Ek on a "Down Hill" spiral

[puff m'call]

Along with all the problems this airline is having at the moment retaining crew, check out Youtube and type in the search First Class with (them down the road) in Ab Dabs.

I've actually spoken to someone who flew first class with them, they said they would never touch EK again!!! Speaks volumes.

So for an airline like EK who thinks its the best they better think again. They can't spend money on equipment to go inside their aircraft (flight deck and cabin) but they can buy lots of them!!

That 777 reg is so apt....EGO:ugh:

Oh but we've got a lovely new rostering system::D

[jack schidt]

Pointless post Puff, just to have a dig at EK without any real Pilot rumours/issues in the content (except rostering which is plenty in other threads).

Posts like this are more like bitching and moaning just to have a dig at EK and are putting this forum in jeopardy when posts like this are written. I hope this thread dies rapidly or is removed by mods.

J

[cerbus]

Yes we can not allow for the truth to get out. Why have our speech suppressed, we are mindless minions anyway.
Why don't we shut down Jack instead?

[olster]

To add some anecdotal perspective I also flew on that airline and it was without doubt the worst airline flight I have ever taken. Have a look at Trip Adviser for some 'interesting' reviews.

[ironbutt57]

self-loaded on both...pluses and minuses as with any carrier...

[bigdaviet]

I've flown with Etihad a few times.

I would say they are pretty good but food and inflight entertainment are better on EK IMO.

[The Zohan]

By the way, what happened to EK being in Forbes top 100 companies?

Not anymore....

tz

[harry the cod]

Surprised too Puff, considering you left several months ago. Hope you're not turning into another SOPS. ;)

Seriously though, I hope you're enjoying the freedom, vino, countryside and sailing mate! EK is poorer for your loss. :sad:

Harry

[falconeasydriver]

SS, things are never too far gone as in terms of its business as EK has a competitive value proposition and a compelling position in terms of connectivity.
All that however matters for nothing if the top floors choose to ignore or deny the excessive wastage and attrition of experienced and valuable staff as there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the operation is stretched to the limit. The trouble is, as I've stated previously, a middle aged mentality with respect to the treatment of employees has its consequences. TC can wax lyrically about his airline and how it benefits from globalisation, but it's a two edged sword as there are now a plethora of other opportunities available to well qualified and motivated expats to persue elsewhere under improved working conditions, something which also seems to have escaped AAR.

[Phantom Driver]

IB 57

self-loaded on both...pluses and minuses as with any carrier...

Have to agree. Flew recently with EK after a long while. Was impressed with the service improvements. (Sadly, these days have to turn right at the door rather than left...). Full load, but the guys and gals did a great job in "jurassic park".

[puff m'call]

Harry ole mate, I'm still here or I wouldn't have posted, and as one bright spark suggested, as to who I 'am the clue isn't in the name!!!:ugh:

If I'd have left I wouldn't spend my time on here, but while I'm still here I will post my thoughts and feelings so people out there know what going on.

It's not just an EK bashing as someone suggests, its the truth about what's happening here.

Let's see next month with this new roster system if life styles improve. it's been butchered that much in favour of the company we'll get screwed, again!!!

[Nikita81]

are putting this forum in jeopardy

because this forum is so important to everyone's life..

[Next Phase]

This thread has just reminded me why I stopped reading Pprune, mostly full of self appointed great oracles, who are most likely the guys I meet in the briefing room who kick off straight after greetings are done. Harping on about "How :mad: this company is and management have no idea what they are doing". Do YOU have any idea how many other people forecast exactly the same their airline in other threads... CX, BA, QF, QR... yadda yadda

To sum up yes, aviation is steadily sliding and hopefully with the arrival of the long predicted pilot shortage our pay will increase, but expect to work just as hard for it.
I'd hate to work for an airline that gave me everything, because these types don't last too long when there is competition and no government to prop them up.

If you don't like it VOTE WITH YOUR FEET!

