs. Depends what the service clubs are. When you are offered a squillion foot of tarmac to fly off with approach aids virtually a stone's throw from one's abode it would seem churlish to refuse...:)
.

[exuw]

Thomas coupling

I have a vague memory that it is socially acceptable for anyone retired from rank OF-4 and above to continue to use that appellation in civvie life afterwards, i.e.

Lieutenant Commander - RN
Lieutenant Colonel - Pongos
Wing Commander - RAF

Those who didn't achieve such exalted heights before leaving should never try to boast of their stunted attainment afterwards.

[thing]

Re the carrying on of rank, I understood that senior officers could continue to use their rank as a title. So Sqdn Ldr and equivalent.

I was introduced at a function once to an elderly gentleman, 'Captain ****'. I asked him what his role had been in the Navy to which he brusquely replied 'Royal Logistics Corps actually.' I didn't press the point that he perhaps shouldn't be using the title 'Captain.'

Those who didn't achieve such exalted heights before leaving should never try to boast of their stunted attainment afterwards. Cruel but I feel I shall file that one away for future use...:)

[Courtney Mil]

Four Types,

I can't quite work out if you're being serious or attemtping a wind-up. If you have business on a base, you can gain access according to the current requirements. If you want to go to the mess to socialise as a non-member, you have no right of access. And why should you have?

You can always get a mate to bring you in, but I would be very disappointed if a guard on the gate were to to open the gate to you on the basis of your "Don't you know who I am? I served here for 35 years!" Hardly counts, does it?

You left, you handed in your ID, you have no need nor right to enter the establishment. It's the same for all of us that have left. We are not a part of the Armed Forces and cannot, therefore, expect to be able to walk freely in their secure areas.

I'm surprised anyone would think otherwise.

[Bigbux]

I informed said jobsworth

So after 35 years of Service, that's how you view your co-workers. Boy do you have some high expectations. Make sure you insist on your civilian colleagues addressing you by your rank - or better still, calling you Sir - if you can get a job.

[Rigga]

I once saw an ex-Wg Cdr join a company still thinking his rank counted for something.
I watched his steep learning curve increase daily as he found that all his "Good Idea's" were taken up by the bosses and had to be made to work...by him alone!

[thing]

I knew a Wg Cdr who commited suicide shortly after he left, his wife said he just couldn't cope. He was a very decent man as well, I'm sure some here will know him.

[Courtney Mil]

Not all ex-Wg Cdrs feel the need to carry their rank around, thank you.

Thing, he was a good chap.

[ian16th]

Re the carrying on of rank, I understood that senior officers could continue to use their rank as a title. So Sqdn Ldr and equivalent.

Plus an oddity, former army Captains from cavalry regiments, if they are working with HORSES!!

A certain Capt. Mark Phillips is an example.

[thing]

The Army have always been a bit of a mystery to me. Don't they have Lance-Sergeants in some regiments? Having said that, I'm all for keeping tradition alive and the Army seem to be good at it.

[Union Jack]

Re the carrying on of rank, I understood that senior officers could continue to use their rank as a title. So Sqdn Ldr and equivalent. - Thing

I'm sure that we've been here before but, for the avoidance of doubt, the link http://www.debretts.com/forms-addres...ormer-officers shows that the ranks which may be used on retirement are actually:

Royal Navy - Lieutenant Commander

Army - Captain**

RAF - Squadron Leader

** Curiously enough since it is one rank lower than the rank indicated for the other two Services, but would cover both Thing's RLC man - and Mark Phillips!:ok:

That said, I know very few officers who either use, or insist on the use of, their rank - many Admirals and Air Marshals included....

Jack

[thing]

Thanks for that UJ. I know an ex CAS and knight of the realm who is very laid back and unassuming. But never mention that he's retired as he will point out in no uncertain terms that in actual fact he's not...:)

[BEagle]

For a few years after I'd left the RAF, I was still able to gain access to the station as I was a civilian member of an on-site club and had the relevant pass.

But I watched the place getting tattier and scruffier as the years went by, with fewer and fewer people in blue around the place. Not that they were in the latest fashion of combat pyjamas, they simply weren't there, although a handful of scruffy civilian contractors were wandering around instead.

A real shame. So I left the club, handed in my passes and preferred to live with memories of happier times, rather than the reality of 21st century squalor...:(

Worst ever was going back to RAFC a couple of years ago - to find no aeroplanes (apart from a few plastic pigs) and no students. The place was like a morgue.

[Tankertrashnav]

Don't they have Lance-Sergeants in some regiments?

My dad was one in the Scots Guards. Wore 3 white stripes and was in reality a corporal. "Real" sergeants wore gold stripes.

Re retired rank. An admiral, KCB, moved to a Cornish village after he retired. He introduced himself at the pub, and the landlord asked him how he preferred to be addressed. He replied "Admiral, or Sir John - either is fine". He was somewhat taken aback on his next visit when a regular called out from the corner "Hello sailor!"

[thing]

Worst ever was going back to RAFC a couple of years ago

I think we met and I share your sentiments.

[Davef68]

I have, over the years, come across a couple of ex-RAF people who signed themselves as "Flight Lieutenant ********* RAF (Retd)" in correspondence.

