Working as a Pilot in China

[looseygoosey]

Beware flying in China.

There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.

In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.

Flying Upside Down:Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (zippyshare) (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (filedropper) (http://www.filedropper.com/flyingupsidedown)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]
There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.

Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.

干杯!
(Gānbēi)

(This post is a duplicate from here: Working as a Pilot in China - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/89413-working-pilot-china.html))

PS: IF you want to re-post this pdf elsewhere, please feel free. Our team would appreciate original credit, but other than that the intent of the work we all did was to inform people about realities and cut through the sunshine being blown up would-be contract pilot's asses. If someone beats us to the punch we won't be disappointed. We'll simply pop in, thank the effort and add our 2-3 cents as necessary.

[flash8]

Superb and very informative, given how comprehensive this is ever thought of selling it as a self-published book on amazon? hate to see all your efforts not rewarded.

Had a laugh at Even the Indians think the Chinese are crooked

That takes some beating!

[looseygoosey]

^ Sent!

Thanks for the kudos folks, we've gotten more views and downloads than we ever expected. Enjoy!

CS

[bafanguy]

Loosey,

Half way through...very entertaining !

Strikes me as a Public Service Announcement akin to, "Friends don't let friends drive drunk.".

[bafanguy]

Loosey,

Read your book cover to cover. Can only say, "wow!!"; you're a better man than I.

For those of us in the Peanut Gallery, would you (or anyone else who's read the book and worked for other Chinese carriers) say the circumstances at Hainan are representative of all Chinese carriers, some of them or just the absolute bottom of the Chinese barrel ?

[looseygoosey]

bafanguy, I'd like to send a shout-out to the other homies from around China to add their two cents regarding your question; in short, I will answer yes. Why? Because this just happened:

Man Tries To Set A Fire Aboard Plane In China (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/china-plane-fire_55b4e478e4b0074ba5a4d2a8?utm_hp_ref=tw)


Wanna haul around a bunch of cheap rubber doggy-doo outta Hong-Kong? It will be a lot safer than taking the locals from A to B! Good luck getting any support from company XYZ (take your pick) if something like this happens to you... Then again, $300k off the street to fly a 737 around, bump and grind mainland China... HMMMMM. SOUNDS FISHY.

Cheerio!

[Ansett737]

Sadly, but true, all Asia is an another world for a Western pilot!

[AmusedReader]

Thanks for the amusing read. :ok:

I took the liberty to upload this on Scribd, which is easier to access for people that don't want to bother with downloading 30MB PDF files:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452/Flying-Upside-Down-pdf

[wellfedCanuck]

I appreciate the attempt at humour and the attempt to be helpful to would-be expats, but you're painting the landscape with a very wide brush.

At the green & white airline in the big city down the coast things are considerably better than what you describe. There are many good Chinese pilots- good not only as in competent- but in personality. Treat them with respect and fairness and you get it back. While it's true that many things are backwards and frustrating by western standards- the Chinese are growing their industry a heck of a lot faster than we grew ours and we need to cut them some slack.

Maybe the individuals in your story deserve the treatment you've provided but without knowing you and projecting the other side of the story- I have no way of being sure. But I think you're really being unfair in your portrayal of Chinese airlines and the culture and country as a whole. There are a lot of good, high-quality people here.

Providing a required skill or not- we're guests in this country and I wouldn't blame Chinese completely unconnected to Tianjin for being greatly offended by you and your book. I sure hope they don't tar all of us with one brush like you did with them.

[joe falchetto 64]

Very well said. I fly for a Chinese airline in another big city and what you write is exactly what I would describe here.
Actually I enjoy my time flying and I enjoy my weeks off when I can live a comfortable life with my family spending the money I am earning.
Maybe it is just for me but I find myself living a quite pleasant life here. There are obviously many things you need to adapt, but for me better China that Middle East...at least 100 times.
So please, if you do not like it just quit and do not spend so much time in writing: we that work here prefer to keep the nice relations with our Chinese colleagues.
Regards.
Regards.

I appreciate the attempt at humour and the attempt to be helpful to would-be expats, but you're painting the landscape with a very wide brush.

At the green & white airline in the big city down the coast things are considerably better than what you describe. There are many good Chinese pilots- good not only as in competent- but in personality. Treat them with respect and fairness and you get it back. While it's true that many things are backwards and frustrating by western standards- the Chinese are growing their industry a heck of a lot faster than we grew ours and we need to cut them some slack.

Maybe the individuals in your story deserve the treatment you've provided but without knowing you and projecting the other side of the story- I have no way of being sure. But I think you're really being unfair in your portrayal of Chinese airlines and the culture and country as a whole. There are a lot of good, high-quality people here.

Providing a required skill or not- we're guests in this country and I wouldn't blame Chinese completely unconnected to Tianjin for being greatly offended by you and your book. I sure hope they don't tar all of us with one brush like you did with them.

[Oscar84]

Joe and Wellfed

In wich one are you working?

i am thinking to move to mainland, I got an email asking me to go to the interview next week, but trying to dissipate my doubts...

[dignified]

Would it be fair to interpret Falchetto as "false modesty" in Italian?:E

[Oscar84]

There is no good company in china to work with?

Really?

