B777 wingtip damaged in LOS

[QCM]

Emirates Plane Collides With Hak-air Plane During Take-off At Lagos Airport -

During take-off? Ridiculous comment:ugh:....taxi-out...

[SOPS]

Lagos is a total nightmare.... In the air and on the ground. I sincerely hope the crew are treated with compassion over this one.

[ruserious]

Yep, during taxi, looks like about a 2 meters of the 777 right wingtip has gone into the other aircraft rudder and tail

[bigdaviet]

Link with more detals? Thanks.

[Kenai]

http://twitter.com/jackflyboy/status/618381888055586817

ouch...feel for the crew...they were on a narrow taxiway from the looks of the 2nd pic

[bigdaviet]

Yes, also feel for the crew.

Edited to add: People on twitter saying that there was a wing walker and he gave the all clear!

[P7xkk]

Wing walker? In Lagos? Hmmm a bit unlikely, even in daylight. This was at 2130 last night yes?

[four engine jock]

Sorry to say this but I think the crew screwed the pooch.
looks like the tried to stay as far left as they could and hit the tail of B737.
If in doute ???? STOP
Never trust the wing wing walkers in Africa.
We had one once taxi us into the Jetway in FOOL. After we hit the jetway with our right wing, he ran away never to be found.

[johnnyramjet]

Looks like two experts will be eating humble pie very soon.

[johnnyramjet]

I am talking about P7xkk and FHJock, not the crew

[P7xkk]

Johnny, the sweepstake has already started, sad, but true.
The only potential saving grace is that the 737 was not parked correctly - it was not being pushed back at the time of the accident. :=

But i'm with Jock, if in doubt, stop.

[fatbus]

Why did he go so far off the yellow line to even try and get past?
Stop, park brake on , get towed if required.
This might not end well!

[johnnyramjet]

"Wing walker? In Lagos? Hmmm a bit unlikely, even in daylight. This was at 2130 last night yes?"


If you don't know the facts P7xkk, why say anything at all.
How do you know that the crew did not stop, waited for a wing walker, even though you say that was unlikely, then moved forward from their stopped position under the guidance of the wing walker.


"Sorry to say this but I think the crew screwed the pooch."


Then you have FEJock giving his full judgment on the crew.

[P7xkk]

Because this is a forum, and the whole purpose of it is to post.
If you don't like the posts, that is not my issue.

And as for Lagos, when you confront the guy with the AK and it costs you money just to use the Jacks. well, says it all.:hmm:

[johnnyramjet]

Wow, I never said I did not like your hypothetical post, I just asked a question.
Shouldn't we support our fellow pilots until we know the full story.

[P7xkk]

:O ok, lets wind this back a little eh. Messages are a little "dry" and can be mis-interpreted. Especially without the necessary punctuation :)

I agree with you though, we can't hang those fellas out to dry, and the purser is likely to get the tin tack anyway. Good job it was not a whale, or the shower attendants might be in shtuck too:ugh:

My outlook on drivers is getting slightly jaundiced at present, due to living amongst them. Sad, but true.

[johnnyramjet]

Yes, good idea. I agree, posts can be mis-interpreted. Good luck to all the crew and families, I am sure it is very stressful right now. Keeping in mind that they may be reading PPrune.
Take care P7xkk

[Stone_cold]

Actually JohnnyR , you did not initially ask a question . You stated Looks like two experts will be eating humble pie very soon .

If the 737 was stationary , then I am with those that say the crew may have screwed up and supposition is not judgement . Even if in your "defense" that there could be a possibility of them moving under the direction of a wing walker , would it absolve the PIC of all responsibility ? Union airline maybe , non-union ..????

Even your fellow EK colleague, Fatbus , had an opinion that this doesn't look good .

Discussing variables are not passing judgement and you seem to be the one who passed judgement with the above quote using "WILL" . Nothing in P7 and 4 eng posts condemned the crew definitively .

Humble pie ?

[Monarch Man]

Lagos airport is a disaster, for all the reasons we know and love.
Having been there recently on both the Freighter and the 200/300, I can attest that it makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck, much like Luanda does, and half a dozen other delightful African destinations.
Not wishing to sound holier than etc, it's days like this that we earn our money.
If you have ANY doubt, sod anyone else, it's your neck and license on the line, set the park brake, start the APU and shutdown, please don't try to be a hero and keep the show on the road. I'd rather explain my actions for being a justifiable nuisance than have to explain a collision with another parked or otherwise aircraft/obstruction.
I've done just as described previously in a number of places with EK and have never even been questioned.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Right Habibis, the aircraft was being actively marshalled at the time of the collision, hence the aircraft was left of the centreline. Also it obviously hit at pretty low speed, and hence still partially embedded in the tail of the 737.