[oldpax]

8 Sqdn birthday bash at Waddington this year.Organisation was brilliant waited at the Officers mess for a large coach which took us all to the airfield where a big hangar had been decorated with a "Sentry"and a "Hunter "plus of course all the dining tables etc,meet and greet with a G&T and a mingle with the people in blue uniforms then the dinner with anecdotal stories read out!All in all no complaints ,there were ten of us old OAP types and we actually wandered about to the 8Sqdn HQ were there is a memorial wall with members names on it.I believe there were about 500 people there and it was brilliant .

[exuw]

Union Jack said:

Royal Navy - Lieutenant Commander
Army - Captain**
RAF - Squadron Leader
** Curiously enough since it is one rank lower than the rank indicated for the other two Services, but would cover both Thing's RLC man - and Mark Phillips!


And James Hewitt.

Seems that friendship with da laydees of the Royal Family confers on some the right to continue to use one's otherwise undistinguished military rank in private life.

(Rumour has it that Hewitt failed the exams to Major three times and that he finally achieved that rank after leaving the Army. Quite how or why I can't fathom).

[thing]

Rumour has it that Hewitt failed the exams to Major

I can't hear the rank of Major without thinking of Major Major Major Major in Catch 22. Shortened of course to Maj. Major. I am a bad person.

[O-P]

CM,

When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.

There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.

[reynoldsno1]

I didn't press the point that he perhaps shouldn't be using the title 'Captain.'
... ISTR that it was also the habit of Army regiments to commission the RSM in the rank of Captain before retirement so that they received a better pension ...

[Army Mover]

... ISTR that it was also the habit of Army regiments to commission the RSM in the rank of Captain before retirement so that they received a better pension ...

Not sure about this, but ISTR that you needed 2 years in the rank before you got the higher pension.

[Wensleydale]

I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm! No longer is it valid and therefore you would need to be security cleared again in order to get access to base without an escort (which undoubtedly costs money).

[Above The Clouds]

I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm


To be quite honest I am surprised it takes a few months to lapse, once you hand in your ID that should terminate any requirement to gain access to a secure area, in the civil world with access to secure areas once your finished all access stops immediately and so it should.

[strake]

Many years ago, my old flying instructor, who had a wonderful career with the RAF, mused to me over a beer, 'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'

[Madbob]

I left the RAF in 1989 and have seldom looked back apart from various reunions over the years. Initially these were on base and we were welcomed by the powers-that-be, i.e. PMC/Mess Manager and could hold a private function in the mess and get accommodation. All that changed a long time ago and we now meet-up invariably in an hotel.


Times have changed and I accept that but it still saddens me that such one time perks, as decent food, decent staff, a friendly bar, and a "batty" service have all but gone.


The point thought that Four Types initially made though was in part more general and that was the poor way that ex-service personnel (of all colours) get treated as veterans. Much more I think ought to be done to recognise the service that vets have given to the country.


I remember lots of visits by ex-RAF personnel in the guise of RAFA visits, or former RAF servicemen/women of the staff of ATC squadrons etc. who inevitably got a tour of the ATC tower, Fire Section and a spiel of what the station did, whether it be front-line stuff or flying training. I met some very interesting people in the process. I very much hope that such visits still go on.......


I fully understand the need for additional security to restrict access to military establishments but I think it fairly safe to assume that former service personnel are a pretty low threat......and can be considered to play still for the same side whether in uniform or not!


MB

[Ex Cargo Clown]

All a bit paranoid and OTT. I remember very well having to jump the fence at Valley in 1993 on the Ros side and go to to the Ops centre next to fully armed Jags. I didn't get stopped. And it was for a good reason I had to go there.

[Arm out the window]

'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'

...or to paraphrase and drag gutterwards, one quotable quote from this hemisphere was "I love the f*****g RAAF and the RAAF loves f*****g me!"

Having said that, I must agree with those above who've intimated that we're entitled to be in certain places when we're in, but after that we shouldn't expect automatic special treatment.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oldpax, live a few miles away but felt no impelling need to seek an invite or attend.

[Chugalug2]

Times change and thus we are forced to as well. The moment that single members could move out of the Mess into there own property spelt out the writing on the wall. Does anyone at all live in them now on a permanent basis? Those magnificent pseudo Georgian piles now run more by plc's rather than pmc's are fast losing their raison d'etre.

That tendency will have been accelerated by the difficulty of Squadron Associations arranging reunions on the station that their serving squadron inhabits. Mine has all but abandoned the effort and has gravitated to inviting the Squadron to a less than local hotel, rather than the latter inviting us to its Messes (either Sgts & WOs, or Officers). I would have thought that enhanced the security threat to serving and ex-serving individuals, but then again I don't see the big picture...

[Yeller_Gait]

...or to paraphrase and drag gutterwards, one quotable quote from this hemisphere was "I love the f*****g RAAF and the RAAF loves f*****g me!"

Multiply the f*** factor by 10 and you will be somewhere near the RAF. To be fair though, there are some idiotic rules enforced at bases around the RAAF, different bases, different rules.

Is it so wrong that I have still have my RAF ID card several years after leaving?

Y_G

ps, never been back to UK to try and use it to gain access either, I just never got round to handing it in as I had somewhere better to go.

[Courtney Mil]

CM,

When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.

There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.

I always thought that people have names, why not use them.

Brings to mind our Sqn Ldr Ops at Chiv. He'd been around a long time and just lived to fly. Lovely bloke. He'd been bollocked many years earlier for failing to call someone important "Sir". His solution was to call everyone "Sir" regardless of who they were.

