Police aviation news, another 902 bashing!

[902driver]

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/232PANAugust2015.pdf


LONDON: A fresh plea was made last month for a second emergency helicopter in London, after the capital’s only air ambulance was unable to fly on the 10th anniversary of the 7/7 bombings.
The charity behind the service said the helicopter required unscheduled maintenance on the day — the 50th day this year it has not been available.

During the July 7 attacks in 2005, the same Lon- don Air Ambulance flew 18 sorties. By chance, about 30 doctors and paramedics were visiting the helipad at the Royal London hospital that day, and the helicopter was able to fly them to the bomb sites and to take medicines and equipment between hospitals.
Dr Gareth Davies, medical director of London’s Air Ambulance, said: “The helicopter absolutely came into its own on the day of the 7/7 bombings. We were able to respond in a way we could never have imagined.”
London’s Air Ambulance estimates it could reach an extra 400 patients a year within the M25 with a second helicopter. Its appeal, Your London, Your Helicopter, needs £2.1M to reach its £4.4M target.

Ed: London has a very good response car facility which has taken the brunt of the call outs during the many absences of the MD900 G-EHMS over the years but for the Air Ambulance charity to actually mention the 50-day downtime this year suggests that they are getting ra- ther short tempered with the reliability of their Explorer. Having the aircraft missing for a 30 day annual maintenance is one thing but losing a third of the first 188 days of this year is plain unsustainable!
No mention has been made of the type of helicopter the operators plan to obtain to supple- ment the Explorer but it seems likely that there will be a change.

[jayteeto]

Whilst PAN has a history of knocking the 902, I would say the truth hurts?
This has been done to death on prune, another 135 vs 902 vs 429 thread would be just......... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
We all know how good an airframe it is, but without a coordinated support network it is useless. That goes for any aircraft.
If these figures are correct then it COULD be shocking performance. However you need to look at why it was off each time. Sometimes you just have a run of minor "unlucky" snags that could happen to anyone.

Unfortunately that anyone seems to be repeated.... A lot

[AnFI]

902 looks good to me. small disk, no t/r hazzard, nice utility volume

besides all of those machines have severe problems carrying spare engines around with themselves almost pointlessly when live-saving is compromised so much.

[handysnaks]

Anfi, I think you need a therapist mate!

[jayteeto]

Twin vs single again? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[[email protected]]

It is the only mantra AnFI has!

[krypton_john]

I think he's trolling and you guys all just took the bait!

[vfr440]

Anfi, spot on comment. I absolutely agree.
It's a capable machine though the HEMS Operation in London is not helped by


Not being able to keep the machine on the hospital roof at night
The operation is some 100+ miles from the Part 145 AMO

As I see it though, it is the lack of OEM support that is primarily the fault here. The problem in my eyes is that MDHI have a difficult conundrum to resolve. They have sold what, 200 aircraft, but they HAVE to support them. This is where it gets difficult. Ms Tilton probably thought that $50M injection was adequate for manufacturing helicopters; probably it was, The trouble is that one has to invest for supporting them and then it is the numbers game for the tooling-up for parts, which ones, minimum production runs and all the other problematic issues that occur. (Those EFIS glass-screens are eye-wateringly expensive, for all concerned, on an exchange basis). Rock and a hard place, which is a pity since I think the machine is more than capable of doing exactly what it says on the tin, but support is lacking.


I have no idea what Bell's inventory investment might be, but significant that's for sure. Yes of course they have many more aircraft to support, but they do, which is why they consistently come top of the support polls. Amortization of the investment can be justified, however, where with MDHI it would be much less easy to do so. $50M doesn't go very far........