Wing walkers may have helped I am guessing! but in Lagos, too funny! I wouldn't trust them anyhow.

Lets see how this pans out for the crew, inshallah they will be fine.

SyB :zzz:

[four engine jock]

Humble pie? Good one... Been in Africa to long.

johnnyramjet

Please!!!!
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that the crew taxied all the way to the left of the taxi way trying to avoid..
Plain and simple, if in doubt STOP.
This is just my opinion

[harry the cod]

Hindsight, they say, is a wonderful thing. True.

However, in our business with the frequent recurrent training pilots are mandated to undertake, the objective is to hopefully learn from others and avoid making those same mistakes again. Data shows that as an industry we must indeed be learning as accident and incident rates have declined steadily over the last 25 years. CRM training has, no doubt, played an integral part of this welcome improvement. Unfortunately though as humans, we will always find ourselves in situations that highlight our fallibility and these classic human factors events will be ever present, regardless of the amount of training undertaken. Professor James Reason's 'swiss cheese' model will always be around as long as we are.

So, I am not going to say what the crew did or didn't do correctly and I am not going to make a comment or judgement on their actions. I wasn't there! I do not know the full circumstances behind this event and neither does anyone else commenting on these forums at this stage, including the Company. The only people who do know what happened and why they took the decision they did is the crew themselves.

Making comments such as 'I wouldn't trust them anyway' (wing walkers) is one thing. Telling us what you'd actually do about it is quite another. So what would you do, shut down, disembark all the passengers on a narrow taxiway, leave the aircraft and get the engineer to sit in the seat while the aircraft is towed? Or stay on the aircraft while the engineer is in your seat? Or maybe the F/O could be the wing walker while you taxi? Or, perhaps, shut down, stay in the seat and trust the tug driver? Or forget waiting for the tug and just trust a wing walker and taxi slow? Or maybe better still, just go sick for every future LOS and any other destination that becomes an incident?

Decisions, decisions. Your call.......CAPTAIN!

Harry

[lfbb]

Sad to see people seating in front of a computer criticizing the crew and not actually being there....:= Also makes me wonder how many here are wide-body captains, so they know what they are actually commenting about. (I'm not)
Imagine you are taxing at night, now you are in doubt if there is enough clearance to go thru, you stop:

- Clear on the right?
- I'm not sure, but hey the wing walker says its okay.
- Just to make sure all go a little over to the left.
BAM

Not saying that's what actually happened, but reading that ATC, marshallers, etc... should never be trusted is absurd. We rely on them at daily basis, sometimes you do have to exercise some airmanship (what explains why he went far out to the left), but if someone gave him an okay indication it is not fair to accuse him to trust on that.
Anyways, the management will probably blame them for exiting the yellow line just like people are doing here, doing that from a table office is so much easier than flying on the line daily.
My 2 cents.

[Monarch Man]

Harry, you have made some fair points, and I for one have edited my previous post to reflect that without the facts, it is unfair to speculate about specifics.
FWIW, my options in similar circumstances I have faced have been exactly as you have described, perhaps you have read the ASR's :8
In every instance in Africa, I declined the offer of a wing-walker and utilised the company mandated, risk assessed and trained tug driver and engineer to get us out of trouble. It is of course whilst the aircraft is moving under its own power, entirely the commanders responsibility for obstacle clearance, and in the case of this being not "assured" my default position is to pass that baton onto those in a far better position to assess said clearance and take that responsibility. A cop out I am sure some will say, for me it's merely self preservation.

[clear to land]

Never leave the taxi line. It is the only legal defence you have. If you have doubt just stop and set the brake. How much L/R do you need-you just can't be sure-and if you leave the line then you are acknowledging doubt. Remember, its your fault Captain, if the aircraft is moving under its own power, even if its enroute and you are in the bunk as far as it is physically possible to be from your seat.

[too_much]

Why do I have a feeling there will be an Alan Suguar style finger point followed by your fired comment coming soon....

[littlejet]

Having worked there for some time, I think this can also be a planned setup.
Something like this...Company/airport/somebody needs cash so let's find a cash-cow, make him fall into a trap and than ask to pay the repair fees, lost profit fees, personal stress fees, knowledge fees...

