Who actualy wants a Waddington Airshow to return?

[Four Types]

A recent post by a local MP in a local newspaper ranted on about the 'Wonderful Waddington Airshow' and how he was hoping for it's return. I wrote to him on behalf of all those who actually 'work' the Airshow in these times of austerity - no money for vital equipment, overstretched and over committed.


So let's start a debate...who actually wants the Waddo Airshow to return? But before you offer an opinion, consider yourself eligible for a week out of your own life (leave ban included) to act as a glorified Butlins Redcoat to the great unwashed.


Discuss..........(incoming!!)

[Willard Whyte]

Were I still in, I would 'vote' no for the very reasons you mention. It wouldn't have been so bad at another time of year, but it always occurred around the time of 3 family birthdays, not to mention the height of the British motorsport calendar (Goodwood or British GP).

[Courtney Mil]

Did you get a reply, 4T?

[Rhino power]

Given that it was one of the few opportunities left in the UK, for the 'great unwashed' and enthusiasts alike, to actually see what's left of the RAF, FAA and the Army (plus our allies of course), apart from when they appear in the news during the latest defence cuts announcement, then yes, I would love to see it return...

-RP

[Pontius Navigator]

And when I asked in the MSW coffee bar - Air show or £20 in the charity bucket - no contest.

The worst thing about modern air shows is charity, all the tat stalls, beer tents, kiddies fun fair. It isn't about aircraft at all.

I remember Hooton Park, my first BoB and less than 1000 there with the RAuxAF guys cobbling a show together on the fly.

Finningley with the officers' enclosure full of officers from the other stations enjoying the "privacy".

Cottesmore, 66, torrential rain and a gale, green marquees on the display line and no side shows.

Colt, 68 or 69, again grotty weather, everyone did a flat display and I reckon less than 1500 crowd.

[Pure Pursuit]

Four Types,

I recently visited the HoP and spent a few hours over a few beers with the local MP for Waddo. I had to admire his enthusiasm for the return of the airshow. He also showed a good level of understanding of how busy the station is (despite many assumptions at other units!) and how much of a burden the show places on serving personnel. As a result, I think he has one eye on Scampton as a potential, although I can't see how that unit could cope with the same level of airshow. It ain't big enough!! Waddo personnel would end up augmenting it too.

A bigger concern must be the risk management of having over 100000 people wondering around an ISTAR unit that is home to RJ and other very sensitive assets; a security nightmare.

Sadly, I think the airshow is long gone and I don't think the majority of folk working at Waddo will miss it!

[Yozzer]

These are the ingredients required for a major disaster:

Take one UK Drone (strike) HQ.
Insert just one ISS geezer thinly disguised as a Middle eastern refugee.
Add 50,000+ innocent bystanders.
Add a sprinkle of revenge doctrine.

Thereafter it is just a matter of timing.

[Pure Pursuit]

I appreciate that the food is crap these days however, let's not label ISS as terrorists! ;-)

[melmothtw]

Did attending air shows as kids not inspire you to join up? I mean, before you grew up and became all jaded and all.

Surely that's the point of them - to inspire the next generation, no? If that doesn't inspire you, then perhaps it's time to hang up your chocks if you haven't already.

[Pontius Navigator]

Melmothtw, indeed, but my route was uncles in RAF, visited Hooton Park, CCF(RAF), air experience flights in a Dakota and the Met Hastings with lunch in the Officers' Mess at Siloth, camps at Topcliffe, Manby, and Upwood.

Air shows played no part in my indoctrination and with one show at Waddo just how much effect will that hav

[camelspyyder]

The Service that let Air Cadets parade in its stead in London today is surely too busy to run an airshow.

[downsizer]

Guys, you are forgetting the two main reasons UK Armed Forces exist.

1. Provide jobs for UK industry.
2. Provide Open Days/Airshows for spotters.

[Melchett01]

You mean the Air Cadets aren't part of the Reserves plan for FF2020???

[Wensleydale]

One of the Fb pages for Waddington Spotters is full of moaning about the lack of an air show and constant questions of when the runway will re-open again (plus about 50 shots per day of the damn Vulcan). I once put my view over (similar to 4 Types) that air shows didn't just happen and most of Waddington would be happy to see the back of it for a while. A few weeks later and I am still in lock down with radiation levels rising . These guys are RABID! Cancel at your peril!!!!

[Avtur]

Having worked the Waddington Air Show every year from 1996 to 2008, I can confirm that it was a complete pain in the a$$ for the station personnel: It was more than a weekend of work (with set-up and break-down) that was executed by a community who were regularly deployed away from home for extended periods. A leave ban was always in place to maximise the pain and inconvenience at a time when people were looking to go on leave.

I completely get the "good" that such shows do in terms of PR and fundraising, but the level of effort required to stage such an event outweighed the benefits (IMHO). The traffic burden on the surrounding area, where the road infrastructure is lacking at the best of times, was also intolerable.