Additionally, stop moaning at the poor bugger who has to fly with you, as he/she has to sit there and smile and listen to it without a chance of escape till the end of the flight, which makes a 4hrs flight feel like a long haul. And yes, the cabin crew also think you are no joy to be around!

Btw, no point replying, I won't bother coming back to Pprune, this was done out of a little hope of reducing the moaning I have to listen to on the flight deck.

[flaphandlemover]

Thast was funny NP...

You stop by, p🎉💥p in a corner so that it stinks and then you leave😄😄😄

You must be a joy to fly as you must be the one of the few that still thinks how great everything is.

Funny that everybody is wrong and just you see the greatness.

People must be sitting beside you and listening how great everything is with a smile😶😶😶

Have you ever wondered why they tell you:"Oh I see..." " thank you for the valuable input"?
If not then let me say it now.

Glad you are gone...👋🏻👋🏻👋🏻
:ugh::ugh::ugh:
:ugh:

[puff m'call]

flaphandlemover

Well spoken.

[harry the cod]

I'd imagine what Next Phase is referring to is not that everything is necessarily great at EK, more that he (or she) is pissed off at having to come to work day after day and listen to the same old moaning and groaning, sometimes incessantly throughout the whole flight. I flew with people like that at EK when I was an F/O over 12 years ago. I also flew with many Captains like that in my previous Company.....and the one before that. Pilots like to whinge! It's tiresome and it changes nothing other than making for a lousy day out. NP, like the majority of those who still enjoy the job, would also rather spend their precious time more productively rather than having to answer to the constant, and often petty bitching that pervades these forums.

If individuals put half the effort into writing to their Chief Pilot expressing their dissatisfaction that they do moaning at work, maybe they could expect change. Until they do, nothing will alter. All that negative attitude serves no purpose other than effecting their own day and that of their crew. It has sod all impact on those they complain about. The bouncy castle continues to bounce, while you immerse yourself deeper into your pit of frustration and despair, dragging your crew along with it.

Behaviour breeds behaviour.

Harry

[Nikita81]

@Next Phase

this was done out of a little hope of reducing the moaning
Is this new management's motivation strategy? :}

[cerbus]

Or maybe if the company treated us with just an ounce of professionalism and respect there would be less bitching.
As been said many times before just look at the new bidding system. They are turning the screws on us for no reason and this doesn't cost the company any money. They just like to screw us.
Until our applications are accepted at other airlines or we retire this is the most likely and vocal outlet to our frustrations. If a "happy" pilot can not accept this or can not understand this they truly have their head buried in the sand.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Harry.. Do you seriously and honestly think writing to the respective chief pilots about all the things that make the job miserable and fatiguing.... Will do anything??? Seriously, the reason EK pilots come here is because many have probably already done what you suggest and the results speak for themselves... More unanswered emails. So just to vent, we all come here.

Even you not long ago "whinged" as they say, about your lack of 42 days vacation. How'd that letter to your chief pilot work out for you, Harry? What did the chief pilot say in his return email to you? Did you end up getting your extra contractual days off vacation?? I'm guessing not. So.... THAT is why guys come here to vent their anger and frustration at the complete lack of respect for pilots EK continues to show all of you.... And we all know those very same Chiefs you say to write to about your gripes, actually read this forum.

So don't give sh*te to anyone on here who feels the need to vent the constant level frustration and aggravation at a system that clearly doesn't care in the least about you nor anyone else.

Same goes for you next phase. Why give a hard time to those who've moved on.... Can they not come and read and contribute? I enjoy hearing from those who've moved on!

