PTSD among drone operators [Archive]

Martin the Martian

13th Jul 2015, 09:50

Very interesting article this.

Drone operators risk mental trauma, says RAF commander - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33384526)

What stood out for me is the mention of all-year ops:

Wing Cdr Killeen said the potential for psychological and emotional impact on drone operators was "far greater than it ever was with a manned cockpit".

"You've got that resolution where you know exactly what it is that's on the other end of your crosshairs," he said.

"Reaper has that resolution but it's magnified by the fact that we're airborne for hours and hours and we don't do four-month tours."

Instead, he said, it was an all-year-round job, adding: "That's where the greater potential for this [post-traumatic stress disorder] comes from."

I've known a few guys with PTSD issues from overseas ops, and they all say that the lack of decompression time has been part of the problem. With technology making it possible for somebody to go to work, fly a mission and witness some unpleasant sights before going home for tea with the family, it's surely likely to get worse because there will be NO decompression time. Does the RAF need to look into how members of the emergency services deal with trauma on a daily basis and apply similar techniques? And should anybody be doing this on an all-year round basis?

I'm all for doing things that will bring less risk to our service personnel, but the potential for problems in the future is something we must look at now.

Lima Juliet

13th Jul 2015, 10:38

PTSD at home is not a new phenomena for the RAF. Plenty of aircrew in WWII flew combat missions and then returned home with their family. Also, many have frightened themselves fartless during a training mission only to return home the same day.

The Mess Bar used to be a great decompression tool, although that seems to be out of favour with the Sport Billies and the blood-alcohol nazis. However, having a couple of pints and a natter to your mates before going home would certainly help (not 'wife beater' like Stella or Wobbly, though!).

The Sqn needs to manage the PTSD and if that means having a few beds and a bar on the Sqn to allow guys/gals under pressure the option to stay over and 'get it off their chests' then that has to be a good thing.

Finally, the days of decompression at AKI during HERRICK were utter nonsense in my mind. After a 4-6 month stint 'on the job' I just wanted to get home - indeed the idea of going on the lash in Cyprus with the lads introduced more problems at home than they might cure in my circumstances! Luckily I managed to engineer a way of avoiding them for both of my tours...

LJ

Rotate too late

13th Jul 2015, 10:47

Davef68

13th Jul 2015, 11:52

An aside on a serious subject, but the Wingco sounds terribly like Alastair campbell!

Buster Hyman

13th Jul 2015, 12:32

I fully understand the risk is there but why turn it into a p---ing contest by saying it's harder than in the cockpit, truth is that each person has their own threshold that means it needs to be monitored individually ( meaning it's down to the person and Chain to manage).
It's certainly helps being detached from the action, and therefore , maybe there are ways to deal with it, how that is done, I hope it is done with compassion.....
^^^This^^^

There's no need for comparisons. PTSD is what it is for each individual. I know & accept that I can't compare my fireground experiences with combat veterans (and I never would) but out of the 5 guys on my truck, only the driver suffered genuine PTSD symptoms. Whilst I'm lucky, it still took time to rule out PTSD, but we experienced the same life threatening situation.

Pontius Navigator

13th Jul 2015, 12:36

I don't think you even need to experience an event at first hand to suffer PTSD.

Rotate too late

13th Jul 2015, 13:21

There's a lot of talk about after the fact, I'm hoping it comes as no surprise to an operator exactly what he/she is about to undertake and therefore the necessary prep is carried out. Training, training, training.....7 p's, train hard fight easy....call it what you will. If they are talking about it, I certainly hope they are following up with actions, but I take issue with this harder than the cockpit nonsense, they do a Stirling job, no need to undermine others.

Cheeks

13th Jul 2015, 14:19

I take issue with this harder than the cockpit nonsense,I don't know who you're taking issue with, because nobody has said that.

Archimedes

13th Jul 2015, 14:29

I suspect that the way in which the BBC covered it, particularly on I-player, might lead to people inferring that this is what was being said.

If you look at OC13's position on this, though - from his ACSC research paper, via the article derived from it which appeared in Air Power Review and through other comments he's made - you'll see that the point he has always attempted to make is that certain commentators deny the possibility of anyone flying/operating an RPAS having any sort of attachment to what they see on the ground.

