UK Nationals being discriminated against?

[covec]

Why do other EU airlines insist on applications being made in their native tongue as well as insisting on being able to speak their native language?

English is the language of the air and sea..I would expect Red Card drills to be in English in a multi national aircraft.

I flew as a pax from mainland EU to the UK and the FO was non UK with a heavy foreign accent that did not come across very well on the PA.

No I do not vote UKIP..but maybe I will vote to leave the EU now..are we Brits being laughed at?

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

I've thought about this myself in the past.

Lufthansa, KLM and others often insist on fluency in their native tongues for would-be applicants.

I think it's a filter to favour nationals.

In the future as a Brit I'll be competing against the world to get a job as a pilot in my home country!!

I don't want to sound like a Little Englander though!!

After all, I might apply for jobs abroad as well, but I wish things were more balanced.

[skyship007]

The application form or page for any good job with a big international airline or major company will be in English.
It might be a plus to be able to speak the local Lingo, BUT if they are going to offer you a sensible contract, they will also send you to a good language school.
If the interview or web site is in Jalonese, it's just another P2F or P2type scam anyway.

I worked for a year in Germany and never said a word in German to the crew, as a true Brit should only speak two languages:
NORMAL ENGLISH and SLOW LOUD ENGLISH TO THE NATIVES!

PS: We did have one serious incident where are few simple words to the ground crew were shouted by yours truly when two plonkers with a refuel truck made a very serious mistake (Both fuel pumps on with a closed valve), so I just shouted, "ALARM" at max volume over the external PA speaker. The fuel feed hose blew out seconds after he woke up covering the offender in Avgas, but unfortunately he was not smoking on the job.

[dboy]

Covec, you are absolutely right. Me, i am coming from europe mainland and sometimes very frustrated with this issue. Europe should be one.....except if it concerns pilot jobs. Every country is mainteining this rule ( germany is number 1). This protective rule is really :mad:

[nonUKpilot]

I flew as a pax from mainland EU to the UK and the FO was non UK with a heavy foreign accent that did not come across very well on the PA.
So as a non-british pilot, I shouldn't be allowed to make a PA when we'll fly to or from UK, is that what you're saying?

I am just one of thousand of pilots around the world that had to STUDY ENGLISH along with my ATPL in order to get a seat on a liner.

This thread is just ridiculous and offending.

[perantau]

Pilot-controller comms & ICAO documents is one thing, but language in the cabin?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

In the UK, the 3rd & 4th rank seems appropriate.
In the case of Europe, should it be Spanish then?

[magicmick]

If the only people that you ever had to talk to were other company pilots then speaking only English would not be a huge problem. Unfortunately you will have to speak to local hr, ops, crewing, engineers etc who may or may not speak English.

Also you will be expected to live and survive in the country where you are based so you will need a reasonable understanding of the local language just to be able to arrange accommodation, buy food etc etc.

The airlines require all applicants to have an understanding of their language (not just UK applicants) so a Polish pilot applying to a French airline would have to speak French so it's not UK nationals that are being discriminated against.

[vikdream]

Why would you be discriminated against EU nationals when YOUR mother tongue is being used as an international language/language in aviation instead of many others?

No effort needed from you to learn another language. It is an (unfair?) gift. Many EU nationals (except maybe people from the Netherlands and the North) spend years learning English.

Why would you be discriminated? Have you thought about learning another language? Surely if a EU national can learn English you could learn, I don't know, Spanish? I personally know a few Brits flying in Spain, but obviously they bothered about learning a second language. That is what EU nationals do.

If tomorrow French was to become the new international language again and you were forced to speak French in the radio even in the UK, I am sure you would change your mind about discrimination. I am sure that after your first PA in French you would go to bed and think again about what you have just said here about a EU national doing PAs in English.

Regards

A EU national flying for a British airline

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

How many languages am I expected to learn?

A ridculous argument.

Almost everyone in the world already speaks English because it is the lingua franca of the world.

So they have the advantage. No doubt about it that it is easier for a Dutch, German or French person to get a job with a British airline than it is for me to get a job in Europe as a pilot.

