Days Off String with Jepp Bid System

[trimotor]

Did I hear a rumour recently, that TCAS had, at a recent Training Standardisation meeting, confirmed that the new bid/rostering system would limit days of to a maximum of 3?

[Dropp the Pilot]

Funny you should say that. I was just reading the last Training Newsletter where Martin says trainers will enter into the new rostering system later in the year. Four months ago at the Standardisation Meeting he emphatically declared that the new rostering system would in no way impede the current luxury trainers have of adjoining two five-day blocks of "off" days which bridge two months.

We know that won't be possible with the new system so was he deluded, disingenuous, or over-ruled?

I would definitely vacate the training role if we lost that little perk.

Depending on who you are, news of my possible departure may form a little Eid present. Enjoy.

[LHR Rain]

The biggest present you could give us Drop is if you left the company and not just training.
The way things are transpiring at EK that shouldn't be too hard for you or anyone.

[Am NOT Sure]

More training and less complaining

[yardman]

In the last standardization meeting both Stealey and Martin confirmed that the restriction on stringing days off at the end of one month with days off at the beginning of the next month would not apply to trainers.

[glofish]

If true: Why them and not everybody? WTF!

Animal Farm Syndrom hitting the training department as well. :mad:

[sluggums]

Because we don't get any leave we want... That's why. Martin is trying to shore his end of the sinking ship up.

[BigGeordie]

Whilst not taking anything away from how hard the trainers work....

NOBODY gets the leave they want. I've been owed 20 days for three years following cancellation of leave for a course. And I'm trying to take it off peak!

[adel]

I just dont get it,
We all work hard, trainers or line pilots are all in the same boat.
So the premise you havent been awarded your leave allows you the right to have a string of days off while others are faced with forced leave of random 4 days is acceptable...
Im sorry, but your just wrong

[Praise Jebus]

It's called robbing Peter to pay Paul. Anyone doing extra duties like training, safety, recruiting etc deservedly should be remunerated for that work. But if a company doesn't want to pay too many $$$ s then they can offer other incentives that cost nothing. Preferential bidding and less bidding restrictions for example. The people who 'pay' are everybody else..ie line pilots in this case. Clever really.....

[Townie]

The cycle continues. Every so often they get into a situation where they lose trainers who want to return to the "good life" on the line. Reasons have varied from line pilots making copious overtime which more than made up for the appointment pay, to overwork in the training ranks and not abiding by the promised rules for training.

What hasn't varied, however, is the company response to said problem. Faced with the decision to treat/reward the minority (i.e. trainers) better, or the majority worse they have always decided on the latter. Cue O/T threshold moved to ridiculous levels, roster micromanagement, manual insertions, and now this.

I heard LB advised some who intended to resign from training recently to hang in there, as the new rostering system would be crap for line pilots as compared to trainers.

Truly cost neutral on the books. Short term anyway. Well done. :D :ugh:

[Dropp the Pilot]

All true.

You should be aware that they are not above playing off trainers against trainers.

Some time back there was a shortage of people willing to become TRIs. Solution? Increase TRI pay by 15% and leave TRE pay unchanged.

Fair and just, no?

[sluggums]

All fair points re trainers. However, every time additional leave becomes available, guess what... "Not for trainers". I'm not decrying the line pilots but a (much?) higher proportion of the trainers didn't get their leave and had almost all of it allocated/forced...

It's neither here nor there, the company is shafting everybody. Pilots, CC, Engineers and ground staff.

[The Zohan]

yeah, all so amazing and interesting, but how about the system restricting a string of days off to a max of three.
is it true?:eek:

tz

[glofish]

I'm not decrying the line pilots but a (much?) higher proportion of the trainers didn't get their leave and had almost all of it allocated/forced...

Then leave the silly training department, but don't accept goodies others don't enjoy just because you want to stay in training.
You already get more (and deserved) doe, but that should be it! Basta!

Divide and conquer is very much alive, but still not morally acceptable.
You play the game, you take the blame.

Days off and leave are primordial requirements for QOL. A very sound advice to any manager and for that instance even for employees: Don't f*ck with that.

It takes some 5 years to get the word out externally that some management really lies and cheats extensively, it's definitely out now.
It takes only a few instants to get the word out internally when some groups start foul play.

You had a bad name and MM tried hard to rectify. Now it all goes to shambles again. Not looking forward to my next encounter with any of you.

[sluggums]

I never said I wanted to leave the training department. All I said was MM was allowing the trainers strings of days off...