[Four Types]

Got a few bites on that one! Just to clarify a few points.


I am not attached to the RAF by an umbilical!...I have well and truly departed the crumbling ruin I proudly joined 34+ years ago. I have moved on to a new and more interesting career.


I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?' but as I get older and more senile I sometimes feel the need to ask my long suffering wife this question first thing in the morning!!


As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO (to which I thank my Flt Cdr for - NOT!) so I am afraid I had security ripped out of my ar*e on many occasions on behalf of those amongst us who didn't share my respect for it.


No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour. Having just retired I know how busy they are and also my 'gripe' is aimed at the Military in general, not just one person.


I do not expect to be allowed to wander on to a camp at will, hence my gripe at the Airshow Free Pass remark.


I referred to the US system of giving the veterans the option of utilising the facilities on camp (gym, mess, bars, shops(!)). Thus, whilst you are still in and security cleared you could apply for a pass (make it one/two station specific if you will) and then still be able to socialise with the chaps you served with as they move on over the next 5 years. Not too much to ask for is it?


I was more upset that the chap who took the time to invite me had to leave his beer and come and escort me back to his beer! Never been keen on inconveniencing friends.


But, all in all I knew this would be a good topic for a discussion. It reminds of those days when we could sit around the crew room and banter each other remorselessly. Can't do that anymore, I am not allowed in!

[ShotOne]

Is it really so unreasonable to restrict access to military installations to EX-servicemen? Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald were both ex-servicemen.

If you feel hard done-by, try using your pass to go airside at any civilian airport as an ex-employee and see how far you get.

[exuw]

When already in a hole, stop digging.......

Four Types:

Given that at least three of the paragraphs in your "Right to reply" appear to address my post #13, I'll bite again.

I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?'

I nveer said that you did but the whole tone of your original post screams that this is/was your mindset - particularly given your use of the word "jobsworth".

As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO

As a mere civvie I am unfamiliar with this nomenclature. I tried Goggling this acronym but gave up after scrolling through ten pages of otherwise unrelated references. No doubt your role was vital to the defence of the nation and afforded you special insight into security matters but, if so, I remain to be persuaded by what you have said so far.

No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour.

I did not say you needed to write to demand a 14 page explanation. Any staish worth his or her salt would surely be able respond in a concise fashion to any polite enquiry from former serving personnel as to why security on-site is configured the way it is given specific geographical location, frequency of visitors, proportion of civilian against serving personnel, sensitivity of ops on base etc.

Your "gripe" may well be aimed at the "Military in general" but I suspect you are more likely to get a meaningful response from the local commander than if you try approaching the CAS (or even the CDS).

I hope your host who had to leave his beer for a few minutes understands better than you appear to do. If not then he and you should arrange to banter off-base.

[Easy Street]

ShotOne,

That would only be a fair comparison if airport employees' social clubs and guest accommodation were airside, which they aren't, and if a significant number of airport workers lived airside, which they don't.

----

A great advantage of the US system of maintaining the link between the retired community and the base is that the potential market for on-base shops, social facilities, etc is greatly increased - all of which benefits the serving inhabitants through e.g. having a large and cheap supermarket on site. Then there are the intangible benefits to the moral component of fighting power accrued from unforced and natural social contact between the retired generation and the serving 'youth'.

The US can manage this without a problem because they have a much more layered approach to security than does the typical British military base, and hence can be less worried about the number of 'social' passes issued to families and veterans. British bases are slowly changing as infrastructure gets rebuilt, with the introduction of proximity cards, touchpads or other forms of control of access for the more sensitive areas. I wonder if this might, in time, result in a slightly more 'can-do' attitude to social visitors to domestic areas?

Finally - security clearances 'lapsing'. AIUI retirees are required to hand back their passes almost immediately, thereby losing their rights of access, but their security-cleared status (i.e. SC, DV, etc) continues until its next renewal date (note, being 'security-cleared' does not actually get you anywhere unless you have relevant employment). Cleared status has traditionally been seen as an attractive CV item when applying to certain sectors of industry as it saves them paying for it themselves. Finding the vaguest of reasons to get clearances renewed towards the end of a final tour of duty has been a long-standing wheeze!

[camelspyyder]

Mind you - banter is only allowed now if there is a 0.00% chance of it offending anyone at all in the entire EU, or the possibility of infringing on their personal rights in some way. Hardly worth getting a temporary pass for a barrel these days - the Fun Police are here to stay.

[langleybaston]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of being denied access [or access being more trouble than its worth]: the first day of retirement is the first day outside the magic circle, and yes, it does hurt.

Even for this civvy more or less permanently attached, with a slack handful of passes and almost every clearance known to mortal man, giving it all up caused many a pang. I miss the RAF more than I miss the Met. Office, for sure.

Hence my pathetic maunderings and mumblings on this forum!

[Union Jack]

When already in a hole, stop digging....... Exuw

Oo err, Missus! Standing by for the former USyO to lambaste Exuw for failing to comply with the statement at the top of Military Aviation page and apparent lack of experience with Service banter or, indeed, awareness of the definition of an acronym.....:=

Jack

PS And to think I was under the impression that "exuw" meant a former Underwater Weapons rating:)

[Jimlad1]

I'm still upset that despite working for tesco for 3 years, nearly 20 years ago, I've not been entitled to access to their staff canteen and discount cards. Who do I complain to? :E

[Pontius Navigator]

I became an honorary member of my old mess for a few years after I retired and while I had relevant employment. We attended functions especially while the station went through a rebuild phase. Eventually the experience gap became too much while I gained interests outside and the youth inside were so different.