[joe falchetto 64]

I don't know: everybody is free to make the best guess and Interprete my words as he likes.
By the way, I just stated my experience and what is funny is that I know directly a lot of colleagues that every day complain about the same issues...but strangely they are at the second or third contract. Just to be completely honest, it is not difficult today for a captain to find another airline in another place maybe closer to homeland where to fly...so if I stay in PRC is just because I like it.
Regarding "falsa modestia" Italian is a very complex language and sentences may have a lot of different meanings...almost like english.
Regards.
Would it be fair to interpret Falchetto as "false modesty" in Italian?:E

[joe falchetto 64]

Hi. I can give you only one suggestion: go and see by yourself. You will have the chance to talk directly with some laowei there that will give you the best inside look about the candidate airline, and you also will experience a little bit of the Chinese way of living.
Ciao.
Joe and Wellfed

In wich one are you working?

i am thinking to move to mainland, I got an email asking me to go to the interview next week, but trying to dissipate my doubts...

[looseygoosey]

Very well said. I fly for a Chinese airline in another big city and what you write is exactly what I would describe here. Actually I enjoy my time flying and I enjoy my weeks off when I can live a comfortable life with my family spending the money I am earning. Maybe it is just for me but I find myself living a quite pleasant life here. There are obviously many things you need to adapt, but for me better China that Middle East...at least 100 times. So please, if you do not like it just quit and do not spend so much time in writing: we that work here prefer to keep the nice relations with our Chinese colleagues.
Regards.I appreciate the attempt at humour and the attempt to be helpful to would-be expats, but you're painting the landscape with a very wide brush.

At the green & white airline in the big city down the coast things are considerably better than what you describe. There are many good Chinese pilots- good not only as in competent- but in personality. Treat them with respect and fairness and you get it back. While it's true that many things are backwards and frustrating by western standards- the Chinese are growing their industry a heck of a lot faster than we grew ours and we need to cut them some slack.

Maybe the individuals in your story deserve the treatment you've provided but without knowing you and projecting the other side of the story- I have no way of being sure. But I think you're really being unfair in your portrayal of Chinese airlines and the culture and country as a whole. There are a lot of good, high-quality people here.

Providing a required skill or not- we're guests in this country and I wouldn't blame Chinese completely unconnected to Tianjin for being greatly offended by you and your book. I sure hope they don't tar all of us with one brush like you did with them.Hi Joe and Canuck, thank you both for offering your thoughts and insights. I'd like to begin by referring to the introduction where it is stated and developed that the opinions and methods of 'FUD' and 'Duke' are not going to sit well with all; so, your points are respectfully taken and noted. I'd also hazard a guess that you both possess exceptional negotiating skills, coping skills as well as flight deck skills. China is obviously working out for you with the facilities and mentality you bring to the theatre of operations, and that's great.

However, it has been my experience that you two are in the minority (maybe not on the flight deck, but certainly in people skills). I have seen firsthand at least 5x the current on-property expat pilot contingent (~40-50 at the time) interview, come and go at Tianjin, and I've heard similar numbers apply at other carriers over there. Would-be expats have flashy paychecks waved in front of their noses by recruiters (which should be an immediate tip-off: if it's too good to be true blablabla...) when what they need is an honest-to-gosh discussion, pub-style, explaining the intricacies of the threats and risks they WILL meet on a daily basis operating over there. Again, we went for the "Jerry Springer" approach over the snooze fest of "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" and the numbers of downloads, personal messages of support and thanks in general indicate our choice was well made. Judge accordingly as you find appropriate.

Without going tit-for-tat with you, which would be argumentative and disrespectful, I would like to change the subject and solicit your observations. I'd like to invite you to discuss a number of issues in the preferred "Naval Aerodynamics" style if you have the time and interest.

First and foremost, would you describe the demographic breakdown of the expat pilot group at your respective carriers? Total number on property, Male/Female, White/Black/Hispanic, N. American/S. American/European etc? I'm curious to know the figures at some other carriers (which you mention and we did not have contact with). I'm curious to know if other carriers reflect what comprised Tianjin's contingent as it came and went over the years.

Best regards,
L.G.

[Scoreboard]

Have to admit was a pretty funny read....and after being in China back in 90s watching it gear up......already I could see what was coming down the pipe all these years later in your write ups...nice to see it become full blown crap fest.


Everything from grabbing the yoke with a death grip when they encounter any turbulence, do we know what TRIM is? to the backstabbing bs that makes them think they will get ahead....saw it then....its just been refined by 2015. Airways denied due prob of CB...lol...saw the gamut of stupid ****.


For those that passed comment like mentioning the green and white in HK. if you had a clue you would have already noticed the HK locals are rapidly distancing themselves from the Mainlanders....and that's just in matter of public discourse let alone in complicated operational tasks of flying. The only reason the green and white is above the grade compared to any mainland operation... it has a western operational management style at its heart, with no billing on QAR incidents.

[looseygoosey]

Thanks for stopping by with your comments, Score.

It's nice to get the firsthand observations of people who experienced China in different decades; establishing a pattern is extremely powerful when trying to convince pilots and win approval. If you have a chance, could you email me your favorite story of flying in China? We want to add it to our next volume. Alternatively, if you want to post it here that's cool too!

