Syrian MiG-31 Foxhound Delivery....allegedly

[SkyHawk-N]

Apparently, according to some Turkish media, six Mikoyan MiG-31 Foxhound aircraft have just been delivered to Syria. They form a part of a deal with the Russians which was signed back in 2007 for a total of eight.

BGN News (http://world.bgnnews.com/russia-sends-six-fighter-jets-to-syrian-administration-haberi/8586)

If the story is true it would appear that the delivery could be in response to the Turkish Government's call for a Syrian no-fly zone, something which Russia is obviously not agreeing with.

It would be interesting to hear views on whether or not the presence of these aircraft in Damascus would alter the idea of a Syrian no-fly zone due to MiG-31 capabilities. Would six, or even eight of this type of aircraft be a game/decision changer, or would they just be a problem that would require 'consideration'.

[rh200]

If the story is true it would appear that the delivery could be in response to the Turkish Government's call for a Syrian no-fly zone, something which Russia is obviously not agreeing with.

It would be interesting to know what Putins plan is with Syria, he could easily guarantee its sovereignty and plonk resources in there. I suspect Assads just a convenience and will leave him out to dry if it requires to much cost.

[atakacs]

Well those are capable birds... in the right hands. The question is who is going to fly them, with what infrastructure and armement.

[27mm]

Well, if this were true, the Foxhounds would require not only pilots, but more significantly fighter qual'd WSOs. IIRC, the Syrian AF don't have any, as they don't operate any 2 seat fighters....

[Rwy in Sight]

atakacs,

My thoughts exactly. The question is whether the training required and the procurement of material has already taken place thus the aircraft are ready to use.

[ORAC]

Seriously? We've been here before in Desert Storm.

If a no-fly zone was established there would be platforms watching their base electronically and visually; they'd be monitored from start-up to taxi and the information passed to AWACS and an airborne CAP and they'd be locked on their take-off roll and be lucky to reach 500ft and the airfield perimeter.

Their only hope would be, as in Desert Storm, to scramble in radio silence making a run for Iranian airspace; but seeing as, instead of a few miles, they have to cross the whole of Iraq, I doubt they'd make it......

Caveat: Assumes the US would be involved, but if they're not - the chances of a no-fly zone being established as zero anyway.

[Davef68]

I'd imagine the Israelis would be interested as well.

[Royalistflyer]

As I understand it our aircraft are attacking Al Queda/ISIS both of which are Assad's enemies, so why would his aircraft be a problem for us? They would be attacking the people we are attacking.
Turkey doesn't much like Assad, it doesn't like ISIS, it however mostly doesn't like the Kurds. The Kurds don't like ISIS. So exactly what Turkey would hope to achieve by a no-fly zone escapes me.
However if the Russians supply pilots and ground crew, those Foxhounds become something very interesting.
ISIS however isn't a normal army it is very dispersed and difficult to defeat from the air. Ultimately ground troops have to be there. If they are going to be defeated, like it or not, we should work with Assad.

[KenV]

Keep in mind that Syria ordered these aircraft way back in 2007. A lot of things have changed since then. Syria may or may not be interested in flying these aircraft operationally, assuming even that they have the resources (including rear seat crew) to fly them operationally.

[atakacs]

I think we can all agree that if those birds are going to fly in any combat capacity it will be with Russian crews, either official or mercenaries...
Interesting time we live in.

[Hawk98]

Are the F22s still deployed in the area? If so I can't see these lasting long if they are to be used (foolishly) against the coalition aircraft, I can't see any other uses for them to be honest, as I think I'm right in saying they have no air to ground capability?

[West Coast]

Not sure why we're to assume they'll be flown by anyone other than Syrians. I give the Syrians basic credit for knowing that if they ordered these jets a number of years ago that they would have a program up and running to staff them. War or not, they've taken delivery, meaning they're quite possibly ready to fly them in some capacity.

[PhilipG]

Can anyone cast any light upon the Syrian thinking in ordering these? An air defence interceptor with the ability to go high and fast and shoot long range missiles would seem to be a solution looking for a problem in Syria's case.

Israel is just next door and as was shown with the shoot down of a Turkish F4 Syria had a good air defence infrastructure.

Unless they were needed to protect the possible nuclear facilities from long range US attack.

It is not as though the Iraqi air force is a threat, at least at the moment.

