How big do you think the exodus from EK will be....

[keepitrealok]

Latest rumour:

777 CMD courses for the rest of the year cancelled for FOs who had already passed their interviews.

The reason?

Short FOs and so DECs are about to be recruited onto the fleet.

I reckon 2 FOs for every 1 DEC they get.

Keep discovering.

[Bring Back The Biff]

Remain calm...

That was Thursday's plan.

When they realise that there are no DEC's interested, the plan will change again.

Probably start recruiting DEC's from Turboprop background...:O

[alwayzinit]

Allegedly, and this a rumour network after all, DSVP FO is at a loss as to why so many are leaving!

This, if true, stuns me as he is a bright and grounded bloke IMHO. Maybe we are really all imagining how far our QoL has gone down the plumbing.

I'm not really totally pooped all the time it's really a feeling of euphoria from being so well loved and treated by my bosses.

Time for another "happy pill" .........................................

For those of an age, I have an Air Europe feeling about the current situation.

For those of younger years, it is not a good feeling or outcome.................:eek:

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Habibis, they will not get many DEC's for the 777, look at the recruitment disaster of the A330 DECs. Not one made it thru selection, of the few that applied. There maybe a few more, as the 777 fleet is viewed as marginally more appealing, given less night flights to the Sub continent for now.

I have been here a fair while, and of course as a pilot I am entitled to bitch and moan and praise when right (the latter being rare these days). The recipe has all of a sudden changed, colleagues are not just talking about leaving, they are actually leaving in droves. I myself have never been to a roadshow for other airlines, here in DXB or elsewhere. i am going to both the Korean and Jet2. I am now looking actively for opportunities, not what I thought I would be doing.

EK Address these issues and you will have no issues crewing the aircraft.

1.Let the rostering system do its job, let us bid for what we want, leave the current or new system alone. Keep the rotating bid system as is. Stop putting in ludicrous restrictions, and making bidding difficult.

2. Reduce the workload, 95+hrs a month is unsustainable for most of us. Back of the curve night duties, are not good for our longevity.

3. Honour our contract and give us our leave, 4 or 5 day blocks do not count.

4.Pay increase- Doesn't have to be huge, but the annual increment does not count.

5. Let us have a guaranteed block of days off a month. 7 days would work!

Add your wishes below folks.

Many are leaving as the workload is unsustainable. We are constantly tired, and that affects our health and personal lives. Those that are leaving are mainly leaving because of quality of life issues. Thats why I am looking at other jobs.

SyB :zzz::zzz:

[SOPS]

Alwayzinit, it's funny that you bring up Air Europe. I have read a couple of books about that compsny and its history, and you are right, it does have an Air Europe feel to it.

[sonylaptop]

Was in ground school this year and guess what, every Pilot I spoke to was on a short term plan, tired of fatigue angry wife's. No quality of life...long haul operator that puts night turns in between trips...sustainable?

[Spooky 2]

Just curious but Boeing and EK have a working relationship. Boeing not unlike other pilot contract companies, supplies pilots for various assignments. What's to stop Boeing from supplying EK with short term contract pilots?

[Old King Coal]

Alwayzinit,... I too remember the demise of AE only too well (on 8th March 1991), wherein I lived it, first hand... and, fwiw, I'm still in regular contact with GJB, and hoping to drop by and see him in the next week or so. ;)

[in freedom]

Alwayzinit, the current disconnect of EK management from their employees and reality is very unfortunate but was easy to predict. Here is a sequence of events:

- Install authoritative regime without the burdens of check and balance

- Achieve quick victories that would have been impossible in a slow, balanced environment

- Become drunken on your own success and start to believe in your own superiority

- Crush any critical voices that spoil the party. Enjoy your absolute power. In airman language: turn off the warning systems because they create unpleasant noise

- Use any crisis to cement your power by eradicating scapegoats. A welcome way to get rid of the last independent thinkers. By now information is definitely only flowing top-down.

- Reality has become distorted because it doesn't reach you any more. The layers below tweak any hard truths - or they wouldn't be there any more. You are now cruising based on pure luck. You are eating into your gains from the past, in this case the excellent pilot corps you had attracted earlier.

- Because you have become unable to face and fix small unpleasant truths in the past you are ill prepared to accept and deal with any real big problem. But that is what's heading your way. Self-induced and/or from external factors.

In short, it is a recipe for disaster followed by the Romans, the Germans in their 1000 year empire (12 years in the history books) and by various Communist regimes. It is ranked as a leading cause for corporate bankruptcy.

Chances are that this is not going to end well. I am sure that they will squeeze the remaining crew even harder before the inevitable end game. By now a change of direction would be a major effort for a competent management team. But you know who leads you and that personal pride will prohibit any loss of face.

I left when I had the opportunity but I have not forgotten your suffering. Good luck for what is about to come.