Given the sensitivity of the base, and particularly with the controversy surrounding RPAS, Waddington is probably not the best place to have several hundred thousand people wondering around.

My vote would be to bin it at Waddington and use RIAT to inspire/impress.

[glad rag]

I'm with Avtur.

[smujsmith]

Melmothw #9,

Curiously, my annual attendance at our nearest B of B display (RAF Gaydon, home of No2 Air Navigation School) had no attraction to me to join the Royal Air Force. Neither did my membership of the local Air Training Corps Squadron. Perhaps because of my enthusiasm for music. My disappointment at having to wait 12 months to enter training with the Royal Marines Band was interrupted by the next door RAF recruiting office. I walked in hoping they needed a trombonist, I became their latest Halton airframe fitter apprentice. Waddington, in its day was a great display day, I well remember being part of the static display crew (only the AGE) with XV210 many years ago. Our Air Force is a beast of a different time now. No spare money for such fripperies, and perhaps as already stated, Waddington is not a sensible location for public access. Perhaps the future is Fairford as the primary (or only) military display in Britain, and Waddington, Abingdon et al become a distant memory.

Smudge :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

It looks like the Armed Forces charities might want it (apologies for the loop diagram in the middle of the article):

Armed Forces charities face funding shortfall as Shoreham disaster puts air shows under threat - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11859665/Armed-Forces-charities-face-funding-shortfall-as-Shoreham-disaster-puts-air-shows-under-threat.html)

[BEagle]

61 years ago, even a small flying training station managed a flying display programme which included:

- Formation aerobatics by 2 different RAF teams, one with Meteors, one with Vampires.
- Solo aerobatics by 5 different RAF aircraft types.
- A sonic boom from an RAF Sabre.
- A mock airfield attack by Vampires against RAF Regiment Bofors guns.
Plus the usual speed / height judging, demo flights of manufacturers' aircraft, pleasure flights and a helicopter air sea rescue demo.

The static display included a Vampire FB5, Vampire T11, Venom NF3, Prentice, Meteor T7, Meteor NF11, Lincoln, Canberra, Varsity, Provost, Harvard, Balliol, Chipmunk, Anson, Tempest, Sabre, Wyvern and Dragonfly.

It even included a performance by the RAF Boscombe Down station band!

There was a children's playground - and a disclaimer on the programme stating that visitors entering the station did so at their own risk. No liability would be accepted by the Air Ministry for any injury, damage or loss. Paranoia of the day also asked people not to take photographs!

Quite what could one expect to see at Waddington these days? Fat spotters with camouflaged waistcoats covered in tat clutching little aluminium stepladders and expensive cameras all vying for yet another photograph of the one or two RAF aircraft participating?

[Yozzer]

The decision was made two years ago that 'RAF 100' pron "RAFF one hundred!!" would be held by RIAT. I don't know if it a contractual obligation or a memorandum of understanding, but either way, that is the official way ahead. As is a show of farce at village fetes.

I suspect that after recent tragic events and the draconian legislation by the CAA; air displays as was will never be the same again. Presumption based upon 'temporary restrictions' to reduce risk not being superseded by anything that could be seen to increase risk. ie a relaxation of recent regulations. If I was fortunate enough to own one of the 14 airworthy Hunters in the UK; I would be mightily Peed off.

I suspect that the MAA are poised with pen ready to amend RA2335.

[KPax]

With Leuchars gone, Cosford is the only RAF Airshow left, I am not a plane spotter but it would be nice if the RAF could put one airshow on that includes a runway for static. Only problem is where would it be.

[camelspyyder]

A glance at Britishairshows.com shows 18 planned events between now and the end of the year.

Surely that's plenty for the UK Spotter population to enjoy, without taking the risk of opening up a major operational military base to all and sundry.

On security grounds alone, I would vote for binning Cosford and Yeovilton next year too.

[Tourist]

Grumpy old bunch of loafers.

Waddington is hardly the hardest working station.

In fact, it is the least operationally focused airbase I have ever had the misfortune to operate from.

It is, however, a good airshow.

[camelspyyder]

Lol.

Apart from the fact that all 5 flying squadrons are deployed on ops right now, I could agree with that last post.

[Four Types]

Yes Courtney Mil I did get a reply. A polite 'I hear what you say...' plus a note that he is not my actual MP! I knew that, I was just trying to let him have my opinion.

[Four Types]

No I was not inspired by an airshow. No family connection with the RAF apart from an uncle who did National Service in the 50s. I actually joined having read an advert in the newspaper!!!


If you want to inspire someone then let a civvy field take it on and invite any passing RAF Aircraft (I am sure one of the three remaining may make it!)

[Pure Pursuit]

Grumpy old bunch of loafers.

Waddington is hardly the hardest working station.

In fact, it is the least operationally focused airbase I have ever had the misfortune to operate from.

