North Sea strike?

[heli1]

24 hours since BALPA balloted on pilot strike action and no Pruner comment??
Turkeys voting for Christmas or common sense prevailing?

[Tango123]

HeliHub North Sea pilots consider strike action (http://helihub.com/2015/08/18/north-sea-pilots-consider-strike-action/)

I can assure you that the downturn has hit the Dancopter pilots harder than most, or probably more than any other operator. Until recently there were 70 pilots employed in Dancopter, and later this year the aim will be less than 25 pilots left, to fly for the Maersk Oil and Gas contract with the 225. That is 1/3 left, and it is not because the guys or the company mishandled the job or the Shell contract.

Some have been lucky to find jobs elsewhere, ad hoc, temporary employment contracts etc. with terms and conditions not by near what they use to have. Some are without a job, and looking into a job market more dry than what is has been for decades. Bristow are letting go of 66 pilots, CHC Helicopterservice 19, so it will take years and 80-100$/barrel until we are back to what we had until last year for the pilots employed - I believe that the T&Cs we use to have, or a few still have, will go shortly and be gone forever.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

NORTH SEA PILOTS SHOW STRONG SUPPORT FOR STRIKE ACTION
20/08/2015


North Sea Helicopter Pilots have indicated strong support for strike action if helicopter companies do not make serious improvements in the way they deal with job losses. They have also highlighted the serious impact on safety the threat of redundancy is having.

In the survey conducted by the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA), pilots accepted the downturn in the industry meant jobs would go, but were frustrated at the way management are going about it.
Pilots want the helicopter companies to improve voluntary redundancy arrangements to try and prevent as many compulsory job losses as possible. And they believe the companies are not valuing the experience of senior pilots highly enough in deciding who may need to be made redundant.

BALPA General Secretary, Jim McAuslan, said: “We are not being unreasonable. We know the downturn in the North Sea is going to hit jobs, but the way the companies are going about it is causing massive frustration, borne out by the very high turnout and strong ‘yes’ vote in this ballot conducted over just four days.

“In the event management do not substantially shift their position BALPA’s National Executive Council will be meeting early next month to consider a move to a formal strike vote, something we are still hoping to avoid.”
A strong and worrying message from the survey was concern over safety. Pilots reported that the threat hanging over them, their families and their colleagues, was having serious unintended effects on their ability to sleep and concentrate.

One pilot commented: “In the past two weeks…there has been a noticeable change of focus in the cockpit. Crews are concerned and distracted and this is reflected in an increase of mistakes and lack of awareness. The threat of being ‘at risk’ is dominating the mindset of the majority of our pilots.”

Another said: “Do we really want pilots to be worried how their training costs and mortgage will be paid on a dark and stormy night?”

And a third said: “Radio calls are being missed. Pilots’ heads are not in the cockpit.”

Jim McAuslan continued: “Safety must come first. We are not saying that helicopter companies are indifferent to these issues, but we would be remiss if we didn’t highlight the stress and pressure that pilots are feeling. We will be passing these concerns on to the Civil Aviation Authority who regulate aviation in the North Sea.”

For more information contact:
Nancy Jackson
Media and External Relations Officer
Phone: 0208 476 4046
Email: [email protected]

[hueyracer]

Are you guys serious?

The Offshore-pilots are making more money than anyone else in this industry-for basically watching the autopilot do their job (yeah, i can hear the uproar-and i am old enough not to care).

This industry has had its ups and downs since day 1-you can either live with this, or get a job in an office (for probably the same money the guy driving your cab to your heliport gets)..


This industry got hit hard by the low oil price...but i assume its a great idea hitting it even harder by initiating a strike......so the companies that already have lost lots of money can lose some more...

:ugh:


“Radio calls are being missed. Pilots’ heads are not in the cockpit.”


If that´s really the concern, you got 1) the wrong job, 2) the wrong attitude, and shouldn´t be in the cockpit at all...

[EESDL]

Oops - some chips there - missed the point - no one said it is a hard job just why are helicopter operators 'allowed' to dismiss crews with no redundancy - despite T&Cs being agreed before hand?
Employment law never appears to work when it should.
Economics - that's why jumbo pilots get paid more than regionals carrying 80-pax and why NS pilots get paid more than robbo pilots.
However, regardless of what you fly, you plan for the future on the contract you have in front of you - but if that contract is essentially torn-up due to the prevalent attitude of the operators - 'because they know you also have liabilities - then you are left with having no income regardless of how low/high the oil price goes.
Personally, I hope price drops further and we all get back to reality - where a taxi doesn't get away with charging 20-quid for a 5-mile ride !!
PS I would a significant proportion of those suffering have done the FI route and thought they were on the road to paying-off their training debts so I suggest you wind your neck in before you make of an idiot of yourself ;-)

[Bravo73]

(And yes, before you all jump up and down I flew the North Sea for many years, it's not a hard job, just follow the ops manual and follow the checklist)

**Cough** Bullsh1t.

[Pittsextra]

This :-

why are helicopter operators 'allowed' to dismiss crews with no redundancy - despite T&Cs being agreed before hand?
Employment law never appears to work when it should.

is not the same as this:-

Pilots have indicated strong support for strike action if helicopter companies do not make serious improvements in the way they deal with job losses. They have also highlighted the serious impact on safety the threat of redundancy is having.


and this:-

Pilots reported that the threat hanging over them, their families and their colleagues, was having serious unintended effects on their ability to sleep and concentrate.