Kapitanleutnant

[120feet]

I have heard a rumour that one lucky FO did write to a Chief making some suggestions, and was rewarded by his file being reviewed and then removed from line for an extra sim session. This from more than one source. NP- Why even enter this thread, (Pretty self explanatory.) if you don't want to hear whining. There's whining and there are serious complaints. I think we are all old enough to know the difference. On that note, I would like to kindly ask EK to PLEASE do something about your horrible call signs. 5-2-0, 5-3-0, 5-4-0, 3-4-0 all in the same hold!?!? Given the extreme work loads EK pilots and DXB controllers are facing does anyone else think this is a disaster waiting to happen? Fix IT!

[Boeingrestricted]

Did he maybe suggest "1 additional sim session before an LPC/OPC" just for the heck of it. Or 1 standard each month, so he could try it out....:))))

[Nikita81]

Harry.. Do you seriously and honestly think writing to the respective chief pilots about all the things that make the job miserable and fatiguing.... Will do anything???No he doesn't. It's an insidious manipulation to make you attack him and whine even more.

I will explain:

He always tries to sound "reasonable" and to get some extra points by sounding "objective" and "rational", but if you think about him and his orderly presence here (if we assume that he is a pilot and not a management troll), you have to ask yourself: why is he coming here?

Here is my theory: he also comes here to vent out, but he does it in a sly way - by reading your posts and by answering them.

Reading whining on a regular basis is also whining, whether you admit it or not. You use other people's whining as your soul food (so if Harry manipulates you to attack him and whine more, it's more soul food for him and bigger sense of self-importance). And sometimes, when you want to feel respected (because company took away all your dignity from you) you make a comment but opposite to the majority's opinion; and you do it in a "cold" and falsely rational manner in order to win some respect points. This is how you convince yourself that everything is ok with your life.

This is more complex type of whining, but still just whining.

And this is why Harry comes here and comments your posts:)

[Uplink]

I would say the best thing to do is to wait until TCAS has gone. Nothing will change whilst he is in power. I am hearing a lot of mutterings about things changing as he walks out the door.

Interesting training meeting the other day where MM was asked about commuting for ground trainers. He actually said there is a possibility that this could happen. TCAS jumped up and said no this wasn't going to happen....a tad embarrassing I would say!

[Praise Jebus]

That's what was said about TCK the post holder before TCAS. ...that didn't work out as many hoped. ..

[Nikita81]

Maybe you don't have the balls!Do you? I mean - did you write to them? Or are you like Harry: reading other people's whining on a regular basis, accusing them of being passive, but being passive yourself and gaining a sense of self-importance by criticizing others? I don't think you are like Harry, he is one of his kind.

[White Knight]

Quote:
Maybe you don't have the balls!
Do you? I mean - did you write to them? Or are you like Harry: reading other people's whining on a regular basis, accusing them of being passive, but being passive yourself and gaining a sense of self-importance by criticizing others? I don't think you are like Harry, he is one of his kind.

Plenty of us write in from time to time. We just don't brag about it trying to impress people. I'm with Harry here... You have no idea if he's passive or not!

You've only grown a 'pair' (so to speak) since you were fired for - by your own admission - being a very difficult person to work with!

Trust me. Some of us have won a few battles here over the years...

[Nikita81]

Trust me. Some of us have won a few battles here over the years... No, I don't trust you. And I don't believe you. I have a pretty good idea on your passiveness because if you actually did something all together, something would happen for better instead of only being worse.

I wasn't fired for being difficult to work with. Don't lie and don't manipulate information. I worked honestly and with responsibility. I was fired for asking my DVP if I can have bigger salary and better working conditions. Oh, and they said I can't ask her how much is her salary. I thought that I have the right to ask. She didn't like it.

As a result, she was moved from Airport Services (nobody liked her and couldn't work with her, SHE was the one hard to work with) and working conditions in ground services somewhat improved. Of course, somebody had to take it for the whole team. And this is your biggest problem, guys - nobody wants to take one for the team (and I don't blame you, it's a hard decision). Harry and White Knight keep pushing you to take the punch, so that they can stay in EK and enjoy the fruits of that person's fight (in this case - to write a letter to the management). Harry and White just don't know that nobody can't be pushed to do it and that it's not enough to wait for somebody to do it.