[JointShiteFighter]

It's irrational to assume Syria will use these jets against coalition forces. ISIL haven't got the personnel to operate them so that rules them out. They are enthusiastic about taking over the Middle East, but enthusiasm will only get you so far. Training, experience, equipment, personnel and capability will do the rest, and they haven't got any of those.

[Davef68]

Can anyone cast any light upon the Syrian thinking in ordering these? An air defence interceptor with the ability to go high and fast and shoot long range missiles would seem to be a solution looking for a problem in Syria's case.


High flying drones and surveillance aircraft

[Selatar]

An interesting buy if true. Certainly more Frogfoot and Hind/Hip procurement make more sense with regard to the current and real threat to Assads regime. That said their airspace is busted by just about everyone these days so perhaps they are unwisely bolstering capability. A thirsty 1980s aircraft they will struggle to operate with the RCS of a house is a weird choice. Sellers market I guess.

As has been said we currently fight the same enemy as both the Syrian and Iranian Air Force (who'd have thought it) and the RAF/coalition "holding action" is to a degree held togther based on Assad holding his ground.

[atakacs]

I wouldn't call myself a specialist but I do have some aquintance who happened to fly in those birds a decade ago. My understanding is that they need real expertise and significant supporting infrastructure to be operated in an efficient manner and that said expertise is very unlikely to be present among the Syrian Air Force, or whatever is left of it. Just my 2c

[West Coast]

expertise is very unlikely to be present among the Syrian Air Force, or whatever is left of it. Just my 2c

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

[TBM-Legend]

One IDAF strike mission to Syria and poof no MiG 31's..

[JointShiteFighter]

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Probably because the MiG-31 requires a Navigator/WSO in the back seat. As has already been said, the Syrian AF doesn't operate any twin-seat combat jets, so unless the Syrian AF has managed to retain a proper facility for training combat Navs and then getting them combat ready, and has experienced Nav's as QFI's to teach the courses, then this is a bit of a problem.

Unless Russian crews are going to operate these aircraft and Russian groundcrew will maintain and arm them while the Syrians get up to speed, then they are going to be sitting on the ground, doing the square root of :mad: all. So it's reasonable to arrive at the aforementioned conclusion that the required expertise is not likely to be present.

[West Coast]

While that's all true, what makes you think they haven't trained up some GIBs?

[atakacs]

Now it starts to make sense

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4696268,00.html

[AreOut]

yupp but even with russian pilots what will they use them for? Hard to imagine that israelis or turks will attack russian planes so they'll need aerial supremacy...

[TEEEJ]

atakacs wrote

Now it starts to make sense

Or Ynet news is taking over from Debka? Debka normally generates these bogus news stories in order to get hits.

This has come up before and quite recently.

From 4th August 2015.

Russia not planning to send troops to fight ISIS in Syria – Putin’s spokesman

The participation of the Russian military alongside the US in the fight against Islamic State militants in Syria, is not on the agenda, said Dmitry Peskov, the presidential press-secretary.

“No, this isn’t being discussed in any way. This issue isn’t on the agenda,” Peskov told reporters on Tuesday when asked about the possibility of Russian military involvement in Syria.

The press-secretary also told the media that Syrian President Bashar Assad, had never asked his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, to send troops to battle IS (formerly ISIS/ISIL).

https://www.rt.com/news/311583-russia-troops-syria-isis/

[atakacs]

I would certainly agree that this is anything but confirmed news.

And that even if it was I don't quite see Mig-31 engaging the ISIS airforce :confused:

[Self Loading Freight]

I don't see the training being an issue - the Syrian AF could train in Russia, and could have been training for a while.

All the other factors, I couldn't comment on. The massive rolling fustercluck in that area is well beyond my amateur comprehension.

[LT Selfridge]

It's an efficient move by Russia. They could have sent some ground attack types to fight 'ISIS' but by sending AD aircraft they cut to the chase and prevent the no fly zone.

[Haart]

"...as was shown with the shoot down of a Turkish F4 Syria had a good air defence infrastructure."


They might have had good AD infrastructure, well even that is doubtful, but given the rings that the IAF ran around the Syrians it was anything but effective. Fast and low fly past of Assad's summer house on the coast, striking PLO camps outside Damascus, taking out the odd nuclear facility (2007 - all open source info)...their IADS wasn't up to much at the best of times let alone now.

[AreOut]

I'd argue that israeli AF is much better than turkish especially jamming/electronics, also their pilots have lot more experience and training

[TEEEJ]

LT Selfridge,

The MiG-31 story is bogus.

