EK parking habits

[physicus]

Are there any EK drivers here that could comment on EKs habit to park A380 and 777 fleet (don't know about other types, those are the only ones I've seen) with what looks to be slats out and flaps in 2 position?

[vapilot2004]

The reason could be heat related.

[Monarch Man]

It's an Airbus issue, from memory (distant 320-321-330 inspired nightmares) over 30-35C. It's not done on the 777 as it's not an issue on a better built aircraft :E

[Oldaircrew]

It is not a temp limit for the 380. I believe it is done for commonality with the 330/340 fleet although the FCOM allows flap 1 for transits(which most of our flights seem to be).

[physicus]

I'm pretty sure I saw it on a few of the 777's as well. What's the technical argument for that anyway? Less wear and tear on the motors, flap rails, fairings etc?

Reason I ask is several years ago I flew with an EK 777 to Nice and noticed one of the inboard flaps having a huge dent in it, underside would have been perforated to bend the (to me visible) top side outwards that much. I told the crew which caused a little bit of eyebrow lifting on the part of the (relief/training) captain that came to take a look. It would seem that the habit of leaving flaps extended will make ground handling prone to running into flaps with catering trucks.

[springbok449]

EK 777 (probably like all 777s) always parked flaps up unless there's a tech problem or landing was on a contaminated RWY.

[woodja51]

Yes Airbus (330) docs say above 35 c in transit leave flaps at 1 for reduced overheat/ LE warnings.

So maybe a ccq issue with 380.

That said , it used to be the signal for hijack to leave flaps out after landing however that is probably redundant since 9/11. But certainly if you did it a few years ago in the U.S. ATC might ask about "ops normal".

And yes, as previous poster mentioned, contaminated runway landing maybe leave them out.

A 380 question - There was a recent case where a crew activated / left activated a crew pull - up smoke and fumes checklist ( apparently it is like the 777 where you can now request non-system detected checklists).

Great idea , but in this case the outbound crew perhaps didn't reset / deactivate it and it lead to the checklist popping up ( no CRC or MW as the system had not detected anything) .

They jettisoned fuel and landed in Hamburg where the engineers pressed the reset for them. Somewhat embarrassing!

Question for any 380 guys is: Is this a known gotcha,or would adherence to some SOP catch it?

[MCDU2]

PRO-NOR-SOP-21.....After landing on ground in hot weather to avoid an AIR L(R) WING LEAK warning leave the flaps at conf 1 if OAT is above 30 degrees. Thats on the 330 but I remember it was the same for the 320/1 that I flew.

[El Peligroso]

A380 FCOM / PROCEDURES / SOP / AFTER LANDING

.
.
.
FLAPS ............................................................ ....................RETRACT
Retract flaps, unless ice accretion is suspected.
• During transit, if OAT is above 30 °C, the flight crew can keep the
FLAPS lever to 1, to avoid ‘AIR L(R) INR WING LEAK’ or ‘AIR L(R) OUTR WING LEAK’ alerts.
.
.
.//

[physicus]

thanks guys!

[Wizofoz]

And with the 777, while we normally select flaps up, the flaperons will droop when the hydraulics have been depressurized for a while, so that may be what you've seen on a triple.

[DutchOne]

Flying for an airline across the pond from EK with similar weather conditions, I know that the temp issue is mainly for the 320 family. We also did it on the 330/340 after they removed it from the SOPs. However recently they generalised this habit for all airbus fleets. Now it is back on the 330/340 and also written in the A380 SOPs (as an option). That can be te reason why you saw it on the 777 as well.

I have never had the ECAM message on the 330 or 380.

[Uplinker]

We have recently been told that some fuellers are refusing to refuel an A/C with flaps/slats out.

Our company has now said to taxy in at Conf 0. Then, after fuelling, if the temperature is above 30, we can then run to Conf 1 using the electric pump(s). Of course that means one of us outside to check all is clear, and yet more for us to do on a busy turnaround.

Since the sensor is not triggered until 124 degrees, I can't see how an air temperature above 30 is going to get anywhere near this. I wonder if the actual cause might be strong sunlight coupled with above 30 degree air temperature which could conceivably get the slat surface metal temperature up to 124?

I have never had the situation in 320/321 or 330. Has anybody, and if so, was it in strong sunlight or at night time?

[FlightDetent]

Yes in Egypt, A321, MSN late 900s. Later discussed with MX because we thought it unusual, had forgotten to leave 1+F repeatedly before and nothing ever happened.

I seem to recall their answer was that you will get the undesired warning at OAT 34 degrees, and sure we had 35.

The experience with refuellers is quite varied, now and then I found one who just would not refuel only to have no problems whatsoever next week.

It is interesting to compare the procedures for established A320 operators in warmer home bases, say MAD, FCO, ATH, by the looks they have differing strategies. Anyone from AirArabia ops?

respectfully,
FD.

[Uplinker]

Hi FD. So just to be clear; did you get the duct overheat warning at night, i.e no sunlight on the wing?

.

[RVF750]

Ah, thanks for info. Noticed TK doing this with their 320 today in ESB and wondered why.

[safelife]

Wouldn't be slats out only be enough to prevent the warning?
(You could retract to zero after landing, then use the blue pump on stand, and select flap 1.)
I tried 1+F once in Eygpt and the fueller said he wouldn't fuel us.

[Uplinker]

Yes, that does work, and I have done it, but you risk getting a slat/flap caution that may not clear on engine start, (although it did clear when I tried it), so some Captains are not very keen.

As far as I'm concerned, our bosses should simply tell these jumped up fuelers to just get on with it, keep a good look out and not drive into our planes. Who do the fuelers think they are; overriding what we and Airbus say?

[Uplinker]

Sharm El Sheik last night: the air temperature was 37 degrees !

Retracted the flaps completely so the precious darling fuelers didn't get upset, and despite the +37 degree air temperature, we didn't get a wing air leak caution.

I am becoming more certain that it is actually strong sunlight on the slats (with a high ambient temperature) that is the cause of the false overheat, so at night it probably won't occur.

[physicus]

Someone mentioned 124C as a skin temperature limit, that would be readily achieved in plain sunlight and already elevated ambient temperature on metal skin at high incidence angle to the sun. Given slats are curved, and heat mass relatively low (so heating up takes less overall energy), some part of the surface is likely to be at maximum heat transfer angle...

Just thinking out loud. Obviously not a qualified statement with no engineering background...

[FlightDetent]

We had sunlight on the affected side, local time about 9 am. I do not believe the skin temperature does come into play however.

My understanding is that the heat generated by the running pack would bring the bleed leak sensing loop above the trigger temperature, unless sufficient outside air cooling is made available by means of keeping the slats open.

Also very vaguely the engineers explanation was that the issue would appear with OAT > 34/35 on older, non-modified airframes. Which were the case.

Wouldn't be slats out only be enough to prevent the warning? I asked the same, picking the exact word from FCOM "slats". With a piece of paper and DSC F/CTL & HYD it is possible to draw a little risk analysis scenario. And I did not like the results. After a simple failure (procedural, human, technical) one could easily get uncommanded/unintended flap 1 deployment.

In general, any disagreement between cockpit switch and the actual position of a moving surface should be avoided unless the A/C is depowered and locking pins are in place.

Yours,
FD.