60 hours and not solo

[FSXPilot]

Ok someone I know is in this position. The question is what would convince you to let them go solo?

[Ascend Charlie]

I had an older (40s) student, a lawyer, so not totally stupid, who got to 70 hours before I was ready to let him go solo. Having had a solo, he then quit, knowing he would never make it as a pilot.

Your mate would need to be able to do the following, without prompting from you or helping out:
preflight inspection
start and runup
lift to the hover, move around to a takeoff position
take off and fly a safe circuit, steady descent on final to a nominated position, come to a hover, land it.
hopefully make some radio calls as required.

Be able to carry out a landing from practice engine failure in hover, and a reasonably safe auto to a power termination.

[Parson]

I'm not from the rotary world, but from a general viewpoint maybe a change of school/instructor?

[jayteeto]

Agree. He may still fail to go solo, but if an instructor has decided that this person will never go solo, it may be difficult to change his mind. If the cash is there, give it a try.
Also, how has the continuity been? One or two lessons a month will mean he is always trying to catch up and not learn.

[[email protected]]

Assmuning there has been reasonable continuity of training, this is similar to someone who takes 20 plus attempts to pass their driving test - do you really want them on the road (in this case in the air) with you?

At 60 hours, unless there have been real problems with the instructor/student relationship, it is likely that the required standard will never be met. Not everyone has what it takes to fly a helicopter just as not everyone can learn to play the piano/sing/tap dance etc etc - it is not a God-given right that you will be safe enough to go solo.

[gwelo shamwari]

Honestly, the instructor/flight school should have already spoken to the student pilot by this time concerning his progress. If there has been no discussion it would look like to me that they are not too concerned about their customer and are just trying get every bit of flight time/cash that thy can.

However, if there has been continuity of training and the student has not soloed, I would talk to the instructor about my progress and either ask to fly with someone else or even try a different flight school and get an honest second opinion. Not everyone is cut out to fly.

[ersa]

It sounds like your being milked for hours , I know of a school that won't allow ppl to sit a skills test with less than 85 hours .

go to another school ASAP

[Hughesy]

Any Instructor, should not let a student go solo UNLESS they can safely complete a normal circuit or a be able to perform a emergency landing either under power or a full auto.

Sending them solo with being able to at least get the aircraft down without minimal risk to life isn't right.At a minimum the student should be told they are well behind the average student so they are aware of limitations in their flying.

[cattletruck]

I almost got my ticket in minimum hours (then 28 hrs) with no rotary experience.

I talked my friend into getting his, same background in plank land as me but much older.

Same school, same instructors, same machines, it took him 30 hrs just to learn how to hover safely.

In the end the school made the right decisions and he is now a competent rotary pilot - no milking the client but rather training to a standard. He got there in the end and well done to him.

[maddmatt]

Tricky one to call really, some people take to helicopters like ducks to water, but, there must be a limit, a time when someone has to say, maybe this is not for you, maybe try fixed wing or something that doesn't leave the ground...

Or he could get to 65 hours and it all clicks and he will wonder how it took so long :O

[Peter-RB]

However,...Is your mate/pal/friend being totally honest with you, the instructor may well be holding back cos your mate is not able or near able to consider solo flying, after all the rotary world has training machines that are notorious in being able to go crunch in less time than you can say "fark me", and if your pal is still taking instructor accompanied flight it could just be he dose not wish to tell you that......:eek:

[cockney steve]

I heard of a fellow, did well from the car-salvage business,- Went to Barton,wanting to be a heli pilot......The school turned him away, citing that he was not "pilot material" and money would not buy the required aptitude.....
he went to another school, who took hios money and he eventually got a licence. some weeks later, he hired a robinson, took his wife and flew them to survey their business empire from the air.

Some say it was carb icing.....both dead, heli a writeoff.

Sometimes you just have to accept your limitations...me, never an athlete or a singer!

[VP-F__]

Someone I know took the best part of 80 hours last year to get his ppl with the aim being to continue on to cpl level. Strikes me that he is being milked by the school that he is at. He was in a hurry and was doing 4 hour days (far too much imho if you have no prior flying experience) and it appears from talking to him that no one advised him against doing so much.

I believe the 80 hours included minimal solo flight which will then impact on cost of gaining a twin turbine rating (due to needing to meet the minimum PIC time) should he continue.

If you want to become a cpl then 60 hours over a reasonable timescale should be more than enough before questions should be asked and a second opinion sought.

[maddmatt]

4 hours a day is fine if you build up to it. I would suggest he goes to another school and do a check ride - get another opinion, based on what he has done already his CPL could cost a king's ransom!

[Ascend Charlie]

I had a student come to my school when we started up, because we were much closer to his home that The Other School was. He told me he had around 15 hours with them, and had been told he was nearly ready to go solo.

I took him out, and he couldn't hover, couldn't fly straight and level, had no idea of how to fly a stable approach, NFI at all. But he was keen, and worked in the money industry, and he gave us $25,000 up front to do 2 weeks solid ground school, with an occasional training flight to consolidate the ground school, before hitting the flying big time.