One pilot commented: “In the past two weeks…there has been a noticeable change of focus in the cockpit. Crews are concerned and distracted and this is reflected in an increase of mistakes and lack of awareness. The threat of being ‘at risk’ is dominating the mindset of the majority of our pilots.”

Another said: “Do we really want pilots to be worried how their training costs and mortgage will be paid on a dark and stormy night?”

And a third said: “Radio calls are being missed. Pilots’ heads are not in the cockpit.”


So are people being dismissed or are they being made redundant? and what was the expectation?? Is a job in the NS one for life or are the redundancy payments so great? Actually given the position CHC are in I'm not sure paying any pilots they hope to loose huge payments is realistic?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Johni, you can either understand what it is like to face an uncertain financial future, possibly with a mortgage to pay and kids to feed.........or you can't.

I got made redundant in 1991 when jobs were very scarce. My Company treated me fairly giving me clear notice and enough money to "survive" for 6 months and I had only been in the job for 18 months.

I was very very lucky and got a job within a month of the redundancy. Paid much less and I would say it took 10 years to recover back to where I was. For me and my family it was horrible despite the fair treatment and the Company's strict observation of our industrial agreements.

Normally on the NS it is last in first out. This means tha identification of those affected is quick and easy and usually they are junior so the managers can ensure they fly with someone secure until their runout date. This is probably the safest way to do it. Of course the Company will want high earners at the top to go to maximise the recuperation of revenue and they normally offer a voluntary package to attract some of those people.

However, when a Company boldly announces that they will pick and choose their victims, and therefore everyone is at risk, not only is the collective stress horrendous but there is no obvious way to manage crewing that assures at least one person in the cockpit is not worried.

For the usual heros posting that the pilot should suck it up...has it ever happened to you? If it has and it did not worry you or you enjoyed the experience then post away. For the rest, recognise at least from all those CRM seminars you have done that stress, caused by life change, can and will reduce the performance and the safety of those affected by this situation.

For me, I offer my support and solidarity to those affected and wish you all the best. I hope things turn around soon and the knife does not cut so deep.

I am dismayed by the morons posting here and almost gloating at what is happening. It rather proves the point that amongst our brethren is a whole group of p**cks who cannot contain there bitter vitriolic prose knowing full well how it would affect those concerned. Hueyracer, you are in that group!

DB

[cyclic]

@Double Bogey - like.

[Pittsextra]

am dismayed by the morons posting here and almost gloating at what is happening. It rather proves the point that amongst our brethren is a whole group of p**cks who cannot contain there bitter vitriolic prose knowing full well how it would affect those concerned. Hueyracer, you are in that group!


Are people being bitter? Are they gloating? Or are they merely asking a question and getting sanctimonious garbage in reply??

I know it comes as a huge surprise to you but in 2015 people loose their jobs. Its not nice and sometimes its not fair. However when you look at the stock price of these entities you'd be a total idiot if you had woken up to the issues in the last weeks. In fact perhaps the people who owned CHC stock at $10 are hurting as much?? I digress.

Are these guys asking for some kind of immunity from ever loosing a job??

[helicrazi]

Investing in the stock market is practically gambling, and in most cases that's exactly what it is, so why should gamblers be immune from redundancy? what is the relevance of gambling in stocks in relation to redundancy? None what so ever. Pointless agreement.

Should not gamble more than you can afford to lose anyway!

[Pittsextra]

Yeah why worry about the people who actually own the business... All those investor conferences at CHC, Bristow and EADS all start with "welcome gambling mugs..."

Probably the relevance here is that you work for a company where the fundamentals have weakened and your own companies stock has tanked... Some might call that a big fukking red flag?? Although don't tell the pilots...

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

So Johni, the question stands! Have you ever suffered a redundancy and witnessed first hand what it feels like. What it means to you and your family (assuming you have one)?

[hueyracer]

For the rest, recognise at least from all those CRM seminars you have done that stress,


Life is full of eventualities and unexpected changes....
Girl friends getting pregnant, family members die, people getting divorced, others get cancer...

Life is bitter-be prepared for it.
CRM seems to be the excuse to almost everything nowadays, and "Safety concerns" seem to be the holy grail to anyone trying to achieve anything...

Hueyracer, you are in that group!
I couldn´t care less-been there, gone through that, and learned my lesson.
Did not go on holiday twice a year, did not buy a new car every 3 years, but put money aside and-when made "redundant"-was prepared and did not have to call in for "flight safety" and CRM....and i never made the big bucks flying NS...