I never said it was right or wrong. All I've done is stated the facts. Get over yourself. Don't got putting words in my mouth.

[SOPS]

Trainers get strings of days off, up to ten days, the rest can't. Divide and conquer wins.

It seems Trainers can go home each month for 10 days, while the rest struggle to 21 days in a row each year.

Seems there is a small imbalance there.

As I said, divide a conquer wins.

[sluggums]

Fair enough...

Every other month actually, but I agree the system as a whole is falling apart.

[glofish]

I never said I wanted to leave the training department. All I said was MM was allowing the trainers strings of days off...
I never said it was right or wrong. All I've done is stated the facts. Get over yourself. Don't got putting words in my mouth.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I simply proposed you could leave training, because what's happening is not correct. If you want to proceed, fair enough, but then swallow our disrespect.

But don't come on here whining about you supposedly not getting as much leave as the line pilots and you supposedly working more. If at all (and i dispute it) it is all self inflicted and quite nicely remunerated.

I state it once again: Irrespective of what pilot you are at EK, all of us are entitled to the same amount and conditions of days off and leave. There is nothing about that part of quality of life that should be neither traded nor accepted. It is too important. :=

AS and MM are about to nail a huge one into the coffin if this goes too far!

[SOPS]

Golfish, it has been the case for years. Trainers can get 10 days off in a row, us line people could not. When I joined it was easy to get 10 days off in a row, but this was taken off line pilots.
Then there was a Max of 5 days in a row. Usually in my case, followed by a ULR. So, they were useless to me, 2 days to go home and back was just stupid.

Now, if the max three day string is true, what it works into well is the acclimated rules.

Unless you live or want to go within the prescribed time difference, you are stuffed.

Trainers will keep their 10 off strings, and so can escape.

This is one of the reasons I chose the option.....if you don't like it leave....

[harry the cod]

Glofish

I agree that leave should not be more accessible to one group over another. 42 days contractual leave is exactly that, contractual! It matters not whether we are trainers or line pilots. The string of days off however is a 'perk' and not a contractual issue, the same way the monthly requested flight is. It is another incentive to assist those prepared to make other sacrifices such as reduced ULR options and 14 days off each month whilst they report for a 3am sim session. They get 5 hours credit for each of their expected 12 monthly duties but the work starts well before you turn up to the briefing room and finishes well after you're down the pub celebrating another pass. So, your comment that you're 'not looking forward to your next encounter with any of you' is not only disappointing coming from a fellow professional but also highly generalised and immature. Different rostering policies should have no affect whatsoever on the instructors attitude towards your performance should it? Mutual respect, remember! Let's not fight amongst ourselves. It's the system that's at fault and those that control these micromanagement policies. If there weren't so many restrictions we'd all be able to enjoy strings of days off, although not all at the end of the month. Remember though contrary to what SOPS is insinuating, EK is not a commuter airline and never has been. Those that work here or plan to do so are well advised to remember that fact!

And if you think we have it bad, the engineer who signed off my tech log several days ago was spitting feathers. Forced 'overtime' but not PAID overtime, merely days off in lieu. Adding insult to injury, he couldn't even take his entitled 42 days leave either with 30 being the norm for him and the majority of qualified engineers. One senior had sent a well written request to HR for clarification, along with extracts from the UAE employment regulations. The response?

"We are a semi government Company so the rules don't apply to us."

So, there you go, they have and will continue to do what they like to keep the show on the road. It will get worse and more people will get fired. The problem is, however, those that really should get dismissed are too high up and too well connected. I can't ever see the culture in this place improving anytime soon and having de motivated and fatigued engineers working on our planes does not inspire confidence.

Harry

[SOPS]

Sorry Harry, many trainers I know use their days off to commute. Many, many.

And further Harry, when I went to the interview days, 10 years ago, rosters were shown to us that we were told were "commutable'.

That's what some of us went there for, because family circumstances did not allow for our family to live in the UAE, but the prospect of commuting made the job attractive.

The contract that I signed, and the job I left, resembled nothing, except I flew an aircraft.

Harry, you really need to take a good look on others positions.

[sluggums]

Totally agree with Harry.

Plus, I don't see how trainers getting 5+5 days off is dividing and conquering. It doesn't pit the trainers against the line pilots in any way.

And BTW, things are so bad now that we didn't get our 5 days this month and probably not for a while. That should make you feel better glofish.

