System failure after doors closed

[farbre]

Hi Folks, I'm curious what are your airline's procedures in the event of a failure that occurs after the closing of aircraft doors. Do you have to return to the gate? Or can you "dispatch yourself" according to the MEL? In which case do you have to do any paperwork?

Thanks :)

[Fratemate]

For us it's the MEL until we block out prior to take-off and after that it is QRH. So for your 'doors closed' scenario it would be MEL until block out and that would involve 'doors open' again and having the MEL signed off by the engineers; we cannot apply our own MEL and do our own paperwork.

We do have a useful EICAS cross reference list that shows the related MEL that applies to an EICAS message which can help in making the decision whether to go or return to the gate once we have blocked out. For instance, AIR/GND SYS in the QRH deals with the airborne case but it does not say 'do not take off'. The MEL says that but, strictly speaking, it is not a requirement to check the MEL after block out (I'm not saying that I wouldn't, in fact I almost certainly would). The cross reference table tells me that it is a no dispatch item so that's a pretty simple decision in my mind. The table is located at the back of the QRH, so it's easy to check having completed any QRH actions and realising any implications of the EICAS message you've just dealt with.

[Junkflyer]

We have crew placarding in the MEL. It allows for some things to be deferred after block out.

[ACMS]

HKCAD:---


A330 MEL preamble:---


CRITERIA FOR DISPATCH (COMMANDER RESPONSIBILITY) MEL conditions and limitations do not relieve the Commander from determining that the aircraft is in a fit condition for safe operation with specific unserviceablities. By HKCAD regulatory definition, the MEL is applicable up until the time that the aircraft is moving under its own power for the purpose of preparing for take-off (i.e. from the start of taxi). If a failure occurs after the start of taxi and before the start of the take-off roll, the decision to continue the flight shall be subject to the Commander's judgement and good airmanship. The decision process shall include a review of the applicable FCOM and/or QRH procedures and any applicable MEL items (including the requirement for associated (m) and (o) procedures and limitations)

[vilas]

ACMS
What you quoted has always made me feel that MEL must be made applicable till take off because a failure brings in a lot of considerations which obviously cannot be done during taxi. For simple things like change of runway or clearance it is advised to stop the aircraft and make the changes and brief that part, then how the hell can anyone tackle MEL on the run? Leaving it to individual judgment is creating an possibility for an incident.

[Intruder]

From the 744 DDG (USA):
After engine start, EICAS Alert messages are the primary means of alerting the crew to non-normal conditions or improper configuration. Display of any Alert message requires accomplishment of the appropriate non-normal procedure by the crew. Upon completion of the procedure and prior to takeoff, the DDG should be consulted to determine if relief is available for continued operation with system faults displayed at the Alert Level.
So, we use engine start as the discriminator.

[farbre]

Interesting. Thanks, guys.

[FullWings]

We don’t discriminate between doors open/shut - our point of dispatch is “moving under own power” (Authority restriction), although the aircraft is actually certified for such after engine start.

Practically, you could look in the DDG and see what the consequences of the particular fault were and any engineering action that might be needed. If the answer was “none” and “none”, apart from an entry in the tech. log, then I would be tempted to “discover” this fault post-dispatch when operating under the QRH...

[Piltdown Man]

Your company has to give guidance as to when the MEL becomes operative. I've flown several different types for my employer and each had a different policy. My current type states that the MEL applies until "Off Blocks". Previous types have defined the start of the Take-off roll. Another defined the point as when taxiing commenced. But whether you go or not still rests with the crew and if you are at a maintenance base with spares and engineering support, a departure even though legal, may not be the most sensible thing to do.

PM

[ACMS]

Vilas----the basic application is that we will consult the MEL up until takeoff and if necessary ( most likely ) we will stop and pull out the book to look it up.

Basically anything that has an operational procedure requires re calculating data and a maintenance action requires going back to the gate.

Certainly we will consult our Engineers on the headset or company frequency or Satcom for assistance and guidance to help make our decision.

[Romasik]

In my company we have to apply MEL all the way to takeoff. If it has (M) items, go to the gate. No (M) - do it by youself and go ahead with the flight. Even in flight it's a good idea to consult MEL as there are quite important items there sometimes which are not mentioned on ECAM/EICAS or in QRH.

[Chesty Morgan]

Must've failed airborne sir!

[Amadis of Gaul]

We'll write it up at base.

[No Fly Zone]

Armchair pilots may have a little trouble drawing 'absolute' lines here. So help me, I cannot envision an experienced PIC having any trouble: If it does not look, smell, or feel right, including all relevant sub-systems at any point before that 'almost magic' V1, you simply do NOT go flying until the engineering experts hand you a little slip that says, "OK to Fly." To put it another way, '... cautious pilots become senior pilots; the rest are already dead...'

[Amadis of Gaul]

Are you kidding, NFZ? Only thing armchair pilots are good at is drawing absolute lines and making absolute statements.