[Nikita81]

Great post, in freedom. And great nick, as well.

I have to defend Yugoslavian communism, though. :}

http://i61.tinypic.com/2i6nreo.jpg

[jack schidt]

History will repeat itself yet again. ALL GREAT EMPIRES EVENTUALLY FALL!!

Jack

[Neptune Spear]

I don't think Emirates or Dubai was ever a great Empire. Far from it.
If tomorrow is going to be worse than today and the day after tomorrow worse than tomorrow why does anyone stay at Emirates? We are somewhat intelligent people and most of us can see what is happening here; we as Emirates employees have to pay for Dubai excess'. This creates an environment where everything is taken away and nothing given. The Emperors have gotton so drunk on power that they don't even give us the items that don't cost anything.
This is so sad. It is to the point even if they give us an industry leading contract very few pilots will come. It is the attitude and treatment that are so bad (in addition to the pay) at Emirates.
Rumor is every fleet is short of pilots in September and Ad-Opt can't complete its task. I wonder how late the rosters will be?
There are lots of great airline jobs out there nowadays. Get out before tomorrow.

[polax52]

Lets be honest though; threads like this start on a weekly basis and so far there has been no significant rumour of flight cancellations due to Pilots shortage. As previous threads seem to indicate the attrition rate at EK is around 3%, this is entirely normal and anything less than around 10% will not change anything. The guys who are truly not happy need to leave in order to make things better for everybody else.


I can't see much success with any kind of type rated DEC programme because anybody with a 777 on his/her license is already in a company where they will have a contract similar or better than EK and seniority.

[LHR Rain]

What a stupid comment Polax. For you to be happy the unhappy pilots have to leave? You are an idiot aren't you?
If everyone that was unhappy left EK the airline would be grounded. Beside Harry who else do you know that is really happy? The SAs don't count. Or a more important question is with all that has happened who is still happy at EK.
What will be the final straw that breaks the rest of the pilots backs? We all know it is going to get worse so what will it be? VAT, 120 flt hrs, no leave.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Polax…

Agree with LHR on your comments….

How on earth would anyone leaving EK help the problems. That is not the culture we live in here.

So you're saying if more guys leave, it'll be better for you? You're saying Fewer pilots would mean LESS flying hours per month, FEWER crazy rotations of day night/night day ops followed preceded by a 10 hour time zone ULR… and you say that would make things better for you if lots of pilots left??? You think you'd get your 42 days vacation if more pilots left??? You think the 94 hours plus each month would be LESS if lots of pilots left? I honestly don't follow your logic.

It's akin to you simply sticking your head in the proverbial sand hoping the the problems disappear….

I simply fail to see the logic in your statement. But in good EK CRM tradition, I'm willing to listen to an explanation.

Specifically though… I'd like to ask you to answer this: Why are fewer and few pilots getting only 30 days vacation at 4 and 5 day clips vs the "entitled" 42 each year? Also, don't know about your roster, but mine is WELL over 92 hours anymore these days. Why would that be if as you imply, there is no pilot shortage? And the 3% you mention….. You do realize that anyone who leaves over age 50 is NOT counted in that 3%, right? They are considered to have RETIRED and so therefore HR can come to wash-up and tell us everything is normal. Laughable….

Kap

[sheikhmahandy]

They make it difficult to like them!!

A purser said this to me one day and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

The situation today within the company is so diametrically opposed to when I

joined.

I can hardly believe how this has come about. It saddens and puzzles me at

the same time.

From flying with colleagues who praised their tenure within the company, to

currently flying with colleagues who despise and profess their hatred for it.

I literally do not know anyone who is not actively looking for other options or

who would go out of their way to help the company.

If this is the company style that management want, it is going to be a rude

awakening when their lack of respect for human desires and needs leads to

the inevitable crisis.

I can only hope that I have moved on before then. :ugh:

[Rotaiva]

or who would go out of their way to help the company.
50% of the pilot body did exactly that! For no other reason than to help the company, half of the pilots actually put a parallel bid in!!!

We are our own worst enemies!

[keepitrealok]

That was just naive curiosity. Chat to your colleagues - most mistakenly thought they would somehow see the results and could compare.

[emratty]

In the past there has been talk of an exodus but this time people are acting on their desire to leave. Unless there is a radical change of attitude from AS replacement the company will end up in a terminal decline.
I feel that flight safety is now being compromised the recipe for disaster is there.....overworked, tired de motivated pilots in my near 13 years here I have never known it like this.
I am not going to work under these conditions 95 hours plus every month does not interest me and for long term health it's a non starter.

[dashman20]

Some numbers I heard from a reliable source in the last few days.
36 skippers resigned in the last month and about 400 f/o's short on the 777.:eek:
Any substance to these numbers....can anyone verify it?