But i have had pilots coming from the NS trying to get a job down here-either for Utility or Onshore-remote area work..and you know what?
None of them could fly, despite having thousands of hours "in the difficult north sea"...but that´s not the point.

The point is:
You cannot take all your life, and then call in for sympathy when your luck ends......

I don´t mean to sound harsh-but we don´t call the offshore-guys "Pretty pilots" for no reason!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Pitts you need to look at the definition of sociopath! A person incapable of empathy!

Hueyracer, maybe you would not do too well on a night ARA in a cluttered field in poor weather and high wind. Courses for horses!

If you call working "taking" then your view of life is not the same as mine. Whatever you may think, Getting up at 04:30 in the morning to pound the radials in the dark, miserable weather feels a lot like work?

[Pittsextra]

DB forget you and me... Tell me what exactly are these pilots asking for?

[hueyracer]

Getting up at 0430 is something "special" for you?

Then how about the doctors working 24 hours shifts, the bakers getting up at 0200 to make your bread, the engineers preparing your aircraft starting at 0300?

Flying IFR is one of the simplest things in aviation (assuming you are IFR-rated, of course)....

But it´s not about the "difficulties" here...its about the pilots taking away the big bucks, then suddenly complaining when that comes to an end......

What do they actually want to achieve?

The companies have already lost money-that´s why they got rid of "expenses" (aka pilots)...
Not flying means they will not make money-or even have to pay compensation.....aka losing more money...anyone not understanding this should not be in a cockpit....so be careful what you guys wish for......there are always pilots waiting to get that job for less money...

[EESDL]

You are dismissed if you are made 'redundant' but not given your redundancy.
The ease at which companies can chop and change when convenient to them is a prime Flight Safety concern.
Why would you continue to work for a company that has told you how they intend to dismiss you as cheaply as possible?


Getting up at 0430 is something "special" for you?

Then how about the doctors working 24 hours shifts, the bakers getting up at 0200 to make your bread, the engineers preparing your aircraft starting at 0300?

Flying IFR is one of the simplest things in aviation (assuming you are IFR-rated, of course)....

But it´s not about the "difficulties" here...its about the pilots taking away the big bucks, then suddenly complaining when that comes to an end......

What do they actually want to achieve?

The companies have already lost money-that´s why they got rid of "expenses" (aka pilots)...
Not flying means they will not make money-or even have to pay compensation.....aka losing more money...anyone not understanding this should not be in a cockpit....so be careful what you guys wish for......there are always pilots waiting to get that job for less money...

[hueyracer]

Why would you continue to work for a company that has told you how they intend to dismiss you as cheaply as possible?

Are those companies actually "in breach" of contracts?
Do the contracts the pilots have actually SAY that they are paid compensation or "redundancy"?

Or did the just ASSUME that this should be the case, as they are now working for the "big shots"?

[Pittsextra]

You are dismissed if you are made 'redundant' but not given your redundancy.
The ease at which companies can chop and change when convenient to them is a prime Flight Safety concern.
Why would you continue to work for a company that has told you how they intend to dismiss you as cheaply as possible?

Well two things - if you have a contract that reflects you'd get paid X++ on being made redundant then you have a legal remedy if it's not paid. However has that happened here??

On the "why would you work for.." question then why threaten to quit?? Just quit. A bigger question is why continue to work for a company that does that to others.... Then they came for me...

[Democritus]

.............Of course the Company will want high earners at the top to go to maximise the recuperation of revenue and they normally offer a voluntary package to attract some of those people.

In 1999 my NS employer said they were going to make 40 pilots over the age of 55 redundant and called for volunteers. There was a sweetener package for those who volunteered. The snag was that if you didn't volunteer and were 'selected' then you only got statutory redundancy.

I was one of those who 'volunteered' as I recognised that I would probably be selected anyway - the second time in my flying career that I had been made redundant - and, having been cautious and not bought the fancy house and car, was relieved to be able quit the industry after 38 years, 24 of them on the NS, and I've never looked back. 16 years on and I hope that management changes might mean that the 60 pilots at risk there today might fare better than being given similar callous options to those we received - sadly I somehow doubt it. I really feel for the guys at risk and it's a hard lesson that loyalty in employment is rarely a two way thing.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Democritus I remember your case(s) very well as it was really the first time that we all realised that even employment law would ultimately not recognise our industrial agreements.

PITTS - I will answer your question once but seeing as you are dysfunctional I doubt you will understand. The pilots are balloting because the Company has instigated a redundancy policy that ignores the existing industrial agreement. An agreement the pilots have followed faithfully in the hope the Company would do the same. Without such agreements, rosters, pay, conditions would be back to Victorian times. Such is the level of social intelligence amongst the average NS Manager.

As I already stated, telling everyi pilot they are all at risk is Fundementally unsafe. No one in the cockpit is immune from worry about their future. I hope the CAA can fins a legislative stick to beat the management over the head with.

[terminus mos]

There is only 1 sure thing and that is that things will ramp up again, although it may take a while. Those Pilots being made redundant will be needed again.

