What's happened?

[PingDit]

Just left my local pub (so worse for wear!). Met 3 guys, one of which was wearing 2 rings in his pierced bottom lip, had a pony tail and was really racist in his opinion.

It transpired that all 3 were serving members of the RAF.

WTF?

[Rhino power]

...Met 3 guys, one of which was wearing 2 rings in his pierced bottom lip, had a pony tail...

It transpired that all 3 were serving members of the RAF.

WTF?

Really? I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that lip rings and pony tails are now acceptable for male (or female for that matter, pony tails excepted) service personnel in the RAF?

-RP

[DITYIWAHP]

Sounds just a little bit made up to me...

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Just left my local pub (so worse for wear!). Met 3 guys, one of which was wearing 2 rings in his pierced bottom lip, had a pony tail......

It transpired that all 3 were serving members of the RAF.

WTF?

Maybe they're just back from an exchange tour with the RNLAF"...................

Although things have changed a bit so maybe not;

New regulations already ban troop use of marijuana and hashish--even though the drugs are tolerated in Dutch civilian life. Since August, first-time military offenders get a warning, and dismissal follows a second offense.

Current rules still allow ponytails and earrings for many recruits serving in the Netherlands, but grooming rules are being tightened. Soldiers, airmen and sailors serving with United Nations or NATO forces abroad must keep their hair short to conform with international standards.

The air force has already gotten a head start on the army and navy in image reshaping. All air force personnel with long hair had to get trims by Sept. 1.

Adriaan Meijer cut off his blond ponytail recently when he joined the air force as a fighter pilot trainee.

"I was strongly advised to get it cut because where I was at, it wasn't considered acceptable," he said. "It's like working for a company now; you choose to take the job and these are the rules and you have to follow them."

Meijer said that during his conscript days eight years ago, "people were high on hashish most of the time or they just sat around and drank coffee."

Life these days on the air force base is quite different.

[Pontius Navigator]

Two rings, flt lt?

Ponytail, RAF Provost under cover?

[Tankertrashnav]

and was really racist in his opinion...

Nobody so far has found that bit unbelievable? Hmmmm

[PingDit]

The guys were definitely RAF as I know the local station well. I also asked them questions about their trade which left me in no doubt that they were indeed serving. The pony tail was very short, bunched on top of his head and I guess he could remove the lip rings for work. It just seems that standards have slipped so much.

[muppetofthenorth]

The guys were definitely RAF as I know the local station well. I also asked them questions about their trade which left me in no doubt that they were indeed serving. The pony tail was very short, bunched on top of his head and I guess he could remove the lip rings for work. It just seems that standards have slipped so much.

That's more correctly called a 'topknot', rather than a ponytail. It doesn't take particularly long hair to be able to have that style (though it does take a certain absence of sense), so I have little doubt that the guy would be able to abide by QRs when in uniform.

As for the lip ring, if the piercing is pre-existing to his time in uniform, then it's a permanent hole. Again, when not in uniform he can do what he likes with that.

Standards have slipped? Or perhaps the modern RAF is more inclusive and puts more emphasis on what a person can do in their trade, rather than looking pretty for a parade?

[AnglianAV8R]

A few years back, actually probably quite a few, I remember being indignant to hear that new recruits to the army were excused boots and allowed to wear trainers for the initial few weeks of training. Apparently, their poor little feet weren't used to such hardship, after a childhood in trainers. I wonder how many of those lads went on to fight like Trojans in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

[brokenlink]

Only a thought, could they be ex RAF now employed as civvie contractors? That would account for their knowledge of the local base if they worked there.

[dagowly]

Sound almost like civvie techies.

[PingDit]

Definitely serving members. Came up in the conversation.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Well then there you go. Some people who are part of a very large and diverse organization have personal standards and views not shared by some other people.

[Stanwell]

I liked that..
"Some people have personal standards... etc."

Ahem! Are we talking about military servicemen?
What next?, I ask - issue make-up and uniforms in a more flattering shade?

[Bob Viking]

I feel absolutely sure that, whilst at work, their friendly SWO ensures they adhere to the correct standards of dress. Outside of work does it really matter?

I'm on leave right now and have a beard to rival Ming the Merciless. Have my standards slipped?

BV

[PingDit]

I take all of the points on board, however....
When I joined in 1971, we were told in no uncertain terms that whether on or off duty, we still represented the RAF and all it stood for. That we should always set a good example and be a credit to the Force. I still feel that dressing in that manner whilst openly declaring the fact that they're members of the RAF doesn't shed a good light on them or the RAF. The open racism was an entirely different matter but still one of concern (I feel).
I can also understand that times move on but can't help but feel that standards have slipped one heck of a lot.

[muppetofthenorth]

Standards have changed.

