EK or SV

[Flyboy_SG]

Hello everyone,

Here I'm.... Finally filtered down to EK or SV for a Widebody FO job. Eliminated the other one due to various reasons. As I am totally unhappy with my present job(feeling like a sleep deprived town bus driver earning peanuts as salary).Inspite of the fact that I just got the narrow body command.(same old early morning 4 sector departure from left seat, non existent roster, 28 days PL, heavy taxation, quality of life etc, to name a few)

Please help me decide between the two. With so many posts written against EK, I'm more inclined towards SV. Yet to get a call from EKs neighbour.


Appreciate experts opinion. And yeah I'm ready to take the bullets ( from those who wants to shoot me down) :E as well, go on.


:ok:


FB

[polax52]

SV- the best thing to do is keep your current command until you have 2000 hours PIC A320 then go to SV.

If you go to SV as an F/O then expect a long period in the right seat. If the seat doesn't matter to you then I would recommend SV.

[alloha]

i totally agree with polax. Get to 2.000H and then come for SV as a skipper.

Pros and cons.

1)Salary. SV by far the best salary in the region. And cost of living in JED much lower than DXB. After the first 3 years of your contract you ll see the difference in your savings

2) even SV is a huge company u will not feel as a number. The company is being running by locals. If you get used to them and realise their culture and their habits then you ll be a happy customer. On the other hand if you dont do that then you got yourself into trouble

3) very good coverage package for schools (even abroad) health issues etc

Cons

1) lifestyle.Zero absolute nothing . If u have a family ,it might be hard for them to leave 30 days/month in a compound with limited things to do.

2) Training.its a long process. Things are a bit relaxed in the last 5-6 months but still lots of exams in each part of the training

3) as a captain on the 320 u will fly a lot. And most of the times u will be on a 3-4 day string away from JED with lay overs in RUH or elsewhere in the Kingdom.only 4-5 lay overs away from the Kingdom.

[Flyboy_SG]

Excellent insights polax and aloha :D I'll be happy to get to right seat to fly wide bodies. Agreed that the command is a big thing. But I'm making this Change for a relaxed life. I can't do 6 more years of narrow body flying. I would rather wait a few more years for Widebody command as I only have 3200hrs on narrow body jet.

[SOPS]

If you want a relaxed life, EK, flying 96 hours a month, long haul, back of the clock, is not the place to go!

[Flyboy_SG]

Thanks sops, I'll choose Widebody SV. Can't wait to join.

[mutt]

Change for a relaxed life Did you happen to ask how many hours were SV 777 guys flying? You might be surprised to find that its the same as EK, but they are doing it by choice and getting paid for it.

In EK you have a career path, it might take you 10 years to become a 777/330 Captain, but the opportunity is there. In SV you might get the opportunity to become a Captain on the 320 in about 10 years, or you might get fired if they have enough locals to take your FO position.

[polax52]

Let me just agree with what Mutt said; don't come to SV with your eyes closed and then complain (please!).

If you enter as an F/O you'll be bottom of the F/O seniority list, below even the 20 year old cadets. There are currently 700 Saudi's ready for upgrade. They currently upgrade at a rate of about 60 per year. If you enter the company as an F/O then that is what you are; potentially permanently.

Regarding hours on an aircraft; SV Pilots are required to DH between major Saudi Airports generally in Economy, normally around 20 hours per month. This means hours spent on board an aircraft is, more often than not, over 100.

Don't forget that this is not a commuting contract, you will live in Jeddah. Good for saving money but there really is no life. Movie Theaters not allowed for example.

[alloha]

Flyboy , you will not wait for some years on the right seat but for at least 9-11. And your upgrade will be on the A320 or its equivalent at that time. Seniority in SV works the same way as major carriers.First all the way up as a FO then upgrade on the first type . One good thing (or bad it depends) on the T7 in SV is that you will fly mixed flights.short hauls long hauls and ultra long hauls.