[email protected]

All the best,
L.G.

[USMCProbe]

Here is my favorite story. I happened every day:

"When I show up to work, and set my flight bag down, that is the last time I pick it up until the end of the day when I am finished. The FA"s carry it to the aircraft and back.

When I go back to use the lavatory, the first FA that sees me open the door rushes into the bathroom first and closes the door. She has to make sure the bathroom is clean enough for the Captain.

Then, every month, they paid me a whole bunch of money.?

There are some bad stories as well. But there are enough wankers on these forums complaining, I will leave that up to them.

[Global Nomad]

One could argue that there's plenty of wankers complaining about others telling as it really is.

[Ghost_Rider737]

the book is awesome. keep up the good work gentlemen.

I thought I should share this story with you.
My wife and I decided to holiday in Thailand (mid 2013). One of the attractions was Maya Beach on Koh Phi Phi Lei.
the island where the movie "The Beach" was filmed.
So we arrived there in the morning via hotel speed boat and while admiring it's prestine beach and breathtaking views...etc

In the distance a massive cruise ship arrived. From a distance we could see people being loaded onto smaller boats and sent to shore to "enjoy".....presumably the prestine beach.

Within minutes "the beach" was consumed with a zillion Chinese tourists armed with picnic baskets and the like.
There were large sign posts all over directing people to the public toilet.
So I was standing on the shore next to my wife. On my left was a Chinese women. She obviously felt very comfortable with her surroundings and proceeded to dig a hole and squat in it......WTF ...once she was done she pulled up her pants , covered the hole and that was that.......
We were brave and decided to hang about till we could have the beach to ourselves and maybe take a swim (LOL).
After an hour the people were loaded back onto the smaller boats and taken back to the "mother ship".

Needless to say the beach which was prestine (an hour ago) was now covered with litter and everything that could dessimate the sea life in a flash and serve as a BBC documentary ....

I would not want to think about everyday life in China. No matter how much cash you throw at me.

Good luck to you guys over there.

[looseygoosey]

[USMCProbe wrote:] There are some bad stories as well. But there are enough wankers on these forums complaining, I will leave that up to them.Of course, as long as you're getting a nice big paycheck you're willing to ignore the fact that the US (being that you're touting USMC in your screen-name) is being invaded electronically over the internet by the PLA daily and by unchecked economic aggression over several decades, and they pull the strings for the DPRK threatening to nuke the US every other week or whatever...

..but, that's none of my business. Please, keep telling us how great it is to be getting paid by the enemy as an ex-Marine again?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-48yGhtEK6c8/Vce8n65jDcI/AAAAAAAAABY/UMuHSAnCptk/w223-h217-no/index.jpg

I mean... you wouldn't be ignoring this kind of thing and putting it behind you just because you're getting a nice fat bank account, would ya Probe?

BREACH AT LOS ALAMOS - A special report. - China Stole Nuclear Secrets For Bombs, U.S. Aides Say - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-report-china-stole-nuclear-secrets-for-bombs-us-aides.html)


Nah! An ex-Marine should never be accused of engaging in ignoring such things. Pure madness!

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Jeepers LooseGoose,

What a tirade. Looks like you want to start WWIII. The USA is definitely not a saint or a victim in the world of geopolitical manipulation. And the US government is no real friend to its service personnel either. Especially after it has used and abused them and returned them home to the country they purportedly defended without their limbs. So perhaps on this topic you should pull you head out of that dark place you frequently wipe.

Wooblah.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Goosey,

Obviously you were not above having worked there with your pompous moral standards. At least USMC remembered to get his gear up in a timely manner and has the opportunity if he chooses to work there again. There is some humor in your book but obviously you did not play the game well there. the key is fitting in and not rocking the boat too much so that in 6-8 years in China you will leave with a $1.5 million portoflio and retire never to have to fly again unless its it your own small aircraft.

[USMCProbe]

Bad attitudes are continuous, and self-perpetuating. I guaranty if Goosey ever gets a job anywhere again, He will leave again just as pis$ed off.

Everything will be their fault. They are so screwed up.

There is a bottom 10% everywhere, unfortunately that group is by far the most vocal on PPRUNE.

[looseygoosey]

No, what I'm reacting to is the following:

USMCProbe: But there are enough wankers on these forums complaining...
I'm not going to take kindly to being called a w@nker the more so because there are actual legitimate complaints, concerns and discussions to be had of real-world risks working as a contract pilot in a country like China. I'm brave enough (as well as my contributors) to put it out there for others to pick apart and armchair quarterback as they choose. For my particular case (which is duplicated in the experiences of several other captains in our book), I went fairly blindly into a contract in China and weathered something like 4 years. Being that I quit my job in the US I had no "out" because I was foolish, and when the time did come to pull out of China I went on my merry way to other things, not looking back with any regret for having left. Having said that, I have encountered too many pilots who were shocked at what they had gotten themselves into in China and THIS is my purpose here, to address this need for information.

If you want to call this pompous or the words of a w@nker, that's your choice. But then, I'm no damned Mother Theresa either and if you attack me I will defend myself and the intent of the book.

Probe has taken it upon himself to paint fellow Americans with colors that are abusively incorrect. What we have here is a coolaid drinker who will say anything to validate his choices in career (trolling), not a reasonable commenter.

