Can anyone identify these ribbons?

[Al R]

I don't know why I say 'anyone'.. :ok:;)

https://twitter.com/nickonslow/status/631691972839927808

[CoffmanStarter]

Al ...

I'll have a go ...

39/45 Star, Italy Star, Defence Medal, 39/45 War Medal

Looks like Royal Engineers Bombs on the lapels.

But I could be wrong ...

TTN is probably our best man to help ...

Coff.

[Al R]

I thought he might be, thanks mate. Good stab! :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Got them in one, Coff :ok:

The grenade collars (and the grenade badge on his glengarry) could well be Royal Engineers, but they could also be Royal Artillery. The two are distinguished only by the number of flames bursting from the grenade - two extra small ones on the RE version - but you can't really get that amount of detail from the painting.

[Al R]

Passed on, thank you.

[Pontius Navigator]

Much more fun trying to identify Cpl Jones's medals.

[Wander00]

Not Royal Highland Fusiliers is he? The regiment David Niven would not join at any price

[Union Jack]

Not Royal Highland Fusiliers is he? The regiment David Niven would not join at any price

No not Royal Highland Fusiliers, which did not form until 1959, when the Royal Scots Fusiliers and the Highland Light Infantry, in which David Niven was commissioned, were amalgamated. So no wonder he couldn't join it at any price!:)

However, Wanders was nearly there since I suggest that our bespectacled Captain was in fact a Royal Scots Fusilier.

Jack (aka Jock)

PS One day, if I can get round to it, I might enlarge on the difficulties that apparently arose between the amalgamation of a predominantly Protestant Lowland regiment and a predominantly Catholic Highland regiment, and how they were cleverly resolved.:ok:

[Wander00]

UJ - silly me, but only excuse very jaded today having been kept awake most of the night by thunder storms and serious rain. Of course you are correct -Royal Scots Fusiliers, and Niven did not want to join the HLI. Thanks


W

[langleybaston]

having been kept awake most of the night by thunder storms and serious rain

there are advantages in being

1. DEAF without hearing aids

2. a blase old Met Man!

PS how do I do clever Froggy accent thingies? Acute grave circumcised?

[CoffmanStarter]

PN ...

Much more fun trying to identify Cpl Jones's medals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_Jones

Funny you should say that ... someone has had a go ;)

Coff

[Union Jack]

No worries Wander00, and I can sympathise having been subjected to very similar night-time weather, and daytime temperatures in the mid 30s, close to Uzes last week, although I have to admit that the thunderstorms did not keep me awake.:ok:

Royal Scots Fusiliers, and Niven did not want to join the HLI.

As a contrast, it may be of interest that a certain Air Commodore** Winston Churchill was quite happy to join the Royal Scots Fusiliers, and took command of the 6th Battalion on the Western Front in 1915, following the unsuccessful Gallipoli campaign, before it was amalgamated with the 7th Battalion, whose CO was senior to Churchill and so took command of the 6/7th, and Churchill returned to the Commons.

Jack

** Military Aviation link:)

[Wander00]

UJ - thanks - knew about that one. I must say the guy in the painting looks awfully studious/serious

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Thanks to that Wiki link for Cpl Jones, you have just restored my faith in humanity I think. Dads Army is essential viewing in our house, and despite having the "full set" on DVD we will always find any re transmissions and watch for fun. It's noteworthy that all his medals seem to chime with the characters professed former service, I wonder if modern programme makers go to such lengths of accuracy.

Smudge :ok:

[ExGrunt]

Just to go back to the original request.

With that combination of medals he must have served in the 2nd Bn the RSF, which was the only one to serve in the Italian campaign as part of the 17th Infantry brigade (5th Division), after returning from the far East in 1943.

I would hazard a guess that the officer in question joined on the return from the Far East and had been based in the UK prior to that - hence the Defence Medal.

The Bn took part in Operation Husky (the invasion of Sicily) and also took part in the first assault on Monte Cassino.