Its short sighted "quarterly cash return" style American Management that thinks its smart to make Pilots redundant when they will be needed again.

So, if there is real solidarity among NS Pilots and an intelligent Union, why not ask for volunteers among those who may retire and others who may want to go, then go to Management and suggest keeping everyone else employed at 66% salary.

Everyone stays current, everyone can at least eat and the employer is well placed when the upturn comes.

[satsuma]

everyone can at least eat

You're not serious, are you? Considering the salaries North Sea pilots earn, you're hardly likely to be heading straight to food banks like a great many of the population have to when they experience redundancy. If you've blown the lot on an oversized house, a flash car and sending the kids to private school then what sympathy do you deserve when you could have been sensibly saving some for a rainy day? You do realise that you work in an industry that suffers periodic downturns, don't you? You could have been subscribing to an income protection policy - they do exist.

Please don't diminish your argument or your standing by suggesting that poverty is around the corner. Genuine poverty exists in both Britain and abroad. You should see it.

[terminus mos]

Satsuma

Keep your skin on. "Got to eat" is a figure of speech or a saying, like "rice in the rice bowl". You need to get out more. I am not pleading poverty for myself, I am not directly affected or threatened by redundancy (yet)

Johni

Ha, pilots will never vote for that.My point exactly. All this hand wringing on here is totally hollow. Pilot A doesn't care about Pilot B, there is no solidarity, its dog eat dog.

[Pittsextra]

DB- thanks for the reply.

If these agreements had previously been demonstrated not to be upheld in law why persist with them?? After that experience was there no appetite for change?

Although to be fair few focus on their redundancy package when they sign their contract as a hopeful new starter on day 1.

As for not telling pilots they are at risk of loosing jobs, at Bristow you have a point but CHC's position is different. See what redundancy packages look like when the company you work for goes bust.

[keithl]

As a sympathetic observer of all this, and one who is trying to understand how a strike could possibly help, I am at a disadvantage in not knowing how the compulsory element is to be administered. From the foregoing, I gather it is not LIFO, but a percentage across the whole seniority spectrum, is that right? And is it just statutory redundancy that is being offered?

Will someone spell it out for those who are now on the outside? If unwilling to state details because of confidentiality, anyone who recognises my name can PM me.

[Variable Load]

Advice on current 'best practice' available here:

Selection criteria for redundancy and avoiding redundancies | Acas advice and guidance | Acas (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4255)

[tistisnot]

Sounds like you may have some bitter experience thereof, johni !

[hueyracer]

However, in reality, they will fudge the process to get rid of who they want to. ie the expensive people, and the 'troublemakers'.


Who would you get "rid off", if you´d be the employer here?

I would also cut down on expensed-and kick those out who made my life difficult before.....

[EESDL]

Pittsextra
It is exactly what happened on the Norwich Shell/Dancopter case and I would suggest will happen again a bit further North if not countered in the courts

[Tango123]

Must admit I agree with johni here. If you follow the list presented by Variable Load, then it is nothing but "cherry picking" for the management to keep the employees they like, and ousts those they don't. It is neither transparent nor objective.

[tistisnot]

Sorry johni ... I was simply being sarcastic about your cynicism !

I do have an understanding about what HR may do on the managers' behalf ....

I am not NS, I do not have the best, yet lowest paid, job like some here - but defend those who have raised their standard and consider striking to maintain their conditions on the most boring of, yet well-paid, helicopter jobs!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I am at a loss to understand where're notion has comefromthat a NS salary will buy a fancy house, car and send kids to private schools.

The average NS pilot clears between 2.5 and 5.5k per month. Living in Aberdeen a modest 4 bed house mortgage for a person without family money will burn between 1500-2000 per month. By the time all fixed costs are met probably 2.5-3.0 k has already gone.

School fees amount to approx 800-1200 per month.

Having put 2 kids through private school my NS salary certainly could not cope alone with that burden. I know. I have lived that dream! And the one thing I did not have was a flying debt to service.

I have also suffered a redundancy with three small kids in 1991 right after after the interest rates had peaked at over 15%. At its height my mortgage payment exceeded my net salary. My minimal savings were already depleted. It sucked. It sucked really badly. My experience gives me intimate first hand knowledge of what these people are going through and the stress and worry, embarrassment and feeling of hopelessness that is ever present until something positive happens.

For you, quite frankly, idiots out there, posting utter garbage and expressing punitive opinions of those individuals affected. Shame on you! You do not deserve to called "Rotorheads" you clearly have no clue what these processes are like and how it feels to lose a job,that for the most part, you have worked hard at and done all that was asked of you.

Hueyracer. Sure the world is a tough place and I hear you comments five by five. However I have no respect for someone who cannot sympathise with a man or woman faced with the prospect of unemployment. Whatever the circumstances may be. That's because I know exactly how that feels and even though I personally have many freinds on the NS and some who would consider not to be my friend, I feel for them all. No one deserves what is about to happen.