Russia has not sent Mikoyan MiG-31 supersonic interceptors to Syria and does not intend to operate the aircraft in the war-torn country, CEO of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG Sergei Korotkov stated refuting recent rumors.

No MiG-31s for Damascus: Russia Denies Sending Interceptors to Syria (http://sputniknews.com/military/20150822/1026049778/no-mig-31-for-syria.html)

[TaranisAttack]

They'd be better off with attack helos

[WhatsaLizad?]

"They'd be better off with attack helos "




Better than 500 T-90 Tanks, KA-50 helicopters, MI-24 Hinds, S-300 SAMS or 1000 Bear bombers (Ok, the 25 that can actually fly)


..................pick out the 10,000 most indebted, alcoholic, pissed off and in good physical shape, well armed Spetnaz soldiers, drop them in Raqqa with little support with orders to kill every male with a long beard for $50,000 (proof of scalp) and the return every certified Yazdhi female for $100,00 a head, then make their way to a certified Jordanian, Israeli checkpoint for a payday.


Get real, for a few bucks, much cheaper than any western military campaign, these ISIS arse clowns could be tacked on the wall of every western SOF squad bar within 30 days provided we drop the rules and take off the gloves.


Won't work though. The luvvies would rather see hundreds of bodies of refugee kids wash up on the beaches rather than to do what's right, no matter how distasteful if may seem.


Anyone object?

[ORAC]

Kremlin sends men and arms to prop up dying Assad regime | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4545816.ece)

The Times (behind firewall): Kremlin sends men and arms to prop up dying Assad regime

Russian forces are fighting alongside President Assad’s army, according to Syria’s government-run television station.

A three-minute film shot by a militia loyal to Assad showed troops backed by an armoured vehicle that is among the most advanced in the Russian Army. Russian voices were clearly audible. The footage claimed to show government forces fighting advancing rebels in the Latakia mountains, in the heartland of Assad’s Alawite minority. Analysts were surprised by the appearance of a BTR-82A armoured car, which was delivered to Russian troops only last year. The turret gun system, which can be seen firing in the footage, contains sophisticated stabilisation, night vision and satellite navigation systems.

The audio track to the footage includes an off-screen voice shouting commands in Russian, apparently to the crew of the vehicle. “You can hear Russian, that is correct,” Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military specialist at the Royal United Services Institute, said. Russian military advisers have long been thought to be in Syria as part of Moscow’s support for the regime. However, they have never been seen taking part in combat operations. Dr Sutyagin said he was not certain whether the Russian speakers were serving soldiers or civilian ex-military contractors, who would be a “deniable presence” for Moscow.

The news comes amid reports of growing Russian involvement in the war and with Moscow pushing for a regional coalition against Isis that would include Assad forces. Photographs uploaded to a shipping blog site on August 20 showed a Russian naval vessel heading south through the Bosphorus strait, its decks crammed with military vehicles. The destination of the alligator-class landing ship Nikolai Filchenkov is unknown, but is suspected to be the Russian-controlled Syrian port of Tartous. The pictures attracted the interest of analysts because it was the first time a vessel had been seen carrying military hardware through Istanbul so openly.

The Russian military’s relationship with Syrian forces goes back decades. Tartus is Russia’s only base on the Mediterranean and many Syrian officers receive training in Moscow. Rebel activists in Latakia identified the mountaintop town of Slunfeh, east of the port city, as a listening post run by Russian troops. “The Russians have been there a long time,” an activist with the Free Syrian Army 1st Division said. “There are more Russian officials who came to Slunfeh in recent weeks. We don’t know how many but can assure you there has been Russian reinforcement.”

Syria.net, a rebel website, alleged on August 12 that Russian forces had started to take a direct role in organising regime defensive lines in the mountains above Latakia. Two Russian-made drones were photographed after crashing in rebel held areas of nearby Idlib province in July. The Syrian government has boasted of the continued strength of Russian support. Assad said on Lebanese television last week: “We have strong confidence in the Russians as they have proven throughout this crisis, for four years, that they are sincere and transparent in their relationship with us.”

Last week the pro-regime propaganda outlet al-Watan, a questionable source, reported that Russia planned to build a second military base at Jableh, on the coast south of Latakia.