[Monarch Man]

I feel that flight safety is now being compromised the recipe for disaster is there.....overworked, tired de motivated pilots in my near 13 years here I have never known it like this.
I am not going to work under these conditions 95 hours plus every month does not interest me and for long term health it's a non starter.

That's it in a nutshell for me now, we can talk until we are blue in the face about a variety of things relating to pay and QOL but quite frankly I know have a real fear that we will be watching one of those 24hr news channels with bad "breaking news".
I sincerely hope against hope that this is not the case but honestly? Do you think that Commercial or Flt Ops are even aware of the pressure we are under?
I remember after the MEL incident all the arse covering that went on and the strenuous denials in the various branches of the media when the verboten word "fatigue" was mentioned. Shoot the messenger, ignore the evidence, surround yourself with yes men, just wait until something goes wrong and watch and listen to the howls of how nobody knew anything.
Exodus? well what ever it's called, it is accelerating.

[polax52]

LHR rain: I totally agree with you, I'm very stupid. If nobody leaves and everybody outside of EK chooses to join it would alleviate all of your problems and vindicate your friendly British management.

[helen-damnation]

Unless there is a radical change of attitude from AS replacement the company will end up in a terminal decline.

Latest rumour doing the rounds is it will be HAH.

[bingofuel]

I have been following this post with interest and wonder if anyone can tell me if the 90+ hours a month are duty or actual stick time hours. Also if flying ultra long haul how many actual flights a month does it take to accumulate the 90+ hours?

Many thanks.

[SOPS]

Those hours my friend are stick time. And on ULRs, your time in the bunk is "factored" so you don't get full credit for the entire flight time.

[kipper the dog]

Thing is bingo, we don't just do ULR flights. We can do a ULR followed by all - night turns to India, depending on your fleet. Short, long and ultra long haul - its the mix thats the killer and that enables them to mess our rosters around. If you just did ULR you would get to 96hrs after 3 trips.

And its stick time (including bunk) not duty hours when we talk of 90+hrs a month. Dread to think how many duty hours we do.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

The amount of pilots leaving in August is approx 35 give or take. I have seen an e mail to verify this.
Also, many F/Os and a few Captains have been getting calls on days off, so yes we are short all round. I will not be doing any flights on my days off.

Helen-D I hope not :ugh::ugh: But could believe it.

Bingofuel. Its block time, chocks off-chocks on. Duty time is ways more. ULRs are >14 hrs, so you could do 3 x ULRs a month. Of course EK say that when you are augmenting, only the time in the seat count :=:=

SyB :zzz::zzz:

[bingofuel]

Many thanks for the prompt, concise responses. I did not appreciate you did short, long and ULR
routes as a mix.

BF

[Desdihold]

If Panama operates every day then how many pilots will it require per month?

( the staffing problem will become even worse)

[kipper the dog]

Desdi, I think it will require no more that the SIN/BNE trip which goes a380 the same month Panama starts. What a coincidence.

[Wizofoz]

A new ULR route soaks up around 50 pilots.

[JAARule]

The JD guys must be disappointed to lose the Sing/Brisbane trip. Wonderful timings that one.

[helen-damnation]

Has the SIN-BNE been confirmed/announced? I thought it was the SIN-MEL which is much better :cool:

[kipper the dog]

Sorry Helen, I meant SIN/MEL.

[anson harris]

Has the SIN-BNE been confirmed/announced? I thought it was the SIN-MEL which is much better

I seem to remember appalling levels of tiredness and inattention on both?

[Schnowzer]

GD,

Our carears are stagnent, we are undercut by C scale guys. Frying pan and fire spring to mind ��

I spent a little time renewing my visa the other day and bumped into 4 mates that are leaving. I find it pretty unsettling. Looking tonight I have gone up 25 places on the seniority list in the last 4 months which doesn't sound much but I am in the top 300.

There are really 3 choices:
1. Flog the employees until it goes horribly wrong.
2. Buy a way out of the hole by increasing remuneration massively.
3. Get the company out of the employees lives. Stop being petty, anything that cost the company nothing but improves the QOL of the employees should be implemented immediately. Recognise inflation exists and increase pay commensurately.

Option 3 gets the employees on side, they tell their mates what a great place EK is to work at, the snowball rolls and the problem is fixed in the medium term. Benefits to the company happy employees that support the goals of the company, improved service and happy repeat customers.

So a fix is actually not that difficult and can be achieved without too much cost to the company. Will it happen....?

[aqroyal]

I noticed that EK has recently extended its training bond for ALL new hires (type rated or not) from 3 years to 5 years. Seems like a disincentive.

[fliion]

Green D

LR 3 is spot on.

One of the toughest seats to man here is the LHS & RHS of the A330.

Countless stories of guys showing up offered the Boeing and then being placed on the A330. If you don't believe it ask the recruiter in the interview. No way he/she could tell you otherwise. That would be a direct and explicit lie.