As I and many other have said, the system is failing us all, and not just the pilots as Harry said.

[harry the cod]

SOPS

If those that want to commute use the system to their advantage, so be it. Training is open to all providing they reach the required standard. I do agree with you regarding the rosters 10 years ago, they were commutable. However, times have changed and so have management attitudes and the increased pressures on the bottom line. That is not unique to Emirates. I do have a genuine empathy for those trying to make commuting work as it must be bloody frustrating with the current roster restrictions and increased hours that are required of us. Thank god at least for the swap system although that too is another bone of contention.

However, a time must come where you either change your lifestyle to suit the Company or change the Company to suit your lifestyle. You did the latter and I hope it's working for you.

Harry

[adel]

Commuting at Ek is just a long distant memory,
For me its simple...
A string of 3 days off per month, assuming the rest of the month is peppered between a string of two days and single day off,
Doing 90hrs a month... You just cant recover and be human....

[glofish]

The string of days off however is a 'perk' and not a contractual issue

No Harry, it is a recent restriction, one that does not apply to everyone. There's the difference, some are more equal.

So, your comment that you're 'not looking forward to your next encounter with any of you' is not only disappointing coming from a fellow professional but also highly generalised and immature.

It might sound harsh, yes, but here's why:

'Fellow professional' sounds quite hollow if the other fellow has unfair privileges. As immature as it may appear to you, this only comes when trainers actually 'defend' their unfair privileges with arguments that are easily countered: Any additional workload, any more time spent for the sake of training is voluntary. No one forced you to do that. You are paid for that as compensation. There is nothing a line pilot should have to endure, and by letting others get more string days off, we get less, so we truly sacrifice something. The continuous insistence that you give us vital service is not true. Training can be outsourced and these guys would not take strings of days off away from the lot.
As much as i appreciate having you guys as trainers, i will not by any means be happy to give up on any QOL. If AAR wants no strings of days off, so be it, but then a very powerful sign could be that all trainers no longer sacrifice their additional workload. Compensating this, as well as accepting this with a 'goodie' that is as important to all pilots just does not cut my sense of ..... fellow porfessionals.

[Emma Royds]

glofish

The scales are already tipped significantly in favour of our training colleagues, when it comes to rostering. Giving up two days from five rostered days to three rostered days is extremely significant for us as line pilots but it is insignificant in the context of the overall difference that already exists, between line and training rosters in general.

Days off aside, there is just as much if not more of a difference in how trips are shared and allocated. One trainer that springs to mind regularly gets two trips each month, back home to a very popular destination. An absolutely impossible feat for a line pilot.

I could understand a degree of frustration if our training colleagues were treated the same as us now and things were all of a sudden being significantly biased in their favour, but this is not the case.

I personally don't have an issue with the trainers getting some preferential treatment because their role requires some sacrifices to be made. Perhaps supply and demand has ensured that our training colleagues have kept some of their roster privileges? Good luck to them I say!

[Praise Jebus]

[QUOTE]I personally don't have an issue with the trainers getting some preferential treatment because their role requires some sacrifices to be made[QUOTE]

Except you Royds make the sacrifice to pay a trainer....The trip you can't bid for that was pre assigned to them or the day off that a trainer was given before you could bid for it. Even within training a TRE standards pilot will get pre-assigned a choice before his/her TRE colleague.... I don't believe trainers or anyone else for that matter should get roster preferences, the company wants them so let the company pay them (more)...

[CaptainChipotle]

Ha. You guys are really funny.

Trainers VS Line Pilots is more boring than A vs B threads.

Can't we all agree that as aviation professions we ALL deserve better treatment and QOL?

We, as a group keep giving in and giving in. We work more with less time off on and on again... ...now look what we are reduced to. Like kids fighting in a schoolyard over a toy. Over weather or not we deserve 5 days off at a time? Of course we all do.

As a pilot group we will just keep fighting until we are arguing over who gets the better cots to sleep in the training college between duties and Trainers get special treatment because they get 48hrs off each month.

Adjust your rosters accordingly people. You only have one body. It's clear the company only took advantage of us working harder for the last few years and beyond that.

[GoreTex]

"everybody who meet the required standards can become a trainer" that line made me laugh, as we all know every idiot can become a trainer a few months after his upgrade, not saying all trainers are idiots, if a guy wants to be a trainer shortly after his upgrade then there is something wrong with him.

[fatbus]

Tell that to those that failed.