That's why so many Brits go to the Middle East, where they don't insist we speak Arabic!!!. Because they are reasonable about these things.

[magicmick]

One of the reasons why English is so widely spoken is that we used to have a massive empire that covered much of the world, those days are sadly no more.

The more languages you learn to a reasonable standard, the more chances you have. There are plenty of British people (not just pilots) who are fluent in several languages, personally I’m only fluent in English (as much as anyone from Somerset can be) but I have a reasonable grasp of French and that’s my own fault for not getting off my backside and learning more when I was younger, no-one to blame but myself.

The simple fact remains that if you wish to live and work in country where English is not spoken as a 1st language you are going to have to get a grasp of the local language just to survive rather than expecting every national of that country to speak your language.

[covec]

By fortunate accident of birth I am a native English speaker.

By fortunate or unfortunate accident of history the Brits were expansionist Empire Builders resulting in the spread of English to nations with a more air minded approach than others. E.g. I note that on some aviation job sites the UK is disproportionately represented as having more operators.

I admit to being somewhat bitter as whilst on a train to start my MCC having been accepted for that coveted first FO slot I was telephoned and given the news that the Danish operator flying UK and Danish registered aircraft within the UK for a UK business was to go to a Dane. I hope he pays our taxes.

With the refugee crisis in mind I remember being aghast at a young chap wanting to come to the UK to train to be a pilot once his Asylum Status had been confirmed. I would bet a month of Happy Hours that he will get funding help from us Brits.

The airline that I flew as a pax with I will be avoiding now if I can. Having come up the old BCPL UK Modular route I am surprised that this well known UK airline has taken on foreigners when we in the UK have UK born wannabees.

[magicmick]

I can understand your frustration, however thanks to European employment law the UK airline that you flew with has no choice but to accept non Brit EU applicants if they speak British to an appropriate standard and have the correct licence/ ratings, they have to be treated the same as you and I.

Equally if we learn a non Brit EU language to an appropriate level and we have the correct licence/ ratings we have to be treated in the same manner by non Brit airlines.

[AMS]

Is this discrimination or not?

1) You part of the EU ans the standard Language in Aviation is English and your prof is 6.

You apply to any Scandanavian, German, Danish, Spain etc - there is a direct requirement for you to speak their language. If you are not able to then you cannot apply. However, they are able to apply to jobs in the UK?

Grossly unfair to be fair.

2) Age - is totally unfair and illegal - yet everyone uses it. It is generally said to be used for identification purposes, but any really average person would see the sense of using license numbers as a means for identification.

just my 2p worth

[kirungi1]

magicmick; I presume its got to be other issues in between that vet their frustration and not this "English language discrimination" issue. I would hold onto my competitiveness and sharpen my skills that sort of thing.

[May88]

-Redacted-

[OhNoCB]

I don't think its discrimination against UK nationals.

If German airline A is hiring and requires you to speak German, it is likely that they are 'discrimination' against the Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italians etc too - if you see where I am going?

It IS a way of giving preference or advantage to natives, but the ONLY reason that the UK or other English native countries don't (can't) 'discriminate' or 'favour' in this way is because anyone with a commercial licence in Europe should be able to speak English anyway.

[152wiseguy]

It might not be discrimination. It could be that the Dane was judged to be a better pilot for the job in question.

It is not that difficult to learn a foreign language and if you want to work in another country you'll most likely have to learn one.

If EU pilots manage to learn English, why is covec unable to learn another language?

Also why is it a problem for covec if a desperate refugee has dreams and aspirations? Or should anyone fleeing a war or famine just be grateful for a job cleaning toilets?

It's a bummer being passed over for a job but I'd suggest covec takes a look at himself first before blaming foreigners for his situation.

[2006]

You make the assumption that every pilot in Europe is somehow Level 6 in English and able to dispute you a seat in a UK airliner.

That is far from true, there is a big percentage that would be unable to pass a screening/interview precissely because of the language.
Lots have level 4 or 5 ON PAPER ONLY, when it comes to the real thing probably less.

The only ones that are in big numbers able to dispute you a seat would be as some ppruner pointed out, Dutch or Scandi, which I believe learn English from a very early age, and even then, they would, in my opinion, be at disadvantage because although they have a good level of English, it is not their mother tongue, and that shows on a selection process and interview.