Huey, also you can scoff at offshore pilots. Like all onshore pilots who think flying offshore ops is a piece piss. But let me remind you that my colleagues spend 98% of their flight time flying over hostile open water. They cannot pop it in a field when a light comes on. Smoke a tab and wait for the ground crew. They spend most of their flight time knowing that if they cannot stay in the air, survival becomes a serious issue. That, above all, is the reason they earn a higher salary than you.

I note that there are very few NS pilots posting on this thread. Maybe fear keeps them quite but I suspect many are reading the sad drivelyouguys post.

Johni, your lack of solidarity for your former colleagues says more about you than them. By your own admission you have never faced redundancy and yet you offer sanctimonious, unsympathetic offerings. Shame on you sir!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Pitts. As you seem so informed of the CHC financial situation I hope we can agree on one point. The situation in CHC financially, bears absolutley no relation to the work rate, dedication and proffessionalism of those employees at the coal face. It is the work of Executive Management and shareholder expectation. Can we at least agree on this and therefore release just a modicum of empathy for the coalface CHC employee that I suspect resides in your heart!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Ah Johni, you finally moderate your tone. Glad to see you have a heart after all!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Variable Load. The list reference you provide in no way is intended as a substitute for long established bi-lateral industrial agreements.

Agreements right now that are being wholly disregarded by one party. That is precisely why the pilots have balloted for strike action. What other possible response could management expect after sticking two fingers up to the industrial agreement.

At the end of the day, failure to honour these agreements leaves a state of anarchy.

Whilst I realise management sieze the opportunity to cull those pilots they consider undesirable, the net effect is a serious degradation in ongoing safety of the flight operation. Good luck with that!

[satsuma]

I am at a loss to understand where're notion has comefromthat a NS salary will buy a fancy house, car and send kids to private schools.

Well you did at least two out of three. Sorry but we all know North Sea pilots get paid a fortune, you can't pretend it's not the case. If you're earning those kind of big bucks but can't make ends meet you've made some pretty bad choices along the way. My next door neighbour was over the moon the other day because he's got himself a job in a local factory earning minimum wage. He manages alright on pennies.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Satsuma = an orange "Lemon"

[satsuma]

Satsuma = an orange "Lemon"

Very impressive. Well done.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Satsuma.....mon pleasure!

[Pittsextra]

DB - yeah fair enough I can see your posts are heart felt.

I don't have any special insight into CHC other than to know broadly about these things is my job. For the sake of brevity when things go from $10 to 40cents its for a reason and from looking at accounts and the earnings calls they are in a spot.

Of course good luck to our fellow man and I too have been in not too dissimilar positions but I suppose with my business it comes with the territory and you get thick skinned to it ultimately - not that it makes it any easier.

At CHC however it really can't be a surprise - or rather I'd be amazed if it was - although actually I'm surprised there hasn't been serious conversation about some trying to do their own thing, trying to win biz from CHC because from other threads it doesn't seem that big Oil is too tied into any one company or at least not for long periods.

[hueyracer]

The average NS pilot clears between 2.5 and 5.5k per month. Living in Aberdeen a modest 4 bed house mortgage for a person without family money will burn between 1500-2000 per month. By the time all fixed costs are met probably 2.5-3.0 k has already gone


Are you being serious?
CHC (http://www.helicoptersalaries.com/Home/CHC/tabid/362/Default.aspx)

Bristow (http://www.helicoptersalaries.com/Home/Bristow/tabid/360/Default.aspx)

My school days are over, but that sums up to much more than your "average"...(and they are not giving the peaks on this website).
Even after tax, you will not get close to that low..

But let me remind you that my colleagues spend 98% of their flight time flying over hostile open water. They cannot pop it in a field when a light comes on. Smoke a tab and wait for the ground crew. They spend most of their flight time knowing that if they cannot stay in the air, survival becomes a serious issue.


So do the pilots flying in Nigeria, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, over populated areas like NY....what´s the point?

It´s a fact that Offshore-pilots are the closest to airline pilots; their "work load" is low compared to utility pilots, fire pilots or (Night) MEDEVAC pilots...all they do is following their procedures and being prepared for the (unlikely) event of any issues.


It´s a job-and i don´t judge head over heels, but i am tired of "that bunch" considering themselves "so special and valuable"-you are drivers, like the rest of us-and replaceable at the blink of an eye.....


The helicopter world has ALWAYS been a tough business, from the day you start (not knowing if its worth selling everything you have and take a loan from the bank you are not sure you´ll ever be able to pay it back)...

As others said before:
What do they want to achieve?
All i can see if some people bitching about being laid of...and that happened to thousands of other people as well..
Do we see an uproar from the ground guys that are out of the job?
Do we here them complaining?

[Heathrow Harry]

Oil price is down and may not have reached bottom - on many NS fields are
running at a loss in current economic conditions

Choice is to close down or change the economics - the later can be done by changing back to 2 on - 2 off or 3 on 2 off or... (I can remember when it was 4 on 2 off)

That automatically cuts the number of (very expensive) helicopter trips and personnel required

Banging on about "industry agreements" is all well and good but if they close the fields down it will be a permanent loss in many cases and the NS will go the route of the UK coal industry - fewer units carrying increased costs leads to more closures which leads to ......