I've met Gareth Davies, and I understand he is a leader-of-consequence in life-saving trauma, but the vehicle he needs for his work doesn't work when he needs it to. So I too, wonder at what alternative London HEMS may choose; I'm not sure a mixed fleet would be the best idea, but what would I know as just a lowly LAE? :O


And yes, you nailed it in one - VFR

[Ian Corrigible]

They have sold what, 200 aircraft
133 Explorers delivered since 1994, compared to 230+ Bell 429s since 2009 (excl. prototypes). Unfortunately this results in a vicious circle: the OEM isn't willing to invest in the spares inventory for a small, static fleet, which in turn kills any prospect of additional sales.

I/C

[helihub]

I/C - the 429 would be an odd choice, given the weight issues. eg. Wiltshire cannot do back-to-back calls without refuelling - that's some limitation

I/C - your MD902 production figures are close, but still optimistic - I can't make it any higher than 122, and I'll provide details of my calc if you wish.

vfr440 - London told me they are looking at a second MD902. They should pick one up very cheap given the plentiful availability.

Some more details on London's "50 days" which is not clear from the PAN report is this:-

25 days for annual maintenance
18 days to sort some nose damage sustained on the ground, a one-off situation
7 days cumulative early evening routine maintenance on operational days

[Ian Corrigible]

HeliHub,

You're right on the Explorer production total. My initial 133 count was for S/Ns 900-00008 through 140 (S/Ns 001 & 002 being prototypes, and S/N numbers 003 through 007 never being allocated). However on review S/N numbers 009 and 047-051 were also never being allocated, and S/Ns 8, 95, 110 and 117 were retained as company demonstrators, with 138 also currently remaining at Mesa.

Re: the 429, I was simply highlighting the difference in production rates between the two types, nothing more.

I/C

[The Sultan]

Bell was in position to buy the MD commercial products, but Airbus in collusion with low IQ MD operators successfully blocked it. So MD operators got what they deserved.

As to the 429, operate it at 7500 Lb like many in the world do and it puts Airbus products to shame.

The Sultan

[Geoffersincornwall]

At the time I signed off on the order for London's 902 we were desperate for a machine with real performance as the dear old Dauphin N was well past it. The 902 was the best package available at the time with only the BK117 C2 in the frame there was little choice (circa 1999)

The 902's future was unknown at that point but if it had been supported well I have no doubt that it would have been a great success. As it is I believe it still has potential and for inner city ops it's a hard package to beat.

There was at one point the possibility of teaming up with the London Fire Brigade with a pair of 117s but they couldn't find any money to bring to the deal so that went by the board.

If my dreamworld Bell would take on the 902 and make it work with a redesigned 'B' model - a '903'. I know it will never happen.

G. :{

[helihub]

I/C - right on. Actually it was 48-51 which were not allocated and you missed 42 which went on demo to the Dutch Police and remains locked in their hangar to this day...

[Flying Bull]

Well,

they should consider a BK117 - quite a lot of EMS-Services are changing from BK117 to H145 (EC145T2) - so prices for used HEMS-BK should drop - and a BK117 is still a good helicopter :-)

[Geoffersincornwall]

The BK117 would be a step backwards performance-wise and tail rotor-wise. Working Cat A from a city rooftop needs the best you can get. Maybe the 145 is 'it' but I can't say without taking a close look at the Flight Manual.

G.

[Flying Bull]

@Geoffersincornwall

if you want to get rid of the tailrotorrisks and want power, the H145 should be the choice.
Power to spare.
Havent flown one yet, but seeing the big smiling faces of everybody, having the chance, tells the story.
We had a demonstrator here - and the training department says, that single engine manovers doesn´t really need training with the H145 - it will just continue with one engine - and be sure - they tested it with AUM!

[Geoffersincornwall]

FLYING BULL - Sounds good - if it's OK for our future king then I guess it will be fine. The key thing for London HEMS is that they like to operate two pilot and with three in the back (one is always a trainee).