To give you an idea of the integrity of our HR - every year we do two ground school wash ups with mgt & HR - and it's the only chance we get to exchange our views as a group. We regularly bring up legitimate and serious concerns.

EVERY time we are told by the HR woman (always female) - "fair enough we will look into it and get back to you on it."

Never and I mean never - has anyone of the group of usually 12 guys EVER had the courtesy of a HR rep taking the time to copy those 12 guys and give feed back.

These people are meant to be at the pinnacle of principled professionalism by being at a managerial level in charge of the livlihood of us, the white colored professionals at the tip of the spear of this might mega PR op.

They DONT CARE. Ive ask every pilot I flown with over the years - "do they ever get back to you?"

Not going to happen

So come on over...but you have been warned a d BTW that villa you were shown is like the fleet you came for ...don't hold your breath.

f.

[Wizofoz]

Over the last several years, condition and QOL have steadily decreased at Emirates.

To anyone who has been here and witnessed this, it seems a good reason to be disheartened, unmotivated, and keen to look elsewhere.

Thing is, this misses an essential truth- QOL worldwide for ANYONE but a very small percentage of the worlds population has been at best stagnant, and for most negative across the board of socio-economic status or professional qualification.

This is borne out by a simple question most EK pilots have trouble answering- where do you go?

Even the Americans can find this question hard to answer- I recently had a conversation with a US pilot who related how, despite being eminently qualified, could not get an interview with a US major as they are still in the mindset that a bright-eyed young regional pilot, of which there are still many, is the ideal candidate. Many US flight departments can't get their minds around why a guy would leave an imminent wide-body, international command to come fly an MD-80 as FO out of pig-knuckle Arkansas.

But, even if every American in EK got a job with a major, that still leaves 90% of the company.

The Europeans might go to Ryan, Norwegian or EZ- all, in this era of a supposed competitive market for pilots, offering packages that are materially inferior, but have the advantage of being in or at least near a lot of peoples home.

Some will leave for that, but it is never likely to match the number coming the other way, and still leaves the 80% or so who originate from other geographical regions, and for whom there is nothing on offer that even remotely compares.

So where? China? Perhaps for a few, but the Chinese reputation for reneging on contracts, and the view that most Chinese corporate cultures are even worse that EK will limit it to a few.

Bottom line- attrition may become problematic, and recruitment challenging- but a huge exodus with no ability to replace? IMHO very unlikely.

[paokara]

How they factor your bunk hrs towards your 92 hrs base pay?


2/1 or how.... Flying 110 hrs UL trips and credit for 92 since the bunk hrs factored?

[Wizofoz]

Bunk time is 100% paid for in terms of productivity.

Bunk time while augment ting doesn't count toward monthly and annual hour limits.

[anson harris]

Filion - ""do they ever get back to you?"
It's a yes from me. Sorry to spoil your story.

[Fire Ball XL5]

Harris,... Good on you! I'll stick with Flion on this one as I've NEVER had a response from HR or Ops on any "I'll get back to you " issue..... But feel free to continue with YOUR story.... :=

[jack schidt]

Bunk time! Am I correct in the fact that bunk time is counted as total hours when considering the minimum required to upgrade for both expat and local pilots. However, bunk time is NOT counted when it comes to annual hours flown?

Bunk time seems to suit 1 rule to get people in the left seat quickly and then suit another rule to make people fly more hours which doesn't then count as hours flown?

Jack

[Pointer]

Recently on a recurrent ground school day: the Wise men/woman from the bouncy castle didn't even make an appearance (on a week day!!) and only bothered to tell the ground instructor well after lunch :ok: , so whoever didn't drive in was shafted on transport as well.. I'm sure they had the difficult choice to make.. "face Angry pilots (and tell lies) or leave the office early?? eh.." :D


Pointer :E

[seasexsun]

Where do european pilots go if they leave Emirates? There is no jobs for widebody pilots in Europe. If they all try to go back to Ryanair, Wizzair and easyjet that's funny...or pathetic.
This airline industry has realy become a joke.

[Fire Ball XL5]

Pointer...^^^^^^ My last two wash ups.... Exactly the same! ���� not that we expected anything

[SonOfAGunn]

On a recent wash up HR lady confirmed EK are looking at part time flying for its pilots, i.e 1 month on, 1 month off like another local carrier is rumoured to be doing for its pilots already. This was confirmed by the chief pilot next to her. Has anyone else heard the rumour or asked the question of HR and managements?

[north flyer]

I was in a wash up where the one month on/off was talked about. The why I understood it, it was only going to be offered to new pilots as a why to get them to come.

[sluggums]

Ahh yes... The old "dangle-a-non-existent-carrot-and-they'll-all-stay" trick.

I'd bet a lot of my salary that at this point in time it's just done to place doubt in the minds of people planning to leave.