[kirungi1]

I'm still struggling to see where Harry has put a foot wrong. I think someone needs to move on. If it wasn't mean't to be, so be it! Move on :}

[puff m'call]

A friend of mine recently wrote a long and constructive letter to the top man himself Sir TC, what did he get in return? A reply for TCAS saying "we'll look into it".

Yeah right:ugh:

[Kapitanleutnant]

Do all of you think that there have been no emails written or ASR's written about both fatigue, layover lengths and horrible rostering? OF course there has!! By even your own admissions here…. but I'll ask again: What has been the result??? NOTHING!! So the feeling of both "Why Bother" and "If I do, I'm liable to get a call to come in for a chat because they didn't like my tone" absolutely permeates at the culture and toxic environment of EK.

If so many of you have written these items, why haven't things changed for the better as that's why you've written the reports?? Rhetorical question but the point is that for the most part (not all parts) but for the most part, they do nothing.

If there was not a fear culture of EK which I think most of you would agree with to a certain degree, maybe the guys wouldn't hesitant to write a lot more emails and ASR's. To do so "could" delay/defer that upgrade!!

K

[ExDubai]

A friend of mine recently wrote a long and constructive letter to the top man himself Sir TC, what did he get in return? A reply for TCAS saying "we'll look into it".

At least he got no warning letter because of "not respecting the line of reporting"

[Craggenmore]

Do all of you think that there have been no emails written or ASR's written about both fatigue, layover lengths and horrible rostering? OF course there has!! By even your own admissions here…. but I'll ask again: What has been the result??? NOTHING!!

Er.....children are no longer seated from row 80-88 around the CRC and the new 380's have the bunks in a completely different place.

Some things do happen even if it takes 5 years..!

So keep writing..........

[Kapitanleutnant]

That's great news Craggenmore! I hadn't heard that not being on the 380. Perhaps there is some little bit of hope.

I'd also be wary of an email from TC. I'm pretty sure that email more than likely came from the secretary to the his executive secretary and that STC never saw nor has any idea about the email's concern. Just a thought….

K

[Monarch Man]

Er.....children are no longer seated from row 80-88 around the CRC and the new 380's have the bunks in a completely different place.


To be fair Craggy, I'd be more inclined to believe that the continued rate of attrition is the real reason behind this. I do know that it has been mentioned on numerous occasions during exit interviews and during washups. I think it plays to the reality that in terms of the expat job market, EK isn't offering a package that is attractive right now.

[ExDubai]

....EK isn't offering a package that is attractive right now.
Not attractive for a certain expat group....

[Life Vest]

As for the constructive letter to Sir TC, my understanding is that the pilot that had written the letter had already resigned , so what was TCAS going to do, fire him, too late.

[harry the cod]

LV

That may well be true but I know categorically that at least two others have also written in, one on the B777 with around 11 years seniority and the other 380, both Captains. Each received an email from AS stating he had been forwarded their concerns from TC and these would be followed up.

Whether of course that will actually happen is debatable but there are quite a few pilots (and cabin crew) taking up the offer to provide feedback to the highest level. Why would TD (DSVP Service Delivery) take the time to offer monthly feedback seminars for cabin crew. I can assure you that whilst respectable, the content and passion during these open forums leaves little to the imagination and are quite vocal and factual. If you speak with the crew nowadays, you'll see that there has been an improvement within the last 4-6 months, particularly amongst pursers since their T&C's have been improved. This was a direct result of feedback from meetings such as this. This also includes the removal of flight reviews, again a direct result of feedback from these meetings. If you think I'm making this up, just ask them on you next flight. Their response might surprise you!

It appears that many of our 'timid Asian cabin crew' may have more balls to stand up and voice their concerns than some of our complaining pilots.....or pilot (singular) according to your source! Only 1 out of 3860.....really......?

