777 on fire

[claraball]

777 with cargo/cabin fire. How would you handle the high speed approach to get on the ground ASAP? Assuming ILS. 350 KIAS to a 12 mile final at 2000' then idle, gear down, flaps full? Any experienced guys feedback is appreciated.

[vilas]

On any aircraft first speed brakes, when below LG extend speed gear down, configure to allowable flap setting with speed brakes then speed brake in and all the way to landing configuration.

[ACMS]

Balls to the wall, as long as you touchdown in the zone below 160 odd kts with at least Flap 15 or more out the rest doesn't matter. Unless it's a really short runway, then you might need to be a little slower but the mighty triple stops pretty quick anyway.

Land, stop and Evac ASAP.

[claraball]

Thanks for that but I'm looking for a specific target. Miles to touchdown and altitude. Yes 350 knots until speed brake, gear, flaps straight to 30 and let load relief do it's thing. One does want to avoid going off the other end or a go around. Any sim instructors out there with a good rule of thumb?

[vilas]

This is not a regular SIM exercise so I don't think any one can give you what you asked for. But no altitude distance is required. Just fly level and do as I said and you should get to around 210/220kts at FAF with whatever flap you get but get some flap and you should be able to configure to full by 500ft. No need to land with anything less. In level flight deceleration with full flap/GD should be 20kt./nm and on GS it could be between 10 and 15kts/nm.

[misd-agin]

Hmmm, I'm not sure you can get slowed enough from 350 kts at 12 nm. If you can't get the flaps down to a normal speed what's your expected runway requirements???? It will be very tight.


I've done 340kts (?) to 13nm and the answer was to CLIMB! The plane slows down faster going uphill which allows you to get the drag out sooner. Full speed brakes, gear as fast as allowed, and flaps at the maximum speeds. You'll end up above GS and have an aimpoint short of the runway, at idle power, to regain a normal approach path, and might have speedbrakes deployed below 1000'. You'll be at idle until very short final. So you end up doing a vertical S around the GS, below, above, then an S curve('banana' approach) to re-intercept just prior to the 100'.


Here's some basic stuff to consider -


1. watch Top Gun. Understand the concept of 'do that pilot sh*t Maverick'.
2. do you know your a/c's runway requirements at MTOW or MLW?
3. do you understand how #2 is computed? example given below
4. all jets need approx. 70nm/9 minutes from max certified altitude to stopping on a runway. Typical cruise is slightly lower so 65nm/8 minutes might work. It requires emergency descent and then 320/15nm/2000', or a slightly faster/closer, but still at 2000', rapid configuration while climbing to slightly above GS, and then an unstablized approach. This is what #1 was about.
5. a jet's fastest TAS is in the mid 20's typically. Basically where maximum mach/airspeed crossover is. Add in winds and the decision to climb, or descend, to make the fastest GS might be a factor.




Runway requirement of 10,000' (eg heavy jet at takeoff weight returning to land). The actual distance would be 6000' x 1.67 = 10,020'. Or the actual runway distance used, including a 1000' air distance, will be 60%(.6) of the required distance. Add another pad (1000'?) and you have distance you can use in a dire emergency. That's where knowing #2 helps - you can immediately figure out how short a runway you can accept in serious event.


So what's the math saying? You can land in shorter runways than the 'required' distance in an emergency. Just realize it's a maximum performance effort and a bounce adds air distance and delays the de-acceleration effort.


In training we typically land a 757/767/777, slightly lighter than max landing weight, on a 2887' runway (short runway at KSNA). If you try and land it anything close to normal you go off the far end. It requires flaring short of the runway, idle short of the runway, and touching down as the threshold passes below you.


It's a good training event. Enjoy.

[JammedStab]

The plane slows down faster going uphill which allows you to get the drag out sooner. Full speed brakes, gear as fast as allowed, and flaps at the maximum speeds.

Perhaps gear down at faster than allowed. After all, you are on fire. Flaps above max speed is different of course due to protective features.

[misd-agin]

Jammed - true. If you're returning the airplane to the tax payers you can refer to #1 - "do that pilot sh*t". But if you end up with damaged gear/brake lines, and need substantial, or perhaps maximum energy, braking action it's a difficult call.

[stilton]

Any procedure that invokes studying Top Gun works for me :p

[Mr Good Cat]

Check out Quentin Tarantino's interpretation of what Top Gun represents and you might feel differently :E:ok:;)

[Mr Good Cat]

Worth a watch :ok:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/samir/the-real-meaning-of-the-movie-top-gun-according-to#.itRL4xd33

[FullWings]

777 with cargo/cabin fire. How would you handle the high speed approach to get on the ground ASAP?
I think the major variable in a uncontrolled cargo/cabin fire is not how fast you fly the latter stages of the approach but how far from a runway you are when you first diagnose the issue. Coming in with so much energy that a runway excursion is a serious possibility if you don’t throw the approach away seems counter productive.