[Flyboy_SG]

Yes, I am aware of these facts aloha. In that case I'll go where I get a faster upgrade after completing the SV contract. It's good to make money and 3 years is not a long time to gain some experience in T7 and move to a major like QR or EY for upgrade. Based in the circumstances and market at that time.

[bigmountain]

Fly Boy
Im sure you probably considered Qatar Etihad and EK . You did not mention how you arrived at EK and SV. Reason they are like Chalk and Cheese

EK is a totally Expat oriented organization and SV is basically the opposite

e.g EK has No restrictions on Staff and Family to travel in and out of the country
SV a lot of restrictions and permits before family can travel. Crews work around by traveling on the the GD

EK No restrictions on living in a compound .While SV Not allowed to drive . Outside compound you Females need to be accompanied by a male

EK - based in Dubai is the most relaxed and open city in the Gulf . Lots of entertainment ( can be expensive ) schools and multicultural environment . Recently announced that Dubai topped London as the most popular destination for US professional looking for employment

EK -Living in Dubai is expensive yet it is much for friendly to the expat life stye
SV - Yes you will probably save more . But you mentioned that would allow you to move later to one other airlines. like Etihad . and Qatar . Why not do it now and get into the Seniority system

I would suggest Etihad and Qatar over SV. purely on Life style and chances for Upgrade

If you are looking for a more stable and organized ( some may even say rigid ) work place then EK is better . It offers a multi racial bunch of people . Shiny aircraft and destinations you couldn't even find on the map .

Training and Safety standards are generally good . Once on line good bunch of fellas to fly with . Varied flying across the six continents and Freighter Flying if you are on the B777

Some of the benefits of working with EK
Dubai - International City of Middle East - Great Connections to across the Globe
Company Accommodation / or Allowance - Utilities free
School Allowance for 3 kids ( usually covers 80%)
Transport to the Flt OPs and Back
Loss of Licence 3 x your Basic Salary and Loss of Life insurance 4 x basic
6 weeks Annual leave . Min of 30 days in a year ( usually can break it up to 2 weeks at a time )
Interest free loan for a Car - One time only
Free Uniform including Shoes Suitcase
Free Laundry for your uniform
Free Ticket for you and you family once a year to your home destination
Rebated travel -unlimited for family . 2 tickets for parents and In laws and Brother and sister . 15 Special tickets for other
Medical coverage for Self and rebated subscription for Family
Provident fund ( off shore ) contribution for 5 % self 10% company going upto 15%
Upgrade to left seat currently around 5 years
Rotating bid Seniority system when Roster bidding
If you stick around for 20 years you get a Omega watch Constellation
Tax Free salary
Other perks
Profit Share - Dependent on EK profitability target being met

Not company related

APC membership - Voluntary Social club allows you access for Self and Family to major beach clubs and Hotel gym for a fraction of the cost
Discounts at most retail outlets

Negative

Work Hard Especially if you are on the A330 . Due to regional flights and a lot of sectors to get to 90 hours . Minimum days off
B777 better with a large network of flights and 10-12 days off
A380 Largely intercontinental flying ULR across US Australia Flights to European Capitals and some regional flying to Saudia Arabia Kuwait and Bombay
Rostering is based on a sadistically driven mindset ,so as not to allow more than 5 days off in a row ( sore point for some pilots who need to commute).
Productivity ( over time ) is payed after 88 hours .
Morale is low amongst the earlier joiner


I do hope that I have given a better picture for you to make and informed decision. I'm sure there will be more to follow

BM:ok:

[BigGeordie]

First time I've heard rostering at EK described as sadistic but actually that sums it up perfectly. The rest of the post is pretty spot on as well.:D

[kennedy]

It's shows how far EK has fallen in everyone's opinion if we are being compared with SV!!!

[Slaveaway]

I submitted my App in today. Before anyone says anything, I understand the current condition of Emirates, and I've done hours of research on the work conditions. U.S. Regionals are no better, but at this rate I'll be able to save money. I'm a single 22 male.

