RAF Typhoons vs Indian Flankers

[Peter Carter]

There's an article in the Times this morning about an Indian detachment to Coningsby where the IAF claims a 12-0 victory over the RAF in ACT. Title is: "We humiliated RAF pilots". Anyone know what really happened?

[jwcook]

A spokesman for the Royal Air Force said the U.K. air arm’s analysis of the results from the exercise did not tally with the NDTV report.

“Our analysis does not match what has been reported. RAF pilots and the Typhoon performed well throughout the exercise with and against the Indian Air Force,” the RAF spokesman said. “Both nations learnt a great deal from the exercise and the RAF look forward to the next opportunity to train alongside the IAF.”

RAF sources told Aviation Week the score of 12-0 did not figure in any of the post-exercise analysis and that the Typhoons were not using the full capability of their weapon systems and that in the “realistic operational” scenarios conducted during the exercise, the Typhoon performance was superior.

Tony Osborne, August 6th AvWeek

[P6 Driver]

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[Lordflasheart]

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises (http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336)

I wonder if they've got their AESA radars yet ?

[Courtney Mil]

So the RAF version seems to be saying that they were chuffed to bits that the IAF brought their jets over to play, but the Typhoons weren't really trying and let them win.

Surely if it was described as a "realistic scenario", why wouldn't the Typhoons use their full (simulated) capability?

No, it doesn't even imply that the Typhoons weren't really trying, you inferred that incorrectly, or maybe wilfully. It is absolutely standard to agree weapons loads and training requirements before the exercise for all sorts of reasons.

One thing's for sure, we shan't be finding out what the training limitations, political restrains and security issues were for this exchange anytime soon. If you're not convinced, Google a few other excercises from the past 10 years or so (Red Flag, Green Flag and previous ones in this series) and you'll see what I mean.

And, no, I have no reason to be defensive of the RAF Typhoon guys. :ok:

[P6 Driver]

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[Bastardeux]

CM is right though, we have no idea what the ROE were or the limitations put on weapons use. Having said that, my contact with the Indian Air Force makes me 99% sure that they are being extremely economical with the truth!

I'll hold my tongue from here; but the idea that they've come over with an inferior aircraft, and a bunch of pilots, whose expertise have gained notoriety from their time at Valley, and obliterated us is laughable. The more I think about it, the more I cringe

[airsound]

Bastardeuxthe idea that they've come over with an inferior aircraft, and a bunch of pilots, whose expertise have gained notoriety from their time at Valley, and obliterated us is laughable. The more I think about it, the more I cringe
I've no reason to doubt what you say, Bastardeux, but could it be that the Indians operating WVR got a significant advantage from the Su30MKI thrust vectoring?

airsound

[Bastardeux]

Theoretically, yes, but you would have to put severe limitations on the ability of the Typhoon to do what it does best. Like I said, they're being extremely economical with the truth.

[Bevo]

Yes the IAF must be the greatest air force in the world based on their press releases.

Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against U.S F-15s

Held at the Gwalior Indian Air Force range from Feb. 15 to 27, 2004, Cope India 04 exercise gained the headlines not only because it marked the beginning of a new chapter in bilateral relations between India and US, but also because Indian pilots were able to win more than 90 percent of the mock air engagements conducted against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets from 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. The results of this joint training was surprising, somehow shocking........ BUT!!!!
Several limitations reduced the chances of victory of the Eagle drivers against the Indian fighters. First of all, the lack of the advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on their F-15s. Second, the air engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).

Furthermore, the Indians had sent their most experienced airmen to fight against the Americans whereas the latter belonged to a standard squadron (hence there was a mix of experienced and less experienced pilots).
LINK (http://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/)

[CoffmanStarter]

Here's what the Indian Press reported ...

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises (http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336?site=full)

[Heathrow Harry]

non event-

I'm pretty sure the IAF has some damn god pilots and the Flanker is a good fighter. The Indians also know they are much more likely than the RAF to have to fight at short notice against either Pakistan or China which probably keeps them pretty sharp

BUT - they want to keep making the trips to the USA/UK/Australia if only to test against other 4Gen fighters so their CO is going to claim "victory" as much as he can - if he reports "we were murdered" it's an end to exchange visits for sure

It's good for the RAF to test against the sort of 'planes Mr Puitin has and especially since some of the Indian training will be based on Russian doctrine

[Rosevidney1]

Delete North Korean Insert Indian Ministry of Truthful and Incorruptible Information

[JFZ90]

Maybe this is an elaborate ruse to finally get an AESA & other toys on Typhoon?