The 777 is a long range aircraft much used on EROPS over sparsely populated and/or inhospitable environments. It is most likely that you’ll be in a position where serious consideration will have to be given to an off-airport landing or ditching (“controlled crash”).

If you do decide to go for an airport vs. putting it down on whatever’s underneath, the major attractions are a) the chance of coming to a halt on a paved surface without damaging the airframe and generating additional problems plus b) having fire/emergency services that are specifically equipped and trained to deal with aircraft.

That’s not to say a highly expeditious approach is a bad thing but if puts you in a situation where you’re on fire and have a choice of a high-speed overrun into ugly terrain or spending quite a few more precious minutes having another go, then you’d have been better off coming in a bit slower and making sure of it.

If you really want some numbers for a standard ILS, I wouldn’t like to have a GS > 200kts going through 1,000RA. Bear in mind that that it is likely you will be over MLW, possibly by a long way, so it’ll be more difficult to slow down than normal. As you’re going for the nearest bit of tarmac, there may be an adverse wind component as well. At normal landing weights you can lose about 20kts per mile with speedbrake in level flight, more with taking the gear early. If you did what you do normally only 1,000’ lower, it would likely be a good compromise...

[misd-agin]

"The 777 is a long range aircraft much used on EROPS over sparsely populated and/or inhospitable environments. It is most likely that you’ll be in a position where serious consideration will have to be given to an off-airport landing or ditching (“controlled crash”)."



See the Cathay passenger video about the fumes(smoke?) in the cabin that diverted into Shemyak(sp?)? After what might have been a cargo fire warning? Think that gets the crews attention, and thought processes, while conducting N. Pacific, or any ETOPS, operations?

It's hard to explain to your spouse, or even over land only pilots, the huge difference between ETOPS and US/Europe continental flying.

It's like the difference between single engine vs two engine fighter ocean drags. Anyone choose the single engine?? Anyone choose an ETOPS emergency over an over land emergency?

[flyhardmo]

325kts 3000' till 10nm. Wind the spd back and Chop the power, full spd brakes going down the ILS or any 3deg profile. At 270kts gear down, full flap. Load relief takes care of the flaps and any extra workload. Should be at a reasonable speed fully configured by 300'-400'.

However ACMS is spot on with 160kts and Flap 15 should get you in to most places depending on weight.

[misd-agin]

3000' at 10nm is descending. The plane slows faster while level or climbing which allows you to have more KIAS longer which equates to a shorter flight time.

[woodvale]

I used to teach this specific excercise until I retired last year. Our sims would reposition to 12NM, 2000ft and obviously I could set VMO.

I suggested A/T out initially to avoid unwanted thrust inputs and initially avoid the need to use the speed bug.
The key is in the handling, avoiding any descent until gear and some flap achieved.

So at your gate:
1. Thrust idle and speedbrakes out
2. Level or slight climb.
3. U/C down on limit.
4. Flaps to 30 when passing flap 1 speed, let load relief do the job.
5. If you have an ILS, use it and plan an autoland. So intercept the glide.
6. Set speed bug to F30 +5 and re-engage A/T.
7. Speed brake in as flags pass 20 to avoid warnings.
8. Established, Engage AP for autoland.
If done well you will be fully established by 5 NM.

This is how I would demo it but for me the gate would have been 10NM 50 -80 tons above MLWt and a bit closer if light.

As a sim instructor you can demo this easily standing behind just by commanding the crew to select services. With the quick reposition to 12 NM / 2000ft the whole thing can then be practiced by both pilots in a few minutes.

Probably the most important item though is that to get to your gate, in a smoke situation, one pilot must exclusively fly with the other running the ECL without being monitored, otherwise you run out of time to get the important bits of the Smoke checklist done, even from cruise level at 80 NMish
Try to get back together below 10000 and just run the normal ECL checks, they will pick up the important things you have missed.
If there are any slight errors in the above, apologies I retired 18 months ago.

This really is a crew excercise but not in the normal sense, you must know when to work on your own and when what your colleague is doing is critical and he/she needs your support.

I do know of one 747 cargo outfit who practiced this every sim check, their gate was 10NM / 2000ft / VMO. I found out that the 777 is just the same, 200 through to 300ER.

Hope this helps.

[claraball]

Thanks Woodvale. Exactly what I asked for.