I have an ATPL with a type rating in the 170/190 , 2300TT 1100 Multi. 700 Turbine Pilot in command and 300 in a E175.

Are these qualifications at this point competitive? And what equipment can I be expected to get hired in?

Health is good bmi is 25

[polax52]

Wow Kennedy- I think you're Naive....the days when Emirates and Cathay are the best 2 expat jobs in the world are long gone. Even Air China Cargo have gone to a Flat $23,000 per month Salary with Overtime kicking in at 80 hours and plenty of opportunity to return home each month. Not to mention that every single flight is double crewed so not more than 4 hours in the seat at a time, ever..

If you chose to work for a British Management these days you'll always get a bad deal, it's an overhang of the bonus culture.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Slaveaway.....

I personally don't think you've done enough research but all the best to you anyways.

I'd ask this of you; just come back to this forum, this particular thread (which will still be going strong I'm sure) and give us your thoughts then... Don't be surprised if there are a few " we tried to tell you"

You sincerely don't have any Idea what you're getting into.... None of us here could have even imagined how poor the conditions, rosters and general treatment of pilots could get..... But they have!

Through a colleague I've heard that a Deputy Chief advises that 95 hours per month WILL BE THE NEW NORM! Why? Not enough pilots. Why? Most have taken heed of these discussions.

Hope to hear from you here on this thread 6-9 months after starting at EK.

Kap

[V1cutz]

Slaveaway - So after all your extensive research about this place where the negatives far outweigh the positives, you still decide to apply? You will fit right in here mate. Most Americans have left or are trying to leave desperately in numbers, that should say something. Even know 1 or 2 that have taken jobs in the regional's just to leave this place. At 22, the shiny big jet syndrome must be strong. Chill out, relax, put your time in, as most have and wait for one of the top 3 to call. Your login name surely fits though.

[SOPS]

I really wonder sometimes.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Instant Hooligan]

Don't you have to be 23 for a US atpl

[Slaveaway]

21 for a restricted ATP.

I'm currently working at a U.S. Regional flying 90-100 hours a month. (Granted I do have the opportunity to fly less, but I need the cash)

With all due respect to everyone here, U.S. Regionals, for the most part, are not sunshine and roses.

[V1cutz]

You can hardly compare 90-100 hours at a US regional to the type of flying you will be doing here. 90 to 100 hours up and down the East Coast, mostly during the day, is a cake walk compared to 90 plus hours across multiple time zones mostly in the middle of night. But hey, knock yourself out if you want to join. You will see for yourself soon enough and will be back on the computer filling out apps for any airline back home that will hire you.

[The Outlaw]

Slaveaway,

You really have no idea do you? There are 100's of guys here who are trying to get your job, who have regretted leaving your job.

You haven't even considered all the other things that you give up to come here, you're just focused on the big machine and destinations and I understand that but you're missing the forest for the trees. A cockpit is a cockpit is a cockpit. Whatever the size of the aircraft behind the cockpit door means nothing because it doesn't change your pay. A 777 cockpit might as well be 170 cockpit, its just a place with 2 seats and a some buttons that turn on pumps etc that you share with some dude/chick for "X" hours that you've never met before.

I digress, no one will be able to help you understand how it goes here, you'll have to make your own mistakes in life. If you do decide to go down the expat life then understand that you will always be a mercenary for the rest of your career and that means you can basically kiss jobs like Delta, United, American etc goodbye!

[Chocks Away]

Shiny Jet Syndrome (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/files/sjs-b6.pdf) is alive and well. :8

Happy landings what ever you choose but do the research. :ok:

[cherokee and bus]

EK No restrictions on living in a compound . Not allowed to drive . Outside compound you need to be accompanied by a male

I cannot get the above. Does that happen in Dubai ?

(Bigmountain posted that on the previous page)

[Flyboy_SG]

@BigMountain....:D:D:D Excellent post sir,many thanks. And Thank you everyone else for your insights too. I'm yet to hear from EKs cousin (they are not hiring Boeing boys for long time) and QR. I have few more months to take the final decision considering the facts that every place has + n - ,I'll choose what suits me the best. As of now SV seems too good to resist.