[Courtney Mil]

Air sound,

Thrust vectoring etc. it offers massive nose authority, but has a huge effect on pushing the jet forward. It is not the panacea for sustained manoeuvre. I have said this many times here, you can only get so much out of a jet within its physical limitations.

Here's a good read - bear with it until you get to the bit about trust vector. One of the best descriptions in one paragraph I've seen.

How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to-win-in-a-dogfight-stories-from-a-pilot-who-flew-1682723379)

Thanks to fonsini for his post:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/565833-mig-29-f-16-musings.html

[Rhino power]

Maybe this is an elaborate ruse to finally get an AESA & other toys on Typhoon?

A pretty pointless ruse, since Typhoon is already going to get an 'AESA & other toys' (Meteor/Brimstone/Stormshadow), development and integration work is already well under way... :ok:

-RP

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Rhino. It's all funded and happening.:ok:

[NutLoose]

Thanks Courtney, that was an excellent read.

[O-P]

CM,

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong...it won't be the first time.

TTBOMK, the partner nations have only, so far, funded the integration of CAPTOR E, not actually bought any. I think the integration cost was circa 1B (of those silly things the Greeks still use....just).

I understand that P3-5E cannot move ahead without AESA, and the signing of production contracts maybe just a formality...

OH WAIT, I've got it! Perhaps this time we're going to make sure it actually works before signing over a crap ton(ne) of cash!

[Courtney Mil]

Good point, well made, OP. To be more accurate on my previous statement, the funding is there, dotted line still need to scribbled on. And you are right, nothing happens in a consortium without tonnes of euromoney. Making sure it works BEFORE buying it would be an innovative concept.

[melmothtw]

AFAIK, the P3E upgrade (of which E-Scan and Brimstone are parts) has been committed to and funded by the UK only so far (all the nations having signed up for P2E).

BAE is to fly a test E-Scan radar on IPA5 before the end of the year.

On the subject of the Indian Sukhoi report, given that the IAF said something very similar after supposedly wiping the floor with USAF F-15s in 2003 (I think) - which later proved to be not quite the whole story - are they not in danger of finding themselves being 'uninvited' to such joint events in the future.

[Courtney Mil]

Thank you, Mel.

[Fonsini]

4.5 Gen fighters arguing about fighting at the merge is just sooo passe.

Don't you stick and rudder geriatrics know it's all about Gen 5s killing the opposition during flight briefing ?

Seriously, 3D thrust vectoring really doesn't matter unless you are very slow and trying to make all that fancy high alpha stuff work, after all - speed is life, right ? RAF Typhoon pilots have always had an unhealthy "thing" about the Su-30MKI, having previously stated that it's the one aircraft they (the Typhoon jockeys) can't live with at the merge. Was it Sun Tzu who said that the fight is won or lost before the battle ever begins ?

Strangely all this talk of 4.5s twirling around each other 500m apart and trying to make their silly little HMCS lock on to each other for a high angle off boresight kill is making me a Belieber about the whole F-35 argument. Who coulda thunk it ?

[MrCurious]

Hello All,

Long time lurker on the Mil forum - what fantastic stories about the RAF aircraft and the culture. Also followed folks like Courtney Mil to his brilliant blog (A big thank you Sir!)

So, why am I posting for the first time in so many years. As an Indian, to provide some perspective on why the story is being reported the way it is, but also to provide another POV about the topic itself, more in tune and tenor with a "professional" way to look at things.

So, a few points:

1. The IAF is a modern, professional force, but has a long way to go in terms of media management. Take a look at its official website, to see how out of sync it is with certain aspects of modernity. The "outrageous" claims are more a function of clumsy media interaction than any design.

