Defence College of Technical Training - Canned

[Lima Juliet]

From: Defence Technical Training Change Programme:Written statement - HCWS182 - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2015-09-09/HCWS182/)

Due to the enormity of the task we planned to implement training transformation in a phased manner, split into a series of tranches, the first being the relocation of the REME Schools from Bordon and Arborfield to MOD Lyneham. For the subsequent tranches of the programme, the original intent was to consolidate additional elements of the DCTT at MOD Lyneham. However, a recently completed re-evaluation of the programme has determined that the consolidation onto a single site at MOD Lyneham is not the best solution.

The revised DTTCP will result in the Defence School of Marine Engineering and the Royal Naval Air Engineering & Survival Equipment School remaining at HMS Sultan. It will also see No. 1 School of Technical Training, the Aeronautical Engineering & Management Training School and the No. 1 Radio School remaining at RAF Cosford and subject to further work, these schools will be joined at RAF Cosford by No. 4 School of Technical Training from MOD St Athan.

So what a complete waste of money. I wonder if they'll do the same with the Worthy Down 'folly' and the current plans looking at a single RAF gateway at Cranwell. If only VSOs would listen to the OF-4s and below, instead of the polliticking OF-5s, and above then we wouldn't constantly find ourselves in this mess.

The less said about DIO and their 'rationalisation studies' the better as well! :ugh:

It looks like the right decision is being made, now, at least. :ok:

LJ

[Cows getting bigger]

A rather more svelte CGB completed BSC in 1999. On the same course there was an enthusiastic admin officer who was singing the praises of DTR and how all three service's technical training was going to be collocated at Cosford (I think he was something to do with Scribbly Central).

Most of us yawned, mused that it would never happen and shambled-off to the bar.

[NutLoose]

The now redundant Lyneham would make an ideal base to operate the erm Herk fleet from, thus freeing up room at Brize. :O

[The B Word]

Lots from "Scribbly Central" work in the infra game and DIO. That to me is the problem as they are so far removed from what the operational customer wants that when we want a hangar we get a wharehouse!

B Word

[The B Word]

Yes, Project Future Brize has been another total cl^ster-f^ck...

[Red Line Entry]

This is superb news for all those at Cosford (although no surprise) as the uncertainty over the future has finally been officially removed.

Nutloose, you need to pay a visit to Lyneham. It has been completely converted for use by the REME. The old Officers' Mess has become their museum! So not a chance of getting aircraft back in there.

[The B Word]

There is still enough runway left to get something smaller in there, though. Although the solar farm at the Eastern end has effectively ended any major use:

https://adhawkins.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/sam_74571.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/scalesoarer/G0011705_zpsqsusmkb3.jpg

Another great DIO idea!!!

[dctyke]

Sound decision, it should never have got this far! I wonder how much new training infrastructure has been completed at Lyneham, the boys in green will be happy - What a waste of money.

[Marly Lite]

Hopefully MFTS will be next.

[Si Clik]

I understand that MFTS continues to go from crisis to crisis. The trouble is that ASCENT have a contractual stranglehold on the MOD and alternatives would be more expensive.

[salad-dodger]

Out in the real world people would lose their jobs over a mess like this. Meanwhile, in the MoD, people will have been promoted and rewarded. What a cluster****

S-D

[oldmansquipper]

Oh.. what a surprise!

the latest in a series of CFs?. Earlier star billings include the St Athan Hanger, Multi Discipline groups and numerous `good idea` computer programes to handle just about everything...

[Whenurhappy]

I'd really like to know how many of the Admin Branch officers (Pers Spt in new pence) have ever worked on a major construction project outside of the MOD and, indeed, have any professional qualifications...and no, I don't mean membership of the British Institute of Facilities Management.

I recall trying to explain 10 years ago that there was not net gain in attempting to rationalise Lyenham as half the site had been seized under Defence Regulatikns (Emergency Powers) act and therefore had to be offered back to the original owners at the unimproved value- at time of requisition. I also argued to professionalise the Branch after having to share the embarrassment of attending a works group meeting at Kandahar with a young FLt Lt who represented the RAF estate there and it transpired, in front of a room of PQEs from across NATO, that she'd held as OC Works at Halton...for 3 months, and that was her sum total of airfield construction and maintenance experience.