It is, however, a good airshow.

Tourist,

Perhaps you mistook Scampton for Waddington and landed there in error...?

Waddington is at absolute max chat at the moment and has been for quite a few years.

[Toadstool]

Originally Posted by Tourist View Post
Grumpy old bunch of loafers.

Waddington is hardly the hardest working station.

In fact, it is the least operationally focused airbase I have ever had the misfortune to operate from.

It is, however, a good airshow.

It just goes to show how out of touch some people are, even serving and ex military.

[rlsbutler]

Lyme Regis Lifeboat week has for years enjoyed shows by the Red Arrows and the RAF Falcons. These have been free as a thank you for the contribution of the RNLI to the RAF's Air Sea Rescue efforts.

Now the ASR is being contracted out, the RAF apparently has no more need to say thank you in this way.

The press release says (if I understand it right) that the fees being waived this year are £ 12,184 for the Arrows and £ 2,939 for the Falcons. The fees would be payable next year and are set to rise.

The charity week net takings seem to have settled at £ 25,000 give or take. So the organisers have said for next year Thanks but No Thanks.

By another little step the service's image, like that of the Cheshire Cat, is diminishing.

[BEagle]

rlsbutler, that's a great shame.

Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s when I lived in Somerset, family trips to West Dorset were weekend highlights. I well recall the RAF Air Sea Rescue launches which belonged to the MCU back then....

Now we read the following:

Sad farewell to Red Arrows from Lyme Regis Lifeboat Week

We’re sad to announce that the Red Arrows and the RAF Falcons parachute team will not be thrilling the crowds at next year’s Lyme Regis Lifeboat week.

For many years the Red Arrows have performed free of charge during Lifeboat Week as a ‘thank you’ to the RNLI for its contribution to Search and Rescue work.

The organisers of the week, the Lyme Regis and Charmouth RNLI Guild, has learned that due of the transition of Search and Rescue services from the RAF to a civilian contractor, display charges will apply in future.

As usual the guild applied for a visit from the Red Arrows almost immediately after this year’s Lifeboat Week. In their response it was stated that the current charge for the Red Arrows was £12,184 and the Falcons £2,939 and these costs were likely to rise next year. The RNLI guild said that they were unable to find sufficient funds from donations in Lifeboat Week to pay for these displays, and thanked the Red Arrows and RAF Falcons for their support over many years.

A spokesperson said: ‘For many years we have been very fortunate with the Red Arrows and the RAF Falcons visiting the town in Lifeboat Week and supporting the RNLI charity free of charge. Their stunning displays have been a huge attraction to residents and visitors alike, and we know their inclusion in the programme of events has been responsible for raising many thousands of pounds for our charity.

“Regrettably, we cannot find sufficient funds from donations in Lifeboat Week to pay for these displays. The presence of these two magnificent teams will be sorely missed by thousands of people, but this year – when they could not fly because of the weather – we felt we were still able to provide plenty of family events, and donations were not severely affected. Our final figure for this year’s week is in the region of £25,000.

‘Finally, we would like to extend our deep gratitude to the men and women of the Red Arrows and the RAF Falcons and, indeed, the Ministry of Defence, for their wonderful support for our fundraising over many years.’


The creeping cancer of contractorisation strikes again....:mad:

[taxydual]

Thank God the RNLI don't charge for their services to the RAF.

Irony caption lit.

[Wander00]

Hmm, quick off the mark with the invoice - thought contractorisation not yet complete

[ShotOne]

To come back to the original question, YES,Please! It's an important part of what the RAF does. It's probably going to get more difficult each year though; fewer jets, likely more post-Shoreham restrictions. Good luck!

[Could be the last?]

Unfortunately, another example of the 'system' knowing the cost of everything, but the value of nothing - how sad!

[thing]

The way the runway rebuild is going there won't be one next year. I'm betting the next hold up is finding a buried ME109.

[sapperkenno]

It'll never be as good as Air Fete used to be at Mildenhall, and for me nothing comes close.

A general lack of anything exciting these days makes matters worse.

[reds & greens]

Short answer to the question, "No"

Longer answer (being subjected to the absolute nause for 6 continious years),
The place is at 100%, morale is low, staff are dispersed, many others are covering roles in absence, there is no internal appetite for it, local roads are gridlocked, security for both known and little understood assets would be a nightmare, etc etc

Let's throw a few items into RIAT and call it a deal, a weekend away for air and groundcrews and a show for the aviation enthusiasts...

[Martin the Martian]

Of course we could cancel all airshows at military airfields for security reasons, as suggested. While we're at it let's cancel all other events where the public comes onto the site as well; the regular Northolt photo-shoots, Antiques Roadshow recordings, etc, and close down attractions such as the FAA Museum and the Museum of Army Flying as they're on military establishments. In fact, put up HESCO barriers all the way round with watchtowers at regular intervals. Just like Bastion but not as warm and with nobody actually trying to kill you.