Yes, it was an amazing experience to have Flight Attendants literally run to go clean the head before I used it too... but you know what, this gesture was not a generous tip; it was coerced behavior within a highly oppressive regime. People have to PAY their way into the job of cabin crew in China, and once there they have an unbelievable set of responsibilities thrust upon them; in the West we'd call it corrupt, harassment and a litany of other labels and expressions.

But, USMCProbe, the same guy who shoveled **** in Shreveport and dedicated his life to serving in the Marines wants to shift loyalty to the red flag with yellow stars, so be it. I made a vocal, determined statement before I left the US to go to China, and that was a flat-out declaration that I had loyalties that remained in the US (and the West in general) and that I would not express discontent in terms of putting China at the top of the heirarchy.

Indeed, this is not to say I feel America is above criticism, heavens no. Absolutely not; there are a LOT of challenges facing our nation and our behavior with international policy has been atrocious. It is also not to say that my concept of America is so delicate as to not withstand critique.

L.G.

[looseygoosey]

WYOMINGPILOT: the key is fitting in and not rocking the boat too much so that in 6-8 years in China you will leave with a $1.5 million portoflio and retire never to have to fly again unless its it your own small aircraftW.P. I'm really glad you commented with this critique; and it's exactly this misconception and oversimplification that FUD is trying to dispel.

Take, for instance, the heading that starts on page 58 where Tianjin Airlines defines "abnormal situation":

Let that list sink in for a minute. Notice in particular how items like #7. Hijack and #8. Inflight Fire are grouped with things like #12. Communication Failure and #21. Go-around. This should begin to illustrate how the concept, “I will go there to fly their jets the way they want them flown and just collect my paycheck” is on a collision course with reality.If {{ca$h!!!}} is enough for you to completely rearrange your thinking on the flight deck and assume the risks of flying in a place like China, that is your choice. Short term "WIN" is enough for certain people to bite the bullet and go take care of business. Bear in mind, the devil does not give up his fiddle so easily.

I (and my contributors) encourage the newbie contract pilot to do some serious thinking before taking the plunge. There are some really important issues that need to be worked through before potentially signing your life away; some pilots are content to do that for the promise of big money and fabulous prizes. The REALITY is much different, and THIS message is what we are trying to relay in FUD.

Read between the lines of funny exchanges and "I can't believe it" incredulity. You may find wisdom, you many not.

(But, if it's name calling anyone is after, I will take the right to defend myself.)

[ManaAdaSystem]

I struggle a bit with this book. A lot of good information, but heavily anti China and anti Chinese.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?

I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.

[looseygoosey]

I struggle a bit with this book. A lot of good information, but heavily anti China and anti Chinese.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?

I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.

Greetings M.A.S. thank you for taking the time to leave your comments.

For a westerner like me (and others who contributed to FUD) what you have to understand is that the Chinese are extremely homogeneous. China is for the Chinese, about the Chinese and not much else. In your research I'd recommend looking up "sinocentrism" for some more background. But you are correct, on a one-to-one basis, the Chinese can be quite lovely. We cover this in the first section of our book.

I and several other captains who contributed have worked outside of the US or did not hail from the USA (being either European or South American). Some were more anti-China than others.

The CAAC is... insane. Imagine the FAA on PMS and LSD and you have a pretty good description. Being the governing force, you can imagine the influence this has on airlines throughout the great nation in general. We did touch on a few outside stories, but I veiled them in some instances to protect the anonymity of the story tellers. But you are right, we could use more stories from other airlines. I have received a few messages from potential future contributors for volume II of FUD.

RE: FL250 and wearing O2 when a pilot leaves the deck, this is pretty common in the regulations. Here is an excerpt of the regulation (FAR 121.333):

FAR Part § 121.333: Supplemental oxygen for emergency descent and for first aid; turbine engine powered airplanes with pressurized cabins -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR (http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_121-333.html)

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (c)(2) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave his station at the controls of the airplane when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use his oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to his duty station.

Fly safely!
L.G.

[klmasdriver]

Fully agreed with Mana's opinion.

Loosy,
The donning of oxygen mask by remaining pilot in the cockpit is NOT required, if your aircraft has a quick don oxy system. Please refer to the same FAR reference section 2, part i. I very much doubt any commercial airliner that hires foreigners in China doesn't have a quick don oxy system.

I mean no disrespect here but this is yet another excellent example to showcase how silly your colleague can be in quoting something from the FAA without understanding fully and trying to ridicule the locals. IMHO, You folks have no ground to stand on this one.

Final note, if all of you are suffering that much with hatred and ungratefulness, suggest you find a better job elsewhere. If that's not an option you need to put bread on the table, learn to adapt and and contribute more humbly and positively please.

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Loosey,

I'm jumping in here and going to say I totally agree with the previous posters. Just too much hate. Furthermore I reckon China should be for the Chinese. The USA has probably the worst record in hiring foreign pilots. Ie. They don't hire en-mass. Generally you need a green card. Additionally except for the Legacy carriers US regionals pay peanuts. So in reality China is giving most of you a job and a chance to further your careers.

Because I'm pretty much sure that if you got anything close to what you are getting in China at home you would be backstabbing each other to jump aboard.