This, of course, is part of a line of argument put forward by some who seek to suggest that 'drone warriors' are, in effect, dispassionate video-game warriors lacking compassion and understanding of what they're doing and which has given rise to the whole 'drone wars' /'killer robots' debate whereby a number of commentators are able to postulate the notion that the 'drone' is a weapon of dubious legality because of the attitude and approach of the operators who are able to kill at will, with complete detachment and without any dangers or stresses.

And I rather think that it is that line of argument which he is attempting to challenge - not to suggest that it is somehow 'harder' than being in a cockpit. The problem, of course, being that the BBC coverage doesn't quite convey this...

Rotate too late

13th Jul 2015, 14:30

To clarify I meant harder in psychological impact terms.....I just cant understand why he would say this
"Wing Cdr Killeen said the potential for psychological and emotional impact on drone operators was "far greater than it ever was with a manned cockpit".

Martin the Martian

13th Jul 2015, 15:29

ShotOne

13th Jul 2015, 17:53

For an idea of why this is an issue, Google "confessions of a drone warrior". RPAS pilots get to know their targets in a way unthinkable before; watch their lives with their families and children for days or weeks, watch in close-up the kill, survivors writhing in agony, first aid attempts then grieving relatives collecting body parts. Then home to tea with the missus. It's 100% understandable that there are likely to be issues with PTSD.

ShyTorque

13th Jul 2015, 17:57

Do they get treatment for piles?

downsizer

13th Jul 2015, 18:11

Why does everything have to be a race to the bottom these days? Who's to say whose PTSD is more valid FFS:mad:

Pontius Navigator

13th Jul 2015, 18:13

ST, uncalled for banter.

BEagle

13th Jul 2015, 18:28

PTSD for drone operators surely means "Pass the sodding doughnuts!"...

Because we won GW1 with so few casualties (and MoD refused to accept 'Gulf War Syndrome'), no-one seems to have given much concern to how those who faced nightly Scud attacks and were ordered to take experimental anti-anthrax drugs, NAPs etc felt after getting back to 'normal' work....where the PONTIs had been safely polishing the chairs for 6 months.

A colleague who'd been shot down in the South Atlantic had similar problems and was marched off to the funny farm until his wonderful wife went down and kicked ar$e at Wroughton.....

Although a generous MoD did tell us "You aren't allowed to wear the medals you were awarded by the King of Saudi Arabia and the Emir of Kuwait".... Thanks, chaps....

PTSD after sitting in a tin box at Waddo? YGBSM!!

MPN11

13th Jul 2015, 18:33

I have an acquaintance who was a "Combat PortaCabin" operative ... I shall try to seek a personal input.

taxydual

13th Jul 2015, 18:46

Easy to solve.

Let the Drone Driver do his thing (wearing the obligatory flying suit), then, come the moment of truth, let a trained member of the ARMED FORCES of the UK press the trigger.

Like it or not (and if you don't like it, find another job) the RAF are part of the ARMED FORCES not some part of the hugs and cuddles brigade.

And before someone has a 'go' at me, I have had pointy bang things aimed in my direction and have fired pointy bang things back. Not nice, but that's what I was paid for after signing up to join an ARMED FORCE.

ShyTorque

13th Jul 2015, 18:47

ST, uncalled for banter.

PTSD or piles can affect any of us. Been there, both ailments.

Hangarshuffle

13th Jul 2015, 18:53

Hasn't Hollywood made a film about this recently?
Are they not approaching it from the wrong angle? The training before qualifying, and most of all the grading and screening beforehand should rule out people who are simply not suitable. Did they look at this in the grading?
Condition people to it better? If that is even possible.
Shorten the tours? Insert compulsory breaks and further psychological screening?
It must be awful, an awful job.

Think the person who suggested bars and having a few drinks to talk it out a bit is bang on the money. The villages around my way had many working men's clubs which converted into Comrades Clubs shortly after WW1. An awful lot of stuff was talked out by ordinary men over pints among their fellow old comrades. Its old fashioned but to a large degree it actually worked very well.
Nothing at all to do with this but a story. Mother' family lived next door to a harmless chap who happened to be a Army reservist in 1939. He was called up and sent to France, from where he was evacuated at Dunkirk. He was so horrified and traumatised by what he had seen he was immediately discharged and returned home, where he spent five weeks upstairs in his bedroom, lying on his bed, curtains closed. Gradually, he ventured out and back into some sort of normality.
So perhaps conversely an entire break from all military routine and life is also an answer?
But I know nothing. Truly hope these people are well looked after. They're doing this for us.