HTH

EG

[Tankertrashnav]

Re the possibilty of his serving in the The Royal Scots Fusiliers. The officer is wearing a grenade badge on his glengarry. If you look carefully you will see there appears to be a scroll at the base of the grenade. Both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery officers wore a grenade cap badge on certain headdress, with a scroll with the word "Ubique" (everywhere) which is the motto of both the RA and the RE. The RSF grenade badge on the other hand, did not have a scroll at the base, and thus I am pretty sure this officer is either RE or RA, not RSF. Incidentally the fact that he is wearing a glengarry does not mean he was necessarily in a Scottish regiment. In 22 years in the REME my son at various times wore a khaki beret with his REME badge when he was attached to the Irish Guards and a tam o'shanter when he was attached to the Black Watch, and his dark blue REME beret at other times. This officer may well have been attached to a regiment which wore the glengarry, but retained his own headdress and collar badges. Of course if anyone could enlarge those collar badges and see a thistle on them, then we are back to him being in the RSF!

Best I can do.

[Al R]

"Best I can do" :E:D:8

Wonderful, made me laugh. Passed on chaps, thanks.

[Al R]

And a couple of replies. A clearer portrait and reference to RSF..

[teeteringhead]

"Ubique" (everywhere) which is the motto of both the RA and the RE One was once told - probably by a Sapper - that in the case of the RA, Ubique was better translated as "all over the place"!

The Gunners - in response - claimed it did mean "everywhere" but was a Battle Honour rather than a motto.....

[Al R]

There can't have been many junior officers given to having their portrait painted so frequently.

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, I wonder when the authors realised they needed to create a full biography for Jones?

Or Fraser?

I have seen an excellent Amdram performance of the first lost episodes and that before I saw it on TV. Side splitting with lots of laughs from what you couldn't see as well as what you could.

[Union Jack]

If you look carefully you will see there appears to be a scroll at the base of the grenade. Both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery officers wore a grenade cap badge on certain headdress, with a scroll with the word "Ubique" (everywhere) which is the motto of both the RA and the RE. The RSF grenade badge on the other hand, did not have a scroll at the base, and thus I am pretty sure this officer is either RE or RA, not RSF.

Of course if anyone could enlarge those collar badges and see a thistle on them, then we are back to him being in the RSF!

Somewhat diffidently, since TTN is such an acknowledged expert in the field, I have to say - on the lines of Nelson at Copenhagen!:) - that I see no scroll - and have zoomed up to 500% before putting my head above the parapet! Equally, and remembering that this is a portrait and not a photograph so we are somewhat at the mercy of the artist, I cannot see a thistle on the collar badge grenades, the flames on which differ between RE, RA, and RSF, the last being the most ornate.

I therefore still go for RSF....:ok:

I should also apologise for referring to the subject as"our bespectacled Captain" since I believe, having magnified the image, that he is in fact a Lieutenant Colonel, which may make more sense in respect of having his portrait painted, perhaps as the CO at the time.

In any case, all we need is the subject's name, if Mr Onslow knows it, and all would quickly become clear, particularly if someone has the relevant Army List available.

Jack

[Danny42C]

langleybaston,

As your #10 has fallen on stony ground, can't resist passing on the one little thing I do know:

Press the "Alt" key while typing the following numbers on the numberpad on the right of your keyboard. You need to have the "Num Lock" function on:

Upper Case:

À ALT+0192
 ALT+0194
Ä ALT+0196
È ALT+0200
É ALT+0201
Ê ALT+0202
Ë ALT+0203
Î ALT+0206
Ï ALT+0207
Ô ALT+0212
ΠALT+0140
Ù ALT+0217
Û ALT+0219
Ü ALT+0220
Ÿ ALT+0159

Lower Case Vowels Vwl ALT Code

à ALT+0224
â ALT+0226
ä ALT+0228
è ALT+0232
é ALT+0233
ê ALT+0234
ë ALT+0235
î ALT+0238
ï ALT+0239
ô ALT+0244
œ ALT+0156
ù ALT+0249
û ALT+0251
ü ALT+0252
ý ALT+0253 (E & O E !)

Cheers, Danny.

PS: David Niven (The Moon's a Balloon) - great read. D.

[Tinribs]

There seems to be an increase in people wearing medals and other badges they are not entitled to. I think this habit is a disgrace to both the wearer and those who have won the decorations.

I have seen a clown wearing pilot officers rank braid with a WOs hat, medal ribbons from campaigns they could not possibly have attended and awards they seem not to match. Especially to be despised are youths at air displays wearing pilots wings on civilian sweaters. I am aware of an ex soldier claiming to be a WO but his demeanor does not match that respectable rank

Is there a website allowing a check of an individuals rank and decorations?