[glofish]

The quality of trainers is another story, but eventually it is a result of what we are debating. MM did a great job to enhance their quality, especially by rooting out some rotten apples. But as the conditions became worse for all, the trainers got their share and more.

As many trainers called it a day (hats off to them), to keep up the numbers the department offered some 'perks'. Now as we all know, with perks you attract jerks. Guys who run after improvement for their position and who do not care if it is to the detriment of others. As the numbers still did not materialise sufficiently, they just lowered the requirements (rings a bell?).

Eventually we get the usual suspects staying and the rest now belongs to the Pampers fraction. None of both with the genuine intent of wanting to instruct fellow pilots, just for monetary and QOL improvement.
We can all understand that, but then no wonder that the line pilot is even more alienated and frustrated.

But to make things worse, at the same time quality is eroding again.

Just for a moment imagine that only the poor 330 jockeys would get such a privilege, because of their labor-camp like rosters ..... Not many of the rest would accept that, least the trainers on other fleets, because everyone would bring up their huge share to the blood dirhams.

Everyone would say "You knew it before you joined, if you don't like it, leave".

That could easily apply for trainers!

[allaru]

I would have thought that the generous training allowance, and reduced flying would have been enough compensation.

Its typical of this part of the world where people get into positions of authority (and responsibility) and abuse the privilege at the expense of the rest of the plebs who are not part of the leading elite....Oh and also a clear case of divide and conquer, again typical of the way things are done here.

The string of days of should apply to ALL end of story.

[SOPS]

Sorry Harry, can't buy the ' they only get 5 hours credit for a sim, but there is a lot more work than that ' argument. The guys on the line are sitting in the aircraft at sign on time, can be sitting in the Desdi hold for an hour, and then waiting another hour on the ground after shut down, while the cabin crew do post flight duties, or they are waiting for a hi loader, or whatever.

The line guys don't get any perks for any of this.

[harry the cod]

Not a problem SOPS, because I don't buy the 1 hour Desdi holding and 1 hour waiting for the Cabin crew. 12+ years, never once, any of the above.

Harry

[donpizmeov]

The three days off limit is still a rumour right?
Why the muppets won't publish the rostering rules is beyond me.
It is true that the new system will spread the sh@te flights more evenly, so more flights done by less pilots is the supposed result. More months of Min days off anyone?

[GoreTex]

I have done it many times, my last flight 30 min holding and an hour after block on they still hadn't opened the bulk to get the bags out.

you must be very lucky Harry

[alwayzinit]

I will be very surprised indeed if the rostering rules are published, after all knowledge is power.

Without doubt EK is nowhere near the airline that I elected to join 9 years ago. The word I think that is more appropriate now would be "Serve".

I believe it is now verging on a feudal system. IF the 3 days off rule is implemented then we will become defacto inmates in an open prison. That may sound like an over reaction, however, without the option to "bang out for a few days" then our freedom of movement is truly restricted.

I suspect that the max 3 off could be a scarer, so when it comes out as 4 off max we will all go "well that's not so bad!".

All the same it still stinks!

[SOPS]

You have never been in the hold, Harry? Never, ever in 12 years? Not once?

I find that hard to believe, either that, or you fly a desk.

[BobDole]

Same here, 60 min waiting is nothing out of the ordinary. On the other hand if you are off the plane with the entire crew at +30ish you have actually accomplished something!

DNATA... EK ### is waiting for a high loader on C/E/G.
DNATA - will take 30 min, late request.
EK ### I've called 3 times and first call was 30 min from ETA.
DNATA - Silence
:ugh:

[harry the cod]

SOPS

I don't know if you're edging for a fight or perhaps just too much time on your hands now that you've retired and the glasses of wine are larger than usual. Either way, please read before you post.

I never said I haven't held. What I said was I'd never held for 1 hour! I also stated I've never had to wait for the cabin crew for1 hour either! Was this something you did every flight? Trainers will put in more then their credit hours every time. Pilots may or may not hold but 1 hour every flight? Even GoreTex wouldn't make claim to that statement. Well.......probably not. And don't forget, trainers fly too and subject to the same delays.

You may be retired but that shouldn't be an excuse for failing memory. Or is this just another example of exaggeration to bolster a rather flimsy argument?

Harry

[SOPS]

Sorry Harry, understood now. But perhaps just make a post clearer by saying..I have never held for an hour..ISO...never happened to me, if you get what I mean.:ok:


I want to discuss with you Harry, I don't want to argue.