As for being discriminated, as somebody else pointed out, all non local lingo speakers are affected, not only you, and although not too convenient for me personally, or for you, I guess it makes sense to be able to speak it for all the reasons our colleague pointed out.

If I go to UK to work in a Uk airline I am required to speak the local lingo too, which happens to be also the aeronautical/operational language.

2006

[appleACE]

It's hardly directly specifically at Britons since it would be a limitation on anyone who wasn't from that particular country. I would imagine that it is simply because it's a lot easier for general operations in the airport if you speak the local language. For example if you need to say something to the refuelling guy or baggage handlers it's a lot better if you can just talk to them directly rather than having to find someone to translate for you.

[covec]

I take the (well made) point that say, a Portuguese pilot would need to say learn German in order to fly in Germany - as well as English of course.

Perhaps my contention is more of a suspicion that once again the Brits are alone in applying the spirit of Equal Opportunity - unless someone corrects me I just do not believe that it is an entirely level playing field e.g. even if I learnt French I am not certain that that would "cut the mustard" with the French.

Re the lost FO slot - sure, the guy was far better qualified. His Danish Captain slot had gone & the Danes moved him to the UK to take up an FO slot that I was already preparing for i.e. MCC & awaiting the Type Rating course notes.

With 28 years flying as non-pilot aircrew (but incl. 25 hours RHS on HS125) in the Royal Air Force & 9 years GA instructing I feel comfortable with my Airmanship & flying abilities.

Having received both a Joint Aviation Professionalism Award post Desert Storm & a Queen's New Year Honours Award for Meritorious Service I guess that someone else feels the same?!

No matter. Thank you all for your input! Just a contentious thought that I wanted to get off the ground - this is a Flying Forum after all!!!

Bon vol! Volo securo! Vuelo seguro! Sikkur flyvetur!

Safe flight!

[B77L]

First of all, as somebody has already pointed out, that is no discrimination, I need German to work in Germany just like you Brits. Time for you to learn a second language, just like everybody else in Europe.
Equal Opportunity in the UK? :E easyJet perhaps. Do you really want to talk about Equal Opportunity in BA? Or even CityFlyer? Or Virgin? Equal Opportunity as long as you get a British passport.
Btw, in the ME they just need pilots, like easyJet and Ryanair in Europe. If they put Arabic among the requirements nobody would fly those aircrafts. They are not reasonable, they are forced to do so.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

B77L

You've missed the point old chap.

The point is that all pilots speak English. Of varying degrees of proficiency. But English nevertheless.

That is the point. That puts us Brits at a disadvantage.

Do you want me learn Hungarian as well?

I would need to speak several languages (fluently) before I could apply to European airlines, who unashamedly favour their own nationals, despite being part of the EU.

That does make sense?

[magicmick]

Hi Covec

Sorry to hear that you lost out to a great dane, their type rating and skippers experience probably more than made up for the fact that English was not their first language. Though no-one owes any of us a job, it must have been hugely frustrating to lose out at such a late stage.

Like you, I served in the military though I only completed 22 years, I was not aircrew (engineer), I served in the Fleet Air Arm rather than the RAF and the only honours I ever got were the standard chest full of campaign medals, long(ish) service and good(ish) conduct and jubilee medals etc.

Do you have a decent network of serving and ex aircrew who can help you out with information on future opportunities?

I wish you well in your continued search and genuinely hope that you find what you are looking for.

[EC DKN]

English people are too lazy with languages and this post is just a reflection of that!!!! Please start to realize that all the other pilots around have had to make an effort once to learn english!!!!

[B77L]

It does make sense, as it does with BA and Virgin. I'm Italian and still need German to work in Germany, Dutch in the NL, Spanish in Spain, and so on. So a foreigner working for BA (somewhen in the future...maybe) must speak English, a foreigner working for Lufthansa must not speak German. Let me remind you, though, that as far as I know no foreigner has succeeded in getting a place in the BA FPP, or in the CityFlyer scheme, or in Virgin MPL, am I right? So, you see, either discrimination or nationals protection works for you just like for mainland Europe.