Lonewolf_50

13th Jul 2015, 19:05

ShyTorque
Do they get treatment for piles?
downsizer
Why does everything have to be a race to the bottom these days? Who's to say whose PTSD is more valid FFS
These two posts appeared in sequence, though I don't think the second was an answer to the first.

But I did chuckle.

Willard Whyte

13th Jul 2015, 21:16

PTSD after sitting in a tin box at Waddo? YGBSM!!

I spent a number of years at Waddo and can quite understand why people there might have a mental breakdown.

And before anyone gets on their high horse I speak from (very) personal experience.

AGS Man

14th Jul 2015, 06:23

I remember a story about a Battle of Britain Veteran showing a group of Social Workers around the Battle of Britain Museum. He could see that one young lady was dying to ask him a question and she finally blurted out, did you ever get shot down. He replied that yes he did one morning and was flying again that afternoon. She was amazed and asked "didn't you receive counselling"?
I think his reply was that his counselling was a kick up the ass by his boss and told to bring the Hurricane back next time!
True or not I don't know but I think it shows how PTSD can affect different people in different ways.

ShotOne

14th Jul 2015, 07:01

While I appreciate some may be upset at being denied permission to wear foreign medals, that hardly compares with watching a ten year old child trying vainly to stop the spray of blood from a wound you've just inflicted on his father. Thankfully the hierarchy apparently do appreciate the extreme stress and that PTSD isn't associated solely with personal physical risk.

There is another big source of stress here, brought on by the very close monitoring of every decision and action of a RPAS pilot; that of legal accountability. It is entirely feasible that some lawyer even in ten or fifteen years time after scanning the slow-motion replay of an engagement may decide someone needs to be prosecuted.

camelspyyder

14th Jul 2015, 07:20

Beagle

The modern RAF is also quite familiar with IDF.

The 18 Scuds fired at Dhahran and the 7 at KKMC would have been a similar total number to 2 weeks worth of incoming at Basra, and that went on for years without the luxury of the defensive Patriot umbrella you(?) were sat under.

I guess for many fleets it must have been difficult getting out of the 70's flying club mentality and heading off to a real conflict.;)

NutLoose

14th Jul 2015, 08:58

A drone operator may have to remain on station with cameras zoomed in on the target they have just hit, and therefore have to witness the immediate aftermath of what they have done. By comparison a fast jet crew would not be able to see everything in the same manner simply because they do not have the equipment to enable them to do so.

That's what OC 13 is saying, I think, and I can see where he is coming from.

I am not deriding that they may suffer from it, but then you could watch similar on Live Leaks, so does that mean viewers of that channel could also suffer from PTSD from viewing the strike and aftermath?

alfred_the_great

14th Jul 2015, 09:44

sargs

14th Jul 2015, 10:35

BEagle said:

PTSD for drone operators surely means "Pass the sodding doughnuts!"...

Because we won GW1 with so few casualties (and MoD refused to accept 'Gulf War Syndrome'), no-one seems to have given much concern to how those who faced nightly Scud attacks and were ordered to take experimental anti-anthrax drugs, NAPs etc felt after getting back to 'normal' work....where the PONTIs had been safely polishing the chairs for 6 months.

A colleague who'd been shot down in the South Atlantic had similar problems and was marched off to the funny farm until his wonderful wife went down and kicked ar$e at Wroughton.....

Although a generous MoD did tell us "You aren't allowed to wear the medals you were awarded by the King of Saudi Arabia and the Emir of Kuwait".... Thanks, chaps....

PTSD after sitting in a tin box at Waddo? YGBSM!!