[BYMONEK]

too_much

Maybe optimism, perhaps even an element of naivety on my part, but a 'you're fired!'? Hopefully not as that would merely confirm what many here already suspect, that EK is a 'Just' culture in name only.

[White Knight]

They'll be back on line fairly soon I think... Mistakes happen... Sadly the biggest mistake in EK hasn't been corrected yet!

[Pixy]

To pass judgement, comment and play the amateur lawyer without being in full possession of the facts is both arrogant and naive in the extreme. It also shows an immaturity in aviation. Anyone who has been in this game long enough should know this.

With some of the posts on this site I am concerned as to who I share the skies with and am not surprised that airline managements think we are a bunch of self important muppets.

Sit back, wait for the facts, wish the crew the best and try to avoid making a public spectacle of ignorance.

[Iznogood]

Every airport you go around the world you can read "WELCOME TO...." Except in Lagos : "THIS IS LAGOS"

[josmison]

Not working for ek however familiar with lagos and nigeria. By the pics it looks like they were taxing to 18L which is not the usual runway for international departure out of lagos. That aircraft hak has been sitting in what looks to be out of position for months. i have seen 737 s deflecting left of centerline to avoid the aircraft and i cant imagine a 777. Yes the centerline must be followed at all times as avoator however in nigeria i have seen so many cases where staying on centerline would put you right into trouble.

[777Goose]

I thought operations at LOS were restricted to 18R? I'm one of the recent 'retires' so do not have access to current CCIs.

[Basic Service]

I was interested to see someone say that the 737 had been parked out of position for months. Combine that, with what sounds like a non standard runway for departure, and the swiss cheese model is in full force. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. From our armchairs looking at pictures, we can see that it was never going to work ( the port main was all but off the taxiway ). We all go to airports on the EK network where the "normal rules" just don't apply. I mean, who would of thought it would be routine to hold off for a rocket attack, not fly over that way due to small arms fire from the hills, or come up with a plan as the airport was the scene of a firefight? No one gets up thinking, I'll just fall into a wee trap today. There are so many occasions at work where we might think, s**t, I wish I hadn't done that. If we are lucky, at worse, it might mean calling a tug for taking a wrong taxiway. If it ends up like this one did, thats really bad luck. We strive to trap threats and brief in a TEM style to avoid days like this one for our entire career. If we are lucky, we are known for our professional and incident free record and are well thought of. If despite everything we are for just one day caught out, we are that bloke who f****d up, this despite the other 20,000+ other incident free hours.

To all those who have chosen to judge, or offer a less than complimentary opinion of the crew, I hope you don't one day rue the day you made your comments. So what if it was their fault? I feel for them and am sure that they don't need any help with the kicking in the bolax department. The fact is, they are now dealing with an unenviable situation with a company that is historically unforgiving. I for one hope that they are treated fairly and wish them well. We should learn from these events and move forward together.

[johnnyramjet]

Well said Pixy, Harry and Basic Service. With power failures at the airport, runway and taxi lights out the Swiss cheese model did come into play.

[SOPS]

Well said, Basic.:ok::ok:

[Flytdeck]

Right on Basic and Harry. All our careers in the ME environment are "so far, so good". As you stated so well, one little moment of inattention or bad judgement and the spotless career is over.

To those judging the crew, one has to ask when was the last time they made a "perfect" flight accomplishing 100% SOP compliance, answering every ATC communication, performing perfect briefings and flawless CRM. If you are one to say that EVERY flight is spot on, then you are only a section of time away from YOUR first encounter with the fickle finger of fate. We can only hope that our failings do not engender injuries or worse.

We are professionals. We make mistakes. The only difference is the degree and consequences. The question is, what led to this intimate encounter between two excellent aircraft and how can we all ensure it does not happen again? This highly trained crew did not do this on purpose, so what are the reasons that brought an otherwise normal and routine departure to this unlikely conclusion. Possibly the AIRPORT should be removed from wide body operations?

[Fack5]

Spot on, Basic Service, very well said.

But I suspect that in some cases the urge to apply the common sense to which you've alluded is, unfortunately, influenced or even overwhelmed in this company by knowledge of the history of reaction by our fine management to certain decisions by Pilots In Command over the years. Anything that hits the hub or causes bad press...... They've created a toxic environment in which to operate as a commander. Want examples? There are many.