Change. It's something that a certain generation is stereotypically bad at accepting.

[Bob Viking]

I don't believe standards have changed. Times have changed. Fashions have changed. My parents generation would have been alarmed at the fashions of the 80s (as should we all be - it is the decade that fashion forgot after all). Their parents generation would have been alarmed at their sartorial choices in the 60s. I could continue ad infinitum.

I'm afraid that whenever I read threads like this I just believe it makes the poster look old and out of touch.

I'm not saying I like the sound of the fashions you have described, I just respect their right to choose to look as stupid as they like. Like it or lump it this does not reflect a lowering of military standards. It is just an acceptance of modern times.

I do not condone the racism but any man who has hair long enough to make a top knot is clearly not a high intelligence individual!

BV:E
(Is there an emoticon to show judgmentalness (is that a word?) and pompousness?!)

[Biggus]

Reference post 13.

As an aside, for what it's worth, I don't think it's accurate to describe the RAF as "..a very large organization..".

Back to the topic.

[Training Risky]

Which bit is inaccurate?...'large', or 'organisation':E

And BTW, one man's racism is another man's right to a private opinion, providing he doesn't harrass or threaten anyone. What did the pony-tail wearing nonce say?

[BEagle]

Bob Viking wrote:
Their parents generation would have been alarmed at their sartorial choices in the 60s. I could continue ad infinitum.

Not sure about that! When I was at University, hippy-chic girls in cheesecloth blouses and flared, low-slung hipster jeans looked pretty darn good! Particularly when certain undergarments were considered optional....:ok:

Beats the heck out of today's Vicki Pollards and their facial scrap iron....:uhoh:

[strake]

Aye, now you're talking, cheesecloth blouses,hipster jeans...and Metal Guru on the radio...

[dctyke]

Standards have changed? Don't you remember the long sideburns and longer hair of the 70's RAF. Never get away with that now!

[BEagle]

Having been incarcerated in the Towers for a year between leaving public school in 1968 and starting at London University in 1969, I can assure you that the culture shock of the pulchritude of those hippy-chic girls was absolutely delightful!

There were some Alvin Stardust look-alike blokes with silly sideburns and long hair around back then, but most looked pretty scruffy. As did those ridiculous 'Viva Zapata' Mexican moustaches affected by some.

[snippy]

....Wot no tattoos on the neck / feet / legs/ sleeve tats etc etc ....


As observed all the time at BZN......( boys & girls.....)

[smujsmith]

Mr Beagle Sir, I salute your erudite and accurate narrative of what was both your, and my "formative days" ! I didn't attend "the towers" but certainly spent a happy 3 years strapping in those who did, and enjoying the off duty time, as they also did. People who dress to shock - pony tails, top knots, filigree or scaffold face, bones through the nose, the list goes on, have been there for years. The Teds in my father in laws days gave him some "cause for concern. I was taken aback at two fellow apprentices enjoying a dance to George Harrison's "My sweet lord" cheek to cheek in No2 Wing NAAFI bar in 1971. Bottom line, whatever the OPs impression of those he encountered, all might not have been what it seemed. I'm sure that some "blending in" is now considered acceptable, particularly after the brutal actions that led to the murder of Lee Rigby. Surely the criteria is their competence and ability in performing their duties, and not an impression they may leave in a passing jaw wag in a local bar.

Smudge

By the way, do you know where Mrs Smudge might acquire some cheesecloth shirts ???

[JointShiteFighter]

Without wanting to sound like one of those whiny old gits, surely claiming to be a member of the Armed Forces, and then having an openly racist opinion brings your Service in to disrepute?

They must be very good at concealing their racism in work and while around colleagues or else I suspect they would be ex-RAF, with no hope of getting another job as nobody wants to employ a racist after getting chucked out of their last job for racist behaviour.

[cockney steve]

I'm on leave right now and have a beard to rival Ming the Merciless. Have my standards slipped?
And has your helmet got the horn? :} curious, that's all.

[Bob Viking]

You've scared me now. Or should that be scarred?! I can't even imagine how that would look!

Ironically I actually shaved today. I looked good before but now I look bloody great.

BV (insert smug smiley face here!)

[Army Mover]

We had an Army passenger turn up at Gutersloh on the air trooping bus; he went into the toilets and changed into something really different to what he was wearing when he arrived (torn t-shirt, smelly jeans, trainers with the toe-end cut away and safety pins stuck into his ears and lips).

When he walked past me towards the check-in desk, I was speechless and before I could do anything, the SAMO (who was stood just behind me) reacted with remarkable speed, to ask who he was, where he was from, how he got to the terminal; then promptly escorted him back to the bus he had just got off and told him in no uncertain terms that the Services had standards, he did not represent those and that he should go back to his unit and report to his RSM and tell him what had happened; SAMO got a round of applause from everybody in the terminal.:ok:

[Bigbux]

Definitely serving members. Came up in the conversation.