Wooblah.

[Major Cleve Saville]

As an expat pilot you have to a simple choice to make: Stay in a system that does not meet Western/ or even minimum standards of safety, or leave.

If you continue to work in a system that puts peoples lives at risk unnecessarily or even intentionally do you not have a moral obligation to stop supporting this system? Would it be seen as acceptable for e.g. a Doctor of Medicine to follow procedures he knows to be incorrect or to turn a blind eye to the incompetence of his peers in return for cold hard cash?

If you fly in S.E Asia you will find:

1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.

The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.

If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.

Cleve Saville (Major Ret.)

[latetonite]

Well Said, Major.

[ELAC]

If you fly in S.E Asia you will find:

1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.

The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.

If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.


Cleve,

Just curious:

Is Asian aviation better off with or without influences that may modify and improve these factors?

Do you think the Asian aviation consumer will either punish or reward those carriers that choose to do without such influences, given the general lack of information on aviation safety cultures and standards in the area? Do the consumers actually have any real choice at all?

Do you really think that the presence of expats is in any way critical to keeping any of these carriers flying?

Just curious.

Regards,

ELAC

[ManaAdaSystem]

I have worked in several parts of the world, and I recognize what you are saying Major.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.

Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.

The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.

Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?

Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?

I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys, we can talk all we want but the truth is they wouldn't pay you the big bucks if they were in line with western countries. To endure all these "differences", that's what you're payed for.

[Major Cleve Saville]

ELAC

Is Asian aviation better off with or without influences that may modify and improve these factors?

Can you give me an example where the Chinese airlines in particular have modified their operations after input from the 'foreigners'. A handful of expats will not change the outlook of thousands of years of cultural influence.

The Koreans were forced into hiring expats as a result of their accident record. However reading posts on all the Korean carriers you know that fundamentally the local culture wins through.

It is unfortunate for Asia that aviation is constructed around western attitudes and outlooks with an assumption that individuals take responsibility for their actions and are capable of independent thought. Aviation has progressed through admitting we made mistakes, did not get it right, and made changes accordingly.

How do you get a culture to change where: 'the leaders' are the only ones who can make decisions, and to change anything would be an admission that they dot it 'wrong' and face has been lost?

I would suggest that had Asia been the prime manufacturers of Aircraft for the last 100 years the accepted operating philosophies and procedures would be very different.

I do know of expats who have progressed through some Asian airlines, but they tend to adopt the local outlook. In my opinion all of the expat 'influencers' in these airlines would be seen as 'oddballs' in their home cultures.

In my experience the expat Captains can improve safety on their individual flights but ultimately can not influence corporate safety.

The large salaries tend to be in places that are unpleasant to live in. If anybody thinks the Chinese are paying for expertise, that is delusional. Those that succeed their are those that are able to accept and adapt to the way they operate. Anybody who tries to do things in a Western way will not get online.

Bottom line: Western pilots can improve safety on a handful of flights but influencing the locals, convincing them they need to change, really? Give me some examples.

[ELAC]

Cleve,

I can agree with much of what you say, but by no means all.

My points of reference are 15 years spent working in Korea, India and China on long-haul fleets.

The direct influence of expats at the ops/mgmt level is as you say not overly significant, but I have seen it achieve some improvements at times.

To see the real influence of expats, though, you have to take a longer view. All of those flights where operational performance was enhanced has an effect, not just directly on that flight but additively over time in that the F/Os (and Capts ... my crews are usually 4-5 pilots in total) you fly with become more adaptable and adapted to western procedures and concepts.

This takes time and does not provide immediate results, but changes are noticeable eventually. For example, when I joined KE in 2000 they had just experienced a spate of bad accidents. There were 3 fatal accidents at KE between the time I screened in 1999 and when I accepted the offer in 2000. The safety culture was very poor. Some change for the better was noticeable by the time I left 5 years later and I believe it has improved there more since then. There have been no fatal accidents since 1999. Now KE still has some ways to go but I believe it has improved and one of the reasons (not the only or greatest) for that improvement has been the overall impact of expats particularly on the F/Os who then become the managers of the future. They still take an Asian approach, but it does get modified and I believe improved by their experiences with expats. That alone, mind you, does not mean that KE is a great place to work now, anymore than it was then. There are still land mines there for the unwary, but I also know good operators who have survived their for closing on 20 years and they are happy enough not to move.

A personal example of the effect of expats in action is an F/O I befriended during my KE days who later became a Capt. and eventually decided to move on from KE and become an expat himself joining the same carrier I'm now working for a number of years later. He's well respected by expats and locals alike and I think he would tell you that his growth as an aviator was much influenced by the expats he worked with in his earlier years.

As to the quality and nature of the expats working in the locales I have frequented, I would have to disagree quite a bit with your assessment. The successful expats I have known were typically also very successful in the western carriers they came from, often as trainers, checkers and managers. Succeeding in the expat world requires both good skill and knowledge as well as an ability to apply both "western" airmanship and "eastern" cultural approaches in a way that results in as safe an operation as can be achieved with the resources at hand. CRM takes on a whole new meaning when you have to apply it across cultures to get the job done.