As usual, BEagle can't waste an opportunity to display his prejudices against "drones" and "drone operators." It's interesting that in his mind, PTSD can be suffered by "those who faced nightly Scud attacks," those who "took experimental drugs," somebody who'd been "shot down in the South Atlantic" (although he was a "colleague" so presumably worthy in BEagle's mind of suffering PTSD) and even those who "aren't allowed to wear their medals." Now, as just an (ex) "drone operator" myself, and not a member of any of the above groups, I can't comment on whether or not the people above will develop PTSD. I've seen enough to know it's possible though.

What I can say categorically is that PTSD is an ever-present risk to those who observe the sort of operations carried out by RPAS crews (including the Int person in the back of the cabin). It's not always the obviously difficult sights that they see that necessarily provides the trigger - as others have said, it can be a very simple, innocuous thing. I won't go into detail for obvious reasons, but I'm aware of a person who operated Reaper who was quite disturbed by the sight of a potential target enjoying lunch and a bit of family down time with his young daughters - an activity we watched at length, and in some detail. This clearly resonated with my colleague, a man who had a family of similar composition. When we 'applied force' some time later it had an effect on him which I'm almost certain will come back to haunt him in future. As others on here have alluded to, the combination of shift patterns and the desire to return to the family at the end of a shift removes the traditional military "apply beer and sort out your problems" approach to getting these things straight in your mind before they have a chance to take root. Of course, I could be wrong - I'm not a psychologist and BEagle says that "drone operators" can't get PTSD.

I don't want to get into the argument, if there is one, about manned vs unmanned and who is most at risk of PTSD. However, I know from experience that PTSD can be a serious problem for those associated with RPAS. It's not well understood, but thankfully there are decent people out there, like OC 13 (who, by the way, has both manned and unmanned experience in Afghanistan Ops), doing their level best to make people sit up and take notice of one aspect of a problem which frankly should concern all of us.

Finally, a colleague of mine prematurely retired from RPAS ops due to the stress it caused him. He was a member of Taxy Dual's "ARMED FORCES" who had years of Hangarshuffle's "grading" gained during previous fast jet ops. The way he was treated by some of our mutual "colleagues," openly voicing their disbelief of his problem, made me ashamed to be associated with them. For Taxy Dual's benefit, he was selected and trained to be a member of the ARMED FORCES and for many years he carried out his duties as a member of the ARMED FORCES (including applying lethal force when required), but in the end it got to him. He asked to be, and was, moved on, but not before some took the opportunity to openly express their arrogant disregard for his mental condition. If any of you feel the same way as some of his so-called colleagues, and some of those on this forum, then you are all a little less of a person than he is.

Training Risky

14th Jul 2015, 11:53

I experienced personal risk to life over the last 16 years as a pilot and an Int officer. I didn't reach the front line as a pilot, but had a few close shaves with airproxes, weather and faulty FADECs(!). As an Int guy I look back at how I dealt with incoming rocket fire in Basra. It was frightening at the time but we learned to live with it, all while prosecuting the enemy with ISTAR and kinetic effects. For a while after I got back I was a bit jumpy around fire alarms and suchlike, but alcoholic decompression and cameraderie helped a hell of a lot.

I also had the chance to experience a bit of what 13 Sqn do now. I didn't observe a target's pattern of life all day surrounded by civ cas, but I watched from a comfy CAOC as many members of the Taliban put-putted their way across the desert on motorbikes, minding their own business (sort of) only to watch them disapppear in a cloud of black and white mist. Did I feel jumpy or sad about that? No. Chalk em up.

This will all be a pleasant memory in a few months.

Best of luck to those who stay in this undermanned RAF to sort out the myriad crises flaring up across 3 continents. (Sorry for my part in helping to cause some of them...!):ok:

BEagle

14th Jul 2015, 12:03

Training Risky wrote: ...I watched from a comfy CAOC as many members of the Taliban put-putted their way across the desert on motorbikes, minding their own business (sort of) only to watch them disappear in a cloud of black and white mist. Did I feel jumpy or sad about that? No. Chalk em up.

Quite so - do the crime, pay the time.

Little 'counselling' was given to those poor buggers who were exposed to 'the players' in Norn Irn, or suffered in the South Atlantic, or in GW1 or in all Tony Bliar's 'bring a bottle' wars..... It was often a case of "Oh, you're back, are you? Guess what, you're SDO this weekend" etc.