P.S. You don't need to speak several languages, you could choose one in order to get more chances and even open your mind. What you've said, to be honest and with no offense, is childish.

[Coffin Corner]

EC DKN you talk nonsense. Whether we like it or not discrimination is alive and well within the European aviation fraternity. As has already been said here, if you could speak every European language you just try getting a job with Air France if you are English, you try and get a job with any national carrier, it is virtually impossible. I wonder that the percentage of non-nationals is within every national carrier in Europe? 1% in Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, TAP etc? I bet it's up near 40% within BA. Infact it's so rife in UK airlines that I am actually surprised when I hear an English accent.

[go.around]

I can understand the sentiments of covec there does seem to be a massive door slammed in an english speaking only persons face if they do not have another language to icao level 4 equivalent for a non uk european carrier.

To be honest it would be far wiser for an airline to be sensible and invite people whether the person knows the language of the carrier i.e. German or French and ask the pilot if on the offer of a job would they be willing to learn the language of the country in their own time. I am sure most would jump at the chance this should be the win win scenario.

As for English currently used this goes all the way back to ICAO and the decision was made at that and pointless to discuss it. There are countries which do not bother with this such as China where plenty of chat with ATC is in the native language and to be frank if they are talking level 4 English we might as well all give up.

I have heard of ways people manipulate a system floor to make it look like they have level 4 english at a good standard and reality is they cannot converse properly. I have personally met someone from a European nation during a training course and to be honest I spent more time trying to confirm what was been said.

As for discrimination I have never seen an industry which is riddled with so many undercover forms of discrimination with Eastern European carriers preferring not to take Western Europeans .... Also there seems to be a ridiculous impression that people over 40 are finished and not worthy of an interview... then comes the discrimination due to the sex of a person ...

No common sense is been used by airlines

[Reverserbucket]

"as far as I know no foreigner has succeeded in getting a place in the BA FPP"


I'm not sure about FPP but the old CEP scheme at BA had non-UK citizens on it. One I recall was a Danish young lady who made it clear that BA was her second choice and she would be jumping ship to DLH as soon as she could.


There are so many Dutchies at BA that I'm surprised there is not a requirement for non-Dutch crew to learn it (makes the conversational parts of long sectors more socially productive). One of the reasons for this is the relationship (not simultaneously) between the two big ATO's in the UK and an NL based 'virtual' training provider. I'm certain that courses through this provider are available to non-Dutch (I think they must be) however, I'm not aware of any that have got through selection if any have applied. Same for the other Dutch schools. It's an interesting dynamic - and one I think is probably lost on the British students who don't appreciate they are all competing for the same jobs but actually, may be disadvantaged in favour of non-UK graduates when applying for BA/EZY/RYR because of this 'arrangement'.


If you want an example of how the British have been treated within the EU, look at how KLMuk pilots seniority was acknowledged by the parent company when the airline was joined with KLC.


The basic truth is that if you are an EU citizen and you speak English to at least ICAO Level 4, and are suitably qualified technically, discrimination, positive or otherwise is unlawful within the EU. So all this talk of unfairness must be completely unfounded ;)

[Global_Global]

I totally agree! It is an utter disgrace: I think all the Brits should leave the ME3 carriers, Ryanair (!) as it is Irish, Cathay Pacific and any other airline with a G tail and leave it to the locals! Mmm hold on...I think that there are more pomms abroad than the other way around... Ohh well this UKIP stuff sounds good!

Ohh and this thing: If you want an example of how the British have been treated within the EU, look at how KLMuk pilots seniority was acknowledged by the parent company when the airline was joined with KLC. This has more to do with Union tactics and nothing with nationality.... At the moment the Dutch version of Balpa is scr3wing the Martinair pilots (99% Dutch!) even harder than any KLMuk pilot has ever been done :yuk:

ps Let's leave the Scottish routes of BA to a New Caldonian too :D

[Global_Global]

I'm certain that courses through this provider are available to non-Dutch (I think they must be) however, I'm not aware of any that have got through selection if any have applied. Same for the other Dutch schools Next time do research before talking b@ll@cks... The arrangement that is applicable is one with a local dutch bank that only finances people based in the Netherlands (read: not nationality!). This arrangement that allowed people to borrow for training without any collateral allowed an almost unlimited amount of based in the Netherlands people to start training. Bank burned it's fingers and now the financing arrangement is less flexible...