Do today's young men want to associate with yesterday's WIWs?

[ian16th]

In my later, post RAF life, I was required to do some work at a certain government establishment in Cheltenham.

To gain access, I was to PV'd, but because I had moved house so often I couldn't comply with the requirements of supplying referee's that were not work or family related, that had known me continuously for X years.

I suggested that they might like to liaise with RAF Insworth where it was on record that I had been trusted to work on nuclear armed a/c only a few years previously.

I don't know if the powers that be, ever did this, but not only was I allowed, under constant escort, into the 'Cabbage Patch', but sometime later when I had been promoted out of that job and out of the area. This same customer needed some more work done and insisted to the company that I was the person to do it!

[Four Types]

EXUW....cheers for the HUGE bite!!....another military term....suggest you look under 'Gullible'


USyO is a Unit Security Officer......the chap on a Squadron (military group of personnel who banter each other tongue in cheek) who gets shafted when his mates leave classified lying around!


Oh! and don't be so quick to flatter yourself.....my right to reply was not directed solely at you ...more to the group in general.


If you had served in the military you would see through my thinly veiled thread. Beware, there are people on this site who like to light the odd fuse and stand back......


:o)

[Flap62]

And if you served in the military you would also recognise someone who made a post that made them look a little bit silly and then tried to recover their position with "but it was only banter and look at all the bites i got"

[Toadstool]

F-62

Just what I as going to say. Four Types came on here and tried to get sympathy thinking that just because he used to be in he ought to get treated like he was still serving.

When confronted by those who pointed out the error of his ways, he tried to bluster and pretend that it was just a big fishing exercise.:ok::ok:

[exuw]

Make up your mind.

Either you are a supremely Machiavellian troll who has succeeded in ensnaring a civvie who has never served on a squadron (thanks for the definition, by the way - very helpful) into your cunningly camouflaged internet net or you are an individual who for whatever reasons clearly has issues over his perceived treatment since he left the military (as evidenced by your original post and your right to reply at #54 taken together).

If the former, then you seem to have netted many others aside from me. Well done. Good military banter and all that. I have, of course, never come across the concept of banter in all my years of civilian life - clearly my loss.

However I strongly suspect the latter since your posts are so "thinly veiled" as to leave little doubt. It's a bit late now to call a wah.

But you are quite right. I really shouldn't be posting here at all. No doubt the moderators will step in if they feel strongly enough about it, eh?

By the way, Union Jack, I have no difficulty in verbalising USyO in much the same way I can NATO.

[Above The Clouds]

Toadstool
Just what I as going to say. Four Types came on here and tried to get sympathy thinking that just because he used to be in he ought to get treated like he was still serving.

When confronted by those who pointed out the error of his ways, he tried to bluster and pretend that it was just a big fishing exercise.


The problem being, the fishing rod was to small for the size of some of the fish he caught.

[MPN11]

It's all been a fascinating read. :ok:

When I left, I left ... that was it, albeit after only 30 years. Time to move on, and have a new/different life.

I remember the old/retired propping up the bar at Uxbridge, especially at Sunday lunchtime. Didn't really want to be one of those, totally out of touch with 'today' and just droning on about "WIW..." - essentially what PN said a couple of posts up-thread. It's 'their' world now, not mine any more.

[Herod]

Just as an aside on carrying rank over, am I the only one who gets irritated with those pull-down menus on some websites? After the usual "Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms", all of which I can live with, we then come to "Dr, Rev". Why?

[PeregrineW]

There's never one for Eur Ing, either. ;-)

(Or "Former Corporal"...)

[ShotOne]

Perhaps if folk didn't take this quite so personally; it's not about "the RAF not loving you anymore". Its about the junior rank on duty who sees a stranger on base. He wants to see Forces ID which you don't have, doesn't want to be difficult or drag his boss out of the bar but he is placed in a difficult position which may make the challenge less likely.

[exuw]

Dr, Rev, and so on...

Not to mention Prof or Rt Hon.

[Lima Juliet]

Of course, those that retire before their Normal Retirment Date (NRD) will automatically join the Regular Reserve of the Royal Air Force up to age 55 (or even later depending on when you joined and what rank you attained). JSP516 contains the details.

When the RAF Retired List was binned then the RAF lost an instant access record to work out who was a Regular Reserve. I think the easiest way to show someone what liability they have remaining as a Regular Reserve would be to issue a MoD90 (F1250 in new money) with an expiry date for the end of your liability period. Then they could enjoy access to the RAF whilst they remain a Regular Reserve, once that period is over, then they become a Veteran. Then the RAFA's Retired Service Card should be used - https://www.rafa.org.uk/members/membership-types/retired-service-card

It should be so easy to sort out, but as ever our scribblies are too busy trying to scr3w the rest of us left to sort out anything useful...:ugh:

LJ

[sadhatmo]

I concur - get on with your life 4 types - mind you after 35 yrs you have probably been institutionalised and can't cope without the military umbilical cord.

That reminds me does the RAF still lend itself to officers using their rank after they leave the mil?