There are certainly some bad apples and odd ducks in the expat barrel, but I'd be pretty comfortable sitting beside or behind a large majority of the guys who've survived long term in this environment. They seem to have figured out what the real priorities are.

Referring to the book that is the subject of this thread, it is entertaining and I can sympathize with many of the stories presented. That said it reads a tad too far to the side of hyperbole for my taste and definitely has more than a faint odour of the same racism it complains about. To my ear they sound like the stories of a group with very little expat experience (even if not all came from the U.S.) operating a type that was unlikely to have given them much previous international exposure, that were dropped with little assistance into a Chinese carrier that seems to be at the bottom of the barrel in how it treats its pilots. Other groups at other carriers have experienced similar things, but to my knowledge, generally not to the same degree. After 7 years I'm leaving my carrier on good terms and with their assistance in transferring to another Chinese carrier that can offer terms that better match my lifestyle needs.

So, the real truth is that it ain't always all that bad everywhere, and I don't think that either the book or your previous comments reflect that. Those interested in any expat job need to do their homework and avoid relying on any single source of info if they want the whole picture. Goose's book will help only if the wheat gets better sorted from the chaff.

Regards,

ELAC

[ManaAdaSystem]

^^^^^ What ELAC said.

Too bad we can' t put a "like" on a PPruNe post.

Those that succeed their are those that are able to accept and adapt to the way they operate.

This applies to any airline in the world.

[USMCProbe]

Mana;

What? Are you saying the a pilot at Virgin or Delta has to follow SOP's, even if he doesn't like them? He has to follow stupid rules, because some poorly run management and civil aviation authority make them up. Just to collect a paycheck?

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Major Cleve Saville]

Mana,

I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats.

Sorry where did I say "the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats", what I said was the emphasis on certain aspects of an Airline operation/operating airplanes in Asia is different to that of some other airline cultures. Different airline cultures place greater emphasis on different elements.

"the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong."

Yes this is true all airlines pride themselves on their adherence to SOPs, however I would suggest that the different order of priorities in most Western airlines is.
1) Ability to fly the airplane.
2) Ability to manage the Flight Deck especially in a non-normal/abnormal situation.
3) SOPs.

"and the way they treat those who do wrong".

How do they treat those who do wrong? I have only seen willful negligence punished never human error, being caught out once in a while. And treating people differently due to race is not acceptable or tolerated in mist Western Countries.

Cleve.

[landrecovery]

Hilarious read, well done and all true.:ok:

Hong Kong heading that way too.:mad:

[WJAPilot]

well written ELAC !!

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Brilliant read so far!! :ok:

[RealUlli]

(Potentially stupid) question from this SLF:

*Why* do the Chinese airlines pay so much to expats?

China has >1 billion citizens, they should be easily able to educate enough of them to become pilots. The salaries they're offering to expats are so high that they're comparable to someone in the US making $100k PER MONTH! Somehow, I can't imagine they lack candidates...

Is it possible that someone there knows about the cultural difference and uses it to improve the safety overall because he knows that the asian pilot will just follow the SOPs, no matter what happens, while the expat pilot has his skills and airmanship to fall back on in a situation that's not covered by an SOP?

From what I read here, the asian pilots function rather like a quite versatile autopilot, one that could quite possibly be rolled out fairly soon by Airbus or Boeing.

As an SLF, I'd still want a well-trained captain on board to deal with unforeseen problems, not a redundant autopilot^W^Wasian pilot...

(Now crawling back under my damp rock... ;-))

[The Dominican]

while the expat pilot has his skills and airmanship to fall back on in a situation that's not covered by an SOP?

Sorry to be the one to bring this up but....., if you look at all the accidents and incidents of the last decade worldwide......, one g stalls of heavy A/C's, landing on the wrong airports or even taxiways, CFIT, roll off the end of the runway, runway incursion, near miss incidents......, the vast majority have been with western crews at the helm:rolleyes:

[neila83]

Wow this head has really brought out the bigots! The tone of the op towards anyone who reports they had a different experience suggests they have an agenda and no interest in any experience that doesn't validate this.

The fact the book uses the oxygen masks above 25,000 feet story to prosecute the Chinese is enough to cast doubt on the reader on how much of any of it you should take seriously. And also the authors own aviation knowledge?

As for claims of SOPs ruling compared to airmanship, we're always reading on other boards about the new breed of magenta line SOP monkeys on Western airlines, and the poor safety cultures of management. It's all very ministry of truth how that is being scrubbed for the sake of condemning other cultures.

And as for anecdotes about toursts in thailand, aren't pilots supposed to be rational? Not sure what it has to do with anything, but go and look at Aussies in Bali who are the most grotesque example of a single nation I've ever seen. Does that make them terrible pilots?

And yes, look at accidents. This comes across as a bitter person, who won't let it go. Some people can't and shouldn't attempt to live in other cultures.

[safelife]

RealUlli, in answer to your question: Chinese airlines not only pay expats that much, locals earn just about the same.
They have plenty of candidates, but a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots ready to be a captain.