Now that my tongue has been removed from my cheek, let's be a bit more sensible.

Let's be honest, the RAF needs publicity and PR, and there are rapidly diminishing opportunities for it. No SAR helicopters, the virtual disappearance of the Town Show, etc, even the widespread adoption of DPM uniform rather than blue for everyday use. There is a big proportion of the public who rarely, if ever, see a military aircraft from one end of the year to the next, and probably have no concept of what the RAF actually does and that it is even a separate organisation from the Army.

Perhaps an answer is to move the event around each year as they do in Belgium, France and the Netherlands, or use personnel from other airfields around the UK to ease the load on Waddington's people. Alternatively, why not do what the Israelis do every year throughout their anniversary week, and open three or four bases to the public -one a day- with a good representative static line-up of aircraft, exhibitions and a couple of flying demos. The idea is to show what the air force does, and what it uses taxpayers' money for, much like the traditional 'At Home' events. And they're happy to let the public onto their airfields, even with their security situation being much worse than ours is :E.

Can we also please get away from the idea that only spotters go to airshows? RIAT estimate that only about 10% of their visitors are enthusiasts, so there is a big interest out there, and at the very least I think that, just as in Israel, taxpayers should be able to see just what some of the government buys on their behalf.

By the way, Flightline UK, which is a much more more reliable source of airshow news, lists nine events between now and the end of next month, only three or four of them traditional airshows as opposed to events with a couple of flying displays added in. RAF participation is limited to BBMF and the Reds at one of those shows, and BBMF at two others. Chances to meet 'your RAF' are getting fewer and fewer.

[diginagain]

... and the Museum of Army Flying as they're on military establishments. But it isn't.

[Wander00]

A few years ago now (well to be true, many but the memories are still clear) I lead an exchange of recently graduated Cranditz cadets (including JB and LK) to the Norwegian Air Force Academy. There were cadets from their Army and Navy academies as well. They offered us flying in their SAAB grading trainer, and the girl friends of the visiting cadets too "as they were taxpayers and should have the opportunity to see what we do". Seemed a good idea

[Martin the Martian]

diginagain said:

But it isn't.

Well, there's a four-foot high fence separating it from Middle Wallop airfield, which makes all the difference.

[diginagain]

If you want to be picky, there's little more than a chainlink fence separating the A343 from the AACC, and three strands of rusty barbed-wire on the southern perimeter, but the MAF still isn't on a military establishment, and hasn't been since the early 1980s.

[Courtney Mil]

Just slap a couple of these up, that should do the trick...

http://www.signhub.com/stock/design/maximum/7719.jpg

They must work or no one would buy them. Come to think of it, that's what Hungary could do with at the moment.

[ShotOne]

Don't underestimate the importance of these events. We already have a leader of the opposition who has said that he'd like to disband the armed forces altogether. You can't take for granted the public (not just spotters!) know what the RAF does unless they're shown.

[Brian W May]

Only on one condition . . .

Demonstration Drone strike on a collection of Abusive Mullahs, guest appearance by Hellfire ?

Failing that, let people have a lie in on Sunday morning instead of the Working Weekend.

[EESDL]

many folk here keep indicating that certain bases in the South should hold the shows instead - so what about us Northerners?
One fond memory of an airshow was one of one poor tourist at Brawdy who had his car carried away because he left it on double-yellow lines and a big yellow helicopter accidently dropped it and it hurt the car and the pilot git into trouble and the Fat Controller's face was red and everything.......

[India Four Two]

... one poor tourist at Brawdy who had his car carried away ...

He must have had ADD because I remember him doing it at Abingdon! :E

The car looked like a flat pack afterwards.

[BEagle]

He must have been a retired German policeman - at the 1975 RAF Wildenrath air show, he and his colleague had their Bundespolizei VW beetle nabbed by a Wessex, which then dropped it from a significant height into the wooded area to the south of the runway. Unfortunately the smoke grenade in a coffee jar did rather a better job than planned when the jar smashed in the impact - it set the woods on fire!

The Germans loved it as it was an excuse to laugh at 'Polizei' - a couple of groundcrew lads in borrowed uniforms chasing the scrap VW they'd painted to resemble a police car, firing blanks and shouting oaths at the helicopter and its crew, followed by the farce of the entire fire section charging across the runway to put out the fire!

[Pontius Navigator]

MtM, fixed or moving displays.

Moving spreads the pain.

Fixed fits in with everyone's calendar. Ensures continuity and expertise. You can spend on infrastructure - Finningley installed sceptic tanks - Waddo improved access roads etc.

Bringing in reinforcements happens, often from the training establishments. Main airfields are too lean to provide much. Reinforcement comes a huge cost in T&S as bases don't have spare accommodation. Gone are the days of busing willing recruits from Swinderby for the day.