Saw a reverend the other day who still calls himself Squadron Leader - :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

We live in a country where you can change your name to whatever you want (by and large). Some bloke changed his name to Lord whatever. So if some dude who has served and actually earned his title what harm is there in still using it, more so as civil custom and etiquette permits. I think it says more about those who are upset by it rather than those that use their old title. Be a hell of a dull world if we were all the same, no?

I do agree with Thomas though on getting on with your life on leaving the Service. If you do have occasion to return for whatever reason social or otherwise then put up with what is asked of you. One of the things that would irk me when I was in was the "ex so and so" who pitched up and tutted at anything he found different to his time in.

[Arkroyal]

I've been out now for longer than I was in, but returned to a Royal Naval Air Station recently for the funeral of an old mate.

When I was dropped at the gate in the morning to collect my car, I realised immediately that I might have some bother getting in to collect it. Quite rightly too.

The extremely polite rating on the gate used his discretion and, after seeing my driving licence, and witnessing my remote key opening the car door, allowed me to proceed, in his sight to get my car.

Such a refreshing change from the experience with the security staff at a Midlands airport, whose obstructive and rude treatment blighted my last few flying years.

As for carrying rank forward to civvie street, it amazes me. I managed to put up with an ex pongo blanket stacked in the local pub who introduced himself as 'Major', until one day having to point out that rank among civilians is about as relevant as size amongst turds.

[Wensleydale]

Finally - security clearances 'lapsing'. AIUI retirees are required to hand back their passes almost immediately, thereby losing their rights of access, but their security-cleared status (i.e. SC, DV, etc) continues until its next renewal date (note, being 'security-cleared' does not actually get you anywhere unless you have relevant employment). Cleared status has traditionally been seen as an attractive CV item when applying to certain sectors of industry as it saves them paying for it themselves. Finding the vaguest of reasons to get clearances renewed towards the end of a final tour of duty has been a long-standing wheeze!


Not true nowadays sadly.....I believe that it now automatically lapses after 3 months if there have been no enquiries from employers etc rather than at the normal expiry date. I applied for a contractor pass at my old base after about 7 months retired but had to go through standard vetting before I could get one (despite having a significantly higher clearance when I retired). I would assume that those requiring a "social" pass would have to go through the same procedure.

[Biggus]

Why would anyone who had left/retired possibly want to go back onto an RAF base?


I could understand it if we were talking about a US military establishment, where there is probably a bowling alley, excellent gym, cinema, supermarket with reduced prices (no state tax), hairdressers, tailors, etc...


In the case of the UK there is now a Costa Coffee run by the PAYD contractor! Oh, I was forgetting, you'd return to an RAF base for reunions of all those fleets that have been scrapped, Squadrons which have been disbanded, and the actual airfield itself is now probably either an Army barracks or an industrial site with an associated housing estate!!

Or maybe a solar panel field or wind farm!!


Edited to add: It appears that when mentioning facilities on US military establishments I forgot to mention the golf course and attendant clubhouse restaurant - my bad!!

[1.3VStall]

Biggus,

Your post made me sad - because it's true!:{

[BEagle]

Biggus, perhaps to fly with a RAFFCA flying club, of which there are now 14?

Leon Jabachjabicz, whilst serving PVR-porridge at Binnsworth in 2003, I had to find out why some reservists hadn't responded to call-out notices. That took me about 2 days, but I kept my time there occupied with sending updates to the Gp Capt (a nice chap who knew I'd been shafted and was very sympathetic) as I investigated each case. The core reason for alleged recalcitrance was institutional incompetence - the system had failed to track 'reservists' whereabouts because the old system of a small annual allowance for reservists to update Binnsworth had been canned....

I pointed out that it would therefore be up to MoD to prove that a reservist hadn't informed them of an address change, or name change following marriage. How did they know that the reservist hadn't simply phoned in their new details, now that the odd system had been abolished? At least I'd stopped the pongos' proposal to go round to the last address mob-handed to kick the door down when we discovered the clear incompetence of the system.

The blunties were preparing a case against one chap; when I spoke with the legal folk I asked if the paperwork we had for him was an exact duplicate. "Of course", came the reply. "Well, that's a pity - the call-out notice hasn't been signed or dated"....:uhoh: But it seems that the original had, or so they said.

But whilst at Binnsworth, I made sure that I knew exactly what my call-out and recall liability would be for the time between PVR and age 55 and the subsequent RAFResO time. So when I received the usual retirement guff, I replied detailing my understanding, stating that if I didn't hear from them further, then I would assume that this was correct...... No reply, so that was that!

RAFResO and RAFResA liabilities are very poorly explained to those who PVR, many of whom probably have no idea that they are liable for call-out.....:\

[SASless]

Ark


:ok: :ok:

It is just some Turds are bigger than others it would seem!

[Wensleydale]

One wonders how many "spoof" call-ups have gone out to those on reserve commitments?:mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

Peregrine, try the Fur, Feather, Fin website:

Lord, Lady, General, Air Marshal etc :)

[BEagle]

The use of former military rank (Sqn Ldr and above as far as the RAF was concerned) as a title was quite normal in the 1960s. Even the local ironmonger in the little town near where I'd grown up would greet his customers using their rank!