@cherokee : he meant the restrictions in Jeddah.


@Slaveaway : if I was you I would never leave a wonderful country like USA. Believe me I would be happy flying regionals(slowly transition to bigger jets) there, than a WB job in ME.
Even though I get paid more or less the same (as pic vs ME FO) here in my county, I consider ME for a better lifestyle, roster, airline stability and so on. I almost lost my job and wasnt paid for few months when my company went into trouble.

If you want to gain some experience, cut down the transition time to WB and move back to US, then I think it's not a bad call. It's entirely your personal choice. Since you are young your body can take all the beating and you can see the world (or atleast try with layovers getting short) At 30s n older it takes a heavy toll on your body.


Cheers :ok:

[alloha]

If i was 23 and had the option of flying a T7 or other big jet in a big airline i would have gone without second thought. Come on guys Slaveaway is 23 no family no obligations.in 7-9 years he will be an experience WB skipper and then he will have the calls for his next job. My only question is if EK will hire someone so young

[BigGeordie]

Does he have an ATPL and a pulse? Then they will hire him IF he passes the selection. However, the minimum requirements are just that, minimums. At the moment EK still have enough applicants with a pulse and a few thousand hours but in a few years (months? weeks?) who knows.

[ClimbSequence]

I totally agree with Alloha,

Slaveaway is young, single and with a common pilot's ambition of riding a big widebody.
I think you have a life ahead and joining QR, EK or EY is a good step to fly nice airplanes, get to know the world and due to their fast expansion in the upcoming years I wouldn't be surprise you will end Up left seater in less than a decade.
How long would it take that to achieve it in the U.S.?
I would say not less than 20-25 years even with the current situation (lot of hirings, pilot retirements, etc...)
Top of that, conditions are very good in the Middle East. Forget about complainers, most of them take things for granted and do not appreciate what God have provided them and their families before stating EK or QR is a hell place to work.
Go ahead with your applications buddy and good luck on your flying career!!!:ok:

[WhiteFly]

Being a lurker here I would like to note most ppl that are happy or atleast ok with EK are not posting here and doing other things with there time.

I would recommend EK no questions asked.. Being young and single even more reason to join... Thousands of CC for the picking all looking for Mr. Right :O

Also In less than 5 years i got my upgrade on the fatbus which is awesome and kinda of unheard of...

Let the whiners whine... Im one of the happy campers here in the sandpit..

[Kapitanleutnant]

Climbsequence…

20-25 years for even a wide body captain at a US Major??? Have you even seen the retirement numbers for the big 3 alone??? I think your math is a little "fuzzy".

I honestly think that someone hired today with UA, DL or AA will be a left seat (granted, an MD80 in LGA) in 7-9 years! Even back in my day, I could have been a wide body captain at the 13-14 year point.. with hardly any retirements!

There is SO much more to this decision than just a left seat…. what about the type of management slave mentality EK currently has? Does that no count for something to at least be aware of and realize that 95 hours a month with too many time zones to count will make this 23 year old kid look twice his age after a decade or less even. The constant fear of warning letters, the tea and biscuits, lack of the advertised 42 days vacation… the list goes on and on. Such naivety…..

This kid has no idea what I'm talking about because it's not ever mentioned at road shows.

My 2 fils…

K

[Emma Royds]

If i was 23 and had the option of flying a T7 or other big jet in a big airline i would have gone without second thought. Come on guys Slaveaway is 23 no family no obligations.in 7-9 years he will be an experience WB skipper and then he will have the calls for his next job. My only question is if EK will hire someone so young

If one achieves their command on a wide body, then does that open doors to more attractive jobs, than if you elected to fly a smaller type in your own country?

The majority of Captains here at EK talk about China, Turkish or Korean. Need I say more?

[BigGeordie]

How many captains in the American big three are looking at leaving or would love to retire early?

