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Gunship
16th Jun 2002, 20:31
From news24.com and the Sunday Crimes (uhmm Times)...

Libya arms deal 'premature'

Cape Town - The South Africa presidency on Sunday said it would be premature to talk about an arms deal with Libya, as Pretoria and Tripoli were merely involved in "exploratory talks".

Presidential spokesperson Bheki Khumalo said: "It is still very early to say. It is purely exploratory talks."

Any decision to sell arms would have to be approved by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC) headed by Education Minister Kader Asmal, he said.

The Sunday Times reported at the weekend that South Africa was negotiating with the Libyan government to co-operate in the defence sector to manufacture and sell arms to Tripoli.

The supply of arms to Libya is restricted by a United Nations arms embargo, imposed because of Tripoli's alleged support for international terrorism.

The discussions, led by Denel's deputy chief executive Max Sisulu, who is also the chairperson of the Aerospace, Maritime and Defence Association of South Africa, occurred on the sideline of President Thabo Mbeki's state visit to Libya this week.

Boom for defence industry

Quoting Public Enterprises Minister Jeff Radebe, the newspaper said there were no details yet about the value and nature of the deal as discussions were at an early stages.

If agreed to, the co-operation would mean a boom for the defence industry and could translate into billions of rands over a number of years.

Libya wants to upgrade its old Mirage aircraft and wants to acquire a new fleet of fighter jets, as well as replace its military helicopters.

In his reaction, DA defence spokesperson Hendrik Schmidt said Pretoria should remember its own regulations and principles before even contemplating arms sales to Libya.

"Colonel Gaddafi's government has been linked to terrorism and the South African government would be guilty of a serious lack of judgment if we were to provide his nation with arms." Schmidt said the proposed deal would possibly contravene at least three of the NCACC's principles.

These included:


The respect showed for human rights and fundamental freedoms, based on the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the African Charter on Human and People's Rights;

The record of compliance regarding international arms control agreements and treaties; and

Whether such arms sales support South Africa's national and foreign interests.
Schmidt said it was also crucial that the NCACC bill was adopted by parliament as soon as possible.

"Until this Bill is finalised all arms sales would take place in a vacuum of uncertainty."

Meanwhile, Khumalo said a headline in the Sunday Times newspaper saying that Mbeki's African plan was under fire and had been labelled a project of "former colonisers and racists" by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi was "stretching matters too far".

"The president has an impression that the launch of the African Union and the New Partnership for Africa's Development (Nepad) - will go ahead as planned," he said.

This had been confirmed in a joint communique between South Africa and Libya, Khumalo said.

Paddle Steamer
16th Jun 2002, 21:14
This sounds as though the deal is in return for certain backing for "projects"such as NEPAD and the African Union..Also ,it is amazing how far you can bend your own rules when the country concerned has a vast supply of oil and uses that supply for favours.Zimbabwe is a case in point.

"clowns to the left..jokers to the right...here i am ,stuck in the middle with you"

C Montgomery Burns
16th Jun 2002, 23:24
I don't think the Libyans understand how bribery and coruption works, though. In SA we had the Germans give 'subsidised' 4WDs to government ministers when they sold arms to us; and in Libya we have the Colonel give our beloved Comrade President an armoured Merc! Surely as the buyer it's the Colonel that gets the dash? :D

http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2002/06/16/news/news03.asp

Also from today's Sunday Crimes it looks like the Colonel isn't too happy about NEPAD ... is it because it wasn't thought up by him? Sour grapes and all that...

http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2002/06/16/news/news01.asp

B Sousa
17th Jun 2002, 04:21
Why is anyone surprised. As the saying goes, "Money talks and Bull**** walks."

Paddle Steamer
17th Jun 2002, 06:34
I wonder what Jets the good Colonel is talking about or are we now going into the refubishing of old F1's..we have done so in the past with russian engines!!!

As for the so called embargo...a few years ago i had the good fortune to be one of the first "western" aircraft into Libya.We night stopped at one of the oilfields and low and behold...we were met by Canadians who were runing the airfield/oilfield and all the aircraft were Dash's and twotters.Very well serviced etc..bit of an eyeopener.

The Claw
17th Jun 2002, 07:32
Libya has been mentioned as a new home for the F1-AZ's and most people believe that this will happen. I doubt that they will be re-engined but most likely they will be fitted out for Russian missiles etc.

maxrated
17th Jun 2002, 21:56
In this global age of capitalist economic institutions, I can see no reason why South Africans should be having second thoughts about selling arms and helicopters to Libya.

After all, the Rooivalk Heli project has cost so much of our tax money, quite frankly, I'm rather keen to see some returns on the investment and if the other western countries are allowed to purchase oil from a so called , terrorist state, why should we not be allowed to sell them arms and helicopters.

Let us not forget that western countries had no qualms in the past about selling arms to a host of other renegade and rogue goverments in various parts of the world, if it suited their political asperations and financial aims. For example before the 11th of September episode, Pakistan was called an "undemocratic military dictatorship" by the USA and other western countries, by the 12th September , Pakistan had miraculously become " Americas most trusted friend and ally, in the Middle east".

Personally I see no reason why the South Africans should not be entitled to make their own politically shallow moves, if the country stands to gain financially.

B Sousa
17th Jun 2002, 22:26
Rated...Well said, again Money talks.
Sad about the Rooivalk, it certainly started out as a good project. I mentioned sometime ago seeing all the prototypes. They went from a good machine to a big lumbering giant with more toys than necessary, and more missions than SA has threats. Very similar to what happens with prototypes in the U.S. Someday maybe the top will listen to the bottom. I remember in the Cobra We could carry Fuel or Armament, but not full amounts of both. Then came the Apache and folks tell me the same applies only with bigger numbers.
Im sure if SA sells to Libya, some ambassador will stomp and shout, someone will get paid off, and somone wont get invited to dinner at some Embassy. Then it will all go away as the aircraft are not a Military threat in the aviation world today anyway....

Paddle Steamer
18th Jun 2002, 20:26
I wonder if Bae systems and the other members of our multi billion rand arms deal will have anything to say about this deal re Libya...what about technology transfer,etc!!