It'll never happen cause 80% of the pilots will apply...

[anson harris]

Month on, month off sounds nice, but I imagine for most Europeans thinking of returning home during that 1 month off period, they would be then required to pay tax on what is already (presumably) half a salary). In the case of the UK, the maximum amount of time you can spend there is 90 days to remain tax free. Anyway, all I'm saying is, would it work for many people?

[break dancer]

Have to agree with AHarris on the ""do they ever get back to you?"

I sent an email to JA who responded with 5 days re. the lowering of productivity affecting the increased difficulty with swapping.

Got a response with nothing substantial in it, with no changes to the system.

At least I vented productively offering alternatives which made me feel better, albeit briefly, very briefly............

[fliion]

A.Harris,

Can you give us an idea of the feedback that was given to ALL of the guys in your RGTS specific group - which is what I asserted.

Not in for a scrap just want to make sure you read my post correctly...and that is that the individual took the effort to look up all the pilots in that select group and respond

Standing by

Break dancer - you didn't read my post correctly, have another go.

f.

[anson harris]

Filion - no idea to be honest, you'd have to ask them.
I'm sure if any of them really cared enough they could have asked me to send them the feedback - none did.

[alwayzinit]

"Bottom line- attrition may become problematic, and recruitment challenging- but a huge exodus with no ability to replace? IMHO very unlikely."

You wouldn't be saying that had you gone to the Westin today.

[fliion]

AH

"No idea to be honest"

Thank you for proving my point ... most of us do care...

and you still will not state that all of your group were contacted by said HR and copied on feedback .

Break dancer?

f.

[kipper the dog]

Why, what happened at the Westin alwayzinit? I know it was the jet2 show, many from EK turn up?

[Nikita81]

There will be no mass exodus (although, history knows how to surprise. Take a look at thousands of migrants in Europe these days. Nobody expected them, certainly not in that number). Company will slowly shut down or it will become irrelevant on the market. Some other, better, company will emerge somewhere and it will attract all the best people, or some old, etsablished company will change their approach once planes start to crash every month - in that kind of circumstances, safety will sell the tickets. It will take years for that, maybe even decades, but the ineviatable fall has begun.

What goes around, comes around. Ask migrants.

[Uplink]

It's very simple ref the wash ups. For my last 12 ppc's I have seen the bouncy castle reps twice. The rest were done on the weekend, bar one where training came down (GM) lectured us and then wouldn't field any questions. We were then told management couldn't make it! So how about we just don't turn up to the wash up? Save you getting false promises of a reply, save you being bollocked by a manager with the interpersonal skills of a slug and finally saves you from listening to their bull****. It's a win win the. As they don't want to be there either and we don't want to listen to them....

[alwayzinit]

The Westin and Jet 2

The whole atmosphere was relaxed and very open, boxes of Yorkshire Tea and Hobnobs as a backdrop to the coffee station was a nice touch IMHO.

Company is expanding, OWNS all its aircraft currently 53 and growing.

Simply put, they want experienced wide body (bodied!:E) Captains. They are aware it takes time to disentangle oneself from here as well and are flexible about timings etc .

The money was no secret 101,500 per annum all in Gross, so roughly 5,500 pm net.

I thought it was refreshingly honest and open, if you are not hooked on big bucks (Ha!) and want to get back to Blighty, its workable.:ok:

[Emma Royds]

The money was no secret 101,500 per annum all in Gross, so roughly 5,500 pm net.

Worth highlighting that your monthly take home will be noticeably less than the above during the winter months. The equivalent annual salary won't reach six figures.

[Mr Good Cat]

c5.5k net in summer, c4.5k net in winter... But lots of time off the airplane in winter of course. Pay could be better but when you balance it all out, routine daytime flying and being home every night is a big pull for the guys with families. To each their own, but works for me....

[Schnowzer]

Hob Nobs and a right proper brew! Bloody Hell when are they coming back

[Mr Good Cat]

Hob Nobs and a right proper brew! Bloody Hell when are they coming back

For anyone from south of the Watford Gap, just be careful trying the Yorkshire Brew. Any more than one cup and you might start embarrassing yourself in public and in front of the recruiters. And we don't want that.

[alwayzinit]

Emma R quite right, however, we all have schemes and projects that need our time.
Personally in a previous outfit I renovated our house and made a 100K ukp over one winter! So you pays your money you takes your choice!

Was thinking of doing a plumbing course and employing some apprentices that the Gov will pay for!.........................

[Geebz]

Wait, are you guys saying you're not getting compensated for time in the bunk? Are kidding me?

[SOPS]

Time in the bunk is not counted towards your duty hours. As in your 100 in 28 or 900 in 365. This applies to crew that is augmenting.

[fatbus]

But you get paid for every hour and they count towards productivity .