How many at EK?

Does that tell you something?

[corsair44]

Slaveaway,
If you already work for us regional airline, don't you have the opportunity , in the future, to integrate a main us carrier ??
This could make sens to provide you better conditions in a short future I think...

[mutt]

Quite amazing to see SV compared with EK...... EK management should really hang their heads in shame!

[framer]

I would go. At 22 years old he will not grow weary like most of us do. By the time he is thirty two and thinking of settling down he will have money behind him and will know the world. In your twenties you can handle a lot. Just my two cents.

[Flyboy_SG]

Why not Mutt? The conditions have degraded so much there and SV was never inferior to any airline in the big league.

[mutt]

SV was never inferior to any airline in the big league. Says who? Come back to us in a year if you still feel the same way:)

[polax52]

I would go. At 22 years old he will not grow weary like most of us do. By the time he is thirty two and thinking of settling down he will have money behind him and will know the world. In your twenties you can handle a lot. Just my two cents.

I would not go. The best career path these days is to be able to be flexible and have options open to you. The only way to do that is to have a well recorded initial command from your own country. If I was young right now I would work hard for peanuts in an LCC until I had 2000 hours PIC and I could make greasy landings more times than not, just like the Chinese like. The world would then be my oyster, I could take the 350k at Hainan full time or 200k month on month off. I could explore all the command opportunities in the muddle east. I would not be tied to Emirates.

[Flyboy_SG]

Mutt 😷

Well said Polax, sounds like a plan. But that can suit most of the guys but not everyone. These airlines hire 2000hrs pic holders (narrow body) as wide body FOs. Considering the fact that if one is interested in Widebody command or just Widebody lifestyle he or she should just join asap and not wait for 2000+ pic. I agree PIC hours are gold but having that has no priority over Widebody command. Without Widebody experience no one is ready to give you command even with 4000 pic. Besides what if the low cost carrier is responsible for the all the grey hair which one gets in 20s n early 30s. I have seen narrow body commanders in mid 20s get gray hairs. With 4-6 sectors a day and upto 120 hrs of flying a month.

Yes I did take my command for my personal satisfaction but I may not wait for 2000 pic. I'm losing out on quality time with family , personal time, workouts , rest, fatigued all the time, sleep deprived and so on. We get squeezed like the water bottles you see in the cockpit upto 6 times a day. To add a great management which doesn't care about you and a country which sucks out your hard earned money on taxes. I have operated 5 early mornings in a row. That is like legally 610 and later departure but you wake up somewhere better 3-5 am. Which totally sucks ! All this for half the money in ME. Slaveaway can do it but not me.

yes I would have still taken all the beating and did what you said provided I was in my early or even mid 20s.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[nolimitholdem]

You're wrong! ;-)

I'm losing out on quality time with family , personal time, workouts , rest, fatigued all the time, sleep deprived and so on. We get squeezed like the water bottles you see in the cockpit upto 6 times a day. To add a great management which doesn't care about you and a country which sucks out your hard earned money on taxes. I have operated 5 early mornings in a row. That is like legally 610 and later departure but you wake up somewhere better 3-5 am. Which totally sucks ! All this for half the money in ME. Slaveaway can do it but not me.

With the exception of the "6 times a day", which is only different due to the type of flying, everything you say is EXACTLY the same at EK. Except you won't do the 3am wakeups in a row, they'll be random times all over the clock, which is worse. There may be no income tax - yet - but there are few places that can "suck out your hard earned money" like Dubai. Fuel costs now up 24%, 7% VAT coming, and bill drafted for tax on income.

To leave a narrowbody command in your home country for a uncertain widebody command that at best would be years away - and moving further away - is madness. Especially with a five year 42,000 USD commitment.

For what? To say you fly something heavy? To pull cabin crew, as suggested? Ohhhh kayyy....

[Flyboy_SG]

No, to gain more exposure, experience,see the rest of the world which I haven't seen and obviously save money.