[Rotate too late]

It might be worth restating that there is a significant amount of TAX in the UK, you remember what tax is right? So whilst the headline might look it's worth bitching about ( a lot of bitching) then you might want to just stow your tits a bit. Currently unemployed and on benefits just in case you are wondering. And yes I do have the number for truck master......

[cyclic]

The helicopter budget for most majors is 1-2% of the overall production costs. Without them of course, there is no production. Get it wrong and the costs are a lot more than 1%. We all need to share the pain, in proportion.

Have done utility, under slinging, EMS, SAR. Just remind me how many people you are responsible for? Land with 20 others at night on the bow of a moving FPSO producing hydrocarbons probably deserves a little responsibility pay. Easy job most of the time, get it wrong on the other days and the consequences are dire. This goes on day in, day out 363 days a year carrying thousands of people who have a right to the best of care regardless.

The race to the bottom has begun. It is up to those who are participants whether they want to be at the finish line.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Question for those that know how the employment laws work in the UK.

If the BALPA decide to get pilots out on strike to support their cause - can the companies just turn around and fire/let go/make redundant those pilots on strike or do you have the right to strike - as just wondering how companies would treat those that are costing them even more money in tough times.

Thanks.

[helimutt]

the salaries posted above are USD/CAD $. CHC Canadian for a level 14 pilot now is approxiamtely 136000/yr. Now, stick that in your exchnage rate calulator and you'll get approx £65k. Oh, now deduct the tax (yes youre now a higher rate tax payer)

The NS salaries are somewhat higher, I know a few guys who earn near and over $100k. We're talking Line Pilots with extra tasks.

Even then he still needs to deduct tax at the higher rate.

The point is, regardless of how much you 'think' the NS guys are earning, the company management just ride roughshod over all agreements. As an ex BALPA rep on the NS I saw it first hand. I had to attend meetings where it was blatantly obvious management didnt give a flying fig about the pilots.

I even saw first hand the failure of different sections of the same company, avoid any solidarity with their workmates in other parts of the UK. The guys in Blackpool were on too good a number and wouldnt join in. The guys at North Denes didnt want to join forces. The guys in ABZ, well they werent interested in the 'mickey mouse' bases down south. This isnt bull****, this is just how it was. Protect your own little empire. Now that the whole NS is in dire straits, things are slightly different. No-one likes to see redundancies anywhere at anytime.

My only hope is that there is an upturn at some point soon, and jobs become available. My personal feeling is that this may not happen on the scale we'd all like to see. I can't see the NS ever being what it once was. :(

[terminus mos]

According to the UK Tax Office, monthly take home pay on £100,000 per year is £5,443 per month. On £80,000 take home pay would be £4,477 So, if everyone took a small pay cut, one in 5 overall pilot positions could be saved. If North Sea Pilots really care about their co workers, they should ask BALPA to put the idea to the membership as a ballot.

Offshore workers and Oil Company staff have already taken pay cuts, a strike will not have much support from workers in the industry and in the end will achieve nothing.

[cyclic]

What would we do with the positions saved if there is no flying? They would still be a financial burden to the company, employers NIC, insurance, loss of licence, recurrent training etc. Plus, not all NS pilots are BALPA members and not all companies are BALPA recognised. Not all companies have a grievance or an argument with BALPA if you catch my drift. The argument isn't numbers but the method in deciding how numbers are reduced. Even if this made any form of business sense, how do you apply the reduction? To everyone or only to those earning over a certain figure? When the next round of cuts come do you do the same again until you have a whole company of poorly paid pilots sitting around looking at each other - doesn't make a jot of sense. If there is no job, there is no job. How we have become so rapidly over manned is another story of course when certain employers were still recruiting like no tomorrow even when the price started to tumble.

I know that some majors have made reductions in terms and conditions, removal of lunch allowance, the free fruit removed, coffee quality downgraded. They have also given generous redundancy packages aligned with retraining courses...

You are right that a strike will achieve the square root of cock all.

[Fareastdriver]

Around 1980 when the price of oil had collapsed from $30/bbl and everybody was worried about their jobs Alan Bristow stood up at the company Xmas Thrash and declared,
"There will be no redundancies whilst I am chairman of this company."

Three months later it started and a year later even the Old Man himself went.

A few years later Mike Norris addressing the pilots at the Airport Skean Dhu,
"The first priority for this company are the shareholders."

Nothing has changed.

[Pittsextra]

I think there are some very odd comments re pilots and corporate structure.

Of course the board is going to focus on things relevant to them... I.e the owners of the business and for them they care about making money... It can not be news that this is the object of the operation?

I mean pilots can not think flying from A to B is a bloody excercise in their personal development or for a noble cause?!

I guess the company view them as people that have signed a contract to do a job in exchange for money going into a bank account every month?