[RealUlli]

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry to be the one to bring this up but....., if you look at all the accidents and incidents of the last decade worldwide......, one g stalls of heavy A/C's, landing on the wrong airports or even taxiways, CFIT, roll off the end of the runway, runway incursion, near miss incidents......, the vast majority have been with western crews at the helm

Nothing like facts to deflate windy arguments like mine. :ugh:

And as for anecdotes about toursts in thailand, aren't pilots supposed to be rational? Not sure what it has to do with anything, but go and look at Aussies in Bali who are the most grotesque example of a single nation I've ever seen. Does that make them terrible pilots?

The same goes for Brits in the Mediterranean, Germans in Mallorca, Russians in Egypt and Turkey, ... (I'm sure there are examples for all other nations, too, these are just the ones that popped into my head)

Morale: never judge a nation by the worst behaviour of their tourists.

The reason why I had the suspicion I posted is, I've been to China quite a few times. What I noted is, they build really nice parks that are absolutely gorgeous when they are new. On the other hand, I can't figure out why they always seem to let them go to waste in very short order (they seem to forget to water the lawns, etc...). I've suspected that while they did hire people to maintain the park, they forgot to write an instruction to water the lawn when it's dry.

In a Tom Clancy novel, one of the Americans compared the Chinese to the Klingons. Sometimes I got the impression that comparison was not too far off the mark - I always tend to assume that when I can talk to someone, he must have a similar culture. My mistake, I know. Adjusting to the Chinese culture it harder than it looks. ;-)

They have plenty of candidates, but a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots ready to be a captain.

So, they really have a shortage and are willing to face the facts. Unlike a lot of western (regional?) airlines who appear to have only a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts.

Again, thanks for the answers. :ok:

[safelife]

In a Tom Clancy novel, one of the Americans compared the Chinese to the Klingons. Sometimes I got the impression that comparison was not too far off the mark - I always tend to assume that when I can talk to someone, he must have a similar culture. My mistake, I know. Adjusting to the Chinese culture it harder than it looks. ;-)

You don't adjust, you'll be assimilated.
Resistance is futile.

[llondel]

My understanding of many of the issues in SE Asia is that "loss of face" is important (or rather the avoiding of) and the existence of a very hierarchical structure means that it is also important that your boss does not lose face either. Korean cockpit procedures got slated for this after a few fatal crashes and they did make a big effort to improve.

(Not to say that the rest of the world isn't immune either, just that some countries/airlines learned the value of proper CRM a lot earlier than others.)

Rightly or wrongly, I choose to avoid flying on airlines from certain countries because I perceive their safety as being poor. If everyone did that, they'd have great incentive to improve, but the absence of a few foreigners at the back of the aircraft is not going to change Chinese culture, given that they've got plenty of their own people to fly around. the only way to change the flight deck behaviour is by someone sitting in one of the seats and providing an education, and even that's unlikely to have much effect.

[de facto]

I have worked in several parts of the world, and I recognize what you are saying Major.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.

Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.

The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.

Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?

Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?

I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.
ManaAdaSystem is offline Report Post
Well written!

Major Cleve,ever flown for a transport airline in china? I bet not.
And treating people differently due to race is not acceptable or tolerated in mist Western Countries.
Fantasy world you live in....go and have a beer with the local yanks in china and just listen..it is truely enlightening!

[de facto]

(Now crawling back under my damp rock... ;-))
Yes please.
In the airline i flew for,safety is number 1.
If you diverted,no questions asked.
If you denied boarding to crazy pax,no question asked.
If you continuously land long,have a hard landing,you will be getting free sim.(can hurt one ego but it makes you a better pilot.
FOQA monitoring is well used,some find it against their pilot liberty,some like me find it a good reason to get better and avoid any foqa.
If you thought to let your fo land when he was restricted because heck who writes these silly restrictions,we trust our pilots where i come from....and the fo tail strikes the brand new-900...,questions will be asked and fine may be imposed..
If the same pilot decides to land when against sop,(unstable..)...he will be shown the door.

[peffi]

Great read! I don't consider changing my job, and my experience is not sought after in China. It is however a reminder that the grass does not get green enough just because the money is good. If one does not want to believe everything in this book, it is not too difficult to find the same information elsewhere. The bottom line is that flying in China is unsafe. All the money in the world can not change this fact. If it was safe, all the other crap is not worth it. But it is all the crap that makes it unsafe, so, no. If flying in China is the only option for a pilot-job, then do something else than being a pilot.

[captainpluto]

Do you really get what is mentioned in the contract when working in China? Also what are the cons for a pilot working there

[joe falchetto 64]

Great read! I don't consider changing my job, and my experience is not sought after in China. It is however a reminder that the grass does not get green enough just because the money is good. If one does not want to believe everything in this book, it is not too difficult to find the same information elsewhere. The bottom line is that flying in China is unsafe. All the money in the world can not change this fact. If it was safe, all the other crap is not worth it. But it is all the crap that makes it unsafe, so, no. If flying in China is the only option for a pilot-job, then do something else than being a pilot.

Maybe you got a very negative picture.

[joe falchetto 64]

Do you really get what is mentioned in the contract when working in China? Also what are the cons for a pilot working there

Actually I get more, not less.

[gulliBell]

..Also what are the cons for a pilot working there

Cheap food. Cheaper beer. Not good for the cholesterol or waist line. Particularly come medical time.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

After the pandemic and the literal purging of almost all Expat pilots I wonder if the author feels at least some vindication?