It's an interesting dynamic - and one I think is probably lost on the British students who don't appreciate they are all competing for the same jobs but actually, may be disadvantaged in favour of non-UK graduates when applying for BA/EZY/RYR because of this 'arrangement'. It is probably lost on you but Ryanair is Irish so I dont understand why, in you logic, Brits should be allowed to work there?? :rolleyes:

[Reverserbucket]

Actually, I'm quite close GG but thanks all the same. I agree though, the KLMuk issues were driven by the Dutch union and that Dutch financing limited training to NL residents. Both have implications for non-union/non-Dutch/non-NL residents in a free market. Isn't that the point being made? I am aware that Ryanair who employ a lot of people from a lot of places and who have various contractual arrangements with a number of agencies is an Irish registered airline and that Ireland is a member of the EU. I think you may have missed my point though and that is that (despite my earlier partly tongue in cheek remarks), all suitably qualified EU citizens should be (by law) eligible for employment by all EU registered carriers. I don't think this is the case at the moment and the EC has a lot of work to do to ensure that the same rights that BA, Easy and RYR rightly practice in terms of recruiting from across the entire Eurozone are also observed by everyone else - without union, financial, residency or any other impediment. I used the Dutch example only because it has been something I have been very much a part of for the last twenty-five years and I apologise if I have caused offence.

[Edgington]

Brits discriminate against other europeans as well, they don't recognise an european elp level 6. Despite being born and raised in England, but did my flight training in Holland and have a dutch easa license. I now have to pay £135 to redo my elp if I want to convert to a uk easa license. Thank you CAA….

[EC DKN]

National carriers don't hire pilots! Air France, Iberia, etc hire but hardly ever! What is the fact to be worried about that? Every pilot should have known before starting any carrier what are the chances and how the pilot market works! Language requirements are not any discrimination is just a requirement!

[Coffin Corner]

They don't hire pilots? LOL are you serious? Are you living on planet Zorg? How long have you been in this industry young man? If you can't see the discrimination that's alive and well then you need thicker glasses. And before you start judging, I've been in this industry long enough to see it, so answer my question, what percentage of foreign nationals make up the numbers in national flag carriers around Europe compared to British Airways?

[EC DKN]

How many pilots hire IBERIA???? 120 pilots in 10 years? How many Air France??? And now how many Ryanair, Easyjet, Flybe, Emirates, Flydubai, etc... And I agree with you there is a discrimination compared with BA!

Coffin I haven't judge anyone (I haven't mentioned u in any of my post by the way)! I am just a PPL but I know quite a few Iberian pilots and they haven't any chance with BA due to their poor english!

[Coffin Corner]

EC DKN you appear to be misconstruing the argument, let me spell it out in plain English (pardon the pun).
How many pilots in the following airline?
Iberia - 2000?
KLM - 4000?
Air France - 4000?
Lufthansa - 3000?
TAP - 2000?
Brussels Airlines - 1500?
SAS - 1500?
LOT - 1000?
Alitalia - 2000?

The list goes on, but you tell me how many English nationals work for those airlines? Now it doesn't matter if they only recruited 120 in the last ten years, or 5000 in the last 50 years, the question is the same, how many English nationals work for those airlines? Less than 1%? You could bet your house that it is that figure. How many English nationals would frequent those airlines should we speak every European language? The same figure. Now if your Iberian friends taught themselves English they could jump in BA in a heartbeat, but if my friends and myself taught ourselves Spanish, how many could jump into Iberia in a heartbeat? A big fat zero. The European pilot market is a one way gravy train, that's reality.

p.s. You don't have to tell me about Flybe, I already know we are being overrun with Dutch nationals, but let it be known I have no issues with this, I am pointing out how it is, not what my own feelings are.

[B767PL]

This thread is filled with arrogance.