But then came 'The troubles' and we were all actively discouraged from displaying or presenting any association with the armed forces when in public - except for parades etc. We all became 'Mr' and had to skulk into work wearing some civilian coat over our uniforms etc.......and to adopt 'sharkwatch' policies.

So it's hardly surprising that the correct use of former military rank is now quite rare.

[Mick Strigg]

Four Types, the clue is in the title; you are an ex-serviceman now. A civilian, a strawberry mivvy, the great unwashed. Get over it!

[Union Jack]

So it's hardly surprising that the correct use of former military rank is now quite rare. - BEagle

I applaud the emphasis on"correct".:ok: In a different sense, I suspect that it would be very revealing if posters on this forum were obliged to provide their "correct" rank, or indeed the lack of it!:hmm:

Jack

[LTCTerry]

I referred to the US system of giving the veterans the option of utilising the facilities on camp (gym, mess, bars, shops(!)). Thus, whilst you are still in and security cleared you could apply for a pass (make it one/two station specific if you will) and then still be able to socialise with the chaps you served with as they move on over the next 5 years. Not too much to ask for is it?This is almost correct, but oddly the deviations move in two directions. While under certain circumstances honorably discharged veterans retain some access for 24 months, in general veterans do not receive lifetime access. Retirees do.

Recreation facilities are actually open to the general public provided one applies for and receives a base access pass, after a reasonably thorough background check. The base golf course with its expensive restaurant needs all the customers it can get! (Side note, our base recreation facilities now have to generate enough income to cover their own expenses or they are quickly shut down.)

As I read through this thread, I now understand Agatha Christie's character Captain Hastings...

So, should I expect to be addressed as "lef-tenant colonel" or "loo-tenant colonel" when I emigrate* and claim Debrett's says it's OK? :) Perhaps I'll stick with 'Terry'; no one at the BGA clubs I've flown with seemed to care about anything other than my ability to get their glider(s) safely back on the ground!

*I don't really want to emigrate, but I would love to find a US Department of Defense job in the UK for a few years. Maybe by then the Air Cadet gliders will be back in service and I could be a civilian instructor (?), but that's a topic for a different thread. I am a member of our Civil Air Patrol here.

Terry


PS I've just discovered Foyle's War on Netflix, so speaking of titles, why are Deputy Chief Inspector Foyle and Sergeant Milner often addressed as "Mr."? That never happens on Morse or Lewis... I'm so confused!

[langleybaston]

Thread drift but Foyle is Detective Chief Superintendent Christopher Foyle.

My police-person [used to be policewoman] daughter says "detective-anything is often seen as being senior to officer-anything of the same nominal rank". Thus Milner has been known to be addressed as "sir" by a uniformed police sergeant.

[Surplus]

I left a while ago, whilst still in the mob, I gave the odd duty free bottle to a civvie in stores as a thank you for his good service (He had a reputation as a miserable jobsworth). When I left to join another flying club, I handed my kit in and was pleasantly surprised to find that he insisted on handling my kit return. It went very smoothly and I still have my watch.

Treat everybody as you would like to be treated, you never know what is in the future.

Senior Officers who garner respect from their troops never need to to use their rank on retirement, we all know the good ones, the bad ones will insist on using it.

[Lonewolf_50]

Is it really so unreasonable to restrict access to military installations to EX-servicemen? Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald were both ex-servicemen. If I may explain to you.

Only those who have retired (min requirement 20 years of service) get that access to the base as a retirement benefit. Simply having served does NOT permit that. So, your two examples were NOT correct.

@Thomas Coupling I concur - get on with your life 4 types - mind you after 35 yrs you have
probably been institutionalised and can't cope without the military umbilical cord. TC, that badly veiled insult wasn't well played.

As to what the has beens get up to ...

I've been out now just over 10 years, on my third job since, and have been challenged in new directions. Now that both kids are in their early 20's, the missus and I have very much rekindled the romantic evenings together that we used to enjoy when I wore a flight suit. One night she asked if it still fit ... nostalgia .. and oops, I need to drop a few pounds ... so maybe I should for her sake.

I still occasionally sign with my name & CDR, USN(Ret) on some documents, in particular anything I send in a letter to a congressman or senator. Mostly I just go by my name. It's what my parents gave to me, and has worked so far.

[The Old Fat One]

I still occasionally sign with my name & CDR, USN(Ret) on some documents, in particular anything I send in a letter to a congressman or senator. Mostly I just go by my name. It's what my parents gave to me, and has worked so far.

ditto, except replace congressman or senator, with a member of parliament/town councilor. Works a treat IMO.

[Union Jack]

ditto, except replace congressman or senator, with a member of parliament/town councilor. Works a treat IMO.

The Old Fat One
CDR, USN(Ret)

It certainly does :ok:

Jack

[Slow Biker]

I once bumped into a recently retired 2* who had been my sqn cdr and later my staish. I was still serving and naturally addressed him as 'sir'. He replied he was now retired and his friends called him David. I was then a chief tech, hardly mates with 2* officers, but that was the man he was. He was a leader, the type one confidently would follow 'over the top'.

[Herod]

We're at post 92, and nobody's mentioned it; shouldn't bu**ar be spelt (or spelled) Bu**Er?

[kintyred]

Bursar????