[Willard Whyte]

...Waddo improved access roads etc.

God knows what they were like before then.

(Not that I recall much change between my first - '92, and last - '12, postings there).

[Finningley Boy]

A glance at Britishairshows.com shows 18 planned events between now and the end of the year.

Surely that's plenty for the UK Spotter population to enjoy, without taking the risk of opening up a major operational military base to all and sundry.

On security grounds alone, I would vote for binning Cosford and Yeovilton next year too..
Its interesting how times change, not too long ago the idea of holding an airshow on an operational, or certainly an active, RAF Base wasn't seen as quite so outrageous, indeed, it seemed the thing to do each summer/September.

There is clearly less of an appreciation for such an advantage in prestige for the one service which has an advantage in this area, even now after the decimation of years of cuts. With the RN managing to utilize both its two remaining operational airbases each year for this very purpose and with us seeing the 75th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain pass without a single RAF station holding an At Home day in September to mark the event. Not to mention comments on here from those serving today about how difficult it is to manage such an extraordinary proposition, once regarded as another routine exercise, perhaps the day has come when we see the Armed Forces become far less visible, clandetine, obscure and ever fewer in number? I wonder if the Army were glad to see the back of the Royal Tournament.:hmm:

FB:)

[Courtney Mil]

Government: We need to cut the budgets again.

MoD: We guessed.

Staish: Let's have an air show.

Beancounter: Costs too much, no funds available.

Staish: We'll use our own people, charge for attendance and it will be good for PR, recruiting and Service charities.

Beancounter: If you have people spare to do non-core business you have too many. PR is not my budget. We need to downsize, not recruit. Service charities are outside Public Funds.

Public: We never see the Armed Forces doing anything these days, might as well get rid of them.

Government: Ooh, good. More cuts then.

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, and I couldn't give a hoot if station personnel have to work the weekend for an air show or anything else. I did it frequently throughout my 30 years; it's part of the deal.

[ExRAFRadar]

Cant help but agree with CM there - want all your weekends to yourself, become an accountant.

[BEagle]

From Nick Carter's book Meteor Eject!:

In preparation for the 1958 Battle of Britain display season I spent a weekend at Valley doing a display there and at Shawbury. On my return to Chivenor, I learned that my Battle of Britain programme on 20th September would include displays at Valley, Ternhill, Cosford and Gaydon.
.....
At the end of the show, with 50000 spectators streaming away from Gaydon, I flew back to Chivenor in time to shower and pick up the current girl-friend in Barnstaple for the Battle of Britain Mess Ball being held that night.

Not a bad day's Hunter flying! He was displaying an F Mk 4 of No 229 OCU.

Those MUST have been the days....:ok:

[ExRAFRadar]

Wander:

A few years ago now (well to be true, many but the memories are still clear) I lead an exchange of recently graduated Cranditz cadets (including JB and LK) to the Norwegian Air Force Academy. There were cadets from their Army and Navy academies as well. They offered us flying in their SAAB grading trainer, and the girl friends of the visiting cadets too "as they were taxpayers and should have the opportunity to see what we do". Seemed a good idea

Sorry to be a naysayer but how is giving the girlfriends of the cadets in anyway showing them what they do?
Presumably bring girlfriends of the cadets they had a pretty good idea anyway.
Would have hoped they arranged similar jollies for students around the country to get them interested.
Sounds to me a bit like 'Look how cool your boyfriend is' instead of a real program.

[camelspyyder]

Yes the RAF must have been a lot of fun when it was a 100000+ strong flying club...:ugh:

as opposed to the very lean highly operational force it is now.

[ExRAFRadar]

Camel, surely the RAF is so Operational because it is so lean?

And don't knock it if you weren't there. I vividly recall getting really annoyed when some joker wanted to do a run through Spade after 20:00.

And if it was a Thursday I was doubly pissed off because that was Volleyball night.

Bloody 617, always wanted the late slots.

[camelspyyder]

I was there too, and it was great.

Now it's different, but it's still great.

[Finningley Boy]

[QUOTE]Yes the RAF must have been a lot of fun when it was a 100000+ strong flying club...

as opposed to the very lean highly operational force it is now.[/QUOTE

Camelspyyder,

The RAF has always maintained an operational tempo somewhere. I appreciate the gripe about being much smaller now, but not that much surely that everyone everywhere is on a war footing? If indeed that is what you're suggesting. When you joined up did they give any lectures on Malaya, Borneo, Aden, Cyprus? Not to mention the high tempo of readiness of the V-Force, the Tactical Strike force in North West Germany? Add to that, the number of live intercepts consuming mostly Leuchars interceptor crews, albeit from around 1965 forward. I'll wager that the level of QRA activity involving the two Squadrons at Leuchars was significantly higher than at Lossiemouth or Coningsby today. I do sense, with respect, a degree of self over dramatised posturing here. Plus, we had the constant and far more active threat of the IRA.