If there is an issue or something to be done better then there is surely a conversation to be had - however in 4 pages of chit chat not one person has actually said which contracted T&C has had a coach and horse driven through it.

I get the upset at loosing a job but in fairness the market does seem tough and as we have done to death guys like CHC seem genuinely to be hurting. So what should they do exactly?? I'll not hold my breath for a straight answer xxx

[HughMartin]

Any decent redundancy situation should be managed as far as possible to ensure all parties are treated with respect and dignity; those leaving, those left in work and the employing organisation.

A good voluntary redundancy package should ensure this is achieved. If this is done, those leaving will be happy, those left behind won't feel guilty and the employer will have maintained its reputation. A small price to pay.

First and foremost, any existing Collective Labour Agreement should be adhered to. Neither employer nor employee should be allowed to pick and choose which parts of the CLA should be enforced or ignored.

I was lucky in that I spent most of my working life working for a UK O & G helicopter support company which never laid off a pilot in its life. That's not to say we didn't go through hard times. There were at least two significant downturns when our competitors laid off pilots but our managements' view was that downturns create opportunities and it wanted to be in a position to react quickly to the inevitable upturn. On both occasions, this tactic worked. This could only happen however if there was cash in the bank and long term investors who understood this.

History has seen a significant change in company ownership and management. Alan Bristow's falling out with his main shareholder, British & Commonwealth Holdings (or more precisely, Nicholas Cayzer), heralded a period of what I would call the "wilderness years" for BHL when bean counters took control. The take-over of Bond Helicopters parent company (Helicopter Service Group) by CHC would also bring dark clouds to this company. CHC over-extended itself significantly when it raised money to buy HSG. It is still paying a huge price some 15 years later trying to service this debt. While each of CHC's acquired operating companies have made operating profits, these profits have been siphoned off to try and pay off the debt. In my opinion, CHC's subsequent investors have also been less than wise. They have allowed CHC to increase its debt, seemingly without any form of hedging against the inevitable downturn.

This has meant that neither of the two big operators have money in the bank that they are prepared to spend on effectively managing the second most important asset a company has, its employees; the first being its customers.

Having retired earlier this year, I wish all my ex colleagues all the best through these difficult times. I hope it won't be too long before the next upturn. It will come, I know that for sure.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi Hugh, great post!

How's retirement working out for you?

Best Regards

DB

[HughMartin]

Retirement is great DB. Have never been so busy in my life.

I did pop in to see you not long after I went timex to thank you again for that lovely bottle of malt but you were in China.

Hope all is well with you and yours
Cheers
Hugh.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

'twas my pleasure and sorry I was on walkabout.

If ever you feel the need to pull collective give me a shout. It's not real of course but the next best thing!

DB

[HughMartin]

Sorry for thread creep folks but to answer DB, the difference between simulators and real flying is like the difference between masturbation and real sex - as far as I can remember. :O

[Pittsextra]

TS - there are a million and one things to do in a big organisation. In CHC no doubt beyond the pilots there are jobs directly involved in helicopter operations but then there is probably someone who works in a post room, sending letters and opening post. Some people answering the phone(s). People to ensure bills and salaries get paid, some people to order office ****e, some to hire and fire, some look after IT, etc etc etc etc.. It will be the same type of anonymous jobs that fill most big companies payroll.

Maybe they are cutting head count pilot wise because they haven't won a contract? Maybe because the ones they did win aren't profitable? Maybe they look at the outlook and don't think it is a quick turn around?? I don't know. But what you can say with certainty is that CHC are not in a happy place, the general environment isn't great and that has been at least obvious from the very publicised price of crude oil and CHC's own stock price for many many months.

So perhaps if you worked there and had other options you could have taken them before now? Maybe you could have asked questions internally before now?

I'm sure CHC issues may not be the pilots fault, but neither will they be the fault of the post room, the receptionist, the tea boy, the fitters, the IT department. And if you blame the executive then OK blame them, BUT if it was ever thus what and why do people work there?? Beyond which if all the genius resides with people and those who can fly then now is the chance to do their own thing!

For some to get stuck on a point of an historic agreement, without which the whole shooting match would have gone to **** years ago at this point is I'll timed and pointless.

I would agree that there is a base cost to these operations that is necessary to make them effective, safe and to ensure professionalism but as someone already said there is in life this race to the bottom. The focus is always on cost and just like the now dead peer who staffed his own personal transport with lesser experienced and no doubt cheap crew it seems that pilots are poor at convincing bill payers they should pay them more.

[tu154]

Cock. Of some considerable note. (To make it more than 10 chars).

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Pitts, yet again a dialogue of sanctimonious claptrap. I think I have finally figured who you are........a Senior Manager! Definitely not a true Rotorhead.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hugh, reminds me of one of "Mick's" old jokes.......

"Women are all right but you can't beat the real thing"

DB

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Well since people are resorting to name calling (that's you TU154) it's time for some tough love...