2. As many have pointed out, there is a pattern to such "chest thumping", and pandering to a "domestic audience". Why doesn't the IAF learn and Indians "grow up"? These are cultural issues and take much longer time to resolve. Observers of English football and its media coverage might see a parallel:E

3. Back to specifics, WVR is an IAF specialty simply because our main threat was mostly WVR until a few years ago. We practice it rather a lot. Add the Su-30s party tricks - the TVC (Courtney's observations on the drawbacks are bang on), and the HMDS cued off-boresight Archer. Then add the extra pair of eyeballs in the back to NOT lose sight and therefore fight. Plus we had some of our TACDE grads (Fighter Weapons School equivalent) flying. 12-0 kill ratios be damned but the IAF probably got more than a few clean kills.:)

BVR though is a steep learning curve, we got AWACs just a few years back, and currently too few platforms to train and bridge the huge gap with RAF and USAF in a short time. Notice the reportage "paper over" those results accordingly;)

4. Whats really positive and gets lost in the shrillness, is that the IAF which was super sensitive about radar usage and "joint" working in previous exercises has been much more open on all these parameters in the current edition. The number of exercises with US and allies is only going up.

"Indradhanush" is Hindi for rainbow - many Indians would love to get all colors of perspective on how the IAF and RAF fared, not just the brown and white one.:ok:

[Finnpog]

Interesting & balanced last post.
At least the comments made in the press by the CO are not a form of 'softening up' prior to asking for a re-bid on the Fighter contract by Eurofighter.

If the Tiffie / Eufi is so poor, why would the IAF want to buy it?:sad:

[melmothtw]

Interesting & balanced last post.
At least the comments made in the press by the CO are not a form of 'softening up' prior to asking for a re-bid on the Fighter contract by Eurofighter.

If the Tiffie / Eufi is so poor, why would the IAF want to buy it?:sad:


They don't.

[Courtney Mil]

MrCurious,

A good post. Thank you for putting the whole thing in perspective. If you've seen the poorly updated UK MOD website, the IAF one doesn't look quite so bad!

Very interesting perspective there. Thanks again. :ok:

[a1bill]

It was the journalist making it up as he went. The GC isn't quoted as saying it. There are a few well known UK/USA journalists that do the same thing, It's not just an Indian fault.

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises (http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336)
According to Group Captain Srivastav, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."
Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".
"The hosts were very good. They were ready to extend exceptional support."
"It was all about learning from each others experiences and to fine tune our own procedures."

[melmothtw]

How do you come to that conclusion a1bill? The journalist says he was told the 12-0 'score' by the IAF detachment commander. The fact that he doesn't quote him directly doesn't tell me otherwise. The quotes you have provided don't disprove anything he said, they just provide some additional information and (maybe) context.

There are a few well known UK/USA journalists that do the same thing

Name names, or as John Major famously said; "Put up or shut up."

[Lordflasheart]

Great Stuff Guys ! You can't keep a good subject down. ...... LFH

[airsound]

Courtney - thanks very much for pointing me at Spanky Clifton’s excellent account. What a great read. And, as you suggest, a fascinating one-para demolition of the thrust vector concept!

I also enjoyed the idea of his being cleared to take off for his first MiG-29 solo by his 9-year-old daughter...

How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to-win-in-a-dogfight-stories-from-a-pilot-who-flew-1682723379)
for anyone who missed it first time round

Thanks also to Fonsini and Mr Curious for providing, for me at least, new considerations.

airsound

[a1bill]

@Mel, did you read the link to the article of Group Captain Srivastav? The claim of 12:0 in the opening sentence wasn't verified by a quote from Srivastav. In fact his quoted word says that Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".

[melmothtw]

I did read it, but you don't need to quote someone directly to report what they said - it's called 'reported speech'.

Had the journalist really made up the 12-0 score, as you claim, I rather think that the MoD would have just come out and said so, rather than it's more diplomatic 'made for a domestic audience' response.

[Courtney Mil]

Well said, Mel. And I think Mr Curious has explained the circumstances very well too.

[barnstormer1968]

Mr Curious has it spot on.
I have worked with a fair few Indians working in the UK, and day to day they are the same as anyone else. Many of them 'needed' to tell me their family was the richest in the area when we first met, and I often got to hear just how expensive any weddings were. Once I got past that approx twenty Indian families are ALL the single richest family, and all the weddings were very expensive its business as normal.

Once we get past cultural differences it's easy to see that some countries need to claim to be the best as a cultural thing and not as arrogance or big headed ness.
This exercise will have been good practice for all kinds of things, and I'm sure both sides gained experience and learned new tricks.

This almost reminds me of a parents evening at a primary school. After the event a whole bunch of parents are keen to tell others that their child is top of the class (often with 20 tops of class), whereas the children just carry on as normal and all play nicely. :)

[skippedonce]

Welcome MrCurious,
Although you're a self-confessed 'lurker' that was a wonderfully informative and balanced 1st post.:D
I had the pleasure of working with and being hosted by the IAF in 2013, so your perspective on a large, modern and professional force in a part of the world of continuing growing importance is welcome. I look forward to your increasing your score in the future.
S.O.