FB

[Melchett01]

The RAF has always maintained an operational tempo somewhere. I appreciate the gripe about being much smaller now, but not that much surely that everyone everywhere is on a war footing? If indeed that is what you're suggesting.

Finningley,

Without wishing to speak for Camelspyder, we're not far off everyone being operational everywhere. So many of the 'non-operational' posts have either been contractorised, civilianised or just cut, meaning that those that are left are pretty much engaged full time in the business of killing people and breaking their toys or providing direct support to those that are. And given the increasingly Joint nature of things, that could well extend to RAF personnel being operational alongside its sister services in circumstances where the RAF isn't deployed in a major capacity.Add to that the fact that reach back ops are also increaasing, now you don't even need to deploy to kill people and break their toys.

As a set up its lean, almost too lean and there's no fat in the system when you take other commitments like guard, exercises etc on top of ops in to consideration. I started my current job in the spring on the back of a 7 month OOA. What I didn't find out until I'd been there for 2 weeks was that my new boss had to draft a pain & grief statement whilst I was OOA to stop me being deployed again once I got back. And I've had to do similar for some of my juniors since I've been in post, so I don't appear to have been an unusual case.

There's a large element of the RAF that knows nothing other than ops, so I can see why some might be less than enthusiastic about air shows and the likes of Armed Forces Day parade duties.

[Finningley Boy]

Well Melchett01, I'd best yank my foot free of my jaws! Just one question, purely observational, I expect I'm correct in imagining the Fleet Air Arm to be similarly involved, if so, how do they manage to still hold their annual events at Culdrose and Yeovilton, unlike the RAF, these are their only two airfields? Don't get me wrong I fully understand how priorities work and of course if the idea of staging anymore airshows, or even participating in others is now generating the same feeling as coming home from a day's work only to be told by your wife that you still haven't cleared the guttering etc, then say no more, but I'm sure you understand the point about the FAA.

FB:)

[Melchett01]

FB,

It's definitely a valid question if from an external perspective one wishes to compare the 2 organisations, but my understanding of the FAA - how their stations run and their current tasking and structures - is shall we say, rather slender. I'm sure someone that has better visibility of the FAA can provide a sensible answer!

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, the access improvement at Waddo was for air show access through a farmer's field and track.

One aspect of leaning, fewer people, fewer air shows, has also meant less work believe it or not.

At Cottesmore and Coningsby, 20 years apart, we did all the work including the fod pl.od.

At Finningley, while we did some litter collection, the bulk of the work, fod propellers, tents, barriers was all contracted out.

[camelspyyder]

I know that many old folks on here (myself included) are rightly very proud of what we achieved 30-odd years ago. Even back then I worked in one of the few parts of the RAF that flew 24/7 ops. However, at the time, the majority of the Service didn't. Now though, the Op commitment is far more widespread and harmony guides are often broken; it is probably not such a good time to take on extra work which impacts our Operational output - such as taking huge amounts of manpower to run (and secure) airshows.

[Pontius Navigator]

CS:D

While it may only be a lost weekend for everyone a very large number are inevitably mis-employed the preceding week setting up and some the following week.

Then for a fair number their primary job goes on the back burner for days, weeks and even longer.

If you are established at 100%, manned at some level below that, then your effective manning will drop below operationally effective levels. We had one air show at Waddo cancelled (while Finningley was still going) when operations intruded.

It was cancelled sufficiently early that we didn't incur a big loss but if there is a late cancellation who picks up the bill?

[Tiger_mate]

The Air Show picks up the bill and as an organisation they are both insured against total loss and sit on nest eggs sufficiently large to cope.

The worst scenario outside of a flying or indeed other accident, is that aircraft have pre positioned and all is in place before cancellation. This means that the positioning elements of display fees have to be paid, fuel issues completed and HotAc paid for. In other words almost all the overheads of the event without any of the expected income due to refunding. Any event has its business model and Risk Assesment which is why it is an all year round job not a month before and can-do.

[Willard Whyte]

Oh, and I couldn't give a hoot if station personnel have to work the weekend for an air show or anything else. I did it frequently throughout my 30 years; it's part of the deal.

Working a weekend was never a problem. I was based at Lyneham for over a decade, there was almost no such thing as a weekend, even when at home. I remember having to program 3 OCU circuit training sorties over a long Easter weekend to guarantee getting a 'frame.

But having to work a weekend, which came round each year with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season, with an 8-day leave ban in place in order to prevent people taking part in something exponentially more satisfying, was another matter. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if one were given the chance to take every other year's airshow off as leave.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Air Show picks up the bill and as an organisation they are both insured against total loss and sit on nest eggs sufficiently large to cope.

For an organisation such as Finningley/Waddington/Leuchars they usually held back a portion of takings as nest eggs as you say. For a new venue, Waddington/Coningsby the issue was to raise as much revenue for charity through minimizing costs and creative accounting. Insurance, if any, was minimal.