The Russian government has denied a report carried by the Israeli newspaper Ynet on Monday that Moscow was preparing to deliver an entire “expeditionary force” to Syria to fight openly alongside regime troops. Russia has not confirmed reports in the Turkish media that six Mig-31M aircraft landed in Damascus on Sunday. “In the coming weeks,” the Ynet report claimed, citing unnamed Western diplomats, “thousands of Russian military personnel are set to touch down in Syria, including advisers, instructors, logistics personnel, technical personnel, members of the aerial protection division and the pilots who will operate the aircraft.”

US officials confirm that Washington monitors Russian support for the Assad regime, but officials from the Pentagon, State Department and White House all declined to comment on changing levels of that support or rumours of a Russian “expeditionary force”. President Obama said last month that the Syrian regime’s key allies — Russia and Iran — “recognise that the trend lines are not good for Assad”.

[JointShiteFighter]

also their pilots have lot more experience and training.


...and they are exceptional with the gun.

[Lonewolf_50]

One IDAF strike mission to Syria and poof no MiG 31's.. I don't see the Israelis wasting their time on that any time soon. With the internal mess Assad has to deal with, the chances of him doing anything to mess with the Israelis, who he knows can whack him almost at will, seems remote.

[melmothtw]

LT Selfridge,

The MiG-31 story is bogus.

Quote:
Russia has not sent Mikoyan MiG-31 supersonic interceptors to Syria and does not intend to operate the aircraft in the war-torn country, CEO of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG Sergei Korotkov stated refuting recent rumors.
No MiG-31s for Damascus: Russia Denies Sending Interceptors to Syria

I'm not really sure that it is down to the CEO of MiG to decide where the Russian Air Force gets to deploy its aircraft (or not), and as for believing the word of a government that still swears blind it does not have forces deployed in Ukraine, well....

[Lonewolf_50]

@ORAC: FWIW, America has a variety of mil assistance missions in a great many countries. So the Russians have one ongoing in Syria. *shrugs* Given that their objectives overlap (at least in part) with the general Western objective of dealing with the ISIS group in that multi faction cat fight going on in Syria (and for that matter in Iraq) I don't see it as a problem.

It may in the long term be helpful (it may also make the mess somewhat messier): hard to say.

[TEEEJ]

Melmothtw,

Korotkov clarified his response. Remember the initial report was that the Russian Aircraft Corporation had delivered 6 MiG-31s to Syria. Korotov also refuted claims that Russian Air Force MiG-31s had deployed. He would look a bit of an idiot if images leaked or if Syrian state TV started showing footage.

Russia denies delivering MiG-31 fighter jets to Syrian regime
Sergei Korotkov, CEO of Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) MiG, denied rumors that his company had delivered 6 MiG-31 fighter jets to Syria. Meanwhile the company’s press officer has also denied similar rumors that they have signed a contract with Egypt for the sale of several other fighter jets.

Last week media reports claimed that Russian military aircraft manufacturer RSK MiG had delivered 6 MiG-31 supersonic fighter jets to the Syrian regime as partial fulfillment of a protocol signed in 2007 where the Syrian regime purchased a total of 8 such jets.

Speaking to the press in Moscow, RSK MiG CEO Sergei Korotkov denied that they had delivered 6 MiG-31 fighter jets as part of an agreement signed before the Syrian crisis erupted. “We did not deliver any jets to Syria nor do we have any plans to use them there ourselves,” he said.

Russia is pushing for a broad international coalition in the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) featuring Syria, Iraq , the Kurdistan Regional Government, as well as other nations in the region.

Korotkov added that the company’s portfolio contained nearly USD 4 billion in orders. “This year we’ll be deliver 32 jets to the Russian Defense Ministry as well as international customers such as India, where we’ll be delivering 8 planes,” he added.

Meanwhile RSK MiG press officer Anastasia Kravchenko denied that the company had signed a contract with Egypt for the sale of MiG-29 fighter jets. Dismissing such allegations that have appeared in the press, she said such claims were “exaggerated” and “entirely based on speculation.”

Russia denies delivering MiG-31 fighter jets to Syrian regime (http://world.bgnnews.com/russia-denies-delivering-mig-31-fighter-jets-to-syrian-regime-haberi/8758)

[melmothtw]

He would look a bit of an idiot if images leaked or if Syrian state TV started showing footage.

Just as Putin would look like an idiot if images leaked of Russian troops and equipment operating in Ukraine?

All the same, I'll take official Russian announcements/denials with a large pinch of salt these days...