Now the problems are perhaps better understood, but is watching drone imagery really in the same league as facing direct hostile action?

Mahogany_Bomber

14th Jul 2015, 12:46

Some of the comments on this thread making fatuous comparisons between tasks, theatres of operation or eras are contemptible in the extreme and verge on a return to a culture of using terms such as "man-up" or LMF. The mechanism by which a serviceperson begins suffering with post-traumatic stress is irrelevant, what's important is that it is recognised and treated, whilst concurrently the risk of others suffering in the same way is mitigated/minimised or managed within the bounds of practicability.

As for BEagle, words fail me. I can only assume that you are being deliberately contrary in order to provoke debate. That, or you are just an out of touch curmudgeon displaying a complete and studied absence of understanding of the modern operating environment.

sargs

14th Jul 2015, 12:55

BEagle:

You still don’t get it, do you? PTSD is not all about being shot at. It’s an anxiety disorder caused by any one or a combination of things – just go to the NHS website here (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/pages/introduction.aspx) and see for yourself. The same web site says it “is estimated to affect about 1 in every 3 people who have a traumatic experience.” You’re right, little counselling has been offered to those unfortunates in the past – over the years, we have had various responses to PTSD ranging from people trying their best to help all the way down to shooting sufferers at dawn during WW1. Nobody, anywhere, is claiming that RPAS ops are “in the same league as facing direct hostile action” but try, just for once, to set aside your prejudice and recognise that there are many ways to acquire a disorder such as PTSD.

Training Risky:

Watching (or causing) people to “disappear in a cloud of black and white mist” didn’t make me sad or jumpy either, so good for you. Perhaps you are one of those who only watched the “interesting five minutes” before getting back to writing those pesky detachment reports on your staff to while away those long night-shift hours. It appears you and I are the lucky 2 in every 3 people who appear not to suffer from this condition - please spare a thought for the other unfortunate 1 in 3, he or she might just be a friend of yours.

Avtur

14th Jul 2015, 14:49

Well said Sargs, on all counts.

BEagle

14th Jul 2015, 16:10

sargs, I don't for one minute think that there is no such thing as 'PTSD'.

Also, it can happen a long, long time after the event era. Some keep certain things, such as recurring nightmares and flashbacks, to themselves though - probably some generational thing when the 'stiff upper lip' was supposed to be the universal solution, or when people simply kept themselves to themselves as best they could.

Not that I'm saying that those days were any better ....

Mr C Hinecap

14th Jul 2015, 18:59

That, or you are just an out of touch curmudgeon displaying a complete and studied absence of understanding of the modern operating environment.

How very astute of you.

Just because the MoD didn't understand something 30 years ago does not mean it should not and does not understand something a little better today. Many of the Stiff Upper Lippers on here probably served when smoking, lead paint and asbestos didn't kill you.
Oh. But they did. We just didn't know any better at the time.

Some keep certain things, such as recurring nightmares and flashbacks, to themselves though - probably some generational thing when the 'stiff upper lip' was supposed to be the universal solution, or when people simply kept themselves to themselves as best they could.

Bottling it up and not talking about it is somehow better?

Jimlad1

14th Jul 2015, 19:46

I must confess to being dismayed at the attitudes displayed here by some posters. I have been privileged to have met 13 Sqn and their hugely professional team.

My own take is that we have yet to fully grasp the enormity of what we're asking the average drone operator to do. They are expected to spend days or weeks acquiring a hugely intimate understanding of a person or persons, often for it to end in legally sanctioned murder at their hands. I have no issue with the use of force, but I think its easy to forget that this is not an act that many would expect to be involved in.

By this I mean that the majority of HM Forces will serve with enormous distinction, but are unlikely to directly pull the trigger on an enemy combatant, and even less so one who they've watched from afar for so long.

The challenge facing the operators is that they are expected to work in a very stressful environment, doing hugely challenging work (and I suggest to anyone who doubts this spend time with them at work and you'll quickly realise the challenges they face). There is no 'gozome bird' or chuff chart for them to use, nor the mental release of knowing its a tour and that they are there to work without distraction for 6 months prior to some leave and family time.