G. :ok:

[timprice]

The 902 has done a fantastic job, there is no such thing as a perfect helicopter.
With the right support it could be a winner, lack of tail rotor and the tight spots it can land in London makes a safe machine for everyone.
I am fed up with the idiots that say if you can fly a R22 you can fly anything it's not true and the same goes for the 902, it has some great things going for it.
If you havent flown one, don't knock it.:ugh:

[Hedski]

First twin I ever flew was G-EHMS. Loved it.

The 902 can be improved upon, MD are addressing this. However they are extracting the urine with their prices, Lynn Tilton losing the run of herself maybe.

The new glass cockpit and weight increase are needed ASAP, particularly in London's case where they operate heavy all the time. Both the current and backup airframes need PW207 power also, but forget doing CAT transfers, it won't have the legs for proper IFR. Local to London is fine.

I agree totally with Tim, was told many many years ago about the R22 fly anything myth. What a load of rubbish. I've seen many many supposedly fantastic instructor types, particularly R22 ones who are nothing short of inept at flying turbines, twins, heavies, IFR, night, external loads. You name it.

As for the 902 being best option, if LAA chose something like a 145T2 or 365N3 (the option was there when the 902 was selected and not chosen........ Why?) then maintenance could or would be scheduled in such a manner not requiring a second airframe. More capital outlay than a second hand 902 but maybe a saving in the long run.......

Just my two cents....

[Geoffersincornwall]

Hedski

One problem with the 365 range is its size. The downwash created by an even heavier 365 would not be acceptable. At the time we were selecting a replacement we were getting an average of 2 insurance claims per month from property damage claimants and the management were concerned about the safety implications. The old helipad was located next to Whitechapel High Street and even though we were 8 floors up it wasn't difficult to trash the market stalls down at street level if the wind was in the wrong direction.

We needed the biggest cabin with the smallest footprint and the 902 was (still is!) the best contender although the latest (Prince Wiliiam's) 145 looks like it may be in the frame although the downwash may be an issue once again.

Johni

In my current post I see many pilots from a variety of backgrounds and I want to add my observations to yours.

There are many good 'self-selected', self-improved, commercially trained pilots and not all military trained pilots are as good as they may imagine. That said it is important to realise that military pilots receive MORE training than their commercial colleagues, much more. This hands them an in-built advantage and so it is easier for recruiters to select ex-mil over commercial.

The current (it's been like this for 40+years) commercial training system has, in my opinion, nothing like the rigour of a typical military system. It's an imperfect world out there and so any attempt to pigeon hole pilots is problematic. Even my generalised statements require qualification but that's for another thread.

G

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Geoffrers I think you explained the MIL vs CIVVY argument very. I

I would add that all military pilots are subject to aircrew selection procedures, and in UK, during training, are effectively 5 hours from the chop throughout their training (review).

The selection and the ease at which a military pilot can get chop means the end product, those that survive, have proven ability and skills.

In civilian life the only obstacle to qualifications is either you are a total spastic or run out of money. The two systems are poles apart.

I hate civvies, I could not believe it when I found out my parents were civvies!

[Geoffersincornwall]

You should be aware that whereas money (or lies) will find a way through almost any licensing system it is also true to say that there are parts of the world where access to military aviation is down to family connections and/or who you know.

It doesn't matter how much training some people have it will not alter their personality.

G.

[nowherespecial]

Geoffers,

Oohh that sounds juicy. Where does this nepotism exist? Surely not in the spotless HM Forces?:oh:

[Geoffersincornwall]

Johni

Sounds like you have a personal tale to tell. What I said goes for all and I daresay you can find those that would want to include me in that.

If the QA process was a little less dysfunctional then those who can't teach would be given a little help - up the ladder or out the door :E

Nowhere man - I certainly wouldn't want to fight you over that assertion but that's enough self-incrimination for one day. Suffice it to say that whilst many a father's son got to the upper echelons in my day it was rarely a case that it wasn't earned. A little more meritocracy may have crept into the UK system since the days when we had more ships and aircraft than we have personnel today.

G.

[Hedski]

I have seen both sides of the argument johni.