[FantomZorbin]

Whenurhappy
It's not just the blue-suitors, the commercial bods in MOD have a lot to answer for; a person held up a contract for months in order to save £5k (VFM* don't you know!) only for the Contractor to add £50k to his PDS* costs as a direct result. :ugh:


* VFM - Value for Money, PDS - Post Design Services

[BEagle]

Quite how such a massive £180M undertaking https://insidedio.blog.gov.uk/2014/05/28/training-takes-flight-at-former-raf-base/ can now be described, at this late stage, as having been recently re-evaluated, resulting in a determination that the consolidation onto a single site at MOD Lyneham is not the best solution is quite beyond me.

Looks like another famous RAF station will now be 100% squaddified.....

[FantomZorbin]

... or accommodation for the refugees/migrants/etc. :uhoh:

[Rosevidney1]

Accommodation for immigrants will definitely be needed for the swarms expected.

[tucumseh]

I wonder if this might yet have legs. James Gray MP is on the Defence Committee. He has been trumpeting the Lyneham training school to his constituents for at least 5 years.

[Roadster280]

Looks like another famous RAF station will now be 100% squaddified.....

You say that like it's a bad thing. At least it will remain in the MOD estate.

Can you blame the Army for taking advantage of the RAF's exit? If the Army had said "OK chaps, we'd like Lyneham airfield, get those C130s moved", then I could see why the RAF might dislike that.

The closer-to-the-truth situation is that the RAF decamped to save their budget, putting all their transport eggs into one single-runway basket into the bargain. The MOD then decided to consolidate tri-service technical training there to save money across the board. Laudable in intent, but utterly naive. It was never going to either work or save money.

The REME's camps at Bordon were horrible when I went there 25 years ago. They must be worse now, so I cannot blame them for wanting to move into a camp that was built "only" 70 years ago (i.e. much newer), and recently re-built as a training college.

I see the Royal School of Signals is still under review. When I was an instructor there, I knew a particular staff officer quite well. His job was to liaise with contractors looking at privatising the School. That was 17 years ago. By the time the 2016 review is complete, and any actions to move the School implemented, the basic trainees I trained there will have completed their careers and be drawing their pensions, or close to it. What a farce.

[Chugalug2]

Roadster280, I absolutely agree with you that it is a good thing that the Army moves into vacated RAF Stations. They did so in at least five of the stations where I was; Thorney Island, South Cerney, Colerne, Hullavington and Lyneham. They at least maintain the place, adapting it to their requirements no doubt.

Of those five the least deserving of preservation was Lyneham IMHO. The other four had decent architecture, two with Baldwin triple decker messes. Lyneham didn't, and was simply a mess. If they had levelled it, it would be no great loss, though the runways and hard standings are of course...

[iRaven]

So what other building 'follies' and moves are going on?

I heard the following:

- A brand spanking new HQ and hangar at RAF Syerston - when 18 months later they are still not able to fly cadets. Further rumour is that they now want the runway resurfaced!
- The move of all supplier training to Worthy Down and the rumour is there is no money to do it.
- Move of Gunner trg from Honington to Halton, when the top brass are trying to arrange Operation SAVE-CRANWELL by expecting to move all RAF initial training to Cranwell from Halton by 2018. Haven't they heard "there is no money"?
- Everyone is chockablock in HQ Air after everyone told them that the rationalisation of MOD and HQ PTC would not fit - now there is overflow at Halton and we've had to move loads of staff out of the HQ to FHQs on the MoBs (which also doesn't work).
- The great Brize Norton debacle is just that. No-where to park, people squeezed in like sardines and people still living in quarters at Lyneham. Looking forward to Op BOLTHOLE in a few years time when the runway needs doing.
- Leuchars still has a RAF contingent as Lossiemouth needs a diversion the other side of the Grampians for QRA. Kinloss runway stays open as Lossie's crash diversion. Some great savings there then!
- The move of flying from Wyton to Cranwell and Wyton has been a total disaster. No one thought that an AEF/UAS might want to fly at weekends at Wyton with all the support ot needs (I kid you not).
- They are struggling to find language instructors for the recently moved Defence School of Languages - Beaconsfield was near to some native speakers, whereas Shrivenham in the Cotswolds isn't!

The list of scr3w ups is just unbelievable, and this latest Lyneham debacle is just another. Is there NO-ONE that can provide a single coherent strategy for basing for the next 20 years that is funded and we can stick to?