[CoffmanStarter]

Danny ... Much easier to get a Mac :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, I didn't have time to discuss Langley' s circumcision but did think in the circumstances I think he meant circumflex.

[Army Mover]

If you look carefully you will see there appears to be a scroll at the base of the grenade. Both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery officers wore a grenade cap badge on certain headdress, with a scroll with the word "Ubique" (everywhere) which is the motto of both the RA and the RE. The RSF grenade badge on the other hand, did not have a scroll at the base, and thus I am pretty sure this officer is either RE or RA, not RSF.

Of course if anyone could enlarge those collar badges and see a thistle on them, then we are back to him being in the RSF!

Somewhat diffidently, since TTN is such an acknowledged expert in the field, I have to say - on the lines of Nelson at Copenhagen!:) - that I see no scroll - and have zoomed up to 500% before putting my head above the parapet! Equally, and remembering that this is a portrait and not a photograph so we are somewhat at the mercy of the artist, I cannot see a thistle on the collar badge grenades, the flames on which differ between RE, RA, and RSF, the last being the most ornate.

I therefore still go for RSF....:ok:

I should also apologise for referring to the subject as"our bespectacled Captain" since I believe, having magnified the image, that he is in fact a Lieutenant Colonel, which may make more sense in respect of having his portrait painted, perhaps as the CO at the time.

In any case, all we need is the subject's name, if Mr Onslow knows it, and all would quickly become clear, particularly if someone has the relevant Army List available.

Jack

Just to add that in my experience, you are unlikely (I never came across it in 24 years of service) to get a Lt Col attached to another regiment and adopting that Regiments identity; that said, I'm aware of Senior Officers from the same Regimental Division swapping to another Regiment in the same Division on promotion.

[Tankertrashnav]

No need for diffidence, U-J - I thought I could see a scroll but I'm working on a laptop screen (and less than 20/20 vision). If there isn't one there, (some some errant pixels maybe) then the evidence swings back to the RSF, especially as he is apparently a lieutenant colonel. I certainly never take exception to anyone querying my opinion - only a pompous fool thinks he is infallible!

tinribs - Navy/Army and RAF lists will show officers' ranks, orders and decorations, but I know of no easily accessible source which lists campaign medals - you would have to go to each individual's service record for that.

[langleybaston]

Danny, thank you, copied printed and pasted!

[1066]

In the Memorial Hall at Royal Wootton Bassett within a display of medals there is a set of miniatures with the last two medals missing. They were rescued from a skip and the owner is unknown.

1939/45 Star
Aircrew Europe Star (qualification period 3 Sep 39 to 5 Jun 44)
Pacific Star with Oakleaf ( Mentioned in Dispatches)(No clasp for Burma)
(qualification period 8 Dec 41 to 2 Sep 45)
Defence Medal
War Medal
MISSING
MISSING

I have some thoughts on the possibilities for the missing medals but initially I'll refrain from sharing them so that I don't influence any other thoughts.

All suggestions welcome plus any thoughts on the chances of identifying the owner.

1066

[Tankertrashnav]

I'd say a fairly slim chance of identifying the recipient, as although it's a fairly unusual combination, with the ACE and Pacific Stars, it's by no means unique.
The two missing medals obviously suggest post war service. There are a few possibilities, a GSM with one of the post war clasps, followed by the LS&GC if the recipient is non commissioned would be a reasonable guess, or else both issues of the GSM. Less likely for the last medal, but possible, would be the Air Efficiency Award if the chap was in the RAuxAF or RAFVR. There are other possibilities of course, but you get the picture - it would seem to be a pretty hopeless task finishing the group with any degree of certainty that it is correct.

Incidentally the oakleaf should not be on the Pacific Star, but the War Medal, as that is the medal which carries the MID emblem, regardless of what theatre the MID was for.

[1066]

TTN,
Thanks for those thoughts.
GSM + LSGC were one of my thoughts.
Air Efficiency + Cadet Forces Medal is a possibility.
How about Korea + UN. They always go together.
Sunderlands based in Japan took part in the Korean War.
At Lindholme in '69/70 we had a Master Engineer who had been on Sunderlands prior to Hastings and later a Nav who had the Korean pair from being on Sunderlands.
He had also been on Brits so maybe I need to find a 'mature' gentleman with a WW11 record + Sunderland, Britannia background who lived and probably passed away in Wootton Basset as it was then. And also an officer to rule out the LSGC!
I thought about the positioning of the oakleaf after I posted here as my father still has the instructions from 1946 re the oakleaf, as you say, to be placed on the War Medal.
Might the error give a clue as to the theatre where the citation for the MID originated?
As you say not an easy task.
Any more thoughts welcome,
1066

[rlsbutler]

We might have been content with TTN (#31) saying “There are other possibilities of course” – but we were not. Suggestions have so far been post-WWII. So I take the liberty of mentioning a few others.