He was tragic at theory, and took multiple lessons to understand the most basic stuff. His flying was equally tragic. At the end of ground school, I gave him some trial exams, he failed dismally. A few more flights, and I told him he was not going to make it through the course within the $25k, and rather than reach that point where there was no money left and he didn't have a licence and he would get really angry, I gave him back $13,000 and suggested he stay with banking.

He thanked me for my honesty, and drove off in his Beemer.

Two weeks later, he rang to say he had gone back to The Other School, and had passed his theory exams with an average of 85%. Shortly afterwards, he passed his commercial licence test with them.

Two months after that, he landed at our heliport in a B206, took on a full fuel load, then added 4 big passengers, 5 sets of golf clubs, and started up. Getting airborne took a lot of runway, and off he went to land at a golf course 3000' amsl.

The beating that JetRanger took that day was horrendous, not just from being grossly over weight, but mainly the way he flew it. The owner of that machine subsequently found out that The Other School was pulling the circuit breaker for the hour meter, not logging the maintenance, not paying the owner for using his machine, and over stressing it like crazy. They are still in business....

[Whirlybird]

"60 hours and not solo". More information required. Is this due to lack of aptitude, poor instruction, lessons too far apart, difficulty with just one thing eg lifting off vertically, poor decision making, personal issues, something else...

Without knowing more, I don't think your question can be answered.

[[email protected]]

Ascend Charlie - that story is scary - what chance does anyone with any professional integrity stand in such a cut-throat business?

[sandiego89]

Whirlybird "60 hours and not solo". More information required. Is this due to lack of aptitude, poor instruction, lessons too far apart, difficulty with just one thing eg lifting off vertically, poor decision making, personal issues, something else...

Without knowing more, I don't think your question can be answered.

Agree totally with too little info here. What are the goals of the student? Maybe they just want the experience, and are happy to fly with an instructor and does not fly that often. Nothing wrong with that. His money. Could be a whole host of reasons.

[Ascend Charlie]

Crab, that's not the only story about That School.

We had used a pilot for a couple of charters, and he seemed to be quite competent and a nice guy. Knowing that he had done his instructor rating at That School, I asked him if he would like to do some instructing for us, and he recoiled, saying:
"I don't really have an instructor rating - it is only a "That School" rating. Instead of doing all the theory and 40 hours of dual, I paid them for all the course, I flew half of it, and they signed me up. I really don't know how to instruct and I wouldn't like to try."

[VP-F__]

Maddmatt I did just that........you can lead ahorse to water etc etc

[maddmatt]

Yep, does make for worrying reading though, flying helicopters requires various skills that all have to be done to a high standard. When I read how some schools are becoming complacent with this, I wonder where it will end up.

I am due to start a conversion from an Aussie CPL (h) to EASA CPL (h) and I have to choose a school to do this through. luckily I am experienced enough to know when I am being bullsh*tted but I would still prefer to do this conversion through a school with a good reputation.

South East of England if anyone has any recommendations :)

[Vertical Freedom]

the time is less important than the end result ;) I've seen a 3 Private Pilot's take 50, 65 & 80 hours to go Solo.....But at the end of the day they all made it, still flying & safe :D (just cost them more than most) Hey they made it safely that's what counts :ok:

[ersa]

Madmatt,

I'm doing my Aussie conversion now , only advice is study up on the quarter mil charts , the skills test is partly based on a fix wing Nav.

Not sure if you have any vor experience , that will be required as well.

I'm up in the midlands , great school , not the sausage factory type.

Good luck

[maddmatt]

Thanks for that, I will start to look at the nav and vor stuff soon. Need to decide what school to go through down this neck of the woods.

[Bravo73]

I am due to start a conversion from an Aussie CPL (h) to EASA CPL (h) and I have to choose a school to do this through. luckily I am experienced enough to know when I am being bullsh*tted but I would still prefer to do this conversion through a school with a good reputation.

Have you got a 'right to work' in the UK/Europe? If so, I'd (obviously) choose a school with the best chance of leading on to further work. Some schools only deal with instruction, other schools/might have pipeline or survey contracts or other schools might have good connections with the offshore industry. etc etc

Your previous experience, and future intentions, would (IMHO) be the determining factors.


(Apologies in advance if that was bit of an 'egg sucking lesson').

[maddmatt]

No very good points, luckily I am english so that is ok, in terms of where I go with the conversion, who knows - I'm open to (constructive) suggestions

[tony 1969]

60 hours and still not solo?
I have had PPL's go through at or close to minimum hours and a couple take 100 hrs, and from 17 to 67 years old, from all walks of life, different attitudes and aptitudes.
As long as the school has had the conversion with the student that this is taking longer than it should and the student is fully aware of their limitations then it's fine. What they should not do is milk them for the flying.

Maddmatt:
Advance Helicopters at Shoreham.