Instead they are expected to spend a sustained period of time going to work in the morning from home, handling some very challenging work then going home in the evening to little Timmy falling off his bike or a domestic issue. The sudden shift in environments is not mentally easy and there is doubtless a lot of mental pressure placed on them as they shift between two very different roles. Arguably the pressure they are under is different to any other element of HM Forces, at least since WW2 in that they are engaged in daily kinetic operations from the home base.

This isn't about who has a bigger willy for being shot at, its about recognising that we have people who are effectively working in combat conditions (e.g. flying missions, releasing ordnance) day in day out for years at a time, while being expected to be a live in partner / spouse / parent throughout.

This is a whole new challenge for the RAF and we have to ensure it is handled properly - e.g. good mental health support, good access to counselling and no stigma or 'LMF' tag attached to those who no longer want to do it.

We have to get this right.

Bigbux

14th Jul 2015, 20:15

For what it's worth - and I don't claim to have any personal connection with it, the articles I've read on the matter describe the term "PTSD" as a broad one that encompasses many manifestations.

While some on this forum have concentrated on the stress induced by "personal danger" ala WW1 shell shock, there is a sizeable body of evidence on the effect of transgressing the intra-species killing inhibition that most successful species (homo sapiens included) are equipped with.

The figure 11 target (an identifiable human image) is used to increase the likelihood of a soldier actually aiming and firing at the enemy, by de-sensitising the intra-species killing inhibition. The same effect is achieved by letting the young play video games where humans are killed. The same effects not achieved when the target is a fictional non-human creature.

It has been proposed that the reticence that 95% of have in killing another human is increased by the proximity to the actual event. Authorising a target is likely to have less effect than using a bayonet or dagger to kill your target.

From this proposition came the argument that snipers would not be affected as much as an infantryman - but the argument was countered as snipers often see the effect of their shot in great detail. There are also inconsistencies in data as snipers are usually selected through arduous courses that play a part in their conditioning.

So where does that leave our drone operators?

Am I wrong in suggesting that they are aviators with no great driving ambition as the primary reason for career choice (as with most military aviators I know) to close with and kill an enemy?

Add to that the circumstances that allow them to identify in great detail with their target while having to conduct life as normal, as opposed to being segregated from normality and surrounded by war-going peers, and should it be any wonder that some have decided to call it a day? And what next for them? Surely leaving the job is an early symptom?

Where's the team spirit? Just because you can't see the wound, doesn't mean there isn't one. Surely the Service would be keen to show some humanity and responsibility to our front line (and they are), particularly after the MoD have been so recently criticised for the intransigence that lead to the deaths of 3 good men in training.

Flugplatz

14th Jul 2015, 22:17

Sounds like they need some de-sensitisation training, maybe some time spent with the grunts and being exposed to the reality of the lives of their protagonists and what they are capable of doing?

We've all read the reports of good-guy Afghans turning on their coallition trainers or in our own recent cases in the UK, seemingly devoted family men going to blow up the tube or off to join ISIS. I am saying that what they may witness on the drone close-up is probably just part of the story. The reality is that the even unscrupulous killers are quite capable of doing the everyday sorts of domestic things that they are seeing, but then equally capable of then going out and planting an IED. Some time seeing the reality of that environment or at least recieving good, immersive training could reveal another sort of aptitude or serve as a reality-check before they get to do the job for real.

It doesn't help that the RAF (for good reason admittedly) selects heavily on aircrew aptitude, but maybe neglects some of the character traits that may actually be needed? Lots of the pilots I have met have been great guys; highly achieving, intelligent and sociable, enjoying the challenge of flying demanding, complex aircraft and likeing the squadron comaraderie and crew-room banter. Parents are proud, friends are impressed, but in a lot of ways some of those I have met seem to have actually led very sheltered lives with no real adversity apart from that which has been self-imposed. Maybe it is time that the RAF takes more account of what traits are really desirable and how best to identify them? how ruthless are they, how are they likely to bear up and how well do they really understand everything that the job entails? The old joke about the RAF being the best flying club in the world sounds kind of hollow from what the previous posters have been describing, yet I have met people that on a certain level, really seem to believe it. Maybe a different, rather less pleasant sort of person with adequate flying skills would be a better fit?