Regarding the downsides of my present job.....There still more to it... Example roster plan for 3 days and changes it that too...lol.
Being few hundred Kms away from my parents I'm not able to visit them in say 3 months. I can do that easily being in ME.

I have eliminated EK. Can't take a risk of 5 year bond. Tell me more about EKs neighbour, QR n SV

It may not be green and all that rosy but Im sure it's better than what I'm doing now.
Besides I can always get back to what I'm doing in future if I don't like it.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

EK - For sure.

[mamamia]

SV. Offer way superior deal than other GULF carriers if you are a FO on the t7 you'll be making 14000usd to 16000usd housing will be provided by the company initially you'll be provided a hotel currently waiting time is about a year for the housing one free travel extra crew unlimited tickets with other companies id90 Saudi gives you one leave ticket to your home base one ticket is subject to space available a lot of pilots coming here from gulf carriers if your captain on a320 you will make about 19000 usd captain on the a330 makes 15000usd and on b777 makes about 19000 used and over you are paid 14 salaries bonus about 90000 usd every 3 years plus indemnity working in other gulf carriers you will be making average 12000 usd life in Saudi basically work saudi is buying 100 airplanes in next 5 years b787 and b 777 and a330

[chrislikesblue]

What about time to upgrade to left seat on B777? How long is average period in each company?

[Wizofoz]

Offer way superior deal than other GULF carriers if you are a FO on the t7 you'll be making 14000usd to 16000usd housing will be provided by the company initially you'll be provided a hotel currently waiting time is about a year for the housing one free travel extra crew unlimited tickets with other companies id90 Saudi gives you one leave ticket to your home base one ticket is subject to space available a lot of pilots coming here from gulf carriers if your captain on a320 you will make about 19000 usd captain on the a330 makes 15000usd and on b777 makes about 19000 used and over you are paid 14 salaries bonus about 90000 usd every 3 years plus indemnity working in other gulf carriers you will be making average 12000 usd life in Saudi basically work saudi is buying 100 airplanes in next 5 years b787 and b 777 and a330

And apparently the ability to use punctuation is optional.......

[V1cutz]

Who cares? Is this a site about flying or an online lesson on punctuation?

[Kapitanleutnant]

I personally find it a bit hard to believe Saudia pays 19K a month for a T7 captain. That's quite a disparity between all other ME carriers.

Is this on paper somewhere eg, a contract?

Kap

[mutt]

I personally find it a bit hard to believe Saudia pays 19K a month for a T7 captain Believe it! and thats for the guys on the lower part of the salary scale.

[mutt]

I believe that they will also be the first ME airline to offer this.....

Are you willing to move to RUH as HOME BASE and having lines with 20 Days ON (Flight Duties) and 10 Days OFF ? *

But obviously with 10 days off, the salaries mentioned above wont be reached.

[Ramsey]

Found this using google https://ptisidiastima.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/saudi-airlines.pdf

It seems a long way from 19000us $... Is there a new contract out?

[mutt]

There is an unwritten rule that people won't publish the exact rates or details, but focus on item #7.

[Romasik]

Who cares? Is this a site about flying or an online lesson on punctuation?
I care, for example. It's difficult to read.

[Iver]

I agree with Romasik. That long run-on sentence is SUPER ANNOYING.

[Gander_Radio]

The numbers are real. I personally know people that work there and I can assure you that the numbers are quite real. I also know that the A320 skippers make the most over there with salaries that can exceed 20k if its a busy month.

However, A320 in SV carries out the most hectic work of the regional network.

[captainpluto]

CRM in the cockpit would be way better in EK then in SV, which is most important for any FO as at the end of your flight if you go home demoralised and demotivated by your Capt you wouldn't care how much you earn. Relaxed cockpit atmosphere is a must for any pilot to perform. Any pointers on how is the cockpit atmosphere in SV?

[polax52]

I don't see EK salaries being discussed. Why do we have to discuss SV salaries.

The basic salary is public knowledge.