[FlightDetent]

the literal purging of almost all Expat pilots Do tell, what happened?

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Do tell, what happened? It’s no secret, China went from over 1500 ExPats to a mere 100 through the pandemic. It is doubtful they will return anytime soon as Chinese cadet pilots continue to keep up with domestic growth and rebound.

[Climb150]

And you are surprised?

[fatbus]

And some will take the deal .

[FlightDetent]

BCA "new pandemic" contract briefing sheet is circulating. They are scouting for foreign pilots with CAAC licence, probably to support future growth. Deflate HNA, expand BCA - well imaginable.

4500 USD training pay
3000 USD basic pay + flight hours + allowances

​​​​​​Assuming 600 hr/y with a flexible commuting arrangement (the usual double edge blade) the figures show approx 13000 US/m averaged net.

Beats WZZ in AUH
​

[FlightDetent]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/993x1100/variflight_stat_a6625b369fade8b6f008fd905da0c2965c9cd44c.png

[FlightDetent]

DMP: I can see how the quick succession of my posts painted a pro-china choice picture. Not intentional.

To the best of my knowledge, all you typed is thoroughly accurate. Before COVID the time between the first visit (SIM assessment + medical) and the first (ground training) paycheck was 9 months on average, never less than 6.

Today it is indefinite, no one is looking for people on the outside and even if the airlines did they are no longer allowed to sponsor work visa - now authorization from government offices somewhere is required. That alone is a real issue for people whose residence permit have expired. So big even the airlines themselves are having a hard time getting all the stamps for employees they want back.

No one signs for BCA or elsewhere. It's not an offer for which audience exists, only a description of the new pay structure. And then again, I feel the same about the deal as you do. Previously the training pay with BCA and their brethren was 350-400 USD/day = 12k as opposed to 4k now. Looking at the other figures above, the rest of the contract was taxidermized in a similar manner.

The reality is, for a jobless there is still nowhere to go (save for US folk), getting re-called is the best one could hope for. Some will take the deal available in China now, and some will refuse it. This only applies to those previously employed, none of whom would ever consider coming on today's terms.

Hence my reference to WZZ, in reaction to fatbus' post. The situation seems exactly identical. It only applies to an unknown small little number of individuals who are already present / stuck in the region. Given the choice of that or no employment at all, there will be takers. For those returning to PRC, glancing at the paycheck will be sorrowful but not eye-watering.

What counts the most is regaining currency.

[snak]

Apparently Xiamen is recruiting again skippers on 787 fleet...any info?

[Rie]

Apparently Xiamen is recruiting again skippers on 787 fleet...any info?
12000rmb a month, $230usd an hour once on the line. 12k rmb+$200 usd a day in ground training upping to 300usd a day on line training. This is the latest scale I have received from a recruiter.

Requirements:
Accept B777/787 type rating
Under 56y

Due to the restrictions of quarantine policy and visa application, there will be priorities and preference for screening arrangement:

No.1 Candidates who are now already in China;

No.2 Candidates who can apply visa without PU letter and are willing to cover the hotel cost for quarantine period;

No.3 Candidates who need PU letter to apply visa and are willing to cover the hotel cost for quarantine period;

No.4 others

[FlightDetent]

12 k USD/m on yearly average if my sums are correct. Buyer also beware the new thing in China is quoting salaries in gross.

[RG500]

Apparently Xiamen is recruiting again skippers on 787 fleet...any info?

If selected, you will become a relief Captain, but never a PIC unless they let you loose on a domestic route which is doubtful due to CAAC route/airport restrictions for foreigners.

[FlightDetent]

The foreign pilot restrictions of late are said to have been relaxed about a month ago back where they used to be.

Regardless, the chart for international traffic paints a picture nowhere close to normality. 20% at best these days, is it?

[Turkpilot]

Flight detent: I do not for one second question your figures, but the rather large devil is in the detail. Were you to sign for BCA tomorrow, you may be called to china and not see a dime of any sort until several months after you show up. first, you wont be commuting at all in the current environment, so expect a min of 8 months away. As much as the press is full of stories about how Covid measures are loosening, as far as international travel is concerned, the screw tightens every day with no sign of relaxation, your gonna spend one month unpaid, sorry make that in debt paying for quarantine in a room. After that there will be months of courses, sims, stupid medicals (I believe if you contract covid you are a goner for life as far as caac is concerned). You will need to tolerate punishment for landing over 1.5g, lightning strikes etc. One lightning strike? no pay. you wont fly for a month. Personally, going to china on an hour deal is not doable, you need fixed pay.

I have heard this too about if you have contracted covid you can never join. Is there any documentation in fact on this or just rumour?

[HeavyPanda]

What are the current rules for on-duty pilots returning to China from layover abroad? I know the layover is hotel confinement, but what's the deal when returning to base?

[FlightDetent]

Same as anyone, 2+1 (weeks). Unless there's a local (temporary) rule which could add +1 on both sides.

COVID seems to be 6 months grounding, but the airline will terminate you in the meantime. Licence transfer not possible because you did not finish the contract.

[AT3]

What are the current rules for on-duty pilots returning to China from layover abroad? I know the layover is hotel confinement, but what's the deal when returning to base?
Few backdoor swabs and you good to go!