I truly believe that anyone can get PTSD, however I think maybe a bit of a change of emphasis, more rigourous screening and immersive training would actually make better sense considering what they are being asked to do on our behalf.

Flug

Selatar

15th Jul 2015, 00:33

I seem to have had a similar career to training risky. Excluding a suicidal EFATO at Salmesbury when I was 17 my scariest time on the ground was in Basra in 07. It in no way compares to what our combat troops see and do but it effected me for some time.

I'm out now but I spent a lot of time following people from afar courtesy of the likes of 13 and trying to kill them. It's not Hawkinge 1940 but it's how the RAF do business. Neither is it youtube. I can still recall with lightening clarity an SA-3 crew in 03 going about their business as my colleagues and I organised then witnessed their death. The ARMED FORCES are just that and despite the Reds and imminently privitised yellow helicopters, violence is core business. 1997 was the last year the RAF did not kill the enemy.

I wish 13 and their people the best

Fortissimo

15th Jul 2015, 07:09

Flugplatz,

You can't screen for PTSD vulnerability, just as you can't screen for someone who may develop depression at some stage. The tests don't exist. And if you expose people to a traumatic event by way of training you are just as likely to cause an injury as if the event was combat-related. As for immersion, that is exactly what the Reaper operators are getting and it is perhaps one of the reasons why some are affected by the experience.

I am not sure what you are getting at with your 'real adversity' comment? Do you mean physical hardship, life-threatening illness, personal tragedy or social deprivation? Or do you mean spending time in the field? None of these things will make you immune from the mental impact of a traumatic event. It is the nature of the event that creates the stress, not the environment. These people are having to take life frequently and that is not easy in any circumstances. It is one of our natural taboos, hence the trauma - killing is not a normal human activity. Sadly, it is part of military business and it will always affect people in different ways.

Flugplatz

15th Jul 2015, 21:43

Fortissimo, I'm afraid I don't fundamentally agree with some of your opinions - the facts in my experience don't really bear them out. I am not saying you can build immunity to PTSD, but you can raise the threshold to trauma.

There are all types of psychological tests and stress tests that can predict peoples likely succeptibility to depression and other mental illnesses. What they can't do is predict or guarantee that any one person won't get PTSD or depression at some point - if the stressors are big enough even the toughest will crumble. I don't really see the drone operators in that category but neither will they be completely unaffected.

How do you reduce someone's succeptability to a stress reaction to a traumatic event? You make that event seem to be non-traumatic, even commonplace and acceptable. This goes on naturally all over the world, usually in third-world countries where death and hardship are a way of life and infant mortality rates are extremely high. We have all seen the reports of 14 year olds stabbing each other in London estates over trivial turf-wars or drug disputes; they've grown up in a brutal, uncaring culture with a completlely different set of values to most of society.

I am not proposing that the RAF recruit the dross of society, pyschos or people who have been brutalised through hardship; but they could do more to prepare these pilots so that their trauma threshold is raised and they are more mentally ready for what they are going to see. I admit I have difficulty in imagining a harder group than trained RAF pilots to be able to tailor a specifc course for, but I am sure a suitable package could be put together - there is enough expertise out there.

Some people will no doubt be traumatised by this sort of training and battle inocculation but for the majority it is perfectly possible to change their perspective to a meaningful degree. My experience in the Army (where this sort of training is far more prevalent it seems) has shown me that the right training does make a difference, certainly in terms of being able to continue doing the job. It is vital that this is done as group otherwise the effect on the individual can do more harm than good. A fair few Regiments such as the Paras do select and train along these lines, they look for and test for aggression, and mental and physical toughness. I would say that there is more of a problem with PTSD when a serviceman leaves the services and doesn't have the group support, or when the exposure to trauma goes on too long.

Someone mentioned the 'tour' lengths of drone pilots, and we have all heard about the '20 mission' rule for bomber pilots during WW2. The top brass should be thinking along these lines for the drone pilots and not just considering it to be more always less stressful than a deployment to theatre. Nevertheless they do need to select and prepare them better and not start to treat it as another day in the office or rely on their intelligence to somehow 'ignore' what they are seeing.

Flug

ExGrunt

16th Jul 2015, 19:10

First thanks to MtM for starting a very interesting debate.