[TangoUniform]

Back to the exodus......six letters of resignation last week. And the beat goes on.:cool:

[Panther 88]

What I can't wrap my head around is 5 plus years ago, there were very few alternatives to EK and the terms and conditions were somewhat fair and reasonable. Not as much as ten years ago, but either way there were very few alternatives for a good stable airline.

Fast forward to today's employment enviornment with numerous alternatives to the big E, and the terms and conditions are worse now than have ever been. Massive hours, leaves not allocated, no pay raises, upgrades being unfilled, etc. etc. But new aircraft still being delivered and continued expansion. A static pilot workforce of around 3800 plus. With alternative employment, pilots are taking the advice of managers who have for years spewed, if you don't like it, you can leave. And the resignations of the junior cabin crew just continue on.

Who in the world is in charge? They (whomever they are) have built a fantastic brand, and for the most part, a fantastic airline. The brand continues, but as a service provider, IT'S THE PEOPLE, that make the airline. And the apathy amongst both CC and pilots is frightening. Go the extra mile? Only the personal professionalism of the CC, pilots, and ground staff is keeping this airline together. And EVERYONE, I say again, EVERYONE I fly with is looking to leave, including trainers, CRMIs, and even cubicle dwelling pilots. Sorry, most of the UAE nationals seem to be staying, even though many of them have bolted for a big airline south of here.

When Qatar is a preferred airline for employment, those with the strings here have lost the plot, totally. Can someone please explain this?

[BigGeordie]

I can explain it:

Greed, hurbis, arrogance. I think it started when the front page of Safar had a huge headline which said, "Unstoppable" a few years back. Just before the financial crisis. Those at the top believe their own PR which is reinforced by the middle mangers who are terrified of passing on bad news.

[Gander_Radio]

Maybe because things have recently improved significantly in Qatar Airways, and things have deteriorated significantly in Emirates.

I'm imagining a frightening exodus if Doha picks up the pace in being a relatively decent place to live in the Middle East which is not far from now to say the least.

Time will as always tell,

Gander

[170to5]

SOPS

I may be wrong (the issue doesn't really come up on the 330) but I believe that bunk time is still factored, but still partially counts, towards totals...the thing about it not being counted at all hasn't been implemented.

Yet...

[SOPS]

My two cents worth..its hubris. They ( at the top, and some Costa dwellers in middle management), believe EK is the greatest airline in the world to work for, and Dubai is the greatest place in the world to live.

Things have changed. The package EK offer is no longer great. It may still look good on paper, but the reality is different. The arrogance of management knows no bounds, they just keep on changing T and C as they see fit.

Living in Dubai ( in my opinion), has become problematic. Aside from all the problems that have been discussed here before, you are now living in the Middle East, a very very unstable part of the world.

People move to the ME, to be compisated for it, living as Expats. EK has lost sight of this, they think they are offering a product that is the equivalant of moving to Sydney, New York or London. This is far, far, far, from the truth.

The goal posts have moved big time, when I look back,at my 9 years there, I look back at the job I went to, and the job I left. The only similarity was that I flew a 777.

Just my thoughts.

[Trader]

It may well get worse especially as oil prices decline further and will likely stay depressed for several years. China has devalued its currency as have a few other 'petro' nations. There are many who believe that Saudi and the UAE will do so as well - which will, essentially, be a decrease on pay.

[ExDubai]

Things have changed. The package EK offer is no longer great. It may still look good on paper, but the reality is different. The arrogance of management knows no bounds, they just keep on changing T and C as they see fit.


Yepp, it's an average package. Beside the working conditions the cost of living in DXB are the biggest issue. With the next world economic crisis already on the radar, DXB needs to have a close look on their business model. Only tourism and real estate isn't sustainable. I doubt that EK's future is that bright as certain people believe.

[ExDubai]

It may well get worse especially as oil prices decline further and will likely stay depressed for several years. China has devalued its currency as have a few other 'petro' nations. There are many who believe that Saudi and the UAE will do so as well - which will, essentially, be a decrease on pay.
Wait when the VAT is coming, that will hit really hard on the salaries.

[Sky Hooker]

With Oil prices going down south and other commodities soon to follow.
It's going to be worse than than the 2008 crisis.
We never got out of the last financial crisis and this time it's going to have some huge implifications we never seen before.
Saudia will be ok for max 3-4 years, before all foreign reserves will be eaten up by the huge budget deficit. Need 100 dollars a barrel to keep this party going!
China have been manipulating growth figures for years like rest of the world,but it's catching up with everyone else soon. China's stocks crashing and currency getting devalued. Big currency war going everywhere around the world.
All this money printing and low interest rates is going to to come back and bite big time. Economics is like a cycle and usually every 7 years we have a recession,and I believe come Sep 2015 we will see lots of crashes in the stock market and finally the housing market will burst.
I just hope it doesn't look this bleak but I am afraid we have a met a dead end,and the biggest financial Institutions have no ammunition left to play with.
Interest rate at Zero for 7 years and all the money printing and still we have no growth...........Welcome to the modern day of slavery.
Buckle up its going to get ugly.