I used to live in Warminster. I once bumped into a group of well-spoken, well built young men with short hair, and one of them wasn't wearing brogues with his corduroys. I was shocked.

[ORAC]

'Twas ever thus. I can remember passing a group of punk rockers and goths in town and being surprised when one of the goths brought herself to attention and said "Good evening sir!".

They were all SACs and SACWs from my Sqn and she was one of my flight. Totally different from her demure smart working persona.

[JagRigger]

I once put a line in one of my SAC's assessments saying something along the lines of 'he expends a great deal of time and effort maintaining his highly individual appearance when off duty'


Enough said ?

[Duncano]

Hair still has to be well cut and trimmed and sideburns are only allowed to be halfway down the length of the ear. Definitely no pony tails. I have more hair issues with the pilots than the ground crew. The racist accusation is also very worrying in the current climate of equality and diversity; even if they think it they should not voice it in public.

[The Oberon]

Been there, done that and got the T-shirt. In 1965, As a 19 year old J.T. at Wittering, me and 5 others piled into my old Ford Zephyr to go to a Jimi Hendrix concert at Spalding. We all thought we looked the dog's bolleaux, resplendent in our kaftans and loon pants. With hindsight we looked like idiots as the mandatory 60's short back and sides rather gave the game away.

[Tankertrashnav]

Met up in a bar in 1967 or thereabouts with some old school chums who had all gone to uni. I stood out in regulation sports jacket and slacks, short back and sides etc, whereas they to a man were dressed as Oberon described, with hair down their backs. One of them asked me "Dont you resent having to look just like everyone else?" I slowly looked round the group and smiled. They had the grace to laugh!

Re racism - I dont find any excuse for it even when held as a private opinion (which it rarely is). From the very beginning of my career I had black blokes serving under me and found them every bit as good as their white counterparts. Later on one of the best NCO tradesmen on our tanker squadron was a Sikh ( he also did a good sideline in servicing cars in his spare time). The perception of the services as a safe harbour for racism annoys me. I was staggered shortly after leaving when an acquaintance, on finding out I was ex RAF, said "In that case, might I interest you in joining the National Front?" He got a very swift reply!

[DX Wombat]

any man who has hair long enough to make a top knot is clearly not a high intelligence individual!
Really? Do I detect a hint of jealousy or worse, bigotry? Never judge a book by its cover.

[charliegolf]

I once put a line in one of my SAC's assessments saying something along the lines of 'he expends a great deal of time and effort maintaining his highly individual appearance when off duty'

Why on earth would you do that?

CG

[Courtney Mil]

From a friend's 1369 circa 1984.

"Flt Lt R**** has naturally long hair."

[camelspyyder]

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."


No not A Ppruner...


Socrates. (the Greek one)


The older generation have been out of touch with the new for 2400 years.

plus ca change...

[Tankertrashnav]

Regiment officer, a well known "character" famous for his flowing locks at Catterick, c 1965, was told by the Commandant (station commander) to get his hair cut. Replied in a hurt tone "But sir, the chaps get their hair cut, officers wash theirs!" Come to think of it, he may have transferred in from the army, which would explain a lot.

I remember my squadron boss (later an ACM) nearly having a stroke when three long haired blokes in flying suits came and sat down at an adjacent table at breakfast in the mess at Akrotiri. He was gently restrained from adminstering a bollocking by someone pointing out that these were civvies, a Canberra crew from the bunch at Bournemouth, I think.

[Wingswinger]

I just believe it makes the poster look old and out of touch.

Every time I read or hear comments along those lines I always think of the unspoken assumption in them that it is a good and desirable thing to be "in touch". I hold that it isn't always. Unless one is on a rugby pitch and something the size and speed of Jonah Lomu is fast approaching.

[Bigbux]

Every time I read or hear comments along those lines I always think of the unspoken assumption in them that it is a good and desirable thing to be "in touch". I hold that it isn't always. Unless one is on a rugby pitch and something the size and speed of Jonah Lomu is fast approaching.

No, but the amusing thing about this thread is the unconscious "self-outing" of those who are permanently encased in a loathing of anybody who does not look like them.

[Union Jack]

"Flt Lt R**** has naturally long hair." - Courtney

And now? Reminds me of the junior officer asking the follically challenged senior officer, "Excuse me, Sir, but is that a rabbit on your head", to which the senior officer responded, "What the bloody hell are you talking about?", only for the junior officer to answer, "I'm terribly sorry, Sir. From a distance it looked like a hair"!:ok:

Jack

[Danny42C]

Jack,

In the years following WWII, the German balding veteran had one devastating riposte to youthful mockery - "Stahlhelm !"

Danny.