Whilst we're at it. Why have we still got airfields at:

Kenley
Kirknewton
Little Rissington
Weathersfield
Weston-on-the-Green
Woodvale
Barkston Heath
Syerston
Predannack
Topcliffe

When there is absolutely no other core Service activity happening at these establishments? Surely, they are the 'brownfield' choice of champions for the Govt's housing development plans?

It doesn't seem to be that difficult, but as ever, meddling by those with vested interests far up the 'slippery pole' seem to override common sense and the call by those with some grey matter between their ears. The lunacy of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation and their Regional Prime Contractors ripping off the taxpayers by at least 100% of the going rate by a local tradesman/builder is just another indication of waste. The fact that it is full of scribblies really does prove what we've long suspected. How the Scribbly Branch has survived all these years of cuts is beyond me. If ever there was an area of our branches that could be FTRS'd, Civil Servantised or even contracted out, then it's the Pers Supt Branch!

There you go, that's one area of SDSR sorted. :rolleyes:

It really just beggars belief! I think I need to have a lie down in the garden under the Sunday Times to calm down...

iRaven

[Roadster280]

Whilst we're at it. Why have we still got airfields at:

Kenley
Kirknewton
Little Rissington
Weathersfield
Weston-on-the-Green
Woodvale
Barkston Heath
Syerston
Predannack
Topcliffe

When there is absolutely no other core Service activity happening at these establishments? Surely, they are the 'brownfield' choice of champions for the Govt's housing development plans?

iRaven

You missed Sculthorpe. And Keevil. And Upavon.

[Pontius Navigator]

Did you actually understand the wank words in the quote in the OP?

WFT are they tranching? What is wrong with phase? They were doing it on a phased manner so presumably in f****g phases. Or management elegant variations to avoid inelegant repetition.

Wordsmiths might be decried but they try and use appropriate language

[reynoldsno1]

Although the solar farm at the Eastern end has effectively ended any major use
... you could fit a couple of nuclear power stations in there ....:ok:

[Fluffy Bunny]

The REME move is too far gone to stop it. The forward elements are already there taking over buildings and providing initial capability for the studes starting their revised courses. The first courses stood up the begining of this month.
Bordon is falling apart, it's had no proper care and maintenance to the buildings for decades. Arborfield is a little better, but still would need a lot of money to bring it up to a decent standard.
The plan to move Sultan has fallen on it's backside because the Navy have no desire to intergrate their training with the other two services. Collingwood's been a case study for that for years.
As for moving Cosford, How do you move the RAF's aircraft tech training on to an airfield that's got no hangar space as it's already full of tanks and the pan and runways being used for recovery training?

[1.3VStall]

When listing all the major c*ck ups over the last 20 years or so, we mustn't leave out the Bentwaters / Woodbridge saga!!!!:ugh:

[vascodegama]

I heard it suggested that the BW/WB fiasco was actually avoided (wrong volts etc) or did I miss the bigger picture?

[Not_a_boffin]

The plan to move Sultan has fallen on it's backside because the Navy have no desire to intergrate their training with the other two services. Collingwood's been a case study for that for years.

You do know what training is undertaken at Collingrad, don't you? Perhaps you could expand on how ASMD, ASW, ASuW and EW tactical training and the ops room and bridge trainers could be economically delivered elsewhere? Whereas clearly the RAF has no such problems, as long as there's a runway and hangar...

The Sultan move economics were always predicated on being able to get a significant pile of bunce from redeveloping the site for housing. Trouble is that the infrastructure in Gosport/Fareham won't support that level of additional housing, so planning permission (and hence realisable value) is unlikely. Add to that the lessons learned in retention over the last few years and it becomes clear that the perceived benefits of tri-service collocation may not be all they're cracked up to be.

[1.3VStall]

N-a-b,

economics were always predicated on being able to get a significant pile of bunce from redeveloping the site for housing

That has been the problem with all DIOs sales and potential sales of MoD sites!

[Fluffy Bunny]

N-a-B,
I do indeed know what training is undertaken at Collingwood. I was a stude there myself last century and have good friends instructing there in light blue at the moment.

As to the housing development thing... It's the same for Arborfield and Bordon. Both are earmarked to become very large housing developments. (when the quarters are eventually handed back from being overspill for Aldershot with the returning of the last gaspers of BAOR.)

[Martin the Martian]

iRaven:

re Predannack, used as a RLG for Culdrose. Take a look at how far it is from the rest of civilisation, smack bang in the middle of an AONB and see how easy it is to build houses there.