Harry

[harry the cod]

Firstly, I don't ever remember stating all ULR's will be 48 hours so I'm not sure where you got that quote from. Secondly, I'm not attacking anybody, merely posting my opinion and what facts I know.

However, I will take you to task on those numbers you quote. 3500 left out of the 4000 hired is complete rubbish. Very few people know how many are leaving so rumours are rife amongst crew, both cabin and cockpit. Furthermore, whilst I accept that a large number are leaving, hence the meetings, your figures actually infer that only 500 crew from the recent 4000 new joiners recruited last year are still here. Well, maybe 1000 crew throughout the Company and ranks may have left during the time frame that 2000 crew have joined but those figures are 'staggeringly' different to your figures and I know which are the more accurate. As for the pursers' package, that schooling allowance made a considerable difference to their take home pay. They may have even got a pay rise this year but I don't honestly remember. Where was the pilot's this year? 3% increment?

The only truthful part of your post is the return of the flight reviews but these will be re introduced and incorporated somewhat differently to previous from what I've heard.

Scandal....abuse....barbaric.... 9 turnaround flights in a row.....5 hour waits in the clinic......intimidation....

If you say so. :hmm:

Harry

[Wh1sper]

Back to the thread, is EGT really becoming a TRE?

[glofish]

Oh god .... please no!

That would be like a Pug trying to teach a pack of wolves the hunt.:ugh:

[thatwasclose]

Was at clinic the other day . Young cabin crew came in. Clearly sick. Already had been in sick but needed an extension note from doctor. Was told 1430. It was not quite 10. I was a bit shocked. She looked awful. Thats fact.

[Desert Driver]

TWC,
That's opinion not fact. I know of numerous times in a bar when a colleague has stated, " she looks awful!" But I have thought, " not that bad, I would!"

:ok:

[Kapitanleutnant]

DD....

I just laughed tea thru my nose reading that.!!! :-)

K

[Nikita81]

"not that bad, I would!"

The bigger question is if she would do you.

[Monarch Man]

The bigger question is if she would do you.

We all live in hope, desperate hope or otherwise :}

[Oblaaspop]

Nikita, with (limited) respect, you are beginning to make yourself look rather foolish!

You originally came to this forum with well constructed and meaningful posts about your plight at the hands of vile managers in EK ground/airport services, and I think in general we all felt sorry for you and were genuinely interested to hear how you were poorly treated even though it had absolutely nothing to do with being a Professional Pilot in Dubai or any other country for that matter.

Sadly though, my opinion of you has now changed! This I hasten to add is of your own doing... How dare you come along to a Professional Pilots (of which you are neither) Forum and spout childish vitriol towards a senior airline Captain.

I have been flying for 28 years ( a similar amount of time to Harry and many others here), we have worked our arses off to pass tough courses and exams over the years, not to mention 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars of financial sacrifice to get to our positions today - we have allowed our profession and our deserved pride to degrade horribly over the years and I'm damned if I'm going to sit back and idly observe someone who has NO CLUE what our job entails slag off a colleague whether I agree with their sentiments or not.... How bloody dare you!!!!!

There was nothing in Harry's post that wasn't factual, nor was there anything rude or cutting!

Yes its a 'public' forum - mores the pity as it allows people like you who know cock all about OUR industry to spout crap they now nothing about.

You have now exposed yourself (not in a good way - sorry DD) and shown your true colours and have succeeded in making yourself look silly! I now wander whether the 'vile' managers were absolutely spot on in telling you to piss off back to Eastern Europe - I know how they feel!

Phew, thats better - time for a beer!

(sorry for the thread drift folks, but it needed to be said)

[White Knight]

Bl00dy well said Oblaaspop...