Fuel was often diverted. We had a P51 that arrived with empty drops, refuelled, did a display somewhere else, returned, dropped the tanks, displayed, and then refitted tanks and departed full.

I refused John Watt's Catalina for the same reason - arrive empty, depart full.

My staish also flatly refused to pay Binbrook for T&S, the Reds and Falcons for smokes and refused free entry to their families. TB!

[Onceapilot]

Think there is a big difference today folks!
PS. I don't think a pathetic "I used to work (some) weekends" holds any credit with the important parts of the RAF.

OAP

[JimCasy]

Having worked many an airshow it's not so much the day itself but all the faff that goes with the runup, too many sticking their oar in to change something just for the sake of it. The worst part is the practice bleeding.

[Finningley Boy]

And given the increasingly Joint nature of things, that could well extend to RAF personnel being operational alongside its sister services in circumstances where the RAF isn't deployed in a major capacity.Add to that the fact that reach back ops are also increaasing, now you don't even need to deploy to kill people and break their toys.

As a set up its lean, almost too lean and there's no fat in the system when you take other commitments like guard, exercises etc on top of ops in to consideration. I started my current job in the spring on the back of a 7 month OOA. What I didn't find out until I'd been there for 2 weeks was that my new boss had to draft a pain & grief statement whilst I was OOA to stop me being deployed again once I got back.

Putting airshows aside for now, I can appreciate the level of manning might not have a s much slack as it once did, I seem to recall on occasion, during summer in particular, the ops flight at Portreath had just me and one other when we were suppose to have no fewer than three of us on shift. Mind that was as much to do with annual leave but there were deployments as well. What I find difficult to imagine is; what would happen if one or more of our Typhoon Squadrons had to deploy next? Everything is UK based today!? accepted there is the eight aircraft Tornado detachment to Akrotiri, a sovereign airbase, but I undertant that's all? The transport aircraft numbers we have now are surely greater in proportion to the ratio of 1965 and certainly 1985! But with Afghanistan no longer a serious concern, what keeps the rest of the RAF on a war footing? Where are the Chinooks and Pumas going that the Navy's Sea Kings, Merlins, Lynx and Wildcats aren't?

Are training units on a war footing? Or is the RAF simply seriously short of established man power!? I was under the impression that the new established level was 35,000 while it has dropped below 32,000, so maybe that's it!

Again, sorry to sound like an old rambling idiot, but in 1965, Transport command were very busy re-supplying Aden and many other places, which, locally, were on a war footing with troops on the ground. Khormaksar looked like Heathrow at times with Argosies, Beverlies, Britannias, Comets and all. But they weren't regarded as being at war, nor the rest of HM Forces not deployed in theatre.

FB:confused:

[camelspyyder]

I think if you check RAF News, Page 2 normally has a map showing where the Service is deployed.

It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.

[Tay Cough]

For an organisation such as Finningley/Waddington/Leuchars they usually held back a portion of takings as nest eggs as you say. For a new venue, Waddington/Coningsby the issue was to raise as much revenue for charity through minimizing costs and creative accounting. Insurance, if any, was minimal.

Fuel was often diverted. We had a P51 that arrived with empty drops, refuelled, did a display somewhere else, returned, dropped the tanks, displayed, and then refitted tanks and departed full.

I refused John Watt's Catalina for the same reason - arrive empty, depart full.

My staish also flatly refused to pay Binbrook for T&S, the Reds and Falcons for smokes and refused free entry to their families. TB!

As an occasional airshow performer (not in a P-51 unfortunately), with the best will in the world, you will not get the "acts" unless you pay for them. A WW2 fighter costs around £3500 per hour to operate so it will require some (a lot of) fuel to tempt it to your show with likely a commensurate fixed rate. I charge a different rate depending on whether the organiser includes fuel or not. Overall, I break even. The organiser may benefit if he is able to get fuel cheaper than I can.

[Finningley Boy]

I think if you check RAF News, Page 2 normally has a map showing where the Service is deployed.

It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.


Camelspyder,

The RAF as with the other services has always had various less visible deployment locations strewn across the Globe; from Goosebay to Borneo.

But how many of the deployment locations are actually on a 'war footing' and the Baltic states don't count. I'll stick my neck out here, routine deployments to all manner of curious locations across the atlas have always been there, Squadrons have always deployed overseas either on exercises, armaments practice camps, shows of force or just to pop in to say hello but even outside of WWII and Korea, nothing was seen as being at war even if the deployment had a series nature to it. 25 squadron spent most of its being based at leuchars in 1962 over in Germany ready to escort transport aircraft down the Berlin air corridor with all that might result in, the fact we're all still here is because the Soviets who were routinely threatening to close off all access to Berlin, luckily didn't.