[EC DKN]

Coffin you have the reason :D:D:D:D:D:D

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

If only we could use the Freedom of Information Act to get these airlines to release their pilot data, that would be very interesting.

I'm pretty sure it would show British airlines are, on the whole, being pretty open to foreign nationals.

I think it would show most European airlines of being heavily biased to their own nationals (illegal in a modern EU).

I strongly believe ALL British airlines should do the same until the other European airlines give British nationals the same opportunities that our airlines give them.

No, I'm not a little Englander, I believe in freedom of movement. One day I want to work abroad as well.

BUT I want fairness for British pilots, many of whom are looking for jobs.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You guys seriously think BA doesn't prefer to recruit British pilots where possible?

Maybe you're just not good enough :E

[152wiseguy]

What a great thread everybody.. :D

toL1tXrLA1c

[B77L]

Still nobody answered my question: how many non-UK pilots in BA, CityFlyer, Virgin? Maybe I'm wrong, just wondering.

CaptainCriticalAngle, you want fairness? Who are you, exactly? I've been learning German, in Germany, since last August, that's my third language and I've still got some room for improvement with French, that would be my fourth, if I had time. It was my choice after getting nothing in the UK, and believe me or not, if I applied to any German airline I would get more chances to step in than in your equal opportunities-prone country. Twice I spent money and time to go to Manchester for CityFlyer, what I've got after the final stage? "We regret to inform you that we can't process your application any further. If you're still interested in our integrated course, please let us know. The results of your tests show that you're eligible for a direct entry in our self-sponsored programme." That's fairness and equal opportunities in your country.
You Brits have been lingering for decades on the assumption that another language plays hardly any role in a multicultural, English-speaking world, that's the truth.

[redsnail]

English is not the only ICAO language. There are many ICAO approved languages.

English is a requirement for international travel but....

From the ICAO site.

"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."

My bolding.

Source. ICAO (http://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigation/pages/peltrgfaq.aspx#anchor14)

[Coffin Corner]

Swarm you're missing the point by about as far away as you could possibly get. You notice the only people offended and getting their arses in a tizz are the pilots that it doesn't affect? Why is that? Because you know damn well the truth is being spoken, and swarm do you care to answer my original question that I've now asked TWICE, and now a third time. How many English pilots hold jobs in those very airlines you're on about? Less than 1% is what I'm claiming, so if you know any different then please enlighten us. Also why are you so offended by it? It's fact. What do you want me to say? The sooner the UK pulls the plug on the European Union the better? There's nothing to be offended about, all we're asking is that we get the same and fair crack of the whip abroad as our national flag carrier and other carriers afford other EU citizens in line with European law, it's as plain and simple as that, and if that offends you, well tough tit.

[wiggy]

I don't know any pilot that being non-uk born is working for Flybe or BA for example ,

...Can we put the BA stuff to bed?

I can't comment on current recruitment but last weekend, having said hi to a Dutch national BA captain who has been in BA well over twenty years I then.spent an hour talking about the Shoreham accident with another BA captain who is a US national (been in BA 20 years'ish, before you ask as right to work live in EU /UK due family circumstances.)

I've just done a three crew long haul trip where neither of my colleagues was a Brit, the checker on my last sim wasn't a Brit. It's certainly not unusual to have a least one none Brit on the Flight deck on a trip..and I haven't yet mentioned the Irish, probably because there are too many to count....

[plikee]

Unfortunately all the Brits think they are always discriminated. People taking their benefits, immigration, now the language.. All coming from people that hundreds of years ago invaded countries all around the world, exploiting everything it was available at that time.

Equal opportunities? F:mad: me, you are the ONLY country I know that asks for religion, skin colour (which has white British, white Irish, white others and others as option), sex orientation, etc, for nearly every job in your country.

This thread is ridiculous as many posts here as well. A new language can always be learned, you just have to make the effort. There are many interactive computer apps that can help you.

As other people said, if they are hiring in German and I don't know German, is that discriminating against me? No, that's only requirements. Like flying hours. Or are you going to say as well that airlines discriminate low hour pilots that just finished the CPL? Don't think you will. What do this guys and gals do? They build their hours. What do you have to do in your case to get a job in a foreign airline that requires local language? Learn a new language, simple! Just make the EFFORT

[covec]

plikee..I started the Thread and in retrospect the Thread Title was inaccurate.