[Emma Royds]

The next year has the potential to be interesting. TCAS is expected to leave by the end of the year and Sir TC is tipped to be not far behind him.

Above all though is the need for the deranged lunatic to leave as well. I somehow can't see that happening as he seems to be far too well connected. Even our local colleagues that we share the flight deck with, have very little to say about him that is complimentary in nature.

[jack schidt]

Sky Hooker, good post and I share your sentiments on the position of the market. Lets hope the boys in the Middle East aren't too busy making up for the lack of crew to look into the markets and where global events are going. The ME had a soft landing last downturn, I don't think it will be the same this time. This chart has some worrying implications. With the current situation on recruitment and people leaving, it will be good to stay safe in the markets so you don't have to work in the ME longer than is necessary. Looking at that chart 900 target has to be considered.


http://i.imgur.com/x45cER5.jpg



Jack

[Ophion]

“WE LOST SOMETHING LIKE $600 MILLION IN 1994. IN 1995, WE MADE $225 MILLION—WITH THE SAME PEOPLE AND THE SAME AIRPLANES. SO, IT WASN’T ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE EMPLOYEES. IT WAS THE MANAGEMENT—AND IT ALWAYS IS.”

https://www.freeenterprise.com/management-advice-from-gordon-bethune-the-ceo-who-saved-continental-airlines/

Simples.

[kingpost]

To slow down the exodus, don't you think working 1 month on - 1 month off is a good option to offer right now. You either lose 2 people or gain 1, at least you are keeping one pilot. What would you consider are reasonable package for one off - one on, let me start:

1. To qualify, a Captain with 15 years service in the company and over 50.
2. Half your basic salary.
3. Half the accommodation allowance or be put up in a 4 Star hotel when in DXB - no Premier Inn!!
4. Half the schooling allowance entitlement paid throughout the year with you salary every 2 months.
5. Operate out of your base or get fly as a pax to DXB business class upgradable.
6. Retain all travel benefits.
7. No change to provident contributions.
8. Full medical coverage for you.
9. Sim check, CRM and SEP worked into the month when operating.
10. Retainer on the month off - haven't thought of a figure yet!
11. Overtime kicks in at 78 hours at 1.75 time your hourly rate.
12. Normal hourly flying rate.

Just think, they could work you 600 hours in those months, that's productive!

[Laker]

So about $6,000usd per month to be a 777/380 CA? Up to 99 hours flying plus ground duties followed by a month off to recover?

Hmmm. Doesn't sound very tempting. You can make about three times that doing month on month off out of China.

[kingpost]

Dead right, I cocked that one up, I was thinking of a monthly payment and then switched to payment when on duty. So how's this then:

1. To qualify, a Captain with 15 years service in the company and over 50.
2. Full basic salary monthly, that can account for the retainer.
3. Half the accommodation allowance or be put up in a 4 Star hotel when in DXB - no Premier Inn!!
4. Full schooling allowance entitlement paid when you are working.
5. Operate out of your base or get fly as a pax to DXB business class upgradable.
6. Retain all travel benefits.
7. Company pays 7.5% of basic salary to the provident fund as a contribution.
8. Full medical coverage for you.
9. Sim check, CRM and SEP worked into the month when operating.
10. Retainer on the month off - haven't thought of a figure yet!
11. Overtime kicks in at 88 hours at 2 times your hourly rate.
12. Normal hourly flying rate.

With the amount of work right now, I'm not going to see it past the next year and a half so I would like to see some sort of initiative like this being incorporated. I enjoy flying for EK, great aircraft, nice people to work with ON THE AIRCRAFT and great route network, unless you're on the 330. I would rather stay, work less than going across to China, surely there must be a cost associated to that as well?

[SOPS]

LZ DOC...you think it can't get worse. IMHO, you are very wrong.

[Kapitanleutnant]

LZ.... U think you're going to fly long haul on the EK 330 do you?? Son, do your homework. Neighbor who is 330 captain with 8 years at EK told me he has had no more than 8 days off each month for 6 months consecutive... And only two layovers... In 6 Months! So much for the long haul career you speak of.

K

[SOPS]

He won't believe you, Kaptain.

[cerbus]

Can't get much worse at EK? You have got to be kidding!
It is going to get worse and not by a little bit. Oil falling and debts rising. Pilots leaving and no one qualified joining.
As sops says, interesting times ahead.

[SOPS]

I was lucky enough to be able to leave. We own our house, our cars, and our total credit card debt is $500 dollars. I have just converted all our other investments into cash. ( they were basically in cash anyway, I have now changed then so I can access them).