[PeregrineW]

Peregrine, try the Fur, Feather, Fin website:

Lord, Lady, General, Air Marshal etc

Nice site -if a tad pricy compared to Bob Parratt! Sadly, still lacking in the appropriate prenominals for one such as myself :(

[exuw]

Union Jack

"I suspect that it would be very revealing if posters on this forum were obliged to provide their "correct" rank, or indeed the lack of it!"

OK. You go first.

Cardinal Fang - fetch...the comfy chair!

[Union Jack]

A nice try, Exuw, and I'm surprised that it took so long for you to ask.

Fortunately for me, and many others no doubt, there is no such obligation, so you will barely have had time to settle in that comfy chair before discovering that I have absolutely no intention of humouring you!:ok:

Jack

[exuw]

You've never watched Monty Python, have you?

[glad rag]

I once bumped into a recently retired 2* who had been my sqn cdr and later my staish. I was still serving and naturally addressed him as 'sir'. He replied he was now retired and his friends called him David. I was then a chief tech, hardly mates with 2* officers, but that was the man he was. He was a leader, the type one confidently would follow 'over the top'.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Surplus]

Originally Posted by Slow Biker
I once bumped into a recently retired 2* who had been my sqn cdr and later my staish. I was still serving and naturally addressed him as 'sir'. He replied he was now retired and his friends called him David. I was then a chief tech, hardly mates with 2* officers, but that was the man he was. He was a leader, the type one confidently would follow 'over the top'.

With an attitude like that, I bet a lot of people call him David.

:D:D

[JagRigger]

Hmmm - I left after 22 some 8 years ago. Last month I went back uniform with the Air Training Corps and had to go to my nearest ( large flying base ) to draw kit.


Couple of quick questions in the MGR and a quick look at my temporary paper ID card and I had unrestricted access.


Having drawn kit I wandered over to the hangars to look up some old mates, even asking directions of uniformed personnel as I wandered round in civvies, and not once was I challenged.


Not complaining - just didn't realise things had changed. This was just like it was in the good old days.

[Pontius Navigator]

I thought Bu**ar was the upper crust way of saying bu**er, like garAge and garIge.

PN
Mr (rtrd)

[langleybaston]

I was FAR FAR too senior to embarrass anyone by revealing how very senior and important I was [and still am, I would remind you].

One of my good friends, annoyed by a colleague styling himself Lt Cdr RN Rtd decided that JT RAF Rtd was at least as relevant, and so styled himself when signing official documents. He said it knocked his King's Scout and BSc into a cocked hat.

[melmothtw]

While embedded with the US Army I was told I had the honorary rank of Major (or it could have been Captain, I don't fully remember). Can't say I ever had the occasion (or balls/cheek) to use it mind.

Even so, it more than trumps my previously held highest rank of 'Cadet'!

[sitigeltfel]

I once bumped into a recently retired 2* who had been my sqn cdr and later my staish. I was still serving and naturally addressed him as 'sir'. He replied he was now retired and his friends called him David. I was then a chief tech, hardly mates with 2* officers, but that was the man he was. He was a leader, the type one confidently would follow 'over the top'.

My SILs uncle, who was a Squadron Leader Padre, officiated at my brothers wedding. When I asked him how he would prefer to be addressed, Mike or Padre, he replied "Sir will do"!

I avoided him for the rest of the day.

[goudie]

I have never alluded to the rank I held in the RAF but I have sometimes been addressed as 'Chief', usually
by builders, plumbers et al. Funny that:confused:

[langleybaston]

Round South Lincs there is an apparent code: wear a tie [and the rest] and get called nothing or occasionally "sir"; wear no tie, Compo wellies and scruffs and it's inevitably "mate".
The ultimate challenge is to extract a "sir" when dressed as "mate".

[Union Jack]

You've never watched Monty Python, have you? - Exuw

Sorry, Exuw, no I haven't - too occupied guarding the ramparts of the free West, and moving up the Navy List.....:D

Jack

[Lonewolf_50]

You've never watched Monty Python, have you? - Exuw

Sorry, Exuw, no I haven't - too occupied guarding the ramparts of the free West, and moving up the Navy List.....:D

Jack The sketch you'll want to watch on Youtube is "The Spanish Inquisition." It will probably elicit a laugh.

[Union Jack]

The sketch you'll want to watch on Youtube is "The Spanish Inquisition."

VMT Lonewolf - When the mood takes me, I'll be sure to find a comfy chair!:ok:

Jack

[exuw]

Doh!!!!

You try to help people ......

[Herod]

Funnily enough, following my rant about Dr and Rev on pull-down menus, I've just been on a site that gives, as well as those, Sir, Capt, Prof, Maj.

[Rosevidney1]

I served in Crab Air and the Hairy Arm Korps, never the Navy but acne spotted youths working at shop tills almost invariably manage to call me 'mate'. They are rewarded by an icy stare for their cheek!

[MPN11]

British Airways has an interesting listing for their 'Frequent Flyer' membership details ... Senior ranks can poke off, but [B]Captain Blackadder is allowed :ooh:

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Screen%20Shot%202015-10-14%20at%2019.47.30.png (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Screen%20Shot%202015-10-14%20at%2019.47.30.png.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Mpn, a 4 ring captain but not a ship driver?

[Courtney Mil]

No, Army Capt.

[mopardave]

Bursar????

had one of those on my elbow.....bloody painful!

[MPN11]

PN and CM ... given the context, I suspect it's "Airline Captain" :cool:

"First Officer" is just plain "Mr" ;)

[langleybaston]

so, what is a Mstr?