I'm a self improver, not ex mil. But I've seen too many prima donnas on the civ "don't you know I'm an instructor" side, far too many.

And some fly elsewhere now, including heavies but usually success comes after being brought back down to earth first.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Instructing is easy if you follow the Captain Flasheart mantra:

"Treat yer kite like yer woman, get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back...Woof!"

Job done!

[Lonewolf_50]

Seems the discussion on the 902 has turned into a different thread.

Is the 902 point closed out, or is there further insight to be gained?

[Hedski]

Ok, back on thread.

2 MD902's, one daily use with a spare to cover the large number of days unavailability of airframe 1, or get a 135/145 which seem to be much less labour intensive maintenance wise and cheaper to run with better performance at MAUW thereby negating the 2nd airframe requirement. How does that sound?

902 seems to be down a lot of days for maintenance and at MAUW as London seem to operate does appear to be power limited.

[Geoffersincornwall]

135 Too small

145 - maybe

G.

[Lonewolf_50]

@Hedski et al: sorry to be a grumpus, but we've had a number of "civ versus mil" threads where various axes are ground, which I felt was taking away from points like yours on the 902 and getting the mission done. :ok:

[mixing lever]

HeliHub.... 42 is back at the factory.

[Notar fan]

Its belies belief that the intelligent members continue to read the utter tripe reported in PAN. This latest article reported in this online rag is the next best thing to libeling. It is full of incorrect data, received from a washed up inside source, that he hopes will fool the reader.

I would hope that the trustees at LAA will not let it go this time.

While MDHI has it issues, PANs constant picking away at these issues is completely politically motived.

Prepare for a force retraction this time.

[Flyting]

Heli Austria operates a fleet of 5 902's for HEMS just fine.
Sure, now and again one needs a bit of work done, but which machine doesn't!

I have seen in the past, that generally the machines that are always needing repairs.........are the ones with a bad maintenance team behind them. (I am not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea about the UK ops)

The 902 is a great HEMS machine... Small, agile, NOTAR, pilot friendly design, and space for the Dr's in the back...

[jayteeto]

Nobody likes to see lies or smoking mirrors, I'm sure an apology will happen if the facts are incorrect.
Out of interest, which bit is wrong? The downtime stats or the reasons why? Or both?

[winchman]

I've flown 902's for the past 10 years in both HEMS and Police units and it's great. Hardly ever had any problems and regularly see 98/99% monthly avalibility. I've never noticed a shortage of spares leading to any prolonged AOG.

Very embarrassing reading PAN, no idea of the authors background but obviously he has had a run in with MD in the past.

[Ian Corrigible]

Before pitchforks are sharpened and torches lit, the original article was actually sourced from the London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/fresh-plea-for-2nd-london-air-ambulance-as-helicopter-fails-to-fly-on-50th-day-this-year-10374244.html). He failed to mention it in his previous posts, but HeliHub did a good write-up (http://helihub.com/2015/07/15/press-misrepresents-london-air-ambulance-md-explorer-down-time/) on the actual situation, including feedback from the LAA itself.

Personally I enjoy reading PAN, esp. the occasional humorous article. Their write up of the Heli-Expo OEM presentations is also usually more honest and accurate than that of other publications averse to putting ad revenues at risk.

I/C

[Salusa]

The BK117 would be a step backwards performance-wise and tail rotor-wise. Working Cat A from a city rooftop needs the best you can get. Maybe the 145 is 'it' but I can't say without taking a close look at the Flight Manual.

G.

Performance wise BK117 with upgraded -850 engines, (EASA approved STC) has excellent Cat A performance. I'm surprised the option has not taken off more in the northern hemisphere...?

[SARWannabe]

including feedback from the LAA itself

Or the feedback they want you to hear... Don't forget that they could have chosen to hire in a 902 for their maintenance downtime as they would in the past, but it makes a stronger political argument for a second aircraft if they are 'down' instead.