I flew as a pax on Sunday with a well known UK Regional and the FO was non UK.

With all of the UK wannabees out there I just started wondering how "open" other EU airlines are given that LOT, Wideroe, SAS and Lufthansa all wanted applications in their native language when I applied to them.

A French FI that trained with me in Scotland was turned down by Air France because..and I quote..you should not have trained in the UK.

I wonder if the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans are as accommodating re foreign pilots.

The thread has been quite revealing in that I now realise what depth of change has occurred since my parents voted for a Common Market and not a Political Union. I accept that times have clearly changed. Separate issue.

If I learnt another language it would have to be Gaelic!!!

PS The Portugese had the first global empire. And the Spanish, French, Belgian and Dutch didnae do too bad either! Or the Vikings for that matter!

[magicmick]

Yeah but what did the Romans ever do for us?

[EC DKN]

Plenty of french people from PAT are being hired by Flybe. Flybe prefer pilots trained under the UK CAA for sure without any preferences of the nationality!

[Northern Highflyer]

Also there seems to be a ridiculous impression that people over 40 are finished and not worthy of an interview

and there lies a whole new thread....

[172_driver]

Yet none has mentioned the benefits of speaking the local language. Delays, diversions, technical problems, onboard safety procedures, customer service issues etc. may need to be communicated to the passengers. Having a flight crew member that speaks a mutual language with the passengers can diffuse escalating situations. French, Spanish, Italians.. it's not a given they speak English. I guess it's called service, perhaps even safety. And I am quite aware that plenty of low cost carriers couldn't give a rat's ass about that, thank you.

[733driver]

A lot of misconceptions here.

Someone claimed the Lufthansa OM-B was in German. Not true. However, LH do expect you to speak German because they are a Germany airline, with many German Customers, German ground staff etc. So it does make sense that as a pilot who works of them you speak the language of the people you work with. Also, they expect you to stay "forever" as opposed to many other "expat" jobs.

(on a related note: LH will not be hiring anyone any time soon. They have just set up Eurowings EU in Austria in an attempt to win the "race to the bottom" when it comes to pilot pay and conditions)

Somebody mentioned how airlines in the UAE are so much better because they don't expect you to speak Arabic. What a silly comparison. Over there we are all "guest workers". People from all over the world come there because they don't have locals that can or want to do the jobs. And since everybody there comes from all over the place, the local language is not the common ground, but English is. Unlike in France, Spain and Portugal. Even there customers are most from all over the place.

It has been mentioned that many Dutch pilots fly for BA, for example. Of course they do. Thea all speak perfect English. And many of them work for airlines in Germany. Guess what, they speak German. I don't see any discrimination going on here. I really don't.

Now, I would not be surprised if it was hard for a non-national to join IBERIA or Air France for example, even with good local language skills. That is not ok. But a Dutch pilot flying for LH or BA if he or she is as good or better than the local applicant, why not?

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

There's a touch of self-righteousness to some of the posts on here, including the one above this one.

Would you like to elaborate on how many British or Irish pilots work for KLM?

Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?

And with regards to the UAE, I don't quite understand your logic. The airlines there could easily insist on English and Arabic, but they know it would be a barrier to many applicants.

That is exactly why that principle IS used by the European airlines, to favour their nationals.

I repeat what I said though, British airlines really should start doing the same and favouring British pilots and should NOT employ foreigners until the balance is redressed.

[wiggy]

I repeat what I said though, British airlines really should start doing the same and favouring British pilots and should NOT employ foreigners until the balance is redressed.

OK, for the sake of argument what mechanism do you suggest they use to do that?

(I'd suggest it would be best to avoid getting the CEO/ Board/Head of Flight Ops/Head of recruitment involved in a court case)

[172_driver]

Would you like to elaborate on how many British or Irish pilots work for KLM?

Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?

You don't speak the local language, as 733driver said.

Understandable that you feel upset, since English is readily available to learn from a very young age in most European countries. Harder for Brits to learn the local lingo of same countries. But the opportunity is there.