[MrCurious]

Thank you to all those who have been so generous with their feedback and sharing their own experiences.

I should quit while I am ahead, so would just like to say that any new info, even anecdotal (Rumor Network, right?;)) about the exercises from an RAF or UK media perspective would be great. Shall try and see through informal channels that folks back here know about it.

Of course, if there are any queries that I might attempt to answer, shoot and I'll emerge from my lurk:)

[TwoStep]

Apparently the UK protested in New Delhi and this was the result: Press Information Bureau (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=124737)

Participation of IAF in Indo-UK

Bilateral Air Exercise-Indradhanush IV – July 2015


1. The fourth edition of the Indo-UK bilateral air exercise named Indradhanush was held in the UK from 21-31 July 2015. The 190-strong contingent of the IAF left India on 15 July 2015 for the overseas deployment and returned on 04 August 2015.

2. The air elements that took part in the air exercise this time were the Su-30 MKI, IL-78 tankers, C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft from the IAF and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Voyager tanker, C-17 and C-130J from the RAF. In addition to the aircraft, the Indian Garud commandos participated alongside their British counterparts, the RAF Regiment of the Special Forces.

3. Such exercises are conducted under controlled conditions with mutually agreed weapons performance parameters, with the basic aim of learning from each other’s best practices. Additional advantages that accrue are greater understanding of each other’s general operational philosophy and exposure to a different operating environment. In combat exercises, definite objectives are laid down for each component participating. After the exercise, during debrief, a detailed analysis is carried out to assess the extent of achievement of laid down objectives. There are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability.

4. Mutual exchange of ideas as regards operational philosophy for tactical and strategic missions has provided invaluable learning for both sides. The exercise provided opportunity for the exchange of ideas relating to concept of operations in a dynamic warfare environment. The bonhomie amongst personnel on both sides has been exceptional and in the true spirit of a bilateral exercise. The aircrew of both the Air Forces have performed exceptionally well, demonstrating their high standards of training, operational preparedness, flexibility and adaptability. The RAF had been very forthcoming in meeting all operational, maintenance and administrative requirements of the IAF contingent. Needless to say, the learning value from this interaction has been immense. The IAF looks forward to continue the engagement with RAF in the future as well.

[melmothtw]

Apparently the UK protested in New Delhi and this was the result: Press Information Bureau (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=124737)

RAF Regiment...special forces...when did that happen?

That's a pretty anodyne (joint) communiqué that tells us nothing we don't already know. It does nothing to address the 12-0 claim and the IAF's lack of tact in reporting it, which I imagine was the whole point of issuing it in the first place.

[Courtney Mil]

To be honest, Mel, I wouldn't expect a public climb-down. It's done and expect the good Gp Capt has probably had tea and biscuits with, at least, his boss by now.

[Wokkafans]

Some more Indian press coverage of the exercise. This states that the 12:0 scoreline was "hyperbole" and that the set exercise criteria are critical factors in assessing any outcome.

Why ?IAF versus RAF? is a dogfight with shadows | The Indian Express (http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/why-iaf-vs-raf-is-a-dogfight-with-shadows/)

C/O RAF View https://twitter.com/RAFView/status/631072418577125377

[Lonewolf_50]

4. Whats really positive and gets lost in the shrillness, is that the IAF which was super sensitive about radar usage and "joint" working in previous exercises has been much more open on all these parameters in the current edition. The number of exercises with US and allies is only going up. This is good news, working together accrues many benefits. :ok:

[KenV]

This is good news, working together accrues many benefits.Agreed. And this seems to be Russia's biggest failing. They have few (if any) real friends, much less allies, with whom they can work together militarily. Loners are sad. Armed to the teeth loners are dangerous.

[henra]

If the Tiffie / Eufi is so poor, why would the IAF want to buy it?:sad:



Besides the fact that they probably won't such a result probably tells more about the training of the pilots for that specific Scenario and/or RoE than the airframe itself. You simply don't get 12-0 on merit of a particular airfame in WVR - not even in a Mig21 against an F-15...

[glad rag]

To be honest (overall and ignoring that scoreline "reporting") sitting on the fence here I'd say the RAF has gained exactly the experience it needed out of these mock engagements.
:ok: