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Don Corleone
27th Jul 2015, 14:34
Good news for those flying on turbo props or light jets. Emirates lowered their requirements for first officers.

As I see on the line the majority are unhappy with the lifestyle, not the benefits. So maybe instead of complaining about the amount of hours we fly, the leave we don't get, the difficulties with swapping and the timeframe for promotions. Maybe, just maybe, we should try to get more people to Emirates. Maybe I'm thinking too easy, but doesn't it need more pilots to join to have the above changed for the better in the first place?

dboy
27th Jul 2015, 14:44
What requirements are we now talking now?

Do you have more details?

Tx

Don Corleone
27th Jul 2015, 14:47
ATPL & English level 4 or above. Check EK website

VeroFlyer
27th Jul 2015, 15:02
What no hours requirements at all?! Wow!

120feet
27th Jul 2015, 15:12
Don,
EK has been short pilots for 8 years. They stopped hiring for several of them. They continue to announce new flights when they don't have enough pilots for the one's they have now. If they were so worried about the EK pilots health, they wouldn't have been running 8 days off a month on the 330 guys for the last 3-4 years. No, improving conditions is too hard. Getting Dash-8 guys to apply for a wide body gig is easy. Like taking candy from a baby. Congrats to all EK captains, you have just been promoted to TRI's. :D

Emma Royds
27th Jul 2015, 16:18
The requirement is an ATPL means 1500 hours.

What is worthy of note is that the company can now conduct ZFT training for individuals with considerably less experience than those holding a newly issued ATPL and 1500 hours.

Should there not be enough interest with the requirements as they are now, then expect them to be lowered further.

dboy
27th Jul 2015, 16:26
Well it is not going to happen for me. 4000tt with 3600 hours on small jet but still flying with cpl frozen atpl.

Perhaps it is a bless if i read all the comments.

Don Corleone
27th Jul 2015, 16:34
@120feet

If nobody joins it won't get any better for sure isn't it?! If (a big IF) management wants to change things, they need pilots joining first before anything else. Without them expect things to get even worse.

Although some people like to think it is, flying a wide body is not rocket science. I have confidence in our recruitment team, they have done a pretty good job until now.

Dualinput
27th Jul 2015, 17:11
From Pistons directly on to B777/A380!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Pilot_Recruit
27th Jul 2015, 17:12
Clearly they recognize there's a problem but yet still refuse to do anything to keep the current work force in place...it really is disappointing. While I know I shouldn't be surprised, I just can't help but be surprised by their ability to remain totally arrogant even in the situation they currently find themselves in.

While this won't stop the attrition, they definitely will have a massive surplus of applicants now. There are plenty of unhappy turbo prop guys just waiting for a chance to get into the jet 'game'.

cost neutral
27th Jul 2015, 18:26
Did wash up only few days ago, from HR new joiners ATPL + 500hrs.
The 500 hrs are anything at and above Twin Otter.
This IS the new standard.

GoreTex
27th Jul 2015, 18:36
will be interesting when the press finds out

bleeke
27th Jul 2015, 18:40
Is there an age limit?

Don Corleone
27th Jul 2015, 19:03
And then what GoreTex? The skies are full with pilots with even less hours and only holding a CPL, even on the wide bodies....

GoreTex
27th Jul 2015, 19:07
Don,

the FAA increased the hours required to fly a commercial plane

Calmcavok
27th Jul 2015, 19:40
So a licence holder that can speak reasonable English. That is as low as a requirement can go. I've heard tell of a time previously when entry requirements were that low, perhaps mid-80s? What happens when the US opens up to expats?

Plane_Sailing
27th Jul 2015, 19:42
I'd certainly rather fly beside a turboprop pilot with 1500 hours than a cadet with 500. Not that the cadets are bad.

Sheikh Your Bootie
27th Jul 2015, 20:21
From what I hear habibis, lots of headless chickens on the upper floors of the bouncy castle, all blaming each other for the current shambles.

Apparently, the Turboprop guys thing has been vetoed by the bossman. Its 777 DECs back on, this will be fun to watch. Thinking is that the 777 is a more "attractive" type than the A330 is. Some of these people just don't get it, DEC's = floodgates open for 777 F/Os leaving.

Also, was told current attrition rate is near 11%, however anyone over 50 leaving is regarded as Retiring, so its actually in Emirates speak only 3.8% :=:=

Interesting times ahead, what with more flights, less pilots, more aircraft, less pilots.

SyB :zzz:

Don Corleone
28th Jul 2015, 01:45
GoreTex, if I'm not mistaken the FAA requires 1500hrs. Thats exactly what an ATPL is. 1500hrs including 500hrs multi pilot. So I don't see Emirates making the papers on this subject other then a big advertisement announcing their roadshows.

GoreTex
28th Jul 2015, 02:13
Don,
other airlines have a training department but EK doesn't, EK has a checking department

AviatoR21
28th Jul 2015, 03:35
Pretty sure the jet hour requirement still applies regardless of what's on the website....

fatbus
28th Jul 2015, 03:57
Gore tex, do you put in feedback after recurrent or read the news letter. Big strides have be make to change things from checking to training and feed back refects that.

Pucka
28th Jul 2015, 04:23
Don,
other airlines have a training department but EK doesn't, EK has a checking department

Wrong..CX has a checking department..must be same management..welcome to the new socialist experiment..!!

ruserious
28th Jul 2015, 05:05
Gore tex, do you put in feedback after recurrent or read the news letter. Big strides have be make to change things from checking to training and feed back refects that.

By training, if you mean paint by numbers, how to fly airplanes, then you might be correct. Never heard so much auto-verbalization of nonsense dressed up as SOP's.

glofish
28th Jul 2015, 06:06
It's a logical evolution.

You need to lower the newbee's requirements, because you need to keep the same big experience gradient between the actual TRI/E's and the trainees.

I acknowledge that there was a strive to change from numb checking to training, but the bad influence from fleet and upper management successfully eroded what little progress had been achieved.

Just read the ASR summary and extrapolate it with what will be trained shortly! :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

Praise Jebus
28th Jul 2015, 07:44
This will at least allow experienced military turbo prop guys to get a gig....but there goes the supply and demand leverage.

Monarch Man
28th Jul 2015, 08:56
Jebus, speaking to a couple of fellow ex Lyneham inmates, nearly all of them would opt for VS or BA through the various ex service pilot schemes on offer. Jetpoo are also offering openings for TP guys who have done their EASA conversion.
This is all being targeted at the likes of the 20 something year old TP pilots in First world countries who feel stuck, and want a jet job.
Bandaid at best given that there are relatively few large TP's in service.

Praise Jebus
28th Jul 2015, 12:20
MM agree however it might come as a surprise for you to know this but not all large military TP crews are British. Apparently other nations have acquired the hardware and skills....even the Americans and dare I say it but those annoying colonial types as well.

bia botal
28th Jul 2015, 12:34
We should all see this as a clear indication that EK management have zero interest in changing terms and conditions in a positive direction, the only reason they can't attract suitable jet time candidates is because of the package, turboprop guys are stuck in a rut as low cost carriers will not take them and they will leap from high places at a chance like this, and the package will look to them like cream with lots of strawberries on top. And that is how it will stay.

And what for next year, 26 new 380's arriving, what then, just who is going to operate these aircraft, is there enough 330/340 captains to fill these ranks, leaving another hole to fill, more low time guys filling position that they just don't have the experience to handle.

What is needed is a pay increase upwards of 20/30% this and only this wil start to change the tide, anything else offered at the moment is bull:mad:, this and only this will make quality candidates look again in the direction on EK, then as the numbers increase the other terms will start to be honoured.

How on earth the company expects large numbers of turbo prop guys to get through sim training let alone the interview process when a large number of high jet time guys have failed in the past is beyond me, no doubt our standards in the sim will be lowered along with the experience requirements.

I would not fancy being a trainer with all this going on, good luck guys you are going to need it, remember that 2 is now a 3, or else!!!!

Am NOT Sure
28th Jul 2015, 13:09
This is a sad day


They have a fixed package and they want to run an airline around it

Seats will be filled .. No doubt

I wanted to throw in a few words about the subject but what's the point ?

This is clearly a slap in the face to the current workforce

SOPS
28th Jul 2015, 13:28
They are trying to fill seats, no matter what. The 9th floor culture won't allow to accept something is wrong. That would involve loss of face, and taking responsibility, something the culture does not allow.

A few floors down, they can not admit there is a problem, because they will lose their enormous bonuses. They just sit and watch, and count the money.

The wheels have well and truely fallen off.

striker26
28th Jul 2015, 13:43
Emirates wont be the first or last airline to reduce requirements. Just look at their upcoming orders! I think mgmt has decided they'd better train their own well for the long run, than have a hiring spree of pilots in the global market in haste later on.

From my knowledge, their National cadet program enrollment every year has been increasing but we must also note that more and and more pilots are considering other expanding airlines like Qatar and Etihad.

Luke SkyToddler
28th Jul 2015, 14:06
With all due respect bia botal, and I don't disagree that you guys deserve a pay rise and I wish you all the very best with getting one ...

... but if you seriously believe that a good young turboprop captain, with a few years command time in a Dash-8 or ATR-72, who's been trained by a top shelf first world operator like Qantaslink or Wideroe or Flybe or Air New Zealand, is somehow not a "quality candidate", or is going to require standards to be lowered in order to occupy the right seat of an EK jet, then you sir are completely full of :mad: .

I'd argue that hiring those kind of guys, will probably turn out to be a very good thing for the overall airline operating standard, as long they pick them correctly. It's a smart and long overdue move by the airline.

JammedStab
28th Jul 2015, 14:31
How on earth the company expects large numbers of turbo prop guys to get through sim training let alone the interview process when a large number of high jet time guys have failed in the past is beyond me, no doubt our standards in the sim will be lowered along with the experience requirements.



Why have a large number of high time jet guys failed? Were they weak or is the training particularly tough.

Don Corleone
28th Jul 2015, 15:35
Like I said before Luke, some people in EK like to believe that flying a wide body is rocket science

120feet
28th Jul 2015, 16:10
There appears to be some confusion about what the guys are concerned about here. Flying the airplane is a very very small part of the job. At EK it's about 1% of the time. So it is not that they hate TP guys nor think them inferior pilots. The same concern would be levied against a Red Bull air racer. The simple fact is most props are limited to a very tiny region of the globe, and hence so is your TP experience. Yes, there are exceptions. I am saying most. Now, you are a captain on your 7th day in a row, flying a trip that has been reduced from three pilots to two pilots. (Due to lack of crew.) You have a TP guy with 2000 hours sitting next to you over deepest darkest Africa, in an airplane that may be 100 times heavier, fly 3 times faster and take 10 times the runway to stop then what he just stepped out of, and facing weather he has never seen. As a TP he will have very little to offer except SOP regurgitation, which will get you through 95% of it. But when it counts, really counts, and things are going pear shaped, there are safety issues that need to be addressed. The TP pilot may very well may end up adding stress to the problem. The concerns have very little to do with flying the airplane it has to do with experience. This is not an offense, many of us started there, myself included. However, I can tell you there is a legitimate concern. Now, if EK wants to do 50 sectors with the TP guys and let them fill their boots, then no worries. Or hey, better the T&C and keep the guys you have. All this IMHO.....


Years ago a CRJ 70 was not good enough but a CRJ 90 was. Same plane. The things EK does rarely make sense.

Pilot_Recruit
28th Jul 2015, 16:54
You could make the exact same argument against narrow body jet drivers.

donpizmeov
28th Jul 2015, 17:20
120,


How is that any different to that same Captain sitting next to a easy/ryan/wiz/enter your own P2F FO now?


The turbo prop fella might know how to actually fly. The turbo prop fella is use to flying in the weather.


Other airlines have hired Turbo prop onto jets for years. I cant see the issue. Interesting to see that some that refer to this as being a lowering of requirements were themselves were only hired after the requirements were lowered last time. But that is somehow different I guess. Just as those that joined post 2004 can whine about flying 90hrs per month, having leave held back, and DECs. These things didn't count when they were happening to other people here, when/before you joined, but is important now as it happens to you.


I just hope I don't have to sit next to a whining ex turbo prop FO complaining that his 2 year promised command isn't happening, as I do with those fine, hair gelled, 4000hr sky gods now.

Is it rude to say we told you so?

Gusz
28th Jul 2015, 17:30
I have to agree with Don Corleone, flying an Airliner is not rocket science, I get your point africa flying,massive storms, crossing the pond, etc, again not rocket science maybe a good challenge and a steep learning curve, but not hard to learn. Cheers.

Pulkdahulk
28th Jul 2015, 18:21
Haha you guys are hilarious. Do you know we have 50+ guys out on sick leave for heart stroke?! Flying wide body aircraft through 20+ time zones is nothing like flying a TP for 8 hours in 2 time zones! Come on over and fly 0100 to 0900 and see how long it takes to grow grey hair with 96 hours a month and 6-8 days off a month, we are dying over here!!@!@!

Then leave if you have to. Do not sit and complain, fly, and again come over here and again complain about this or that. Find a job back in your country that suits your lifestyle and leave. Instead if I find all of you who have been complaining still at EK months after, you have no one to blame except yourself for the dilapidated position.

There are enough pilots to fill into all of our (everyone who has been whining) boots so let's not go down that route. Don't like something, stop, find something that suits you and move on.

The Outlaw
28th Jul 2015, 18:34
Pulk...


A very simple minded approach...but OK...lets go with it!

Apply to EK...please come here and enjoy the fruits of hard labour and 7 days off per month with most of your duties during the dark hours...actually you'd be flying to your home country so it'll feel like home! Have no fear of cancer, strokes or other diseases of the fatigued body....I'm sure there are thousands like you who would love to come here!

Yes...Ek is the place for you....please come...we need people like you to fill the ranks on the 330 fleet so that those who know what its really like can put forward a glimmer of hope to move to the 777 or 380.

To finish...people are leaving...to the tune of an attrition rate of 11% (these are the true figures, as opposed to the figures HR are told to put forward)...yes its that bad and will continue to be as the global market place for pilots suddenly changed and many can't leave here fast enough.

Neptune Spear
28th Jul 2015, 19:00
Funny now the word is FOs are resigning at a 3-1 clip more than the Emirates captains. This is real trouble for the airline down the road. Who is going to upgrade in 12-18 months? Hire the dreaded DECs and watch how many more FOs leave. What to do?
Many sectors now have 2 capts and 1 fo. PER, NRT and KIX.
Since there is a worldwide pilot shortage Emirates will very qucikly run out of TP pilots. Even the TP pilots will get sick of the treatment at Emirates after 2 years. Then what, can Emirates lower their standard or requriements any more?
Only slightly more than a month to go from this dump. It is time to go, how say you?

Pulkdahulk
28th Jul 2015, 19:18
Things have changed. No doubt about that. But none of us can do anything about that. I have been reading for years on the forum and I know that it won't. They got lots of cash, they don't need to bend. They know they can get people to come for interviews and neither unions are allowed in ME3. So all in all, let's stop the rambling and focus our efforts on something productive. No point rambling here. People who will join will join and the 9th floor or the floors below them don't CARE.

Pilots have been rambling that there is crew shortage and they fly too much, so EK also knows they aren't getting talents. So leave it to them if they have to get turboprops or ATP holders or whatever. How does it matter to you all. If no one is joining them and they had to lower their requirements to ease all of your flying or new airplanes or whatever reason, so be it. Let's not get down that route that TP pilots or guys with low time cannot fly weather or don't have experience. People will do the exact opposite no matter what you say and all of you should know this by now.

kingpost
28th Jul 2015, 19:18
It certainly sends a message to the crew, you ain't going to get a decent increase in years to come, I would state that this is the end of what is left of the rainbow!!! They use to have a pretty high entry level standard, this has slowly started a trip downhill - nothing against a TP pilot but, at entry level, they're actually not on par with an ex wide body pilot.

Good luck to all the TP pilots, it's certainly an opportunity but do your homework first.

Has the race to the bottom been won yet?

striker26
28th Jul 2015, 19:34
I love the hate Emirates gets. In all honesty there is no perfect airline. You cant trust half the posts here about Emirates because either they're just jealous for some reason or they're expats who want to go home for various reasons.

From my memory, Emirates emerged as the first middle eastern global superpower and still is today, they even got the US airlines scratching their heads!. Their safety record speaks for itself. If you are an Emirates pilot and dont like it, leave lol. The airline is one of the most profitable today, you cant fault their business model, whether you work 40 hrs a month or 96.

striker26
28th Jul 2015, 19:42
I'll also mention that EK is also a fully widebody fleet oriented airline, every other airline Etihad, Qatar, Saudia etc, have an element of narrow body fleets as well. So pilots entering the airline have an option, i.e. they can choose whether they want to go from an a320 to an a380. Emirates does'nt have this option and its up to you when you fill out the application whether you want that lifestyle. Whether they ask for 1500 hrs or 4000 is meaningless. Its your choice.

alwayzinit
28th Jul 2015, 22:04
Striker, actually EK's profitability was better a few years ago than this so called "record" year.
Interestingly the legacy carriers in the US posted larger profits whilst having much higher overheads.
Nothing and I do mean nothing, would make me happier to be proud of the airline I work for, as I was when I joined 9 years ago.
We were motivated and rewarded accordingly. Today we are neither.
As to your belief that all expats want to go home, well no actually, many of us left for good reasons. Going back is a last resort when health and the bigger picture of as long a life as possible become issues.
Leave? You bet! We are and in ever increasing numbers. Many are leaving aviation completely even though short of anything like viable pension.
Highly respected and talented Trainers are leaving too. In real terms EK has a real problem.
I take absolutely no pleasure in stating the above but your BS had to be answered.

AviatoR21
28th Jul 2015, 23:28
Does this mean a SE Instructor with an ATPL can apply too? Not that there's anything wrong with that....EK had the requirements to obviously select the best candidates. Can't anyone see how desperate they are if they are opening the doors to everyone with an ATPL? Having an ATPL to me, is just a tick in the box. You can't beat experience. Good luck to anyone who applies and I hope to not read your posts on here in a few years time complaining....

Continental-520
28th Jul 2015, 23:28
Props are not the issue
There appears to be some confusion about what the guys are concerned about here. Flying the airplane is a very very small part of the job. At EK it's about 1% of the time. So it is not that they hate TP guys nor think them inferior pilots. The same concern would be levied against a Red Bull air racer. The simple fact is most props are limited to a very tiny region of the globe, and hence so is your TP experience. Yes, there are exceptions. I am saying most. Now, you are a captain on your 7th day in a row, flying a trip that has been reduced from three pilots to two pilots. (Due to lack of crew.) You have a TP guy with 2000 hours sitting next to you over deepest darkest Africa, in an airplane that may be 100 times heavier, fly 3 times faster and take 10 times the runway to stop then what he just stepped out of, and facing weather he has never seen. As a TP he will have very little to offer except SOP regurgitation, which will get you through 95% of it. But when it counts, really counts, and things are going pear shaped, there are safety issues that need to be addressed. The TP pilot may very well may end up adding stress to the problem. The concerns have very little to do with flying the airplane it has to do with experience. This is not an offense, many of us started there, myself included. However, I can tell you there is a legitimate concern. Now, if EK wants to do 50 sectors with the TP guys and let them fill their boots, then no worries. Or hey, better the T&C and keep the guys you have. All this IMHO.....


Years ago a CRJ 70 was not good enough but a CRJ 90 was. Same plane. The things EK does rarely make sense.



You could argue that both ways. For me, the phase with the most legitimate concerns tend to be for the first and last few minutes of the flight. If you consider that most accidents and incidents occur during takeoff and/or landing, then the experience of the turboprop guy is far greater than a long haul pilot of the same total time. Some of those turboprop guys will do 6 landings a day, whereas long haul wouldn't even do that in a month in some cases.

I think most turboprop-come-jet pilots will agree that the jet flying is considerably less demanding than flying turboprops, as far as the flying itself goes. The concepts involved with jets come quickly to most with exposure.

In my own experience, the Captains who came from turboprops or other non-airliner types tend to think in a lot more broader terms than those who've been on jets for a long time or solely.

Just my 2 cents...


520.

GoreTex
28th Jul 2015, 23:55
fatbus,
yes I always do and got in trouble for a bit "too outspoken"

anyway, I am on my way out and have nothing to loose

glofish
29th Jul 2015, 07:16
There is a huge misinterpretation of our many critics about lowering the requirements. The most suitable applicant would be a 777/380 FO with 2500h on type. The least suitable, however possible, is an ab initio candidate. The difference between the two is the amount, time and quality of training reqired to bring him up to a level that skippers can go to the isolation cell in the most remote part of the aircraft for rest without their heart racing. And this is where EK is failing miserbly. The erosion of training quality by delegating almost everything to distant learning, the ever less experienced trainers who can basically only rely on books and sops, but very little real experience, is paired with the need of hiring less experienced candidates due to the suitable ones shunning the gulag.

Nothing against TP pilots, their basic capacity is the same, but many of us have experienced the integration of lesser experiend pilots with an inadequate syllabus and training department, always considering their basic skills. They need more and different modules and most importantly more line training. That is expensive and man-intensive and will therefore not happen. The burden and even some incurring risk is shoved down the exhausted and frustrated line pilots just for the sake of profit and greed, victim is safety.

I just wonder how the insurance companies look at this evolution. The regulator is corrupt and the customers lured in a constant rose tinted bubble.
Brace for a serious incident and it will be BAH all over again and all the responsible crooks will put on an innocent face and pretend that no one could have seen this coming. Like LH ....

Luke SkyToddler
29th Jul 2015, 08:50
I can't believe some of this pompous horse manure I'm reading here. The US majors hire just about all their guys from turboprop / RJ / ex mil / bizjet backgrounds. Same with a few other dodgy amateur operators like Cathay, Qantas, Virgin :rolleyes:

In fact the exact opposite argument is flying around in Cathay at the moment, I had some beers with one of their checkies a few weeks back, and he was weeping and wailing about how the standards have massively fallen in recent years, since they went away from the policy of recruiting most of their guys from those kind of experienced backgrounds, and more towards hiring local cadets.

Also, it's never been easier these days for a kid to go buy a job and a couple thousand hours with a crappy third world 737/A320 operator, and not learn a bloody thing in that time except how to be a lazy useless SOP cowboy. And I would argue it's much much easier to get away with being lazy and useless in a modern jet as opposed to a turboprop, because 99% of the time the systems on the jet will save you from your own stupidity.

If a guy is still alive and incident free after a few years of turboprop command, then you can at least have some confidence that he knows how to do things like land in a max crosswind, execute a go round at minimums, correctly identify icing conditions and so on. There are plenty of narrowbody jet F/O's out there who still struggle with that stuff believe me.

bia botal
29th Jul 2015, 09:44
I can't believe some of this pompous horse manure I'm reading here. The US majors hire just about all their guys from turboprop / RJ / ex mil / bizjet backgrounds. Same with a few other dodgy amateur operators like Cathay, Qantas, Virgin

Quite true, however I think you'll find that the U.S. Majors then put these guys onto either the same type they have flow or onto 737/320 and that the legacy carriers you mention hire them as second officers!

Also, it's never been easier these days for a kid to go buy a job and a couple thousand hours with a crappy third world 737/A320 operator, and not learn a bloody thing in that time except how to be a lazy useless SOP cowboy. And I would argue it's much much easier to get away with being lazy and useless in a modern jet as opposed to a turboprop, because 99% of the time the systems on the jet will save you from your own stupidity.

I think you'll find there are plenty of kids buying jobs in crabby third world turboprop operators, but by your argument turboprop guys :ok: jet guys :=
As for your statement that 99% of the time the system will save us, perhaps a look at the last few hull losses you discover the system did nothing but confuse the crews!
If a guy is still alive and incident free after a few years of turboprop command, then you can at least have some confidence that he knows how to do things like land in a max crosswind, execute a go round at minimums, correctly identify icing conditions and so on. There are plenty of narrowbody jet F/O's out there who still struggle with that stuff believe me.

All valid points, and no one will say that it can't be done because it can and has been done in the past, the problem I believe is summed up nicely by golfish above.
This argument has bounced around the airline industry for years, but it has to be said emirates operation is like no other and at the moment it and the crews are being pushed to there limits, this sh&t has got serious!

Clandestino
29th Jul 2015, 12:19
Mighty jet's RHS is absolutely inappropriate place for ex-TP captain!

If I were TP skipper these days, I would settle for nothing less than jet NTRDEC.

But why would anybody with any common sense really want to come to such an unhappy company as Ek is at the moment!Because there are worse places than EK.

striker26
29th Jul 2015, 13:58
alwayzinit - i respect your opinion completely im just saying that if one doesn't like it shouldn't you move on like you stated? 9 years yes that's a lot of time for things to change for better or worse. If its worse now leave and let the airline suffer, give your services to a company you'd appreciate, that's all.

cerbus
29th Jul 2015, 16:19
That is an awfully big move don't you agree Striker?
If you don't like it leave argument? You will be perfect in the Middle East. Come and give it a try.
You'll like the pay here especially to what you make in Canada.
What posts here on prune is not true in your expert opinion? You seem to know everything about the industry and Emirates so please enlighten us.
Good news for you is that EK is hiring TP pilots so you can now get hired.
Good luck!

Trader
29th Jul 2015, 18:16
Striker has, at most, a commercial licence. Looking at his other posts he is a newbie, yet still an 'expert'.

striker26
29th Jul 2015, 18:44
Im not an expert, i will be honest that i am bias because i was born there, only came to Canada because of my parents and education. Im just saying i see so many people upset with ME airlines, if you are working there you obviously have experience, at least try to apply elsewhere maybe to find better now?

If you made the decision to go their in the first place, whats to say you cant move on? If its this bad why endure it. I'm not saying its easy, but you made the life changing decision to go there in the first place, you can make another to move on if the airline isn't fulfilling what it used to.

We all work so hard to get to to where we are, it wouldn't be fair if it wasn't worthwhile. If Emirates reduces your worthiness im not saying quit, im saying look for other opportunities you obviously have experience! Sorry if i offended you in any way, honestly i do respect any pilot and their opinion, just don't want you to be miserable!

Fire Ball XL5
29th Jul 2015, 19:16
Stryke, you have a long way to go before you understand the realities of this industry... keep cleaning those rose colored glasses ... good luck... you'll need it.:ok:

Pulkdahulk
29th Jul 2015, 19:47
Most of everything that everyone is saying is true. its not easy to move on to a different country and start over again. Also it isn't easy for everything happening at EK to change when the ball is not even in the pilot's court.

Real life example outside flying : I also shoot Electronic Dance Music Festivals around the world apart from flying, and the pay is so low that most of the top 5 photographers including me walked away from them. Guess what, the festival organisers are still getting great shots for free from newbies who want to create a portfolio and be popular. It's the same in almost every industry. It's best not to leave EK because ultimately the loss was mine at the EDM shows. In fact their never used to pay on time, we staged and walked and never came back and now they pay all the photographers (newbies) after every show. We made the difference but who were the gainers : Those newbies!!!

Stick around and fight it out. Don't leave. But also please don't vent. No one who wants to have a piece of that glamour (Joining EK) will listen to any of you. They will go through the grind and then understand. I find the whole activity just increases your frustration and blood pressure.

TheBiggerD
29th Jul 2015, 20:51
"I can't believe some of this pompous horse manure I'm reading here. The US majors hire just about all their guys from turboprop / RJ / ex mil / bizjet backgrounds. Same with a few other dodgy amateur operators like Cathay, Qantas, Virgin :rolleyes:"


"Quite true, however I think you'll find that the U.S. Majors then put these guys onto either the same type they have flow or onto 737/320"






Sigh....no comment...........I didn't know the legacy carriers operated biz jets, ATRs, or F16's............ignorance is bliss....

120feet
29th Jul 2015, 22:33
I can't believe some of this pompous horse manure I'm reading here. The US majors hire just about all their guys from turboprop / RJ / ex mil / bizjet backgrounds. Same with a few other dodgy amateur operators like Cathay, Qantas, Virgin :rolleyes:


Firstly in the US you need 1500 hours before they will let you touch a Dash 8. Second you need at least 3000 hours to submit your application to a Major. Third you need about 5,000 hours TT with about 2,000 PIC to be anywhere near the beginning of competitive. These numbers are not even close to what EK is asking. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
There are several people at EK that are over 10,000 hours with wide body PIC time waiting for the majors to call. You are waaaaay off base on this one my friend.

Pulkdahulk
30th Jul 2015, 00:29
Let's not compare your US standards right now. That's because you've got so many people which is why there is a long waiting time; as a result your higher requirements.

People touch Dash 8, A320, B737, B757s right seat as low as 250 hours and not even one accident till date in the last seven years since the boom happened. Thus with right training, SOP procedures and experience, such matters can be served well.

We have captains who are as young as 24 flying left seat A320 ( Indigo Airlines has got over a 100 airplanes, Along with many other carriers ) that fly almost over 10 million passengers in a year in this country and around the world.

India of course is your biggest market now which is why the ME3 is also investing and wants to invest in shares in the airlines out here. EK also highly respects the Training Standards of Indigo Airlines per se.

It's amazing how the dynamics have changed.

fatbus
30th Jul 2015, 02:05
Pulk.where are you getting this info about EK respecting the training standards at indigo .
I could provide details to the opposite . Have a look at the EK seniority list and it tells the story.

Neptune Spear
30th Jul 2015, 06:25
Pulk I do not know what you are talking about or where you are getting your information from.
In the U.S. a pilot needs 1500 flying hours to get an airline job.
You say the U.S. has lots of people but so does India. What is the difference? Why is India hiring pilots with 250 hours when in the U.S. a pilot has to have over 3000 hours to be competive. A pilot would need less than 3000 hrs if they are not a white male though.

atpcliff
30th Jul 2015, 06:44
U.S.info:
These reduced mins won't help recruit many U.S. guys, because there are so many jobs here.

The turboprops have been (mostly) phased out at the regional airlines...smallest is 50 seat jet, usually.

Guys are coming out of turboprops, 50 seat jets and bizjets, and going straight to 767s, for example at Delta, or straight into 747s at Atlas.

US ATP is 1500 hours, unless you completed a specific type of flight school, like Univ. of North Dakota or Embry-Riddle...you only need 1000 hours. If you are military trained you only need 750 for an ATP. You have to have an ATP to fly right seat in any airliner, including the few remaining -8s.

Delta, American, United, Southwest and FedEx are already experiencing some hiring problems. For example, a recent new-hire class at FEDEX has 1/2 no-shows, and Southwest removed their long-standing 1000 Turbine PIC requirement.

Pilots have been hired with no Turbine PIC at some of these airlines, including Atlas. Lots of the regional jets are parked and/or they are canceling flights for lack of crews.

Delta mgmt came to their union early (before the contract had expired) with a pay raise...this is unusual...and the DAL pilots rejected the increase as unsatisfactory.

Delta is considering starting ab-initio training in the future, as the pilot shortage worsens. American has started flow-through...when you are hired at the American owned regional feeder airline, you are automatically moved to mainline American when your turn comes.

Emirates would get more U.S.guys, if they opened a U.S.pilot base. However, EVERYONE here is paid for their Block hours, regardless if they are in the front seats, or taking a nap in the crew bunks. My airline would go CRAZY if the company asked for us to be paid only when we were in the the front seats!!!

We have gotten one or two guys here at Atlas from Emirates. I think it would be a good fit for the EK guys who like flying worldwide. We fly freight and passengers. You do need a Greencard or U.S. passport. We need a lot of pilots...trying to expand...

Don Corleone
30th Jul 2015, 06:55
In EK you do get paid for the hours spent on the aircraft including bunk, DH or augumenting

kingpost
30th Jul 2015, 07:11
Oh FFS, who gives a toss if they get recruited elsewhere, its never happened before at EK but they now have to do it to keep the show on the road, the sad this is that this is their answer instead of making the package attractive - that's what you should be worried about, the stagnation of your future salary potential!!

bia botal
30th Jul 2015, 07:15
Kingpost.

EXACTLY!!!

LHR Rain
30th Jul 2015, 11:24
Emirates pilots get paid for time on the airplane, FOR NOW. We don't get credit for bunk time that is why so many pilots are over 900 hours for the year.
I'm sure this will change in the months ahead. CRS pilots are saying 110-120 hours a month and will only get credit for stick time. This little nugget doesn't effect the 330 pilots negatively for a change but the other two fleets will be effected big time.

The Outlaw
30th Jul 2015, 12:27
LHR

That move, if true will bankrupt the company.

Nobody will stay for that kind of roster...you have to live a life as well.

They will have my resignation along with countless hundreds of others as well if they try such an utterly stupid move.

Obviously a good way to put out a fire is to throw gas on it!

striker26
30th Jul 2015, 13:54
I feel that if an airline sets their minimum at 1500, all it does is increase the resume intake. I'm sure they'll take experience in hrs over anything any day. If their initial requirement was say 2500, maybe they set it to 1500 now so that can accept the guy with 2000. I don't think they'll hire the guy with 1501 hrs....

In no way can you compare ME to the States though, different dimension entirely.

LHR Rain
30th Jul 2015, 15:55
I wouldn't want to bet any money on that Outlaw. The company is truly desperate now and it is only going to get worse in the months ahead.
If the rumours are true there are some really troubling times for EK;
11% resignation rate.
FOs leaving in droves, at a much higher clip than Capts.
Dubai's astronomical inflation rate and it is only going to go higher w petrol rising 24% and VAT coming in at 7%. As an aside the company had to know these two items were in the works and still screwed us on the Pay Review.
No one qualified wanting to join EK.
1500 hr pilots are now eligible. What's next?
Over 50 pilots off on medical leave for heart problems. Does the company care? Only if they have to park airplanes.
Like I said Outlaw I wouldn't want to put any money on your statement. Plus I don't think too many Canadians or South Africans will leave no matter how much worse it gets here. I won't even mention the 3rd world pilots. They are in even if we fly 125 hrs a month for 50% less pay.

Slaveaway
30th Jul 2015, 16:08
I submitted my App in today. Before anyone says anything, I understand the current condition of Emirates, and I've done hours of research on the work conditions. U.S. Regionals are no better, but at this rate I'll be able to save money. I'm a single 22 male.

I have an ATPL with a type rating in the 170/190 , 2300TT 1100 Multi. 700 Turbine Pilot in command and 300 in a E175.

Are these qualifications at this point competitive? And what equipment can j be expected to get hired in?

Slaveaway
30th Jul 2015, 16:13
My health is great and my bmi is 25.5 if it matters

FoxForce44
30th Jul 2015, 16:18
Love to see the vision from few users of "low quality" pilots from South America Africa. LQ people, LQ qualification, accepts LQ jobs....Sad thing to know guys with this thougths are pilots too.....

Greetings from the 3rd world!

:oh:

misd-agin
30th Jul 2015, 17:45
A couple of observations -


U.S. airlines don't care if you've flown a specific jet type. In the first week of training you get assigned whatever's available. At my company alone they've had almost entire classes go the MD-80, another class go to the 737, another class go to the 767 and another class go to the A320. New hires experience doesn't matter. The odds of having a type rating and actually getting assigned to that a/c as a new hire is very low.


Most U.S. airlines value PIC time over non PIC experience, even in their specific fleet types. And yes, that includes TPIC time. A 5000 hr turboprop pilot, with 2000 hrs of TPIC, will rate higher than a 5000 hr jet pilot with no command experience.


Military training is a plus.


Most don't use helicopter time towards their minimums.


A four year college degree is almost a 100% requirement. There are some who get hired without one. If you're on the low end of TT experience, with no, or low, turbine PIC time, and no college degree, the odds are very small that the Big 3 or Big 4 (AA, DL, UA, SW)(~90% of the U.S. majors) will hire you.


You don't learn much on big jets, you just retain the basics you learned on smaller jets(more landings, more approaches, etc). The flying skills are tough to develop on big jets for the new guys but teaching new SOP's related to long haul ops is fairly easy for a new, but experienced, FO.

SOPS
30th Jul 2015, 23:40
Outlaw...I hear what you are saying and I could not agree more. 110 hours a month!!!, that WILL kill you.

However...when they changed the hours from 78 to 92 hours a month, what did we do, nothing.

I believe the new standard is 96 to 98 hours a month, and I can only assume people are flying the roster.

So what does the company think? Let's try for stick time only and go to 110 hours a month, they won't do anything, they can't do anything, except leave.

And just a few posts back, we have a post from Slaveway, chomping at the bit to fly a big shiny jet for 110 hours a month.

And we have Baron Blue asking if EK will pay to ship his stuff to Dubai.

And over on the EK Interview thread, there are more like him.

I fear bad times ahead, very bad times.

V1cutz
31st Jul 2015, 04:30
Even after seeing a topic called "EK Resignation Tips", which is 10 pages deep, some still think coming here is a good move. The big shiny jet syndrome must be strong in them. :ugh:

Threethirty
31st Jul 2015, 08:29
You know how to wind people up Baron.

SOPS
31st Jul 2015, 09:30
No Baron, they do not.

bia botal
31st Jul 2015, 09:56
SOPS No Baron, they do not.


Along with a great many other things!

Kapitanleutnant
31st Jul 2015, 10:16
BlueBaron:

I personally don't think you've done enough research but all the best to you anyways.

I'd ask this of you; just come back to this forum, this particular thread and give us your thoughts then... Don't be surprised if there are a few " we tried to tell you"

You sincerely don't have any Idea what you're getting into with the EK machine.... None of us here could have even imagined how poor the conditions, rosters and general treatment of pilots could get..... But they have!

Through a colleague, I've heard that a Deputy Chief advises that 95 hours per month WILL BE THE NEW NORM! Why? Not enough pilots. Why? A number have taken heed of these discussions.

Hope to hear from you here on this thread 6-9 months after starting at EK.

Kap

SOPS
31st Jul 2015, 12:35
Baron, you are contracted to fly however many hours are on your roster. And if you seriously think you can survive on 8 days off, flying long haul, back of the clock, or constant night turns, you are seriously deluded.

As has been posted here several times now, there are 50 pilots off long term sick, with serious health problems, of course you may choose to believe the rostering has nothing to do with it.

And, if you dare make a mistake, that 'damages' the brand, just wait and see how that works out for you. Just ask the poor guys in Lagos.

But, you go ahead, don't say you were not warned.

Now I see Baron, you are a CX person. And you think going to Dubai will solve your problems?

I'm going to stop now, back to a glass of wine.

fatbus
31st Jul 2015, 15:08
88 hrs a month includes bunk time towards pay and OT, but bunk time not counted towards FTL 28 days or 12 months 100/900 hrs. Meydan south newer one slightly bigger gardens which come bear. Most pilots getting more than 8 days off.

CamelRustler
31st Jul 2015, 16:00
Fatbus is right. I just took the average of my last 24 months and came up with 8.2 off days a month. Sorry SOP, you are stretching the truth just a bit. If you get on the 777 you will get more. Initially on the 330 you will also but not much. Most FO's I fly with appear to be around 9 days off a month. I have never had bunk time. My EK pajamas are in the wrapper stuffed up in the closet somewhere. If you get on the 330 fleet there are no bunks. But you will get a chance every few months to get 3 hours rest in a seat that reclines a bit further than the cockpit seats on our 9.5 hour flight to western Africa. In the first 9 days next month I have 1 day off. All turns. Most arriving back in Dubai between 0400-0900. But on the upside I have 3 two day off blocks where normally it's just 2. It's like a little present from scheduling. Yeah..........

Pulkdahulk
31st Jul 2015, 16:20
SOPS, where are you now after EK?

The Outlaw
31st Jul 2015, 17:05
Pulk,

Are you serious? You obviously haven't read anything on this site regarding life in the ME. He is HOME....and it doesn't really matter where that is...its not the UAE which was NOT his home.

SOPS.. has left EK and the UAE...he has actually stated that in almost every post over the last 6 months or so. He now does 1 hour trips with a dog for an FO and has switched fuels from JET A to CHARDON A, and answers to a new DFO that shares the same name as the lady on his marriage certificate.

Might be a good idea to read the countless 1000's of posts in PPRUNE regarding problems faced by those working in the ME.

Neptune Spear
31st Jul 2015, 17:28
There is no hope for a lot of pilots. What can they possibly be thinking or are they not even thinking?
There are countless jobs out there in the world. Get the good ones and if you can not get hired at the good ones come (only at the last resort) to the middle east but don't go bitching on these sites.
Sept can't come fast enough.

Fire Ball XL5
31st Jul 2015, 17:40
Brilliant! SOP... a breath of fresh air... keep it coming we need it!:ok:

Fack5
31st Jul 2015, 18:15
Very amusing, the Outlaw. More like that.

harry the cod
31st Jul 2015, 18:50
SOPS

Despite leaving, you obviously still have your finger on the pulse. So please, tell me, what has happened to the 'poor guys in Lagos' after their little taxi incident?

Harry

Pulkdahulk
31st Jul 2015, 18:58
The Outlaw:

Dude Relax!

I just asked where is he nowadays. You don't have to over think and over-react. Chill out bro. ;)

Pulkdahulk
31st Jul 2015, 19:14
I Second Harry !!!

What happened to them?

B737SFP
31st Jul 2015, 19:30
As a matter of curiosity: Don't you guys see no chance of improvement in the foreseeable future ?

One thing I can assure, they will get a huge amount of applications from brazilian's ATR and Ejet drivers.

Just a matter of time until these revised requirements spread around and the influx of applications start.

nolimitholdem
31st Jul 2015, 19:52
Applying is one thing. Still have to pass the sim and language tests.

jack schidt
31st Jul 2015, 20:04
A Psychology Professor talking on Sky News this evening happend to mention about the new requirements for pilots to be mentally screened for unusual mental behaviours.

Would the new hire recruits be automatically deemed to have failed this test, by a normal recruiter, in the know, if these candidates applied here to the pit despite all the sensible advice given here?

Welcome to the place where you have to ask to pee and even before you go to briefing be ready to do the full drugs and alcohol testing process, just to earn a buck!

New hires from the lighter aircraft world are welcome I say, let them come and share the pain if it helps the poor sods here doing 1.5 times reasonable amount of work. (You get rostered for sim support here when you are at maximum hours and can't fly).

(edit) The suggestion from the professor is to look at your work colleagues around you and help the company and the medical teams to work out if someones personality is changeable. The way the system works here, you rarely bump into any colleagues at all when going to work and then only on 4 days a year in class, and that's only about 10 at a time, good to see the system works.

J

vfenext
31st Jul 2015, 20:11
Welcome to the place where you have to ask to pee and even before you go to briefing be ready to do the full drugs and alcohol testing process, just to earn a buck!
I thought that was the case with all airlines these days.

B737SFP
31st Jul 2015, 20:27
Sure...

But there are a lot of pilots from Azul Airlines with pretty good english skills. And I bet that you don't need to have adamantium balls to make thru the simulator.

There are some good professionals down here, despite the disbelief of many.

By the way, I don't fly for Azul and due to family issues I just had to turn down a job in one of the ME3.

So, If I was able to succeed, why my fellow colleagues wouldn't ?

Anyway, I wish all the best for those who are willing to accept this quest.

FMSPEED
31st Jul 2015, 21:22
Nuffsaid b737...

Just wondering if they would look at someone without a full atpl?...(frozen)

Slaveaway
31st Jul 2015, 21:22
So what is competitive now at emirates?

B737SFP
31st Jul 2015, 21:33
Hi FMSPEED...

Unfortunately I don't think they will do that :bored: !

If I'm not wrong, that is some kind of GCAA rule ! The same applies for the other airline a few miles down the road.

:(

TIMINGandLUCK
1st Aug 2015, 06:13
The poor guys in Lagos each got a final warning that lasts 2 years. So thats 2 years without a bonus, without any sort of pay review, and for the FO no chance at an upgrade for the foreseeable future.

SOPS
1st Aug 2015, 08:54
TIMING, yes, that was my information as well.

And Outlaw, small point of order. All my 1 hour trips are done with 2 FOs. We are a three crew operation at all times.

Just back from a 1 hour turn around, might open a bottle of red��

B737SFP
1st Aug 2015, 09:25
This final warning letter thing is something really complicated.

How can a pilot have peace of mind to exercise his duties knowing that he is literally one step away from being fired ?

This is something very serious folks ! You can easily make mistakes when under such amount of pressure.

Probably being fired wouldn't create as much stress as that IMHO.

Iznogood
1st Aug 2015, 09:37
This thread is running too fast :D :D

SOPS
1st Aug 2015, 09:43
You are correct 737. With a final warning letter on your file, you are one " mistake" away from unemployment. How much pressure do you think that must put on people every time they go to work?

But that is the kind of atmosphere that enimates from the flight department in EK.

And some of those in charge of handing out warning letters, do it with relish, they live for it.

Yet, people still want to sign up. Each to their own I suppose.

Basic Service
1st Aug 2015, 11:28
Sleep walking... From an accountants point of view, STC and TCAS are worthy of sainthood...

BigGeordie
1st Aug 2015, 12:40
By the time the chickens come home to roost STC and TCAS will be long gone- they hope. Tarnished legacy? As long as they retire with enough in the bank to live happily ever after I really don't think they care.

keepitrealok
1st Aug 2015, 13:47
Don't judge anyone for their decision to apply and maybe join Emirates. Everyone has a different situation in life, and for some, despite the very accurate comments posted here, unfortunately EK may be their best option.

Those who are considering joining have a read of, and then ponder the following. Every EK pilot understands this only too well, and if you apply and join, you will gain a new appreciation for the words you probably don't have now. This more than anything is probably why a large number of pilots and cabin crew are planning their exit or have already left:

"The key question to keep asking is, Are you spending your time on the right things? Because time is all you have." Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture.

migair54
1st Aug 2015, 16:12
Hi guys.

I have read a lot about EK and the problems but as KEEPITREALOK said some of us are in worse places and with worse conditions, so EK is better and it will be an improvement.

Also if pilot sin EK are flying so much, it should be great for you if many of us join the airline, that will help to reduce the workload, or it should be.

The future for airlines is becoming complicated because the pilot shortage is a fact and airlines around the world will have serious issues and this is a clear movement to start preparing for that.

Read the article from another thread.
Are you ready to fly? Middle East needs 60,000 new pilots, says Boeing | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/are-you-ready-to-fly-middle-east-needs-60000-new-pilots)

I read some comments about pilots joining with lower minimums, and I am not agree, if the training is good pilots from turboprops and light jets can perform as good as any other pilots.

Neptune Spear
2nd Aug 2015, 06:43
Mig you are wrong are many aspects.
The company has been working us to the max for the last 12-18 months and the captains for the last 4 years. So no matter how many pilots leave or how short we are the company will only hire enough pilots to max out our rosters. They are very skilled at this.
The Traininng Dept is NOT good. It is getting better but they are there to check you and have trouble fixing problems. I can't imagine how they are going to deal with 1500 hrs TP pilots.
If you think you are in a bad place now wait to join Emirates. You correctly pointed out that's there is a world wide pilot shortage. So why join EK when there are so many better places in the world to fly for?

glofish
2nd Aug 2015, 07:59
Why does a sane person start taking drugs. There is the curiosity syndrome, but more often the prospect and false promise of feeling better with it is the main drive. Most people know that drugs are a bad fix for problems, however they can build up to the point of troubling your vision beyond the fear of addiction and self destruction. You just need something strong rigt now, you firmly believe that you will be strong enough to get away of it once you feel better.
We know the outcome of 99% of cases and even though these people often give testimony of their plight, saying they wish they'd never started, there will always be newbees who think their situation justifies the experiment and that they will be strong enough to deal with it. The others just exagerate and are too weak for this world.

EK seems to be like a drug to pilots out there who think their situation is so bad, that the big shiny jets and the fantastic provided company accomodation justify trying crap T&Cs for a while. They think they will be able to deal with no time for personal life and constant burn-out syndrome in the desert with virtually no support but constant bombardment of threats and dumb messages.

I admire you guys, Houston misses out on real astronauts!

Uplink
2nd Aug 2015, 10:37
Well get ready for it as they will start the TP guys in January. If you want to know what it's like in EK now....well in addition to the "random" drug and alcohol testing, they are now testing for anti depressants! What's that tell you.

How does Dubai work? They want to put up the price of fuel here, so are increasing it in stages. I think I am right in saying they will over the next year or so put it up by 280%. If they did that straight away then there would be too much backlash from the local populous. So their idea is to put it up monthly and review every month. For August it's 24% with a review next month. It will go up and up. People will complain and absorb it. VAT, someone said 7%, but I think it's going to be more like 20%. The country is broke, the money and income from oil is not there anymore as the oil price is bottoming out and is said to stay that way for a long time. So it's panic time with any measure possible to survive.

So how does Emirates work....exactly the same way. It chops away at the terms and conditions little by little. Someone wrote on here a catalog of what he has lost since he joined. It's actually quite staggering and very sad. I don't actually know why EK make you sign a contract as its a worthless piece of paper that is changed weekly.

One of my colleagues always told me to pay attention to the emails posted that change the Employee handbook. I do now and am shocked to see what is being changed in the background that most of us don't pay attention to. Seen the leave entry now? Makes for interesting reading that doesn't really manifest itself until someone finally spots it. They have moved the threshold for leave to fit the fiscal year now. They also mention that carrying forward leave is now only valid for one year after. It then disappears and you will not be paid. Look also at their wording for when you can take leave. Well basically they tell you!

I am staggered at what has been taken away from us over the past 10 years. It started even way before then if you ask the senior guys. There are many to blame but the same names always are manifesting themselves. I am hearing they are soon to announce the retirement or departure of the poison dwarf. Can't wait. But I'm sure in true style we will get someone equally as unpalatable.

Like the fuel and VAT in Dubai, EK will continue to just chip away. No one will accept responsibility for the mass exedos so a scapegoat will be found. The problem in their eyes will have then been fixed.

When we start the career of aviation, most want the biggest, fastest and shiniest jet. That's the carrot or the goal. That's what EK are monopolising on right now. The wise realise that enough is enough. The inexperienced have a morbid curiosity about them. 1500 hours and an ATPL...in truth who wouldn't be tempted. It's really like being shot at for the first time. Hugely exciting with massive kicks of adrenalin, like a drug. Is it really that frightening or bad. The first time is a wow factor unsurpassed by anything you would ever have experienced. Then the realisation kicks in that perhaps the veterans were telling the truth. It's bloody frightening and has perhaps not been the best idea.

For a TP guy to join, well done you have achieved a major step and secured your dream. Your family are hugely proud of what you have achieved. A year down the line when you see more inside the workings of what you have signed up for, you realise what all the moaning, whinging and complaining was about. You then join the ranks on here and put your two cents in.

The company are wanting to survive and make lots of money. They wheels have fallen off to coin a much said phrase. They will now try anything to survive, and I mean anything. It will get a lot worse believe me......

SOPS
2nd Aug 2015, 10:52
Excellent post Uplink. However, people won't listen to you, they won't realise you were correct until about a year or 2 after they arrive.

dboy
2nd Aug 2015, 11:44
Well, if i read all this, my mind says not to be obstinate and listen for once. And yes having no atpl licence is a blessing now i guess. How can people live like this in such a slavery country? I am not going to leave my current job for a job like this. I still want to have a life aside aviation, which i more or less have. I hope for you guys to get out asap and going back HOME and enjoy other things of life.

Good luck. :ok:

donpizmeov
2nd Aug 2015, 12:38
Neptune,
The airbus guys started flying max hours in 2003 when the 345 arrived. This is also when we received a major pay cut, when they lowered the productivity threshold, but stopped giving credit for anything not related to sitting in the seat. We hired DEC back then as well. They started screwing with our leave then as well. Two of my mates were forced to move from their villas back then. So has anything really changed?
So the advice you are giving, is the same advice we have been giving from back then. But you still joined. It's only now that it's happening to you that you pay attention. Pretty much sums up shiny jet syndrome.

Neptune Spear
2nd Aug 2015, 14:01
Don when I joined I did do due dillegence contrary to what you wrote. At the time 777 FOs were "only" flying 65-77 hours a month spending on who you talked to and no one was not getting their leave. If they weren't I didn't talk to them and it wasn't posted on pprune that I saw.
I was looking in 2011-12 not 2003. That is my reference. Was it bad when i was looking, maybe. But it was probably worse for the captains than the FOs.
The difference is when i don't like something I do something about it. We all know Emirates is not a good airline and it is only going to get worse for sure. So why stick around?
Was EK as bad 3 yrs ago as it is today? If it only is gong to get worse at Emirates and if tomorrow is going to be worse than today why stick around or why join? There are so many good options out there.

nolimitholdem
2nd Aug 2015, 14:06
Cry us all a river, don. Be happy that "your" issues are now everyone's.

Yay! Right?

But the difference is, of the people who joined in spite of your infinite wisdom in the early 2000's, many still did very well. Long hours on your fleet, forced relocations may have been around - but so were quick commands and decent rosters back then and for quite a few years after that.

Now? Not so much. Talk to anyone and the honeymoon period is shorter and shorter - FO resignations outpacing captains for a start. 2015 is not 2003, now matter how you want to spin it for your "I told you so" moment. Those joining now are joining a completely different animal.

striker26
3rd Aug 2015, 01:51
Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/pilot-workload-at-emirates-under-question-1428587945)

According to current and former pilots, Emirates, the world’s largest airline by international traffic, underreports time on duty to the aviation regulator in the United Arab Emirates, meaning pilots at times exceed daily-duty limits that exist to protect their health and the safety of flights.


i think its safe to say hopefully something will be done about this...tough times right now but i think the future is bright, at least its out there now!

Wizofoz
3rd Aug 2015, 06:20
The WSJ article-

By
Rory Jones

April 9, 2015 9:59 a.m. ET

Let's see- April, May, June, July August.....

Nope- don't think it had much impact (apart from losing the "Timeline" , which is a pain in the asre.)

Mach_Krit
3rd Aug 2015, 06:22
Old news striker...nothing has changed...apart from that notorious briefing timeline. As many have said,its going to get a lot worse.

Mach_Krit
3rd Aug 2015, 06:23
Wiz beat me too it😊

GoreTex
3rd Aug 2015, 13:00
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/224733-wall-street-journal-expat-pilots-including-ek.html

good old Brian, I wonder if he is still in the pit?

Pulkdahulk
4th Aug 2015, 02:18
So the TP guys are being called, will they consider guys with time on 757s with about 1500 hrs on it and tt about 2200, ATPL and ICAO 6 ?

Am NOT Sure
4th Aug 2015, 06:43
Pulk

You have not only proven clueless so far but intelligently deficient too

fatbus
4th Aug 2015, 07:10
Pulk , depends on a few other things . Such as operator, nationality , LHS/RHS , country of licence . Oh and one more thing , education.

dboy
4th Aug 2015, 08:10
Funny, i got today an email from recruitement stating their requirements have been changed. I was really amused with the following sentence: "You could be living in dynamic Dubai, enjoying a sunny lifestyle while earning a tax-free salary ....." :D

glofish
4th Aug 2015, 09:25
I don't know why you were amused.

Dubai is dynamic and you can enjoy a sunny lifestyle.
No surprise there.

Whereas the tax free myth is a blunt lie.
Nothing to be amused by that. Get used to be lied to day in, day out.

Pulkdahulk
4th Aug 2015, 09:41
lol, thank you am not sure 😝😝😝

Yes Fatbus - thank you will send you a PM soon.

Primary Governor
4th Aug 2015, 14:17
Are there ANY positives at EK nowadays?!

I created a profile a few years ago for a laugh despite being nowhere near the minimum requirements.

On Monday last I got the email from EK asking me to update my profile then email them back if I was still interested in a FO position with them!

I've about 1550hrs TT on TPs even lighter than ATRs/Dash 8s :eek:

Desperation it seems indeed!

migair54
4th Aug 2015, 17:09
Hi Primary Governor, I also got an email from EK telling me to update my profile and send an email to a specific email stating my interest in joining Emirates and the position.

6000 hours on ATR, Training Captain.

I think we are all getting the same email, has anyone got an invitation for the interview??

VLS with ice
4th Aug 2015, 17:16
PG,

To answer your first question: No, not really (been here +10y)

By all means, come and do the interview, but make sure you talk to some line guys while you are here. Recruitment will blow sunshine up your backside like you've never felt before.

It could be a great option for you to consider, just don't be surprised when we have to say "told you so" in a few years.

VLS

Primary Governor
4th Aug 2015, 17:40
Yes it was a generic email for sure.

To be honest having read all here and spoken to a few people I know thereI don't think I would consider it. It sounds fairly miserable.

Of course when I embarked on my training I would have hoped/envisaged to operate for an airline on equipment such as an A330 or 777 but not at all costs.
I've turned down a few P2F schemes already.

I've an ok life now, one month away from home on duty, then one month off (completely off) at home.
Good money but no stability/career advancement really.

In the unlikely event I get called for the assessments/interview and get offered a place on the 332 for example; and I chose to remain where I am, in the RHS of a B1900D :eek: then the career/industry is truly hopeless!

Flyboy_SG
4th Aug 2015, 18:01
Be with them for 5 years PG,(or get the rating, make 1000,pay them and leave in between) right seat of a B1900 to A330 is too good to believe. It's a good opportunity. Fortunately we jet drivers have some options at the moment. It all depends how it goes with you, whether they improve or detroriate with time etc.

I personally know 2500 hrs + TP guys with no prev command exp transition to 737 LHS, few of them were excellent and some had habits like kicking excessive rudder etc. again it depends on how well a person can adopt to speed and other changes in cockpit.

It's a game of demand & supply ! Today they just need Atpl, once they needed 2500+ on aircaft more than 75T and in the far futute it might be a min of 1000hrs on type ! Who knows...

Primary Governor
4th Aug 2015, 18:06
Cheers flyboy,

I'm realistic, I know it was a generic email sent to all in their database so I don't believe they will actually look at someone with my low level of experience!

CamelRustler
4th Aug 2015, 18:15
It could be good. But it's not. Very little would have to happen to fix it, and a large portion is cost neutral to them. Part of the frustration. IF you do get offered the 777 ask them to etch the offer into a 5 kg gold bar that you will return to them after completing the 777 course.
One of their biggest issues at EK is promising you the 777 or 380 then switching you to the 330 a day or two into the welcome course. And surprise they have the 330 sims and instructors waiting for you! I have flown with many FO's that this has happened to. Some very recently. Emirates knows you don't have a job to go back to so they figure you are stuck. Personally, I would accept nothing but the 777. If you get the 330 you will be here as an FO till the fleet dies in 3-4 years then you will be moved over to the 380. However, once on the 380 ALL the Captain slots will have been filled or spoken for and you will be a career FO with a very interesting type rating. Best to look for smoother waters. It's gonna be a rough ride here for the foreseeable future. Love your schedule! I would stay put!
Your other option is to do it for 18 months then take your new type and go.

Slaveaway
4th Aug 2015, 18:24
Would I be considered competitive with 2300 hours total 700 hours pic in a 1900 and 300 hours in a E175?

striker26
4th Aug 2015, 18:25
If you are considering the ME and Emirates (obviously the fact that we are talking about it) you could also apply with Qatar, Etihad and FlyDubai as well.....don't want to start a new debate, just saying they're all in need of pilots.

Also, think about where you would go if you did work for a couple years and left? I don't see many US or Canadian airlines hiring foreign wide body fleet FO's and i definitely would choose the ME over Asia personally.

Primary Governor
4th Aug 2015, 18:27
Thanks Rustler!

Anybody know what's the period of the bond? How much is it? Would it be difficult to leave after 18months say?

Yes, my schedule is nice and the money is good! But these reasons mean my skippers ain't going anywhere! So no chance to move to LHS on my beautiful 1900D! Which reminds me, I must mention to them that EK have lowered their FO mins to ATPL and ICAO Lvl 4+ ! That might free up a LHS for me !

Anyway, I really I don't think I'll actually have any decisions to make regarding EK! I'll keep you all posted though!

I'm off now to enjoy my remaining 2.5 weeks off at home :ok:

vfenext
4th Aug 2015, 18:34
If you get the 330 you will be here as an FO till the fleet dies in 3-4 years
330/340 is slated to be gone end of 2016 with possibly one 340 still flying up to Jan 2017. Even of the plan doesn't go as advertised they won't last more than 2 more years. This means if you do get offered a 330 course you will find yourself on something else within a short space of time, probably 380.

Flyboy_SG
4th Aug 2015, 18:40
5 years 42,000 $

Flyboy_SG
4th Aug 2015, 18:44
We airline pilots don't know what is it like to have 30 days on and off...
I get 28d a year :ugh:

CamelRustler
4th Aug 2015, 18:46
VFE- Yes, you are correct. But unless you are a betting man I wouldn't come to the 330. Remember the 310? Also, I am not sure if all the Captain spots would be taken if you were at the bottom of the pile on the 380 in two years, but my guess is you would have missed the boat maybe not. Someone want to do the math?


Gov- I have not heard of anyone getting dinged for stepping out early. That absolutely does not mean it hasn't happened. Someone correct me if they have heard otherwise. Maybe they keep your retirement and last pay check, which after 18 months would not be much.


Slaveaway- If you can fog a mirror in level 4 English or better, then yes your qualified.
Come on down!

Slaveaway
4th Aug 2015, 18:52
How long after submitting the app will I get a response?

fatbus
5th Aug 2015, 01:37
Do people realize that the overall AC numbers are only going to increase by 30-50 over the next 10 years.

TPD111
5th Aug 2015, 06:19
5 Years & 42K for a bond is ludicrous! No wonder they are desperate

bigdaviet
5th Aug 2015, 10:53
I think EK could be a good option for people on turboprops depending on their circumstances.

Even if they're not happy in EK they will have jet experience and could go back to low cost jet jobs in Europe or Asia. That could still be better than where some are right now and you'll have seen a bit of the world on your 24hour layovers. Maybe pulled a load of cabin crew in the process if thats your thing?!

Needless to say the A330 would be the worst case scenario. EK reserves the right to put you on that type even if you're employed as a 380 or 777 FO. But it is a useful type that you can take elsewhere if you're really not happy in EK.

Don't know how much night flying guys on props will be doing. I think it fair to say you will be doing a LOT more if you join EK.

Plenty of info on all the other negatives on pprune. Plenty of info on the positives from the company.

One more thing I would say is that it is impossible to predict time to command now. It could be much quicker than you are told or it could be much longer. Reasons being...
Fleet retirement completely varies depending on what the company wants one week or the next. Retirement rate up = expansion rate down and vice versa.
Resignations up a bit and certainly looks like that will continue with current morale levels. A future exodus could lead to DEC.
EK can move people from 777 to 380 at will. This can slow down/speed up command on specific fleets.

So as I've said to many friends thinking of joining, think long and hard about all the pros and cons and decide if it is right for you personally.

arvida
5th Aug 2015, 19:18
Any chances to get a call with 1490 TT and ATPL written?

FMSPEED
5th Aug 2015, 20:54
Just a quick question.. Any chance to get called with 2200 ejet time and single engine faa atp?

AviatoR21
5th Aug 2015, 22:05
Here's an idea, put your application in and let them decide! Like anyone on here is going to know what your chances are like. Wow, scraping the bottom of the barrel it seems.

SOPS
5th Aug 2015, 23:15
Yeh, that's what I don't get. All the questions about....how long will it take to hear if I put an application in....any chance with xxxx hours....

If you are big boys, just put in an application and see what happens. But please, if you do get the job, don't come on here in 12 months complaining. You have been warned over and over again.

keepitrealok
6th Aug 2015, 04:13
5 Years & 42K for a bond is ludicrous! No wonder they are desperate

You have just been given an insight to the mindset. Absorb it.

Staff retention is now more than just a serious concern. So instead of analyzing what is the issue - pay vs cost of living, rosters, fatigue, treatment of employees to name but a few - and correcting it, what is the 'solution'? Bring out a bigger stick.

The bond was 3 years/$36k until recently. But pilots were leaving not just at the completion of their bond, but also prior to it. So the 'fix' in their mindset is to bond people for longer, for more money.

That'll work. :D

V1cutz
6th Aug 2015, 05:37
Years ago I coudn't even get a friend hired with over 5000 TT on Gulfstreams and now every single 1500 hour wonder with an ATP is suitable. Put down the beer goggles, submit the application and wait. Won't help asking us if your qualifications are competitive or not, nor do most of us care. We are to busy filling out our own apps to get out of here.

VeroFlyer
6th Aug 2015, 08:05
One way to solve all this nonsense...commuting or opening of crew bases in Europe/N America. Heaven forbid people would spend their hard earned cash in their own countries though!

Deep and fast
6th Aug 2015, 08:20
Despots wouldn't dream of losing control of their domain!

Monarch Man
6th Aug 2015, 08:56
One way to solve all this nonsense...commuting or opening of crew bases in Europe/N America. Heaven forbid people would spend their hard earned cash in their own countries though!

Plenty of people spend the bare minimum already in-country on the basis that if anything goes wrong, you have cash, and access to it from offshore.
Regarding EKs crewing crisis, cos that's what it is now, they would rather have guys with no jet time occupying a seat than paying for experienced operators and improving the QOL for existing crew.
It should show ANY perspective interviewees what kind of a place EK is in terms of management style and how you will be viewed/treated as an employee.

Flyboy_SG
6th Aug 2015, 09:04
I applied EK with 2500 on NG and dual ATPL(independent not converted) and had to wait 24mo to get a call....!

Flight714
6th Aug 2015, 10:09
VeroFlyer - yep, give me a London/Euro base and I'd be there in a heartbeat and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one!

Panther1984
6th Aug 2015, 10:20
Me too. A london basing with guaranteed days at home each month and I'll be interested. I don't fancy the current EK way of life!

SOPS
6th Aug 2015, 11:13
It will never happen. Never.

Sheikh-It-Easy
6th Aug 2015, 14:23
Just a few comments on hiring ATPL holders with 1500 hrs: (IMHO)

1. Won't this help FOs upgrade quicker? Isn't that a good thing?

2. I remember when I was a green turboprop pilot droning around hoping that my 2200hrs counted for something; hoping to land that dream job. Isn't this move then a good thing for them? This is 'their moment'. Let's not spoil it.

3. Okay so the jet is bigger than a Dash 8, or a DHC6; and yes they will face a few challenges along the way, but I know of at least 1 guy who went from a little turboprop to a big jet and made it without too many issues. That guy was me.

4. To those on the forum who feel it is their right to slander whomever they want; please don't slander the training department or anyone else for that matter. If you've had a bad experience, you are in the minority and your comments may not be representative of the entire pilot group. They are still our colleagues and do the best with what they have in bringing guys up to speed. The 2 stripe pilots (< 1500 hrs) that I fly with are professional, polite and knowledgable. Stick and rudder skills; pretty good considering their experience levels. No problems there.

5. Concerning the "pay rise" and "what we should have got." Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where on my signed contract (with the gold lettering), does it say that the company is obligated to give me one. I see the 'step increment' clause, I see the 'possibility' of a 'profit share', but nothing else.

I signed THAT contract knowing full well that if the company chooses not to give me pay raise for all my years of service, it would be well within their right to do so. Apart from the annual step increment, they are under no obligation contractually to raise my salary. So hearing quotes of "20-30%" is a little unrealistic, IMHO. Have they raised it over the years? Most definitely.

6. Finally to the guys who are coming with their ATPLs; I will shake your hand and welcome you. I will answer your questions if I know the answer to them, otherwise I'll refer you to the FAQs. The girls are pretty, but remember the wives and kids that you brought along with you. The best financial advice someone ever gave me is to "leave with the same wife you joined with." Better investment that gold right now... Don't get me started.

Mostly I just want to read the paper and enjoy my coffee. If I'm napping, try not request weather or the ATIS (it's automated now you know). Refer to the Notam package, avoid the red and amber returns on the weather radar, and try to avoid level changes if at all possible. Communication will be your biggest challenge; multiple cultures languages, accents. You can fly whichever sector you want, and if I need to take the landing off you because of the weather, I will. Please don't be offended.

The jets are lovely, the rosters are sometimes tough, pluses and minuses all round. No such thing as a perfect airline. If you find one, go ahead and join it; but not for me thanks. I may mess it up.

Safe travels to us all.

SiE

Sheikh-It-Easy
6th Aug 2015, 14:26
Ps. I'm not management; nor am I in training.

glofish
6th Aug 2015, 14:45
Ps. I'm not management; nor am I in training

... but just as much undesirable in the LHS if my family travels home.
What aload of cr@p, sorry.

littlejet
6th Aug 2015, 15:02
glofish please elaborate your concern

170to5
6th Aug 2015, 15:34
SIE

So much there I would take a week but I'll just stick with this:

Mostly I just want to read the paper and enjoy my coffee. If I'm napping, try not request weather or the ATIS (it's automated now you know). Refer to the Notam package, avoid the red and amber returns on the weather radar, and try to avoid level changes if at all possible. Communication will be your biggest challenge; multiple cultures languages, accents. You can fly whichever sector you want, and if I need to take the landing off you because of the weather, I will. Please don't be offended.

The jets are lovely, the rosters are sometimes tough, pluses and minuses all round. No such thing as a perfect airline. If you find one, go ahead and join it; but not for me thanks. I may mess it up.

If you're napping, then he might have to get weather and disturb you. Of course, if it's your 5th or 6th night turn in 10 days then you won't wake up with the sound of the paper ripping. You might not be able to get to sleep because it's monsoon season, or typhoon season, or the middle of summer in Africa.

Read the NOTAM pack and without experience, you will believe what you're reading. Of course, for most of the stations we go to, the NOTAMs are written with the express intent of being confusing because the airport is seen as being more important if it has 8 (or was it 9?) pages of NOTAMs, most of which are in fact wrong and out of date. With experience, you will learn that there is a way of reading NOTAMs around these parts that will open your eyes to what you're really about to fly towards at 550mph. And you might need to know exactly what you're doing, because the skipper might be using most of his energy trying to stay awake. Try doing that when you have 500 hours.

Avoid the red and amber returns. How about when you can't, because it's monsoon season or you're on the RNAV for 07R in Addis and there's a f**king huge CB everywhere you go? If your skipper is asleep while you're in the cruise, how about the experience you don't have as a low hours joiner that tells you how useless the weather radar is, and that experience you lack that will make you avoid the 'just' green bit on a black night because you know from experience that it shouldn't be green?

Communication will NOT be your biggest challenge. Communication is just one of your many, many challenges in the following destinations:

- Mumbai
- Delhi
- Peshawar
- Sialkot
- Madinah
- Addis
- Harare and Lusaka
- Khartoum
- Nairobi
- Tehran
- Cochin

To name but a few, most of which will, if they are not already, be winging their way to a T7 strapped to you in the near future. Flying into all of those throws up challenges way, way more advanced than anything you could see in an entire career in a Euro/US regional/LCC - where mistakes will be handled sympathetically (of course, whether they should be or not is your opinion) and there are most likely far fewer restrictions on how you are permitted to operate the aeroplane.

I'm pretty sure that flying a 380 into PEK, JFK etc has challenges at least as significant as communication. But at least you're not being turned over by the wake your're leaving for the guys behind you!

You probably will have to take landings off guys, but those landings and the ones they are not permitted to carry out limits their exposure and as such leads them down the path to command without giving them suitable opportunity to hone their skills. A challenge to manage in a big airline, but I'm pretty sure there is a better way than our way. Perhaps by letting 3 stripers do 20Kt crosswind landings for example?

The rosters are sometimes tough?! I've been having a look at rosters and unless you're on the 380 then the rosters SUCK! You're either in the aeroplane every hour of your life (and are credited with half that) or you fly less but every single one of your 10 or 11 trips are night turns and you spends your wonderful 18 non-flying (not XX!) days zombified because you can't remember if normal people are supposed to sleep during the night or the day. That wasn't in the contract and the company gives new joiners the impression that it isn't the case. That is plain wrong.

But you are right on one thing, there is no such thing as a perfect airline. Most guys who have read you post, however, would probably argue that some airlines are a damn sight closer to it than others.

And the jets aren't all lovely...

donpizmeov
6th Aug 2015, 16:45
170 to 5,

You mean they might will have something to learn just like you did two years ago? :ugh:

No difference to a turbo prop fella to a 2000hr jet wonder kid. Apart from maybe his first job didn't cost as much if he was Euro based.

glofish
6th Aug 2015, 16:46
OK then, i'll explain:

1. Won't this help FOs upgrade quicker? Isn't that a good thing?

Not always. If the future 1500h guy upgrades after 4 years, then flies with a 250h ab initio cadet, we will travel on very thin experience on heavy equipment in a very demanding environment.
Basically this is a rather silly rhetorical question!

2. I remember when I was a green turboprop pilot droning around hoping that my 2200hrs counted for something; hoping to land that dream job. Isn't this move then a good thing for them? This is 'their moment'. Let's not spoil it.
As I stated some pages above, it might be so, in a sane environment with adapted training. However with what exists here at EK it spoils ‘our moment’ for the ones who have to deal with very reduced experience on line. At least let me the freedom to criticise that, Sir!

3. Okay so the jet is bigger than a Dash 8, or a DHC6; and yes they will face a few challenges along the way, but I know of at least 1 guy who went from a little turboprop to a big jet and made it without too many issues. That guy was me.

Just one paragraph below you tell us not to do something because any personal experience is a minority experience, thus not representative, thus to shut up. Nevertheless you adopt it right here to try to prove something …… so much for consistency.


4. To those on the forum who feel it is their right to slander whomever they want; please don't slander the training department or anyone else for that matter. If you've had a bad experience, you are in the minority and your comments may not be representative of the entire pilot group. They are still our colleagues and do the best with what they have in bringing guys up to speed. The 2 stripe pilots (< 1500 hrs) that I fly with are professional, polite and knowledgable. Stick and rudder skills; pretty good considering their experience levels. No problems there.

Even being our colleagues, it can’t shield them from criticism. If our trainers are often too young (in experience) or too … you know what … to realize that they should not be in training, fact is that the syllabus is not adapted for pilots of that little experience and it is not going to change. So allow us to criticise, please Sir!
Stick and rudder skills 'good enough considering previous experience' is simply not enough and not what I would expect in the RHS with a T7 or 380. Accepting that is imho not very professional and does not help our cause.

5. Concerning the "pay rise" and "what we should have got." Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where on my signed contract (with the gold lettering), does it say that the company is obligated to give me one. I see the 'step increment' clause, I see the 'possibility' of a 'profit share', but nothing else.

As we are a government entity, the company is synonymous to the government. Applying your logic, the company/gvt is just as little obliged to increase the price of fuel, schooling and so forth. It is simply a matter of a national morale to attempt to balance income and expenses, and this is accepted worldwide, across almost all cultures, at least the civilized ones.
No contract covers that, again making this argument futile.

For the rest of this ‘contribution’ there is no need to elaborate.

170to5
6th Aug 2015, 16:52
don

Yep, like you did when you joined (although we both had more than 1500 hours when we arrived).

I would argue, though, that for identical experience levels, having a jet rating might be a very useful advantage...unless you are trying to compare a 2000 hour 320 F/O to a 6/7000 hour Dash 8 skipper? That seems a bit unfair, doesn't it? Besides, the jet F/O has probably managed 400 or 500 sectors each year, in much the same sh*t weather as his TP mate in his first 3 years on the job. My issue is with lack of experience, not weight restrictions, that's why I didn't mention anything about them in that post there.

Nor did I make any mention whatsoever of TP or Jet experience in my post :rolleyes:

(And there are still some airlines that don't charge you for TR's, by the way)

Sheikh-It-Easy
6th Aug 2015, 18:34
Glowworm, What do you think the success rate of the National Cadet program is? If a guy staring from zero, does fine, then surely a guy with 1500 would do better? Just thinking logically.

Upgrade time is around 6, 7k, I can't remember. So, 5 years in the right seat flying the network would be enough time to consolidate IMHO. Just saying...

EK is NOT a govt. airline (in the strictest sense of the term) and her employees are not govt. employees. A little research will reveal the facts. I though you were joking and after reading how serious you were, I had to stifle the laugh.

In an ideal world, lots of experience is great in both seats, but the industry is cyclical. We may for a while have lots of experience and a lack of jobs. Now we have a market where there are more jobs going around and not a lot of experience. The market is dictating things here, not the airlines.

Throwing money at the problem may have helped, I don't know. Way above my pay grade. But considering UAE revenues being down, the price of oil is $47 a barrel, subsidies on fuel are history, strong U.S. dollar, FED Rates rise on the horizon, most airlines would exercise caution, and conduct a risk evaluation. Nice thinking.

The risk factor in low time guys is already tried and tested with the cadet program, plus me, that 1 guy remember? Like I said earlier; if through the years we have had success with 0 time guys, then surely guys with 1500 hours would be a safe bet. I don't know why we didn't do this sooner.

Listen Glofish, I like you. I admire your spirit and concern for your family but maybe you're taking this all way too seriously. Rest assured, you'll be in safe hands with a 2 striper or someone with 1500hrs. Just 1 tip though considering your concern for the lack of experience; maybe before you send them on holidays next time, check if you have a 2 striper on board and if so, just to be safe, send them on the next flight. This, to be consistent. There's a French word for that... Never mind.

Airlines these days are masters at managing risk. Let the managers manage; you and I just fly the nice big jets. Just offering a humble assessment based on what I have witnessed. But then again, my opinion doesn't count... And to be honest, that's fine by me. Where's that Gulf news again?

Safe travels to us all.

SiE

bigmountain
6th Aug 2015, 18:40
Lets look at it at both sides of the coin.

When Emirates commenced operations with its own aircraft , they decided to break from the norm of limiting themselves to just taking British, Australians, Canadians , License Holders. Previously these Pilots had the monopoly in airlines like , Gulf air ,Air Brunei , Kuwait airways and Far East Carriers. A lot of "ho ha" was raised about compromising on safety standards and sops etc .
Fast forward 30 years and 'touch wood" , EK is now a case study on how an airline with such a large mix of nationalities and pilots licences have managed to maintain an enviable safety record. Mind you there have been some close calls, yet it is due to the crews professionalism and situational awareness of the crew that saved the day. Lessons have been learned
We have then had another "hue and cry" about various professionals from the southern hemisphere and lack of standards and professionalism. Yet Emirates inducted the best of those and they have proved to be an asset . Some who have gone on to join the Training and Audit departments and applied them selves well.
Again we now are hearing further rumblings of "lowering of standards " and lack of experience of turbo prop pilots etc. I would tend to disagree. Emirates has a history of employing pilots who have had no airline experience,only single pilot jet experience , turbo prop military experience, military jet experience ( with no glass cockpit 707 /AWAC) experience , and also regional jet ( commuter ) experience. All of these entries have successfully gone through a rigorous selection process and online training experience prior to release. Emirates already has a well embedded Cadet Training program and a Limited experience training program. I'm confident that the Training program can be adjusted to meet the requirement of Turbo Prop induction to Emirates .
Lets not underestimate the Turbo Prop pilot. Most turbo prop aircrafts are now glass cockpit and a capable of flying P-RNAV Dep and approaches and are frequently required to fly into airports with LOW vis operations. Combined with that ,Turbo prop pilots frequently fly into more challenging destinations with little or no facilities and are often left to fend for themselves. The Challenge for Emirates is to groom these candidates to quickly assimilate themselves into EK world wide ops of SAT Phones , ACARS and Checking back with Network control , while employing a decision making model that has an awareness not only on safety , but on operational efficiency and the impact on whole operation of the Emirates Network when one aircraft comes off the network.

So yes I'm sure those who have some misgivings about turbo prop pilots are somewhat correct if they were talking of some other airline. However this has to be taken in context with the relative demand and supply of the market and Emirates experience with inducting and training low time and limited experience pilots .With the current time to move from left to right increasing from the 4 -5 +years ,gives sufficient opportunity for the Turbo Prop Pilots to learn and prepare themselves for the challenging role of a Commanding an Emirates aircraft

So to Recap : Lets not short change our Turbo prop pilots. Emirates will still follow a strict interview process. They will have a modified training program .Their progress will be monitored and future inductions will be fine tuned. With over 120 odd destinations ( Polar Routes, Atlantic Crossings , Far East, Africa , South America Europe, Asia and the Middle East) and counting and right hand experience of 4-5 years on type ( 3500-4000hrs) before getting command should be more than sufficient preparation for them to take up the challenge for the Left seat

BM

arvida
6th Aug 2015, 22:09
In the application form they ask (mandatory) for ``Date of last Pilot Proficiency Check``.

I don't have any PPC because I fly a privately owned aircraft. What do you do in this situation?

thanx

Togue
6th Aug 2015, 23:32
arvida,

If you have applied it means you have jet aircraft experience. Then for sure you have to go for recurrent training based on your kind of operation.

Jumbo744
7th Aug 2015, 01:48
It's been a while since I've participated in a Pprune thread. I stopped reading this one at Page 3.

120feet
You have a TP guy with 2000 hours sitting next to you over deepest darkest Africa, in an airplane that may be 100 times heavier, fly 3 times faster and take 10 times the runway to stop then what he just stepped out of, and facing weather he has never seen. As a TP he will have very little to offer except SOP regurgitation, which will get you through 95% of it.

I've flown turboprops (B1900D/B200) for the last 3 years, at night 70% of the time, over deepest darkest Africa, avoiding massive thunderstorms at 25,000ft. So what?

Opposite example I have for you: We had hired a 8000h B737NG pilot in our company and we had to get rid of him as he had too many issues flying the B1900D!

If a lot of companies hire cadets with a CPL and 250hTT, and put them directly on a A320, why wouldn't a turboprop pilot be a good hire? It's all about Training, Attitude and then Experience!

fliion
7th Aug 2015, 02:48
Jumbo

Emirates philosophy and those of us who came when the MINIMUM was 4000 hrs - was we can 'train' an 'experienced' pilot with the right 'attitude'. Your philosophy slightly different.

As Oscar Wilde said:
"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes"

You see making a mistake with 19 people on board is different than with 500.

Ones a footnote, the other a headline.

Give it a decade or two...you will come around.

I'm posting less and less on here ..I expect that trend will continue.
I don't recognize the n/hood anymore...eyebrows raising every time I log on - so many young 'uns with all the answers. What do I know - I'm an old fart now to some of the gel heads in the RHS.

But I can't help but wonder as I look at the top floors of HQ;
"For goodeness sake stop this"
An incredible airline is becoming a great big exodus for some of the finest and most experienced long haul airline pilots on the planet....

...and an entry point for the polar opposite.

There will be tears.

f.

Sheikh-It-Easy
7th Aug 2015, 04:39
Big Mountain gets ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ for his post. The entry requirements have changed and are here to stay. The training program I'm sure will be amended for them as it is for the cadets in order to bring them up to speed.

cerbus
7th Aug 2015, 05:07
Sheik you say if an airline can take a zero time cadet it surly can take a 1500 tp pilot. Maybe it can with a good and long training program.
However I'll point out to the lesser informed the National Cadets receive years of sectors and training that would be cost prohibited to a non UAE citizen. Cadets receive somewhere around 60 sectors just in the jump seat, then 80 non flying sectors and another 120 sectors were they alternate between FP and PM. Those numbers are ball parked but my point is obvious to all with a brain that is just unstainable to any airline unless it was paid for by someone else, in this case the DXB Governement.
If EK paid a descent wage and treated us fairly they would not have to lower their standards and we would all be happy.

fatbus
7th Aug 2015, 05:14
A mistake is a mistake . Problem is the 2000 hr 320 FO never had to deal with his mistake , the 2000 hr TP Captain did.

adolf hucker
7th Aug 2015, 06:54
Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Flying a T7 through a bit of weather to another ILS is not rocket science. I know because I came from a 73 to do it in EK and am now, thankfully, back in civilisation enjoying a more humane work schedule. Much as it offends your over-inflated wide-body egos, I'm sure a competent TP guy will cope with the challenge despite the sub-optimal training, just like the lo-co guys did before them. Not good for the long-haul sky god myth, I know.

Iznogood
7th Aug 2015, 08:10
Stop worrying about the TP guys. Lowered requirements doesn't mean that they will hire the first one who will show up. In my opinion it's even a smart strategy from EK because now they have a bunch of new profile and won't miss some good guys who have high potential but doesn't have the famous 2k hours jet time.
Remember, younger you are higher is your willingness to learn.
Off course they have to adapt the assessment and training policy with regard to this new parameter....however I don't have any doubt about that.
Is that enough to solve all the problem quoted here about EK working conditions? I'm not sure but anyway I hope for joining guys that it is just the first step. Anyway they have to find a sustainable solution with this massive resignation...and they will do because they don't have any choice.
All the bets guys!

SOPS
7th Aug 2015, 08:24
Just my opinion, and I hope I am wrong, but I think, if you are expecting them to change the training for TP guys, then think again.

Why? Because increasing the training cost $$$$, and that has to come out of someone's bonus.

And the chasing of bonuses is how EK got themselves into this mess in the first place.

vfenext
7th Aug 2015, 09:34
The TP guys will have a modified training schedule with additional sessions/sectors as per recent washup. SOPS you're up to an average of 5 posts a day, don't you have anything better to do with your retirement?

ruserious
7th Aug 2015, 09:36
What he said, spot on SOPS

Iznogood
7th Aug 2015, 09:37
How much is the maximum post allowed over here per day guys? :)
Take it easy! It is all about sharing thought and experience.

fringhtok
7th Aug 2015, 09:51
Why do so many of you insist on attacking fellow pilots? Many TP guys will undoubtedly apply. Some will be accepted, many will not. Of those hired, most will will get through, some will not. On line, most will be good guys, some will not. Just like everyone else.

The real issue is the f*@king company. Too many guys are leaving. Why? Because of constantly deteriorating pay and unbelievable working conditions. Too few guys are joining. Why? Same reasons as above. Despite this, the company keeps growing and needing more pilots. What's the answer? Pay pilots better and improve working conditions and QOL? Of course not. That's not how we do things here. Instead, we'll cast our net even wider in order to get the numbers we need. Meanwhile attrition continues and will likely increase. The entry requirements can not be reduced any lower. So, what's next? There's only one lever left to pull and I suspect it will come sooner rather than later. :O:(

flareflyer
7th Aug 2015, 10:00
And that would be???

V1cutz
7th Aug 2015, 10:24
And don't you have better things to do than monitor how many posts one puts up in one day? Just saying..

777boyo
7th Aug 2015, 10:48
Way back in 1989 Gulf Air was short of pilots and hired about 8 expat,relatively high time turbo-prop pilots as 737 Second Officers, bonded for five years. Half the costs of training on the 737 were to be recovered by salary deduction over the five years. F/O status came at the end of some fairly rigorous sim and line training - about 12 sim sessions followed by some 85 or so sectors interspersed with more sim sessions - which followed closely the progression of the EK Cadets in terms of handling below 10000', safety pilot cover, take offs and landings etc. With one exception (who baled out to pursue a different career in running a very successful bar in Bahrain), all were successful, and after about two years on the 737, moved on to the 767 and long haul destinations in Europe, Asia and, yes, Darkest Africa A sensible progression. All subsequently became long haul wide body Captains (not necessarily in GF), and a few are still flying for various Royal Flights around the Gulf. None, as far as I am aware, had any untoward incidents.

It can be done, given the right training, and attitude from both sides

Just saying...to quote other posters.

7B

SOPS
7th Aug 2015, 14:06
I'm only averaging five posts a day? Im going to have to try harder!

harry the cod
7th Aug 2015, 14:40
777boyo

That's the difference I guess, no 737's to cut your teeth on during many short sectors. Sitting in the right seat on a 15hour MCO is somewhat different and hardly ideal to building confidence and experience on energy management. If the Company were to put in an hour restriction before allowing ULR's, that might help.

Perhaps a suggestion for all new TP guys to cut their teeth initially on turnarounds only....preferably night! ;)

Harry

777boyo
7th Aug 2015, 15:08
Harry,

Agreed. 6 sectors a day up and down the Gulf - yes, 6 - on a 737-200 was fantastic training, especially as two of those sectors were 8 minutes take off to touchdown and mostly hand flown at 2500'. That's one training area EK would struggle to replicate. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I joined EK and only did 4 sectors a day, the dreaded "double sector"! Having said that, we were not working as hard as I did in my last five years with EK, and had more time off.

There were rumours years ago about a deal with Oman Air for EK Cadets to fly short haul for a couple of years prior to coming back to EK wide bodies, but it came to nothing. Seem to recall some Cadets went to Fly Dubai for the same reason, and by all accounts really enjoyed the experience. Maybe there's the answer.

7B

Jumbo744
7th Aug 2015, 17:12
fliion

''You see making a mistake with 19 people on board is different than with 500.''

tell me the difference? a human life is a human life, isn't it?

''Emirates philosophy and those of us who came when the MINIMUM was 4000 hrs - was we can 'train' an 'experienced' pilot with the right 'attitude'. Your philosophy slightly different.''

Apparently their philosophy is changing. Same is for companies like Cathay, see their cadet program. If we're going to follow your philosophy to the letter, then let's close all flying schools around the world. We can't train you unless you have experience!

Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed.

This is not a question of philosophy, it's a question of supply and demand. They had the luxury to hire 4000h+ pilots cause there was so many pilots available in the market.

Any normally constituted being will do a good job with the right attitude and training.

adolph hucker, :D

Monarch Man
7th Aug 2015, 17:44
Jumbo

"Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed"

You sir are a fool if you believe that this particular accident was as simple as you portray.
I personally have no issue with experienced TP people coming onboard, as long as they are trained correctly and given the opportunity to learn.
This whole thing about standards is nonsense, this is an argument that should focus on on relevant experience.
You can't as they say put an old head on young shoulders, it's the same thing when you pair a newish skipper with a guy/girl that still hasn't had the exposure to the wide and varied threats we face day in day out. It's also a different kettle of fish managing yourself in respect of jetlag, the interaction with a variety of crew profiles and of course the management style we all know and love.
Throw in crappy weather, crappy airports, not knowing what you still don't know and we arrive at a point where potentially there is a steep cockpit gradient in terms of experience and ability, now what happens if the experienced person thanks to an unrelenting schedule, commercial and management induced stress, plus maybe a bit from home suddenly is incapable of performing their functions at a critical phase?
With the experienced jet person sat on my right I'm confident things will work out ok, I can't yet say in all honesty that the 2500hr ATR or Dash 8 person will inspire the same level of confidence. And yes before anyone asks, I certainly believe cadets fall into this inexperienced category as well.
Just my thoughts.

glofish
7th Aug 2015, 17:52
Apparently their philosophy is changing. Same is for companies like Cathay, see their cadet program. If we're going to follow your philosophy to the letter, then let's close all flying schools around the world. We can't train you unless you have experience!

This is the same old rookie whinge of those who have to sit on the bench for a halftime.
What a stupid argument! Logically we need flying schools and integrate the young to give them experience. it all goes with the syllaby and depth of training. If you really believe that at EK there will be a serious adaptation to the lower requirements, and not just a figue leaf additional sim session at most, then you should definitely fail any assessment of a airline pilot!

You guys need a huge reality check.

Tell me, would you hand over your formula1 car to a rookie who just won the cart championship? Would you let him play in midfield on a Premier league crucial match? Would you set him as second single player in the Davis Cup?
Only if you have no alternative, just like EK now. If you could and wanted to play it safe, you would go for some sort of experience and slowly integrate the rookies in lesser heat. You would also know that if not, you'd incur a bigger risk for failure and you know that in the aftermath you would have all the monday morning quarterbacks tearing you apart, and you would have lost your job. All pros involved would warn you beforehand, although they would be cried down as arrogant and feudal arrivistas that would better shut up and accept the wind of change (basically the wind of abysmal greed)

Losing a game is not really tragic, the championship a little more and in F1 there would be casualties. In aviation most probably only the latter.
The connection between lower initial requrements and insufficient training is always made in the aftermath of an accident (BAH), but very quickly forgotten by the greedy owners, the customers who want cheap flights, the bribed regulators and the eager rookies who might have heard of such catastrophies, but it would certainly never happen to them.
The warning of the old and experienced farts to them are just that: farts.

They smell and no one likes them, i know, but they are reality.

striker26
7th Aug 2015, 19:45
What a mess! Cant believe the amount of hate. Honestly, many ppl on this forum have said it before, there are always negatives and positives about everything and every airline. One thing you can do if you don't like the future at EK, is look for an opportunity with an airline that matches your preference.

Its evident the issues at EK, im sure more than most airlines nowadays but do yourself a favor and start to look for another opportunity. If you feel EK as incompetent, GCAA as incompetent, and Dubai as incompetent... the only way to react is to leave. Are you going to complain everyday now and end up retiring an EK pilot? If you're naive go ahead....i understand its not easy to, but it wasn't easy when you applied and came to Dubai either...

WHO CARES IF THEY SET THE MIN. TO 1500, ARE THEY GONNA HIRE 99 OUT OF EVERY 100 AT 1500? You're an idiot if you think so, if they do, we'll let their safety record speak, and call their HR incompetent.

Jumbo744
7th Aug 2015, 22:05
glofish, Monarch Man, you guys really make me laugh.

Have Fun :ok:

fatbus
8th Aug 2015, 02:23
I welcome the high time TP Capt over the 2500 320 wonders from just east of here.

donpizmeov
8th Aug 2015, 04:44
Monarch man,

So a 2500hr LCC FO is experienced, but a 2500hr Dash 8 pilot isn't? I cant follow your logic?

QCM
8th Aug 2015, 05:29
Was tp SF34 skipper and join as DEC on B732 all over deep dark Africa...then DEC B777 in Asia...tp is not easier...only network discovery,ATC accents are challenging ...jet acft? descent and reduce earlier....oversteer on taxi...don't overboost M1.0...

JammedStab
8th Aug 2015, 06:06
Each has their different challenges just like different areas of operations for the same aircraft type have their challenges.

I was a turboprop guy for many years on several types and then went to jets for a few years, back to turboprop and then back to jets again.

ATC accents can be challenging for TP guys in Europe just like in the big jets or even other areas where different languages are encountered. Weather issues can be much more critical and challenging to TP guys as ice can be a huge issue and storms cannot be topped or circumvented as easily.

To be honest, some of the turboprops have near as much info to learn about as the jet types and are much less advanced requiring much more hand flying. Several types I flew had no autopilot or flight director(of course that has changed). The ILS to ILS world of many jet operations is fairly straight forward compared to non-precision circling approaches in mountainous areas at night that is much more typical of the prop world. We did that and total black hole approaches with no PAPI at some locations onto not overly long landing areas.

Non-precision approach alternates were normal meaning that fog at your alternate ruined your day instead of being bailed out by doing an autoland.

9 legs a day was not rare and beats one or two landings a month for landing currency.

Losing an engine at V1 could be much more critical for the types that had no autofeather and the significant increase in drag. Losing an engine in cruise was also critical as speed decayed very rapidly while the prop windmilled. And we didn't have an automatic rudder input to help us.

glofish
8th Aug 2015, 07:20
Impressive, i would struggle, honestly.

But you are simply proving my point. Any flight operation is challenging. Any pilot has to adapt to a different one. Now having filled a sizeable backpack of experience makes adaption much easier and faster. A 1500h TPFO needs more training to adapt than a 10000 DEC.

Funny thing that the same blokes complain about having to nurse around narrow body DECs at EK with their infinitely more vast experience on worldwide WB and ULR network. They would certainly be more suited as upgraders than those pretentious skippers. Due to what, that is the question!

When confronted with a similar argument but this time working against these low hour astronauts, suddenly it should no longer apply. They would certainly be just as suited as the big hour WB worldwide experienced colleague FO. Once again: Due to what, that is the question.

We transited from piston underpowered light twins onto 82t MD80ies. I know what taking a lot of steps at a time means. I also know what training they gave us and simply compare to what is on the table today.
The two man ops over critical terrain is not a hands on exercise. I know that every FO i share the cockpit with has better stick skills than me .... But today's operation on EKs network is not easy. 95% yes, but dear colleague FOs, it's about the other 5%. And Murphy is remorseless, he will hit us when i am stuck between 350 panicking wobblers and the other FO taking a leak. That is exactly when i want some more experience, training and exposure up front. A very outspoken dude thinking his seat should be further left and pulling his stick into stall for minutes, because of being completely overwhelmed by the situation, is unfortunately a product of a might be very good aviator but with too little and inadequate training.

I am not alone in no longer trusting the local companies to assess the total risk accordingly. Too much greed and 'who cares' involved. That is the reason of our concern and criticism, not doubting of possible skill or professionalism of fellow pilots.

donpizmeov
8th Aug 2015, 07:46
I see your point Glofish. But remember this lack of pilots has been there for some time. Even with the pressure to find more warm bodies the recruiting pilots and TREs have not lowered the standard required to pass the recruiting SIM/process etc. Failure rate at recruiting is pretty large. This isn't going to change now, just as it hasn't changed in the past. Just a larger group are eligible to undergo the process.
We haven't had 10000hr pilots apply for a long time. If they do they will float to the top of the list. 1500hrs/2000hr in a multi crew multi engine aircraft are pretty much the same, be they jet or turbo prop.

SOPS
8th Aug 2015, 08:23
I have a question Don. If you put a guy into a 777 sim, that has never flown a jet, what do you assess him on? I mean flying a high performance, swept wing, wide body jet, is very different to flying a Dash 8. I'm not talking about operating it, but flying it.

I'm not trying to be funny, it is a serious question.

donpizmeov
8th Aug 2015, 08:46
You did the SIM SOPs. It's not overly demanding. A bit of attitude flying and management skills, and the ability to learn. The john deere is just an aeroplane after all.
Is it more of a jump than what the CRJ/ERJ, 146 etc fellas had to do?

SOPS
8th Aug 2015, 08:51
Ok, fair point. Anyway, time will tell I suppose.

White none please
8th Aug 2015, 08:59
As of this week... Sim passing grade, IS being reviewed.

Dropp the Pilot
8th Aug 2015, 09:12
Now that WOULD be interesting, if you know some of the individuals who have been running the interview sims. Some of these chaps have been doing that assessment for years. Wouldn't you just love to be in the room when some HR numpty explains to them why they can now lower their standards?

That would have to be a really good Powerpoint.

Praise Jebus
8th Aug 2015, 11:08
It wasn't that long ago when for a period, a candidate didn't have to pass the Sim if the rest of the assessment was ok.... Might happen again

fatbus
8th Aug 2015, 11:37
White none ,I don't believe it! There is one thing about changing the entry requirements but TC was very clear the standard will not change, but ( and it's a big one) 10 years ago interview sim average 4/5 min 3 guess where we are now. Bottom of the barrel (3). I've been involved with sim eval and know the level of candidate .

Fuel-Off
8th Aug 2015, 12:27
When I went through the recruitment process for the airline I've worked for now for the past 8 years, we were put into either a B767 or B747-300 simulator for assessment. The usual stuff, all to be flown within regulatory tolerances, hand flown, no A/P or A/T. So I was going from flying C402s and C340s to being assessed in a B743 simulator (Most of the applicants like myself only had about 1000hrs TT - all on pistons)

Managed to pass (along with a lot of other applicants), got the job with an airline that flies only a fleet of Dash 8 Classics and Q400s.

So we had to be assessed on a jet to fly a turboprop. It's all down to the aptitude of the candidate, and how reliable the training system is of the organisation.

And a bit of the good ol' Power + Attitude = Performance.

Fuel-Off :ok:

Iznogood
8th Aug 2015, 12:45
I agree with donpizmeov,
Actually the NG is easier to fly than the q400 (especially with one engine out). Except energy management and high altitude high speed flight which are a matter of adaptation, not handling. FMS, FMA are almost the same both are Cat C approach (with usually about 10-20 kts difference) both are glass cockpit.
In my opinion a normal guy with >1000 h on q400 or atr 72 600 shouldn't have any problem to fly any jet aircraft.

Monarch Man
8th Aug 2015, 17:23
Monarch man,

So a 2500hr LCC FO is experienced, but a 2500hr Dash 8 pilot isn't? I cant follow your logic?


I used the term relevant experience. 2500hrs of loco time on a minibus or 737 is more relevant, 2500hrs on a Dash or ATR is much less so. I'm not saying the TP person is a lesser mortal, far from it, hence my comments relating to training etc, I'm pointing out that I personally feel far more confident knowing the person next to me is comfortable and experienced in the general environment. When things go wrong, things like muscle memory and training come into play, it doesn't matter if it's harder to fly an ATR, what matters is that there ARE significant differences, these differences worry me if it is now considered an acceptable risk without the previous caveats of relevant training, rather than just the usual box ticking.

misd-agin
8th Aug 2015, 19:31
How about a 2500 hr 777 FO? Wouldn't he be the most qualified?

Me? I'd take the 2500 hr TP FO. Why? Stick time and landings. How many jet landings does a cadet trained 777 FO have at 2500 hrs? 100? 125?

How many landings does this hypothetical A320 with 2500 hrs have? 350?

How many landings does the TP FO have? 700?

Alex - for $500 I'll take the guy with 700 landings.

Turbokite
8th Aug 2015, 19:54
Disclaimer, i'm not an EK driver. So i got no dog in this fight.

@Misd Again, the 777 FO might have less landings, but they are actually on a T7, and he has already proven that he can actually fly the aircraft. If he has the aptitude then all he has to do is adopt to the EK way of operation.

If two candidates meet the min. requirements set at the time, then i think what sets them apart is not necessarily the aircraft they were on before, rather their aptitude and ability to adopt to their new role.

dream747
9th Aug 2015, 01:41
Why don't you consider a Cessna pilot who's been doing circuits for 20 years? He'll probably have many more landings than anyone else.

Luke SkyToddler
9th Aug 2015, 03:55
You guys are all still missing the point

It's not about the aircraft the guy has previously flown, it's about the overall quality of the candidate and the quality of his previous airline background.

I know a couple of ATR and Dash-8 instructor/examiners from Air NZ and Virgin Australia who are probably going to apply for this. Captains with extensive backgrounds in CRM training, sim checking, safety investigations, writing of ops manuals etc, guys who live and breathe aviation.

These guys have been performing at the highest level, in airlines with some of the highest expectations and operating standards on earth. They have 10,000ish hours, most of it command time, they're still in their 30s or early 40s.

When you have your captain incapacitation event, would you seriously rather have that guy sitting next to you? Or some wet behind the ears rich kid from you-know-where, who left school, faked his licence and logbook, and then bought 1500 hours of A320/B737 time with daddy's money from some shonky third world Indo or Thai outfit? And has learned nothing in that time except how to say "yes captain", move the flap lever, fake a load sheet, and ignore an MEL, and has never made a command decision in his life?

Yes of course there are some useless turboprop pilots out there also. Yes of course the "most" preferred option is good and highly experienced jet pilots. I don't disagree with either of those facts. It's the job of your interview and sim screening guys to sort out the good guys from the muppets though isn't it.

But seriously some of you sky gods need to climb down from your "jet" high horses, and look at the big picture of overall candidate quality.

fatbus
9th Aug 2015, 04:36
Well said!

Monarch Man
9th Aug 2015, 05:12
Luke, I'm not missing the point, you and I are talking about the same thing, it's why I prefaced my initial comments by speaking about the quality of candidate.
What you are missing is that from the perspective of the EK training machine, previous experience, qualifications, hours etc etc etc matter not, you are treated as an unknowing Luddite. Hence the need for relevant training, it doesn't matter to EK if these guys can write an ops manual, train CRM or live an breathe aviation, they will be low seniority F/O's who when they want their opinion it will be given to them, that's the EK checking department which BTW is slowly reversing all the positive gains it has made in recent years.
As to my comments relating to who I would prefer sat next to me when the proverbial hits the fan? someone who is comfortable in the environment, that comfort level comes from being trained correctly, based on what I see that won't happen.
For context Luke, my previous employer took many many 2-3-4-5-6000 HR TP guys and plonked them in the right seat of a 757 or 320, I trained a lot of them and it was recognised by those far more enlightened than me that the conversion and line training needed to be tailored a bit more, that won't happen at EK with its cookie cutter approach, and so I will be left to pick up the slack, probably at 3am during the monsoon somewhere.

CaptainChipotle
9th Aug 2015, 05:41
If I may...

I think we've beaten the "experience" horse to death. An individual is just that, an individual. At my previous outfit we had ab-initio guys flying a jet with 250hrs. Some were good(enough to get by) and some were phenomenal operators. There is a point where we blossom as aviators and become who we will be. At times we are humbled and we are ALWAYS learning from our mistakes and the mistakes of our colleagues.

I think the real point is this: we've all worked really hard to get to the point in our career where we are wide body Captains or FO's. It's taken myself and my colleagues years of instructing, crappy low cost airline flying, long hours, low pay, and now we've made it to the big leagues. Except there is one problem, our T and C keep dropping and keep dropping. We are now overworked and highly underpaid and not respected from our company. Bringing in 1500hr guys (regardless of experience) will be thrilled to fly big jets on long haul routes, stay in lavish hotels, and work with a planeful of young cabin crew... ...it's a big carrot to dangle. They haven't worked as hard or as long as we have to get to this position and it bothers many people. They won't "know" how they deserve to be treated because they haven't dealt with the amount of sh1t we had to deal with to get this far. And the only reason we dealt with all that sh1t at previous companies was that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. One day we will make it to an airline that values us, pays us, and treats us well!

It's our job as current crew to educate them on how they deserve to be treated and that they need not be pushed around by management. Our current conditions are unacceptable and the rest of the "sky gods" would agree. If you don't think every captain you flew with when you were low time taught you something(positive or negative) then think again. Even as a Captain I'm still learning, and that won't stop until I quit breathing.

If 1500 TP guys stepped onto property and demanded to only fly 75-80hrs/month, expected more pay and more days off I think we would all be singing a different tune. Just my thoughts

Safe flying to all.

CC

jack schidt
9th Aug 2015, 06:18
The TP guys will be welcome to share the workload in EK, simple.

As to their professionalism as a pilot, no different than any EK pilot.

As to the experience of an EK pilot. All EK pilots prior to joining had Jet time, Wide body time (perhaps), Global route experience (likely), a proven ability to adapat for the EK mould to fly jets on global/international routes.

As to the experience of the TP pilot. These guys are often going to be younger in their career than the previous EK applicant and might be more adaptable than the pilots who came to EK with jet time who were possibly older. The TP guys will have a beyond vertical learning curve as they will have to learn the "Jet" way of flying, the "Global" route structures, the new Med Haul and Long Haul work regime and associated fatigue issues. Also to be learnt will be the EK way of doing things and for those going to any Airbus, sidestick handling. A tall ask YES, impossible, NO. Give these guys a break and let us see how this plays out.

The only issue for the EK guys in particular will be the fact that every flight with a new TP guy is going to be a training flight for the TPs first year or more in EK and this will mean that the EK Captain is going to have to be even more aware than normal or the 'tea and biscuits" trip is inevitable + letters + cash loss (no bonus etc or upgrade if multicrew).

Time will tell, only the results will settle this one out so lets wait and see.

J

Praise Jebus
9th Aug 2015, 07:37
They have 10,000ish hours, most of it command time, they're still in their 30s or early 40s.

If I was a recruiter I would ask "why now for jets?"

Basic Service
9th Aug 2015, 07:58
And if I was answering that question, I would say, you wanted big shiny jet time before now and anyway once you get that far up any tree it gets harder to leave.

I used to be a training Captain back in the day on a Dash ( crash ) 8... Due to a slack period in the industry I was there a few years.. So when the opportunity arose and I found myself in front of someone asking that question, I was a bit perplexed. I was prepared to take a 50% pay cut to go forward in my career and fly jets ( wow ) and this dick was implying that I must be useless as I had so much experience! Yeah, that why I was a TRE because I was useless....

Anyway, that was then and now it's a memory... TP guys and gals are easy to train, I've done a lot of jet conversions with them. They are speed aware, can land in a cross wind, ( it really isn't that different, took me two goes to nail ) they are CRM experts as they have flown with some strange types who don't want to leave, and are two crew ready.

If anyone can get through the sim etc, then it don't matter where they come from. What we need is boys and girls that have been trained well and recurented well...end of.

Praise Jebus
9th Aug 2015, 08:11
Basic I actually don't care too much where a guy comes from.TP or gliders. ...but I wouldn't suggest answering the question your way...Please come on over the weather's fine....

Basic Service
9th Aug 2015, 08:18
I answered it that way in 1997 ( tempered to make it sound better ) I'm here and will be happy to train em.....

glofish
9th Aug 2015, 09:11
The only issue for the EK guys in particular will be the fact that every flight with a new TP guy is going to be a training flight for the TPs first year or more in EK and this will mean that the EK Captain is going to have to be even more aware than normal or the 'tea and biscuits" trip is inevitable + letters + cash loss (no bonus etc or upgrade if multicrew).

Jack, you nailed it!

That is exactly what i fear. With 95 factored hours, 2 ground schools, not more than twice two days off in row, covering 18h time difference twice a month i am simply afraid of a very much bigger chance of running into some kind of trouble that would affect my carrer and my familiy's destiny.

If i thought i was that proverbial sky god as some clowns imply, i would probably think 'bring 'em on, they'll benefit of my superiour skills, blah, blah', but i do not consider myself as that. I am an average skipper who would like to finish his carreer in peace, with what has worked up to now.

I say it again: Nothing against other pilots, they are all equal (some are more equal, but that's another story ...). Most on this page agree that different backgrounds need different screening and training and there lies the Gordic knot. I no longer believe that this happens, although don managed to soothe my concern a bit. Let's hope.

But i really do share Jack's comment above

SOPS
9th Aug 2015, 09:28
I think Jack and glofish are right. I think every EK captain will become a 'training' captain wether they like it or not. And if something goes wrong.......

I can only hope Don is correct.

adolf hucker
9th Aug 2015, 11:12
It's actually the TP guys I would have sympathy with in all of this. After the elation of being selected to fly a big shiny jet in a big shiny city, they will soon be introduced to the Emirates way of training and realise that they are given precisely zero credit for the attributes on which, presumably, they were selected. Then, having passed the training, they will have the pleasure of sitting next to an individual who has been doing EK long-haul just a bit too long and is paranoid about some upstart ruining his precious track record and jeopardising the income on which he his family have become a bit too dependent.

Welcome to the EK fear culture. It does not generally make for a fun day out (although there are of course exceptions).

Clandestino
9th Aug 2015, 11:36
I mean flying a high performance, swept wing, wide body jet, is very different to flying a Dash 8.Dunno about widebodies but personally I found flying both 320 and 738 somewhat different to Q400. Quite easier, that is.

glofish
9th Aug 2015, 12:16
It's actually the TP guys I would have sympathy with in all of this.


No objection here

After the elation of being selected to fly a big shiny jet in a big shiny city, they will soon be introduced to the Emirates way of training and realise that they are given precisely zero credit for the attributes on which, presumably, they were selected.

How right you are, has always been like that

Then, having passed the training, they will have the pleasure of sitting next to an individual who has been doing EK long-haul just a bit too long

Again, you are absolutely right. We all would like to reduce hours .....

and is paranoid about some upstart ruining his precious track record

Take your sarcasm out and replace 'paranoid' with 'fearful' and you are right again

and jeopardising the income on which he his family have become a bit too dependent.

Not even funny. What family is not dependent on income? Or should each one benefit of a nice heritage? Good on yours if they do not depend 'too much' on your income. I've read better sarcasm.

Welcome to the EK fear culture. It does not generally make for a fun day out (although there are of course exceptions).

Right again

What was your point?

bunghole
9th Aug 2015, 13:35
With the revised entry requirements at Emirates I am now eligible to apply (and yes mainly TP guy). I’ve done a lot of reading on this forum and will heed the advice of the experienced guys here and avoid the place like the plague. Not that it took much convincing after a cadetship offer from CX several years ago now. Will it help your cause for better T & C’s? Well I and many others didn’t help Cx for refusing, so unlikely to change what’s coming your way, at least for the newbys. IMHO Rubbish T & C’s of airline pilots are here to stay and it is a race to the bottom in no uncertain terms. For every one of me that won’t accept what’s happening and wants no part in it there are 100 guys/gals that will for whatever reason. Airline management and the bean counters will continue to capitalise on this fact and exploit it for all it’s worth. At the end of the day it’s a business. You're just a number unfortunately.

Is a TP guy suitably qualified? Some of you guys here need to get a grip. As someone said earlier, it’s not rocket science. Right training (not checking), attitude, work ethic, etc, etc,.... In any case best of luck to all of you in what invariably sounds like a sinking ship.

misd-agin
9th Aug 2015, 15:58
If prior turboprop time didn't count about half of the US pilot corps, especially the Captains, would probably not be working at their airline.

If having time in the airplane is an absolute must no one would be qualified. How do you get job #1 if no one has flown that type airplane before?

It might be the diffference between the US and overseas POV. The major companies in the US don't care if you have time in type. They look for overall experience and background and how they rate vs their peers. Variety of experience and background (TRE/TRI/CKA/mgt vs having one or two qualifications in the last decade) counts more than time in type.

I checked my logbook - I observed landings by 57 different pilots last year. All experienced, some with years at the company and years in the airplane, and some with no time at the company or in the aircraft. Up to including having not flown for 7 years before a six week type rating course (2 wks GS, 2 wks sims -10 total, then 25 hrs IOE/LOE. Two of the three weakest had over 6000 hrs in type.

To me, in general, experience does not predict ability.

V1cutz
10th Aug 2015, 05:27
I would gladly take an experienced TP guy in the right seat with me over any, I bought my job as a babysitter in a 320/737 for 250 hours, jet guy. Some of you really do need to get off your high horse. We are all just over glorified bus drivers.

320goat
10th Aug 2015, 08:47
I for one am not a glorified bus driver. I am a professional who works hard to maintain a high level of professionalism. I try ro fly safely and efficiently and lead by example. I don't read papers or magazines in flight, I am looking at diversion airfields, pulling up plates, calculating landing performance and reading part C briefs. There are many other things we do as professionals to maintain our standards be it at home, in the briefing or on the flight; I say we because I am not unique, there are thousands like me.


Never put yourself or fellow aviators down, we have enough trouble trying to convince bean counters and management of our worth.


Back on thread...


The fact of the matter is TP or Jet it, as has been said before, depends on the individual. There are guys with from all walks of life with varying experience who are very capable and those that are not.

Dropp the Pilot
10th Aug 2015, 09:19
"calculating landing performance"? Really? I can save you a little effort : it's about 1800 meters for max manual braking.

Now you have time to read the paper.

320goat
10th Aug 2015, 09:36
I know....I know


but I'm guessing you got my point.


I wouldn't call a Dr a glorified nurse!

donpizmeov
10th Aug 2015, 11:17
Goat Herder?

misd-agin
10th Aug 2015, 12:23
330goat - "I don't read papers or magazines in flight, I am looking at diversion airfields, pulling up plates, calculating landing performance and reading part C briefs."



Wouldn't the real professional not read at all by your standard? And wouldn't he read job related stuff prior to the flight?

Since the diversion airports stay fairly constant over an hour or two, and reviewing a handful of plates doesn't take that long, and landing performance doesn't change that much or take that long to look at, how much time do you spend reading the C briefs?

Personally I like the newspapers with pictures.

natops
10th Aug 2015, 12:24
Most of us do the things you do AND read the newspaper Goaty.....

Dont forget to live....

N.:ok:

V1cutz
10th Aug 2015, 12:47
Hey Goat boy...My statement wasn't a knock on our professionalism or our worth to a company. It was a statement which is very true and hate to break it to you, but that's exactly what we are (obviously with more responsibility and skill). You must be a blast to sit next to in the cockpit though. Keep checking those alternates and reading those Part whatever briefs.

320goat
10th Aug 2015, 13:18
I'm a hell of a conversationalist!!!

I was just trying to make a point. There is a lot more to this job and I am not a glorified bus driver. I am a pilot who takes pride in his profession. Am I the only one?

Just like our crew are not glorified waitresses. They are there for our safety and having worked with a crew who had to perform CPR for 30 minutes to keep some chap alive, I have witnessed first hand how capable they are.

Anyhow, each to their own.

Now where did I put that manual.............

All the best, and sorry if any offence was caused.

320 (Goat Boy)
P.S. The whole reading material thing is covered in our Part A. Anyway, always found it a bit difficult peering at the instruments around the Telegraph, thank God for iPads!

N1LNAVVNAV
10th Aug 2015, 14:18
Hi folks
Who said that they will hired Turbo Props Pilots?
They are not calling Biz jets, whether you fly an phenom 100 or a Global 6000 with 9.000 hrs full,of Falcon, Gulfstream and Global.
That's why I came up with this question. Why TP and no Biz jets

Cheers
Knowledge and skills overcome superstition and luck.:D

jack schidt
10th Aug 2015, 16:08
What's a Biz Jet? ;)

(disclaimer >EK pilot< and too self important to have to fly with a biz jet pilot).

Sorry I have no idea why not corporate jets and a good question. The company is very keen on weight issues lately. If you can fit into those machines then I guess you would be a good candidate to apply!?

Jack

BANANASBANANAS
10th Aug 2015, 16:39
I think we are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees here.

The discussion shouldn't imho be about the suitability of TP pilots. Rather it should address one simple question:

1. Would EK be 'lowering' its entry requirements if it didn't have to?

FMSPEED
10th Aug 2015, 17:26
I don't understand why all the fuzz about EK lowerings it's minimums..it's not like they gonna call all the TP drivers right away..Im sure there are plenty of pilots in their pool with Boeing and Airbus time ready to join.. Maybe out of 50 guys they get 5 or 8 guys with no previous boeing or airbus experience... That's just my 2 cents..

migair54
10th Aug 2015, 17:31
Of course not BananasBananas, but they can see that the pool of pilots is getting empty and Emirates and Dubai is no longer what it was.

Some airlines that maybe are not better but they can offer nice roster for Captains and FO with reverse rostering and the possibility to live at home or close by, Chinese airlines give opportunity to be based in Europe and Australia, Jet Airways and Etiophian in USA and many more will do in the future.

I am a turboprop guy and obviously it will be necessary to do training and some extra help if I join Emirates, but it´s the same when we have gone from flying school to any airline, or from any plane to other, that is what training is designed for.

Some comments here are like TP guys are like cadets with 300 hours, we know how to do our job, many of us are even Captains, TRI, TRE, Inspectors, etc...

I think we are forgetting that one thing is lowering the requirements and another is accepting everyone after interview and simulator, if any turboprop guy pass the whole process it will be as valid/good as any other pilot because it is exactly the same process for all pilots going to EK.

striker26
10th Aug 2015, 17:37
Jennifer Aniston becomes face of Emirates Airlines after Justin Theroux marriage | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3190568/Jennifer-Aniston-signs-5-million-deal-face-Emirates-Airlines-secret-marriage-Justin-Theroux.html)

Well, at 5 million, at least we can all share a laugh :)

migair54, fully agree with you, to those applying - just make sure that when you apply you take into consideration the pros and cons, whether its EK or EY or SV or FZ or QR. I still have friends who want to work in the middle east cause they think its "tax free", huge mistake, go because you can live a life there, compare it with your home country, money shouldn't be the only reason!

cgwhitemonk11
10th Aug 2015, 18:03
Just wondering how long people forsee the window staying open? How long is a piece of string I know but generally how long do their windows remain active? I have 2300 tt, zero jet time and am eligible for my ATPL but my next sim ride isn't scheduled until December. Should I just apply now and in the unlikely event i get called before then I could book a sim check, fly a raw data ILS and get my ATPL issued. Any thoughts? Normally I would just wait but I don't want to miss the opportunity on something so simple.

jack schidt
10th Aug 2015, 19:12
@ cgwhitemonk11, please do apply and you never know what the reply will be as these guys are very desperate for pilots. It would be a great barometer of the desperation to see what the result of your application would be. TP, no current ATPL to fly wide body jets on global routes, perfect applicant under current low manning crisis. Give it a try.

J

Fire Ball XL5
10th Aug 2015, 20:52
Jack, I agree.... but give the guy a break....
37 years ago I was a TP guy hoping for the chance to score a deal as a FE on a 727... it never happened. But I persevered. For some, the dream is still real. If anyone has the enthusiasm and desire beyond (Mommy and Daddy want me to do this), I'll humbly welcome them to my cockpit.... and I will nurture, and promote whatever simple experience and skills I can afford. Remember... we've all been there... it's just a matter of steering those qualified to the appropriate path..
Enchilada...

cgwhitemonk11
11th Aug 2015, 04:48
Im fairly confident that given the right training, an experienced heavy TP guy could make the transition no problem Jack, if you can go from Easyjet to Emirates, you can go from Flybe... or do you think the Easy FO is so much more capable? Honest question, no trolling. In fact I would imagine the experienced TP guy will likely have the greater base of flying experience from which to build upon but call me old fashioned.