One possibility is the 1937 Coronation Medal. If you would consider adding to that the 1935 Jubilee Medal, you are postulating an authentic “Uncle” figure likely, after an early tour on bombers for instance, to be confined to HQ to make the most of his age and experience.

Such an “Uncle” was unlikely to be in a position to earn a Mention in Despatches in a later campaign. So instead of the pre-war medals, two others might be considered.

One is because in both world wars quite a lot of brave men were awarded a mention when they were recommended for some higher award. As some compensation, the protocols of which I know nothing, a French or Belgian Croix-de-Guerre or other allied award might be awarded for the gallantry. In the Pacific theatre, the source might most usually be the USA which (Wikipedia says) awarded 258 Distinguished Service Crosses to non-US combatants in WWII. What makes this suggestion attractive is that its relative rarity might explain why the medal was extracted from the group.

Another WWII medal suited to the missing location is one of several exclusive to members of Dominion air forces for their war service. My father was a Brit in the Canadian army and therefore wore the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal immediately after his Victory Medal. I think I am right in noting that the Indian equivalent of such a medal could not be claimed if the applicant was entitled to the Defence Medal - which narrows the search ever so slightly. The Australia Service Medal would be the prime candidate, I should think.

[BEagle]

langleybaston, a simpler way of using special characters is to find 'Character Map' on a (Windows) computer, then create a short cut or add it to the 'start' list. In Win7 it's in 'Accessories' > 'System Tools'...or just use 'Search programs and files' and type in 'Character Map'.

I often need to use German characters such as ß, ü, ö etc - and there are also useful mathematical items and fractions..... ¼ ± ½ etc. ô, ç, ñ, ø etc are also all there for other languages.

[Warmtoast]

BEagle & Danny

Character Map Reference Card. This came with my copy of Corel Draw some years ago. I keep it handy near the computer. Second column is for Windows.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image2_zpsas2hky5k.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image1_zpsvj0fc9wb.jpg

[parabellum]

My one and only medal, GSM 1962, has my name etc. engraved around the rim, presumably none of these medals in 1066's post have that?

[Tankertrashnav]

The group that 1066 is referring to consists of miniatures, which of course are not named. However even if they were full size they would not be named, unless they had been done unofficially. The practice of naming British campaign medals, which started with the Waterloo Medal, was suspended for the issue of WW2 medals, but resumed thereafter.

As for the two missing medals, lots of alternative suggestions, all of which are possible. I very much doubt if you could trace the chap by looking for MIDs for the Pacific theatre. This would involve trawling through endless pages of the London Gazettes from the period, and trying to extract likely candidates from the lists of names of recipients of mentions.

[Genstabler]

Just to add that in my experience, you are unlikely (I never came across it in 24 years of service) to get a Lt Col attached to another regiment and adopting that Regiments identity; that said, I'm aware of Senior Officers from the same Regimental Division swapping to another Regiment in the same Division on promotion.

I was in a line infantry regiment. We had a Guards Lt Col posted in as CO who adopted our identity during his appointment. He rebadged back to the Guards when he left us and subsequently commanded 1 (BR) Corps.

[Al R]

This thread is why I like Prune.

[Army Mover]

I was in a line infantry regiment. We had a Guards Lt Col posted in as CO who adopted our identity during his appointment. He rebadged back to the Guards when he left us and subsequently commanded 1 (BR) Corps.

Found him - Peter Leng? If not, then there are even more and I am suitably chastised. :uhoh:

[Union Jack]

This thread is why I like Prune. - Al R plus

Found him - Peter Leng? - Army Mover

Me too - I knew (= was acquainted with:=) his daughter once upon a time.:ok:

Well, you started it, Al R! Let us know if you are free to tell us more about what led to Mr Onslow's original request?

Jack

[Al R]

Given the speed with which the chap on Twitter posted the responses, I half thought the subject was a family member of his. I might get back to him and ask him.