I think there are rocky roads ahead. China is in meltdown.The worlds second biggest economy.

IMHO, things don't look good.

[The Outlaw]

LZ

Allow me to be as objective as possible. Almost everything you read here is factual, its you who doesn't seem to want to accept it as truth. There was a time 10 years ago that one would aspire to come here and would rightfully feel fortunate for having been selected however that was then...and this is now, and the two are simply not the same anymore. I think you are hanging your hopes on very outdated intel.

What is written here are the observations, frustrations and experiences of people who have been here for long enough to learn the realities. They share these experiences with people like you perhaps who are on fact finding missions about how things are here. Its the hope of those who post here to enlighten the world of what we have lived in our time here.

If you choose to dismiss or reject this info then by all means come and try it out...and go where so many before you have.

As for the bond, here are the facts:

It was raised from 36,000 and 3 years to 45,000 and 5 years to stop the exodus of junior pilots. Those who signed the bond and left within one year generally lost only very little because their provident fund was effectively worthless. The new bond is designed to deter those who want to bolt from 2-5 years seniority as their pension funds would have appreciable value and the company would claw all of it back, including your contribution.

[Mr Good Cat]

usual whining and flogging common for 90% of the threads in this forum.
As I said previously, I do not believe there is perfect job.

I know where you're coming from with this, but please consider something about that statement you made:

In your home country, you get annoyed and disappointed in your job for sure... But when you leave that aeroplane you go home and you are free and away from work. You have control, you have a certain degree of predictability and you have the laws/regulations of your home country.

Now, if you are to give up that element of freedom outside of work and control like so many have - you expect to be rewarded as such and enjoy the benefits of the contract you signed.

Of course the decision is entirely yours and as a skipper you're using your good judgment to determine the outcome. People here are just providing you with some useful info on the threats and factors to help you with that decision. It's not whining really, just useful evidence to add to the big picture before you commit yourself to a rash decision. Worth bearing in mind that pilots are bad gamblers and make a lot of bad financial decisions....

Good luck in whatever you choose :cool:

[SOPS]

I think what is really hard to explain to people on the outside, Good Cat, is how the company controls almost every part of your life. If you have not experienced it, it is very hard to understand, let alone explain.

That, IMHO, is where the problem lies.

[keepitrealok]

Your villa is still empty SOPS. ;)

As is your (Ryanair escapee) next door neighbour's. :D

As is the one 4 doors up.

As are the few next street over.

As are the ones.......get the picture. :ok:

[SOPS]

Are they sending all the new joiners to Meydan?

[keepitrealok]

Looks that way.

Lots of empty villas around here......

[Nikita81]

So far I get the usual whining and flogging common for 90% of the threads in this forum.

True. But why do you think that it's not common for 30 or 40% of the threads, but all 90%?

As I said previously, I do not believe there is perfect job.

But there is a job you love to do.

[Panther 88]

LZ, look at facts, not opinions. Leave is allocated as they see fit. Majority of pilots not getting their 42 days, only 30. And at times given in four day blocks.

Pilots flying anywhere from 90 to 100 hours per month with no common sense in rostering. You will be flying a good majority of your flights between 2200-0800.

Zero recourse with regards a perceived grievance.

Uncalled for and arbitrary medical testing. You are at the mercy of the company doctors.

NO substantial pay raise for years now. When will one be forth coming? If one was not awarded last year after the second most profitable year.....then what?

No choice, for all practicable purposes, on where you will reside. Of course you may move out of company accommodations, but then at the mercy of some unscrupulous landlords.

And finally, there is a reason that Cabin Crew are resigning in the hundreds monthly.

Your call, mate. All facts, not opinion or speculation.

[in freedom]

Don't forget that once you sign on YOU ARE TRAPPED. No significant leave, no useable off days and then the 5 weeks reserve. When do you think you will go somewhere else for an assessment?
In addition there are the financial penalties. You will be stuck in Dubai whether you like it or not.

[olster]

LZ, you might try to be courteous to your prospective, future colleagues. Rather than quoting the 'usual whining'. Essentially, you know nothing as to what is going on here but as is common, trying to make the facts fit despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that DEC assessment.

[what-to-do]

LZ,

Maybe you could start by referring to Pakistanis as Pakistanis. The term 'Paki' is regarded as a derogatory phrase these days. But then again, you would know that if you knew the area so well.....

WTD

[Nikita81]

For example: if you are so unhappy, what keeps you there? There must be something besides the golden shackles?Yes there is:

Don't forget that once you sign on YOU ARE TRAPPED.

[SOPS]

' you understand that you have to bend over when you start chasing the dollars'

EK is going to love you, big time! Expect to spend a lot of time in the bent over position.

[The Outlaw]

^^^^^^^^^^

What he said....:D:D