I can tell you one of the real problems is pilot duty time, requiring more and more pilots, but the offshore guys won't like hearing that.
The duty time rules are written by pilots for pilots but it just jacks up the number of highly paid pilots in the company so at the first sign of a slump the pilots become great ways to save money.
All I hear is "we want more money and less duty time. "
Add to that the militant unions and you have a spoilt brat mentality, which is what the North Sea is famous for..

Do you really think there will be helicopters grounded for lack of pilots to fly them?
No, meaning there were too many pilots to start with.
Duh..

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Ah Tuk-Tuk, by the content of your post You clearly think we should all work more, for less. That makes you either independently wealthy with no life......or an idiot!

[Pittsextra]

Ok so the managers are all nobbers and I'm all the usual names... Yet it seems pilots have no representation, or effective route of communication, with the executive and the level of sophistication to the solution is to down tools?

[hueyracer]

The problem isn't too many fitters/post room boys, it's too many 'managers'

Obviously, at the moment the problem seems to be "too many pilots", isn´t it?


Ok so the managers are all nobbers and I'm all the usual names..

The next problem is what i´d like to call the "Soccer phenomenon":
Everyone in the stadium knows exactly what the guys down there are doing wrong, and how they should do it better....so there are 10.000 "experts", but only 22 "idiots" in every game.....
:ugh:

Why is a pilot a pilot, and not a manager?
Exactly-because he can do what other can't....
Don´t you think the same applies vv?

[hueyracer]

They have meetings, they send memos, and err, but are they all really necessary?


Pilots are just taxi drivers for ONE means of transportation...are they really necessary?
As was mentioned before: Pilots are just ONE small piece of the puzzle.....so the universe does not turn around them (although most pilots think otherwise)..

Employers need to be a bit more creative and flexible with their workforce.

I agree-to a certain point.
What i can tell you is that as soon as an employer shows a tiny bit of flexibility, planning is out of the window, and you will need one guy behind each pilot to plan all those "eventualities" pilots can come up with...

When you plead for flexibility:
Where is the flexibility from the pilots adopting to that situation?

[Noiseboy]

Guys forget striking, it will do nothing but open the door to other operators who also have idle aircraft and access to excess crew, which is the basis of the current problems after all. It can only do damage.

The only answer is for the entire pilot workforce to quit and set up as a separate entity to the companies, who to quote CHC management, see themselves as nothing more than asset management companies, not helicopter operators.

Set up as a professional partnership akin to solicitors, accountants etc where all are invested in the business and supplying the pilot needs of the asset managers. Pilots could work as much or as little as they wish with a basic fee structure and profit share, pilot development would be experience and ability based rather than down to company ratios. The aim would be to provide all an equal proportion of days work to availability given.

There would be a buy in to provide startup capital and so all are invested in the business, there would need to be a leadership structure of some sort, however individual empire builders should be avoided. The ultimate aim should be a north sea wide ops manual with an independant training department, all backed and preferred by the CAA since this would be an entity actually focussed on flight operations.

This is not suggested as an easy option, indeed many would have to be prepared to work harder and more flexibly than now, however it would take control away from the companies who don't give a toss. Of course getting all of Bristow and CHC pilots to act together like this and be grown up enough to set something up together is optimistic, but if we were really serious then this is the action we should take. (Bond guys could join in too of course but since they don't seem to be at risk as yet they might take more convincing)

[212man]

....or take 6 months off to go travelling (for example).


A slightly ironic comment, given the previous strike centred on a pilot who wanted to go sailing for a month!

I can't find an online copy of Lord McDonald's inquiry report into the strike, but I read it 25 years ago in the Aberdeen library and I would suggest it is mandatory reading for management and potential strikers alike.

I see the Glasgow Herald has a good record of its reporting of the event:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19770720&id=SZBAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7aQMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3047,3935588&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19770419&id=_OY9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=jEgMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3960,3859322&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19770601&id=uZBAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8qQMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6375,37978&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19770718&id=R5BAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7aQMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3644,3541663&hl=en

Editorial on Page 6 sums up the report's central messages
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19770929&id=pfY-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=TE0MAAAAIBAJ&pg=3318,6377826&hl=en

[tistisnot]

That is unfair representation I suggest, judging from what the links which you have kindly posted say - he was to be wrongfully dismissed for not accepting a position overseas.

His desire to go sailing may have been one of the reasons he had happily accepted a contract which required him to be in Aberdeen.

Good read though!

[212man]

Mildly tongue in cheek.....;)

[tistisnot]

212, ;)

I think the larger operators do have some sort of unpaid leave arrangement.

Noiseboy, in the present climate you do not have a hope in hell - too much uncertainty to drop all and buy in on it.

US and UK operators seem to be adamant union haters; do not fully understand why the leaders fear such bodies. Typically you're with us, or agin us. Spurns any chance of collective flexibility that hueyracer might wish to achieve.

Elsewhere it has worked and it is used as a tool to consult both ways; and help out with social planning especially in times such as this - but you do need 90+% support of the union.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

Gone a bit quiet on this.
Was there ever a ballot?