[surely not masturbator?]

[goudie]

"Mstr." is used as a prefix for boys on the UK Passport Service online application form From Wiki.

[surely not masturbator?]

Could be quite apt. LB

[Union Jack]

Could be quite apt. - LB

Just so long as someone has the matter firmly in hand....:ooh:

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Just stick to the case in point.

[langleybaston]

I said amuse yourself, lad ......... are you deaf?

[MPN11]

My wife won't let me use my title on BA :ugh:

Mind you, a purchased American pseudo-Barony [$15, IIRC, and done as a wind-up for someone else] is possibly a bit out of order ;)

[smujsmith]

I'm off to a top table event tomorrow, in honour of a very special man retiring after many years service through MSS, C130 Ground engineer and as Warrant Officer SAGE (Senior Aircraft Ground Engineer) in recent years. There will be not one "sir", nothing but first names and great memories of times shared in days past. I suspect though that we will not be joined by many "senior officers" who might like to hang on to their former (self assumed) glory. It's a sad indictment of what is happening in the RAF these days that the event will be held in a local hotel, as the "major transport base" cannot provide a reasonable menu or cost for the attendees. If any of you retired "senior officers" need to locate your real standing for your assertions of superiority, I suggest Flt Lt Danny42C, on another thread might be worth a read. A man of few pretensions, but then, he was a real warrior officer !!!!

Smudge

[Courtney Mil]

If any of you retired "senior officers" need to locate your real standing for your assertions of superiority,

Bit harsh there, Smuj. Plenty here that don't assert any superiority on the basis of any previously held rank. Most of the debate here (well, a lot) is based on people's professional experience.

I acknowledge you may be writing more generally, but don't tar everyone with the same brush. :ok:

[NutLoose]

Highest rank I attain was Mr.. The rest was just superfluous.

[Wensleydale]

Smuj,


If my memory serves me, was it not "policy" as taught at OCTU many years ago that officers may put in a brief appearance at all ranks parties away from base but care should be taken to leave before the drinking really started? This was not to protect the officer should any fists start flying, but to protect the juniors from an end of career should they connect with the wrong chin. Not that I am saying that your top table would end up that way, but .....

[goudie]

as taught at OCTU many years ago that officers may put in a brief appearance

Fists start flying? That seems to me a very old fashioned view and more akin to the army or navy I would have thought.

However, senior officers putting in a brief visit (if they were invited) was all that was expected of them at the retirement parties I ever went to, including my own.
After I had left the RAF I went to a Chief/tech's leaving do. It was held in the Sgt's mess. Dinner was Silver Service, and not only did the Winco/tech turn up but also the Station Commander, who on leaving ordered the barman to keep the bar open as long as the party required it to!

The same etiquette existed at the company I worked for. A director would turn up at ones 'leaving do' say a few words, shake hands and bugger off...job done!

[Union Jack]

Fists start flying? That seems to me a very old fashioned view and more akin to the army or navy I would have thought.

Old-fashioned indeed, and certainly not in my Navy, thank you!:ok: Can't answer for the pongoes...

However, senior officers putting in a brief visit (if they were invited) was all that was expected of them at the retirement parties I ever went to, including my own.

Where's Hangarshuffle when you want him? He has previously expressed strong views on this.... :uhoh:

Jack

[dagenham]

Dagenham, Sixer (Cubs) Rtd

[Pontius Navigator]

Wensleydale, don't know if you were at Waddo when we had someone holding prior to a courts martial. Details limited to protect the guilt.

At an all ranks party at one of the less couth establishments where such things were common, there was an altercation where an officer was sufficiently incautious to allow himself to be decked.

In accordance with MAFL this is an absolute case and the guilty party was fined the best part of a month's pay. The GP was mightily relieved to receive only a fine and retain his rank.

The officer, the innocent party (:mad:), was advised that alternative employment would be good for his future careers.

And on WD's recollection, that was extant in the 60s as well. As Orderly Officer you would be advised to attend any fracas in the Airmens' Club and stand bravely behind the Orderly Sergeant and any RAFP available. As shown above, allowing oneself to be hit was almost as bad as an OR striking an officer.

[goudie]

and stand bravely behind the Orderly Sergeant


As Orderly Sgt at Akrotiri I and the Orderly Officer were warned by the SP's that there would be quite a few Paras drinking in the Airmen's Club, that evening.
I was briefed that if they were reluctant to leave I was to warn them that I would send for the police with dogs. ''And you sir, said the SP, ''I advise you to stay well away and let the Sergeant handle it'' (gulp)
As it happened, after some banter, they left quietly apart from knocking over a huge pyramid of empty Tennants beer cans, as they walked out.

[FODPlod]

As part of my junior officer's training, I accompanied a Petty Officer Regulator and his Leading Regulator sidekick of the Chatham-based Naval Provost Marshal's Shore Patrol around the hot spots of the Medway towns one Saturday night. They advised me to stay in the vehicle in the event of any altercation. As stated before, this was intended more to protect any sailor from aggravating his offence by having a pop at me than protecting me from injury.

The Naval Patrol had a close relationship with the local civpol and they looked out for each other's interests. On spying a long-haired drunk acting aggressively towards a group of people on the pavement, the PO Reg exited the patrol wagon saying, "It's okay, Sir. You can come along on this one. He's a civvy."