[MightyGem]

I've flown 902's for the past 10 years in both HEMS and Police units and it's great. Hardly ever had any problems and regularly see 98/99% monthly avalibility. I've never noticed a shortage of spares leading to any prolonged AOG.

Hmm...really?

[Coconutty]

winchman :

I know of at least one Police Air Unit in the UK that changed from a 902 to a 135
within the last 10 years, primarily because of the unavailablity of spare parts ( notably Flex Beams )
and lack of confidence that the Company would turn those problems around within a timeframe
that was acceptable - weighed against the risk of the aircraft being grounded
( like others had been ) for extended periods of time.

I think the Flex Beam issue, and maybe others, has now beeen addressed, but if you "didn't notice" those issues,
then you weren't keeping up to date with what was happening with the worldwide fleet !


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Well I guess as this thread was 'named' after me I guess I should undertake at least one post in it before it fizzles and disappears.

It looks as if my text in the last issue was based on repeating 'iffy' information. Hands up on that and of course that 'error' will be covered in my report on the LAA purchase next month [after I have secured my severely dropped jaw].

But my reason for being here is to make mention of the other recent air ambulance purchase by very long term Explorer operator and champion [despite all] Yorkshire Air Ambulance.

Unable to sustain the MD Explorer any more - for every single reason given by the denigrators above - they have bought into the Airbus Helicopters H145 after at least two years research in which the recent front runners were only really the Bell 429 and the H145.

Would they have operated a new Explorer if they had been given the opportunity - probably. But that reaction is based on the perfect product that serves its purpose to be available on a daily basis and not a nightmare that often resulted in neither aircraft being available all too often.

It will be a more than a couple of years before they can see for sure that the H145 does what it says on the label on a daily basis but in truth MD do not even offer them the option of a new aircraft. All these 'new' Explorer's are simply more recycling.

In a year or so there may well be ten or so 'new' 902s for the air ambulance community to buy into as Yorkshire and NPAS get out of this marque.

[SilsoeSid]

Ah yes, the Yorkshire AA, new aircraft with a little help from the Govt.
Worthy of a different thread!

Government pledges £1 million towards new Yorkshire Air Ambulance helicopter (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus) (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/13627329.Government_pledges___1_million_towards_new_Yorkshir e_Air_Ambulance_helicopter/?ref=rss)

[Notar fan]

There you go Mr. PANews. A quick apology for your "iffy" information and off you go again with MD902 bashing. This time up north to your other regular contributors at YAA. They are always good for a few quotable lines that you can mold into your bash 902 campaign to fill another half page of your online rag.

There are parts issues with every manufacturer. MDHI is probably the biggest offender, but the availability figures that winchman quoted earlier in this thread are realistic, and you refuse to acknowledge them, or the fact that if these availabilty rates were not being achieved, someone would be hurting financially.

I would have to agree with you in that the 902s may soon be extinct, and when they are, what product will you bash then. I bet Bell or Augusta. It certainly won't be your friends at Airbus.;)

[Helinut]

In the argument that occasionally occurs on this thread about the 902 v something else, I think it might be worth considering that the needs of the LAA are different from other county-covering (some multiple county) HEMS operations. Several characteristics of the 902 are particualrly useful for London.

[PANews]

Thank for that Notar Fan:cool:

[902driver]

Well, now that it's official......

Here is G-LNDN

MD 900 Explorer MSN 900-00125 (http://www.aeroboek.nl/900/00125.HTM)

The final push for funding is in progress so that the airframe can be painted and prepared for operation.

The plan is to rotate LNDN & EHMS week by week, thus allowing LAA to have an aircraft available at all times.

[MightyGem]

MD902 bashing
That's because in my(and others) experience, they deserve it. As an ex pilot of a Police EC135, if I had had a pound for every hour of downtime due to unscheduled maintenance of our neighbouring 902, I'd be a rich man.