No More Waddington Air Show

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

From The Lincolnite

The Lincolnite - Lincoln news, events and jobs (http://thelincolnite.co.uk/#ath)

Duncs:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Sorts the Air Show thread out. I would guess the RAF will go for RIAT as on one and only.

[KPax]

Scampton is being assessed to replace Waddington.

[Brian W May]

I always thought that inviting Jo Public et al to 'freely roam' a site where squirrel activity is conducted was fraught with self-inflicted injury potential.

Has commonsense triumphed? One wonders . . .

[camelspyyder]

Do you not think the Scampton mention is possibly to calm down the howls of protest from Lincoln?

It would still be a security nightmare, and even more trouble to staff.

The civvy house owners on site may not be keen either?

[Planet Basher]

RIAT is fairly full up and it is doubtful it could take a significant increase in visitors. This year was a sell out including the new "extra" day.

[Ivan Rogov]

Good decision :ok:

Why not use the large showground just to the south of RAF Scampton, designed to take large numbers of visitors, fewer security issues, etc. Would display flying be possible there with suitable separation from the crowd?

[Finningley Boy]

Do you not think the Scampton mention is possibly to calm down the howls of protest from Lincoln?

It would still be a security nightmare, and even more trouble to staff.

The civvy house owners on site may not be keen either

Well I'm somewhat reassured and call me a pain in the but spotter, but I would like to trust the official public statement, and do. They do say that there are 'significant commercial, infrastructure and legal issues' to address first of all, which hopefully won't prove to be insurmountable, although it's not the most reassuring thing to say. However, one imagines that they have already investigated the matter sufficiently to conclude its worth making such an announcement, the same applies, I imagine to other factors such as; local housing and the ability to staff the event.

Then again Camelspyyder, I don't imagine you'd be keen for it to go ahead.:(

Aren't you likely to be posted somewhere else by 2017 anyway?:ok:

FB:)

[camelspyyder]

If I'm not on terminal leave by the time of the 2017 show, exceedingly long term plans will have gone very awry:ok:

[Wander00]

Barkston Heath - no big security issues, good road access, and used to host the UK Model Aircraft Championships ISTR.................

[Ivan Rogov]

Not unless the 70,000 plus visitors are all 1:72 scale :E

BH is too far away from any decent infrastructure, being near Lincoln make a lot of the logistics much easier. There is no reason why some of the participants couldn't still fly from Waddington if Scampton is full.....

providing the runway gets completed :}

[Tiger_mate]

significant commercial, infrastructure and legal issues' to address

Read that as 'Investment and restoration with taxpayers money from the defence budget'

Every single serviceman/woman recently made redundant ahead of his/her time will be delighted to read this. If Scampton has decayed as comments on this forum have suggested; then I put to you that Scampton is a Red Herring sown to lesten the immediate impact and give two years grace before the anoraks notice they have been duped.

Scampton was staffed as a sticking plaster to cover the 2015/6 air shows and rejected. Enough said. ...... and in the unlikely event that it goes ahead in 2017, it will still be a detraction from the opeational effectiveness of Waddington as the demand for 'rent a crowd' servicemen to work at such an event is massive.

[Finningley Boy]

If I'm not on terminal leave by the time of the 2017 show, exceedingly long term plans will have gone very awry:ok:


Well good luck and enjoy your 'active' retirment sir, who knows, you may have change of heart and start banging the drum for the pro-airshow crowd by then!:8:ok:

FB:)

[Melchett01]

If the SDSR turns out to be particularly painful, we could always look at holding it at Trimingham or Staxton Wold :hmm:

[Corporal Clott]

What about RAF Syerston - s0d all flying going on there at the moment!

[Finningley Boy]

What about RAF Syerston - s0d all flying going on there at the moment!


Syerston is still an intact airfield?! Crikey. Ominous past there regarding air displays mind...


If the SDSR turns out to be particularly painful, we could always look at holding it at Trimingham or Staxton Wold :hmm:


Well Melchet old satsuma, we did hold one at Boulmer in 1978! Not quite the same as holding one on a proper airfield though!

FB:)

[Red Line Entry]

Pontius,

You forget that Cosford is still ongoing. 55,000 in one day is not bad - no real reason why it couldn't expand to 2 days and fill the whole weekend.

[Melchett01]

Would you really want the Cosford air show to be any bigger? I can't imagine the local area coping and casting back in to the memory banks it's a single road access.

[Wensleydale]

I seem to recall from a year or so ago that plans were in place to build a Bomber Command museum at Scampton to supplement the new memorial at Lincoln. Plans had been drawn up for a new building linking a couple of hangars. Perhaps if you improved the airfield and moved BBMF into Scampton to join the new museum/heritage centre, together with the firefighting museum and Reds already there then you have the basis of a good venue for an airshow. Just a thought?

[Pontius Navigator]

Apart from the heavies, BBMF doesn't have its own aircrew.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Apart from the two chiefys I didn't think the BBMF had it's own groundcrew either.

Wensleydale, Is that like the Bomber Command museum plans that were "almost set in concrete" for Bicester?

[Tiger_mate]

Colocate both RAF Museums centrally at Scampton and let them organise their own flying display weekend. Now that the future of RAF Cosford has been ringfenced, the aspiration of the RAFM to take the whole airfield is a none starter. (Unless flightline training is to become a 'sim').

The Cold War museum is not a permanent structure and could be moved. The estate at Hendon would provide a small fortune if sold. Yes it would be an expensive logistical nightmare, but it has much merit long term.

National Lottery and English Heritage money could be bid for. RAF units within Scampton either move or become a camp within a camp in the manner that Eastern Radar was to Watton or QinetiQ is to Boscombe.

[Wensleydale]

RAF Museum to help create Dambusters centre - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-26342290)


The plans for Scampton?

[Pontius Navigator]

BBMF also has a large cadre of keen and enthusiastic vet volunteers in the visitors centre. No doubt new guides could be recruited and trained at Scampton but Coningsby has a large local catchment area for guides where Scampton probably does not.

[skua]

By the same token, Scampton has a much smaller potential customer base - within reasonable driving time - for a museum than does Cosford.

[Wensleydale]

...although Lincolnshire has a huge aviation tourism industry with many Heritage Centres coordinated by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire on behalf of Lincolnshire County Council. This brings a good few million pounds into the Lincs local economy. The increasing of Scampton's existing Heritage Centre into a central museum close to Lincoln is a further attempt by the Council to increase this tourism - as evidenced by the new Bomber Command Memorial and visitor centre which opens (for the memorial at least) next month. BBMF visitor centre is already a partner in AHL and by moving to Scampton it puts all the display assets under one roof so to speak combined with a larger aviation museum. Drawing visitors to here will undoubtedly increase the footfall to the other smaller heritage centres that already exist. It makes sense.

[The Oberon]

Scampton ? I hope not, I may be being a bit NIMBYist here but as a Scampton village dweller, it's bad enough when they have a families day. The problem is that there are far too many easily accessed "naughty areas" foot paths and bridleways etc. especially on the N and W sides. This years families day saw the west side fence bridleway full of cars, vans and picnics, you name it. In the event of a full blown airshow it would be horrendous.


As for the showground, the available spectator space is decreasing every time I look at it, buildings going up all over the place, the latest being student accommodation.

[bobward]

Nobody has mentioned Cottesmore as yet. This was used twice in the early 2000's to host IAT when Fairford was being rebuilt.

I was going to suggest Wittering, but then they don't have ATC coverage at weekends do they?

[camelspyyder]

BBMF Heavies full time? Really?

I thought BBMF was a secondary duty for Cranwell, Waddo aircrews.

Many from 8, 45 & 55 Sqn were Lanc /Dak pilots at the weekend, the Air Eng's were from 8 or 55 and the loadies from 55 then 45.

[camelspyyder]

Nobody has mentioned Cottesmore as yet. This was used twice in the early 2000's to host IAT when Fairford was being rebuilt.

I was going to suggest Wittering, but then they don't have ATC coverage at weekends do they?

I think polite enquiries about returning some aviation to Kendrew Barracks have already been rebuffed by the Army.

I expect that site is going to look like Leconfield / Driffield eventually.

[EESDL]

Looks like Fenton had better get its act sorted?
atleast the 'Feeder' is now open again

[Pontius Navigator]

CS, of course. I think OC may be established. I know when I was there a nav was also an Ops O and a pilot was posted in as an Ops O and SOpsO was also Lanc captain. Then of course the telephone answering service took over.

[PICKS135]

The airfield at Leuchars managed to have an airshow for a good few years.
Pongoes might like to make it a purple show too ;)

[typerated]

Considering that the RAF do support a lot of airshows and that RIAT is the biggest military show in the world, I wonder if an "airshow" on home turf is what is needed?


If I was the powers that be I'd be trying to maximise PR and recruitment without all the faff of having a full blown airshow.


Just a thought but how would "open day" during the week at Coningsby (and maybe Lossie). Free to school buses - punters can pay! have a small static and trade displayes aimed at recruitment. Schdule a full days flying, orgainse a few PDs and airfield attacks - during lunch time maybe have Typhoon, BBMF and Arrows displays - i'e somthing moving all the day but few "displays". Much more of a "this is us at work" rather an an airshow - so no paying for civiie displays or need to get foreign airforces to arrive.

[Stitchbitch]

PN CS, OC full time, OpsO full time, FP from Conz, Heavies from either Cranditz/BZN/BD/Waddo during my time. All :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Typerated, in theory, fine. In practise, less so.

In 1969, 11Gp did their annual BoB display. We displayed at Finningley, Coltishall and Gaydon amongst others. The whole flying programme was organised down to routing and timing at 11Gp.

From a military perspective it served to commemorate the battle but it was Labour intensive.

From a civilian perspective the catchment area was relatively small, traffic more manageable you got to see both the air show and th a RAF at home.

Smaller crowds reduced the air show infrastructure needs, tentage from Service sources, and toilet facilities minimal.

Today, with H&S, public perceptions are higher, misappropriation of Servivce equipment and supplies is almost impossibly, and there are two others things missing:

Far fewer types
Far fewer airfields

[Tiger_mate]

misappropriation of Service equipment and supplies

As one who until a year ago managed an airshow inventory; I can tell you with absolute certainty that the 'air show' paid for all consumables including office supplies and postage. At MoD rates, a visit to Staples or Smiths proved beneficial on occasion. The only MoD liability fell on wear and tear of items held lng term on inventory and also used on numerous stations events / open days / mess functions / Royal visits etc etc rather then the exclusive use of the airshow.

Accomodation was the exclusive domain of visiting military units and all civilians were accomodated in university accomdation which is standard pratice with UK military airshows - or was!

[BEagle]

Ah yes, the wonderful 'visiting aircrew' accommodation strategy....

At St. Athan, they tried to put us up in a squalid hotel in Barry, the other occupants being youth offenders.....we declined the kind offer!

At Coningsby, they wanted the aircrew to stay at Binbrook and the groundcrew to stay at Waddington.....we declined the kind offer! "Take bloody steps out, we're bloody going!", was the captain's bluff comment. The solution was the Petwood Hotel in Woodhall Spa, which was much nicer than a 45 min journey in a 32-seat coach!

At Finningley, they put us up in an hotel in Doncaster, but we then found out that they hadn't provided any evening meal for the groundcrew and all that had been provided for the aircrew were the usual mini pork pies etc. at a welcoming barrel. After 'some robust debate', the organiser agreed to pay for proper catering within normal guidelines and the lads had some decent scoff before sampling the bright lights of Doncaster.

I later discovered that visiting aircrew / groundcrew T&S was but a minute part of the overall cost; we were quite prepared to give up our weekend to entertain the tax payers, but did at least expect proper accommodation and catering.

[romeo bravo]

Camelspyyder - depends what type of avaition you are talking about :oh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Tiger, I was talking years ago when the shows were small scale. No, even at Coningsby :), almost 30 years ago, most things were covered by the air show. One thing that wasn't was distribution of the air show posters. Holding officer, given a bundle of posters and MT spent two days touring Lincolnshire.

USAF MAC crew accommodated in the mess but I don't think any charges for accommodation were raised against the air show.

[FAStoat]

Years ago when Displaying at Leeming, they tried to put us up in the Sprogs Studes Mess Block,so we declined and upped anchor and sailed at best speed to Mike Cairns's Hospitality in the Darlington Flying Club,where great ribaldry was had by all.One wag poured fertilliser in a two word phrase or saying on the grass in front of their Officers Mess,that would have shown up from the windows the following year!!Good old Mike!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

One year we were forward based at Benson for Farnborough. On the Friday we had our summer ball at Waddo.

The skipper demanded Comms Sqn provide transport there and back. Initially this was refused. He pointed out that we had our own aircraft and would fly back anyway but we would not display at Farnborough on Saturday as we could not afford the hours.

We had two Bassets on Friday and a Pembroke back on Saturday.

[Finningley Boy]

Just going over the Security implications at Waddington once again, is this only a sudden realization and not just an opportunity afforded by the runway re-work to move toward a new less visible, low key RAF? Through the last four decades and more, air bases with all kinds of sensitivity opened their gates to the general public, including ones with Nuclear weapons storage? Islamic terrorism has been a constant threat for years. Before that, the IRA were perhaps a more serious physical threat to security.

I can understand the concerns about the sensitive nature over Reaper operations, but wouldn't expect the location of the control room to be sign posted on base? Indeed, I'd expect it to be a mystery wrapped in a puzzle inside an enigma... or what it was that Churchill said about the USSR.:}

FB:)

[Tiger_mate]

GAI2022 is the MoD policy on events and airshows. It was due renewal in Oct 2011 and earlier this year when last I looked, it still had not been renewed. The reason was because there was no appetite by the AFBSC to participate in airshows which are perceived as a financial burden even though Cosford and Waddington operated in profit and Leuchars benefited from a generous contribution from the Scottish Office.

The writing was on the wall for airshows, and the closure of Leuchars played perfectly into their hands. There was no chance of an RAF sponsored air show taking over from Leuchars. Mixed signals were spouted after Waddngton had been suspended. For a while it appeared that alternatives had been considered and dismissed including Scampton. The terminal outlook was muddied by comments that an alternative was still under review. I go back to the 2011 GAI which after four years remained 'under review'.

The RAF are in partnership with RIAT to celebrate the RAF Centenary. RAFAT must be under threat as the Hawk T1 reaches end of life, and my guess is that 2018 will be the final year. The future for other events and teams is anyones guess. Personnel and opinions go through cycles of change but for sure the last few years have seen an appetite to erase air show commitment. MAA/CAA regulations may yet see some events untenable. The Risks associated with Aviation Normal Operating Hazards are no longer acceptable. Offshore displays which are perceived as the least dangerous have many associated hazards, notably birdstrikes risk and pleasure craft venturing into the safety area. The precedent was set when a Red Arrow hit a yacht mast.

[Wander00]

How long before someone decides that going to war is far to dangerous and we just give in - Corbyn or not.

[Finningley Boy]

Tiger Mate,

I certainly get the impression that airshows are largely out of favour at the moment and I feel it may be more of a response to years of defence cuts harvesting RAF assets. When you refer to the Yacht mast, are you referring to the one that was hit during a display over Brighton all the way back in 1980?

I do recall that one.

FB:)

[Fortissimo]

FB,

You may find that 'security' includes the security of assets that are air side of the crowd line, ie on the other side of the airfield. They are at more risk should anyone drop an aircraft during a display and the Shoreham experience may have put that into sharper focus for people.

[Lima Juliet]

Re: over sea displays. Yacht masts. Wasn't it Dartmouth? Anyway, how low do you have to fly to hit a yacht mast? Is that height reallly necessary? For me, that statement raises more questions than answers.

Yes, the birds might be a risk but raise the display a little and have a BCU plan and that should help mitigate that risk. However, the biggest risk is when there is a poor horizon, making 'the goldfish bowl' effect. However, this can also be managed with raising display heights.

I think the appettite for Air Shows, especially the smaller ones on MoD sites, was down to imsurance. The MoD don't tend to insure and so a big accident like the tragedy at Shoreham will cost the MoD a lot of money and a big loss of reputation - so in balance someone has probably decided it isn't worth it (rightly or wrongly).

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Not sure about insurance. We certainly demanded civilian participants were insured. Pleuvius was a difficult one, sometimes we took a risk.

Operational risk, ie war, was also a risk that Waddington met with its T&Cs and a no refund policy. In the event they did refund.

I wonder who picked up the bill for foreign military crashes?

[Tiger_mate]

RAF Events, JHC and RNHF/RN all charge a display fee and a separate insurance charge.

The RAF events get NO discount for RAF displays.

The Army and Navy get 50% discount for RAF displays!

The insurance costs are attached to individual display aircraft/team. The RAF 'public' events are insured through a civilian broker at air show expense. This has to include lastminute.com cancellation costs, so you can imagine what sort of premiums are involved.

Insurance for every aircraft is on the FDD (Flying Display Director) Check-list of mandatory ticks in the box; along with DA, License, Medical etc.

[Simplythebeast]

can see Church Fenton doing well out of this situation if traffic management can be sorted, perhaps creating park and ride facilities and making use of a shuttle service to Church Fenton station/ compined with rail shuttle to Leeds/York.
Lots of potential.

[Finningley Boy]

You may find that 'security' includes the security of assets that are air side of the crowd line, ie on the other side of the airfield. They are at more risk should anyone drop an aircraft during a display and the Shoreham experience may have put that into sharper focus for people.

Fostissimo,

I was about to say of course, but why has it taken to now to become concerned about this? Its been an ever present problem from the start of airshows going back to 1920 and the Hendon Air Pageant. However, I think Leon's answered the question regarding what appears to be an insurance problem.. That's what kills off every pursuit with the slightest hint of danger in the end.:{

FB:)

[Pontius Navigator]

I know OC Ops at Cottesmore had kittens when the Belgian Starfighter did touch and go rolls down the runway. He was more concerned with the possibility of runway Black than the risk to three nuclear armed aircraft on QRA.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fostissimo,

I was about to say of course, but why has it taken to now to become concerned about this? Its been an ever present problem from the start of airshows going back to 1920 and the Hendon Air Pageant. However, I think Leon's answered the question regarding what appears to be an insurance problem.. That's what kills off every pursuit with the slightest hint of danger in the end.:{

FB:)
And in answer to your question, a catastrophic crash at Hendon would have destroyed a tiny proportion of the RAF and anyway, new aircraft would be introduced tomorrow anyway.

Today a similar crash could knock out the entire AEW force, or Sentinel, or both, with replacements due a generation away.

Eggs, baskets, one-off, doors, bolted, stables etc.

[Ivan Rogov]

Perhaps there is an opportunity for a large UK commercial/civilian run airshow at a suitably located (for punters and display safety) ex Mil airfield. With a few serious investors and sponsors it might turn a decent profit (i.e: Incentive to do it and make it successful). I assume the Mil ones are restricted in their ability to make money for many reasons.

Perhaps they could arrange more than one per year (North and South, etc.), now if only there were a group of people that used to do this every year who are now probably twiddling their thumbs? :E

[Pontius Navigator]

RIAT would cover the South. Where would you go North?

Infrastructure is crucial as is catchment. However would there be any profit in a blue sky display, at least until the idea catches on and the locals take to the idea of a day out.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Church Fenton did alright. However, that may be due to something triangular doing it's last public business...

[Tiger_mate]

For any new event, the need for a robust and efficient traffic management plan is essential. From my experience; I would say that any donor airfield needs to be no more than 5 miles from the major trunk roads, as in A Class duel carriageway or motorway. Ideally with a railhead nearby within walking distance. The access roads to the airfield need to be numerous to accomodate through traffic (people who arrive in taxis or dropped off by family) and also VIP/Blue light routing.

Leuchars operated a park & ride, and I cannot say how efficient it was.

Add to this a decent length runway and lots of hardstanding, and the shoping list starts to become claustrophobic. Many FJ require RHAG and/or Barrier to operate from and if not available; enlisting a second operating airfield becomes very expensive.