FB

[Pontius Navigator]

Tay, indeed. I got a number of Spitfires and they all came free but with full fuel on arrival for the display and on departure. I can say this now, but Nick Grace flying from Southampton said he would be out of pocket using all his 'free' fuel to get home again. He asked and we gave him is fee - £190!

G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.

Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.

[squawking 7700]

Don't bother with an airshow, just host the Antiques Roadshow to help promote the RAF (and possibly Army and RN).

[Tay Cough]

Tay, indeed. I got a number of Spitfires and they all came free but with full fuel on arrival for the display and on departure. I can say this now, but Nick Grace flying from Southampton said he would be out of pocket using all his 'free' fuel to get home again. He asked and we gave him is fee - £190!

G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.

Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.

It also depends on the show. I am at the wedding/barmitzvah/village fete level rather than RIAT but to be invited to one of the bigger shows would probably result in a lot more flexibility of charging from my point of view. Ahoy, RIAT - I'll do it for fuel only! ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Squawk, and have rent-a-crowd gathered around wotsername in grow bags. Seeing them once, fine, on every shot, bet they were pressed - your flying suit looks clean, pop over to BBMF for a bit.

I wonder if wotsername got to keep her growbag and gloves. Now that had been at ISK in the old days, knockers would have been all over it trying to buy it.

[Finningley Boy]

Okay Dokay,

To answer the question the thread asks, I wouldn't necessarily like to see the Waddington Airshow per se return. But I would like to see a properly comprehensive RAF airshow, perhaps two or a two day event, of a similar standing to Waddington, or indeed better still, the Belgian Air Force Days as an example, held each September, on the week in which the 15th September falls. I'd be absolutely over the orbiting lump of soil with that!:ok:

FB:)

[downsizer]

So in summary, those that want it back are out; and those that don't seem to be everyone still in who has to work it.:ok:

[Fluffy Bunny]

Or are at least posted at Waddo at the moment.....

[Pontius Navigator]

Downsizer, I guess I must be in the CCL camp though having been at Waddo I would go with the no group.

Must admit I enjoyed participating at places like New Zealand, Farnborough, Colt, Gaydon, Finningley, Cranwell, Old Sarum, and got a great buzz at Coningsby after the event, but hate battling the traffic and crowds today.

Enjoy our regular displays of Spitfires, Hurricanes, Dakota, Lancasters, and Typhoons, all at no cost, no crowds and a glass of wine to hand.

[airsound]

The RAF had one air show this year - Cosford. It's a very good show, not on a frontline station - but it maxes out at about 55,000 people.

airsound

[BEagle]

Be careful about that for which you might wish!

Remember the Spirit of Adventure farce of 8 years ago? No? Well here you are:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/270891-spirit-adventure.html

[Four Types]

There is a lot of talk of 'Leaning' on this thread...(posh word for cut backs).


I would like to offer this -


'Leaning' is just 'Learning' with the r's kicked out of it!!


Four types

[Skeleton]

Of course the RAF should be able to put on at least one Airshow a year, be it at Waddington or anywhere else, if only to let some of the great "unwashed" whose taxes pay for it see some of what their paying for, and like the Red Arrows they do influence people to join.

Commitments such as Guarding, OOA, deployments etc, were bandied about at Leuchars and Waddo when I was there as reasons not to have an Airshow. Didn't stop them then and I am highly doubtful it will now.

If the powers that be want an Airshow, an Airshow they shall have.

Unless of course the bean counters decide otherwise.

[Krystal n chips]

" Of course the RAF should be able to put on at least one Airshow a year, be it at Waddington or anywhere else, if only to let some of the great "unwashed" whose taxes pay for it see some of what their paying for, and like the Red Arrows they do influence people to join" .

Whilst not strictly speaking an RAF show, the public as mentioned above did have the chance to see how their £££'s are being spent last weekend....at the Southport Air show. Which, along with a couple of friends and about 45000 others, I attended.

Given the location, it's very well organised as in the town itself keeps functioning whilst the paying public are directed to the front.

However, there was only one real attraction to judge from the many overheard conversations and that was the Vulcan.

The arrival, with the Red Arrows in a V formation, in near perfect weather, did, as they say, bring the house down and I suggest you have a look on you tube as to just how impressive this was.

Thereafter, came what can best be described as an "interesting" display. :ok:

The downside.

Given the complete range of people attending, the collective and repeated, ahem, "sentiments" towards the commentary / commentator were telling.

As an exercise in "how to put people off aviation, the RAF and air shows" it was unsurpassed. Ponderous and, at times, arrogant inflection, repeated references to that, raid, "please give us some more money " and a lecture in Roman history and mythology all contributed towards a negative perception.

This was going to be the last chance most people, other than the dedicated enthusiasts, would have to see the Vulcan displayed so you would have thought a lively, upbeat, celebratory and even humourous commentary would have been more applicable......but no.