As an ex infantryman, I have to say I tend towards the Beag's view of the world that by comparison a war sat in your chair with the main risk being a blistered finger from your controller or a burnt lip from hot coffee is infinitely preferable to having to deal with blood and snot at, often very, close range. Especially as there is no sound - believe me you will never forget someone screaming for their mummy.

That being said, I don't underestimate that playing god can really sh!t can your mental health. The issue is how to deal with it.

What the regimental structure of the army did was create very tight knit teams with close bonds formed over many years of shared service. Many the late night war story session in the bar was in fact a very good way of relieving the stress of active service. I firmly believe that to understand and help with what people suffer you need to share a similar experience.

EG

alfred_the_great

16th Jul 2015, 21:01

First thanks to MtM for starting a very interesting debate.

As an ex infantryman, I have to say I tend towards the Beag's view of the world that by comparison a war sat in your chair with the main risk being a blistered finger from your controller or a burnt lip from hot coffee is infinitely preferable to having to deal with blood and snot at, often very, close range. Especially as there is no sound - believe me you will never forget someone screaming for their mummy.

EG

But that may be part of the problem - an experience you describe is processable as "war" and helps you understand and deal with the thing you have done.

Walking into an room, killing someone (who you may have watched 8 hours a day for a week or so), watching the aftermath, and then walking out of your room and getting in the car home to play with your kids, can create huge cognitive problems, because it's not easily described as "war" - just look at the comments in this thread.

In many ways, it would be better if they "deployed" to their "room" (albeit a much bigger environment) for 6 months, with the same people, allowing for a more 'natural' transition from "killing" to "normality".

Pontius Navigator

17th Jul 2015, 07:50

Many the late night war story session in the bar was in fact a very good way of relieving the stress of active service. I firmly believe that to understand and help with what people suffer you need to share a similar experience.

EG
But unlike operating in theatre most people in the bar (if any) at Waddo will be non-operational and lack empathy as they will not have experienced similar.

ATG-In many ways, it would be better if they "deployed" to their "room" (albeit a much bigger environment) for 6 months, with the same people, allowing for a more 'natural' transition from "killing" to "normality".

Anyone who has served on a sqn will know how they have little in common with any other Sqn, even of the same type. ATG has a tough, but probably realistic solution. I know, even after some peacetime sorties getting home but unable to communicate with the wife; she also trained not to probe.

StopStart

17th Jul 2015, 10:09

I have good mates who are RPAS operators and from talking to them it just sounds like a really weird job and one that I certainly wouldn't like to do.

I wonder if the extra layer of stress/strangeness comes from knowing that you, the operator, are under absolutely no personal risk at all? Almost every other form of military combat comes with that element of personal risk but as an RPAS operator there is no kill-or-be-killed. Just the distant dispassionate dispatching of the enemy.

No matter what all you cold-steel-it-were-tuff-in-the-army-in-my-day might say, this is a whole new realm of warfare and if you employ intelligent and thoughtful people to do it then they're probably going to think about it intelligently. I know I'd struggle with a job that involved me killing people and where the only personal risk I faced was the possibility of an an RTA on the 95.....

Fox3WheresMyBanana

17th Jul 2015, 10:38

The personal risk element adds adrenaline. I would expect this enables the typical human to cope better with traumatic events. Also, my personal experience is that I was always too busy to be scared whilst flying.

Another element is the utility of the killings - is there a subconscious effect from the effectiveness, and for that matter the morality, of what is being carried out? I do not wish to debate the absolute morality and effectiveness, but those perceived by the operators, and those perceived by the public at large. Vietnam probably has some lessons here.
What You Have Is Probably Worse Than PTSD (http://www.vietnow.com/what-you-have-is-probably-worse-than-ptsd/)

I should think compartmentalisation as a means of handling the stress is somewhat difficult when you blow up an imam and his 3 kids, then see a family group dressed the same in the cereals aisle at Sainsbury's 3 hours later.

The PTSD doesn't surprise me in the least, and I have every sympathy for the operators. The politicians have started stupid wars, penny-pinched the Armed Forces to set up this semi-civilianised form of warfare with all its incongruities, and then lost the wars. It's a wonder everyone isn't crazy.