There are not many airfields in the north of england which tick all the boxes. Wittering could, but like Cottesmore, is not really far enough north to be RIAT(North). There will be no desire from any council to improve highways and byways for a once a year airshow. (Thinking of Leemng) Then when you go too far north, the footfall becomes insignificant. It is a difficult business case to satisfy and an easy one to let drop in 2017.

[iansmith]

From a traffic point of view Church Fenton was a total disaster. Had it not been for an enterprising person in a 4x4 trialing an alternate route from the back of the car park I would have been stuck there for ~3 hours. Many were turned away as the carpark was full. I paid for my ticket but the mistake was that someone made the decision to allow payment on the gate, which caused the hordes to descend. There were queues in excess of an hour for toilets, similar for the food which also ran out. The organisers didn't make all the money they should have either as people from the car park were being routed inside the boundary hedge, straight onto the airfield. My ticket was never checked and huge numbers got in for free (most of those around me did).
However, I will go again if they stick to advanced tickets only as most other displays now do.

I can understand the decision as I suspect that they were low in numbers in the preceding week and maybe they were advised to accommodate people rather than have free-loaders clogging up the roads and hedgerows.

So, next time:

1. Advanced tickets only
2. Probably do it over 2 days
3. Establish good park and rides
4. Make well publicised use of the nearby railway (I had intended to use it but could not find out any details of extra trains, stops etc.)
5. Clearway for the buses and VIP ticket holders

It has the potential to be a good venue (again)

[Finningley Boy]

And in answer to your question, a catastrophic crash at Hendon would have destroyed a tiny proportion of the RAF and anyway, new aircraft would be introduced tomorrow anyway.

Today a similar crash could knock out the entire AEW force, or Sentinel, or both, with replacements due a generation away.

Eggs, baskets, one-off, doors, bolted, stables etc.

Ah yes of course, but the reference to Hendon was to highlight just how long the RAF have been holding airshows, E3Ds have been parked on dispersal at Waddington at every show since 1995 and they've now realised the danger? Before that, Vulcans and a Nuclear Bomb dump just the other side of the road. By the way, the RAF IN 1920 had most of its assets based overseas and had been whittled down from about 180 squadrons at the end of the Great War to about 27 in 1920. I haven't got the exact figures to hand but I always take an interest in how history often tells a different story when examined in detail compared with the wider understanding.

I'm sure I've mentioned this somewhere here before, in 1965 on Battle of Britain at home day, 45 Lightnings took part in the flying alone, including; six formation display teams, five solo aerobatics pilots and a diamond nine flypast formation. This covered 12 locations, however, the entire lot were drawn from just five squadrons and the OCU. There was one more squadron unaffected, 56, which had just returned from an overseas deployment and offered a 4-ship to a station nearby which was holding a display. The only one which didn't already have a formation display by Lightnings was St Mawgan, which would require an overnight deployment and they needed to be at Wattisham for the Sunday flypast, requiring 10 aircraft, the next morning then preparation for an ADEX in Malta, therefore they declined.

Its a different mindset today, and not just where airshows are concerned.

FB:)

PS: 19 and 92 were on the point of deploying permanently to Germany but still took part.

[camelspyyder]

Have the RAF ever stated that a possible accident was the reason for not resuming the Waddington show? I'm pretty sure security was the major concern since the base is such a plum target - probably the security of the crowd as much as the base itself being the issue.

[Finningley Boy]

RIAT would cover the South. Where would you go North?

Infrastructure is crucial as is catchment. However would there be any profit in a blue sky display, at least until the idea catches on and the locals take to the idea of a day out.

LEUCHARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!:ok:

By the way Pontius, that Starfighter episode wouldn't have been in 1965 would it?

FB:)

[Tiger_mate]

Carlisle has potential. 6036' Runway and only 6 miles from the M6.

[Pontius Navigator]

FB, yes, the year Finningley didn't host it.

It was a real air show, September, crap weather, soggy ground, proper green tents and marquees on the display line and no fun fairs.

I think the Starfighter and QRA mixed scared the bejesus out of the brass. Air side of course was a bomb dump full of nukes.

Mind you, Waddo was not much better at least until recently with its conventional bomb dump. Is Wittering any better now?