[CamelRustler]

HTC,
Go into EGHQ anytime between 0800 and 1200 and it is full of people who have been waiting or will be waiting for hours. Last time I was there at 0830 after returning from an India flight I was told 4 hours and there were 120 names on the sign in clip board. Now pilots can only go to SZR so that's a plus. Max duty then go home change then drive myself to SZR to wait again. Yea...... Also, I personally had a 5 month period last year without a single layover so 9 turns in a row sounds very realistic as that doesn't even cover 1 month.

[motley flight crue]

Agree 100% oblaaspop. Only pilots should have opinions about our jobs, lifestyle and fatigue issues.
I also felt for Nikita, now I think she's a halfwit.

[Nikita81]

Lighten up Harry's supporters. This is just another online forum. Make a joke sometimes. Laugh. There is more of life, you just don't see it from all the sand in your eyes. :)

[AlanPardew]

Lighten up Harry's supporters. This is just another online forum. Make a joke sometimes. Laugh. There is more of life, you just don't see it from all the sand in your eyes. :)

Give up. Nobody cares about your opinion or memes.

[BYMONEK]

CamelRustler

Whilst in no way supporting this daft policy of crew reporting at the clinic, perhaps you need to ask yourself why it's been instigated? I've flown with many a crew who've shown me their roster and openly stated that certain flights will be missed due 'sickness'. They're quite open about it and demonstrates what Oblaaspop alludes to in his post. There is generally a different professional attitude amongst junior cabin crew towards the job than their seniors and the majority of pilots. If they didn't chuck a sick every few months, this draconian policy wouldn't be required. Funny, the sickness rate has more than halved from what I hear since its inception.

I do, however, feel sorry for those genuinely sick so maybe your angst should be focused to those selfish sods who spoil it for everyone else.

[glofish]

This is somewhat cheap, BYMONEK.

The statement in itself might withstand, but your conclusion is flawed.
Your ire should not be directed to the 'selfish sods', nor to the 'angst-ridden' CR.

It is the responsibility of any civilised company to solve such issues by detecting and eliminating the culprits and not with collective punishment. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The latter only points to archaic and extremely incompetent leadership.

That needs to be highlighted.

[BYMONEK]

I don't disagree Glo so maybe my wording was poor. Both parties are to blame here, those for abusing it and the Company for carpet bombing all. Dealing with 22,000 crew may be the issue.

However, as each have managers, that is what the manager should do....manage their crew. Pick out the culprits and discipline appropriately. Better?

[Nikita81]

Give up. Nobody cares about your opinion or memes.

The one thing you could have figured out about me is that I never give up. :}

It is the responsibility of any civilised company

Wrong prerequisite. :)

[glofish]

BYMONEK :ok:

[Clipper400]

I'm guessing a fair proportion of "senior airline captains" will think your rebuke is equally if not more cringeworthy pop, you may consider yourself the apex of the industry, but please act the part. :}

[Desert Driver]

We all should know by now that smoke and mirrors as well as some clever promotion of opinion and occasionally facts, in this region are used to exploit the advantages and opportunities taken by those in charge. The reality is, on occasions, not always the same as the promoted image.
Most of the Saudi Paralympic team were thieves!


DD
:ok:
Actually sorry about that, but if you did smile, for a moment then that's ok.

[Emma Royds]

A bit of thread drift I know but on the topic of the walk in clinic, one of the nurses told me during my recent medical renewal that the company has had to resort to using the services of Doctors, from one of the local private clinics to staff the walk in clinic at EGHQ.

I commented to her that such an exercise can't be cheap and her response was a smile with a raised eyebrow.

[ruserious]

Yeah the company Doc's are massively overworked and under-resourced, the last two I had were downright angry at the way things had eroded, to the point that they could not match their Hippocratic and professional standards. I have a lot of sympathy for them, especially as they work in dungeon with no windows :ugh:

[thatwasclose]

DD
yes i see your point and concur sir !

[puff m'call]

As for the constructive letter to Sir TC, my understanding is that the pilot that had written the letter had already resigned , so what was TCAS going to do, fire him, too late.

No he had not reigned.