New Crew Rostering System at EK

[montencee]

The User Guide to the New CRS has this nugget tucked away in the eSwap section:

You cannot create additional days off by swapping.

[bogeydope]

During a wash up recently, we were told that this Jepp system has been running parallel to current CRS for almost 18 months........:=:=:uhoh::uhoh:

[Omar_Baba]

looks like you can only bid for 5 things a month as you can only assign one item to a priority of highest, high, medium, low and lowest.

I noticed the "you can't create additional days off by swapping" gem..... happy days:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Stjuk]

So it'll basically be impossible to swap a turn with a layover?!

[Kapitanleutnant]

As I read the note from our fearless leader…. absolutely NOTHING was in favor of the crew, only the company.

[Overtimer997]

I can't read much into it as there is NO information of any use for us to decipher. Just a one-liner. But sure why should we care it's only our live style they want to wreck for NO good reason.
Perhaps someone who actually knows the new rules can inform the rest of us? Wasn't that the point of the email....... Yet another email failure:ugh:

[littlejet]

You cannot create additional days off by swapping.

And they want us to help by bidding during testing phase...yeah right, I am on it!

[maimax]

Who does this and what is their problem exactly?

[777-200LR]

Q. So when you are in the top 2 bid groups and you Request a trip, will you know if its a possible 'certainty' before even the bidding period ends?

As for the "swapping for additional days off", I stand to be heavily corrected but I read it as them talking about the maximum limitation (15 days off) of days off that cannot be created by swapping.

[lospilotos]

I don't think the "no creating additional days off" is anything new. Seen it happen in the existing system too. It's when you do a swap including a, or next to a rest day, where after the swap rest is not required anymore, then the rest turns into an AD. At least that's what I think/hope...

[fatbus]

I agree , think it's no more than the max number of days off ie 15.
Also changing to 7 bids groups.
No surprise it's not an improvement.
" global optimization" the new excuse !
Time to move on this is another reduction in T and C's

[aeropix]

Well, as a "power bidder" who has been using the Ad-Opt system for over a decade, both here and at my old company, I should feel put-off and hard-done-by at the very limited amount of bid choices we are given. With my long experience with the old system, I should be the one ranting and raving about the injustice here. It appears they really are screwing us with this, or are they?

Strangely, I have a gut feeling that this new system will perform much better than the old one, if only by limiting the allowed inputs it will force all of us to focus on what we really want for the month, rather than "shotgunning" the system and hoping that something will stick.

I'm particularly hopeful about the Top and 2nd-Top "Request" system, and about the removal of training pre-assignments that always screwed up any training-month bid.

What remains to be seen is whether the actual performance of the system as implemented here at EK will match the intentions of its design.

What is certain is that, again based on my long experience with Ad-Opt, that the old system is completely broken here and so rarely produces acceptable results that whatever comes after it will be an interesting change.

[aeropix]

Also changing to 7 bids groups.
No surprise it's not an improvement.

Nah, the lazy boffins in the bouncy castle just couldn't be bothered to make a FAQ for the PILOTS so they copied over the Cabin Crew FAQ on the pilot's portal, without even bothering to edit it, or even make it clear the origin of that document. We still have only 5 bid groups (for now). Management probably got some extra time at Costa after that big effort!

Now THAT's not a surprise.

[BigGeordie]

My bid usually runs to 30 or 40 requests but satisfaction is low. I'd be quite happy with a system where I can ask for 5 things but stand a good chance of getting three of them. Time will tell if that is the case here or not.

[aeropix]

. I'd be quite happy with a system where I can ask for 5 things but stand a good chance .

That's what I'm talkin' bout! Hope it does work like that!

[X-BleedOpen]

I think guys that as long as the eSwap stays as it is, with the 15 days off limitation on it and we can still swap L/O or T/A for days off when needed... this might not be as bad as we think.

Things like the SBUs are now assigned within the system, as opposed to manual imputs... so I am hoping that being all more automated and with less idiots putting their hands on it, we will see an improvement!

Let's hope at least...

[Aircav]

Does anyone know for sure what this means before I start firing off emails to AS????

[montencee]

Going by the mixed opinions so far no one knows for sure what it means.

The document suffers from a lack of clarity because it wasn't proof-read. The first typo comes in the fourth paragraph followed by occasional jumbled sentences and misspellings throughout.

It's a wonder it hasn't had the usual 'Recalled by Sender' yet.

[Desdihold]

Will Tri/TREs be part of this new bidding system ?

[777-200LR]

After reading it again, I still think its talking about the 15 days off in a month limitation that cannot be added to by swapping. It's poorly written and as usual has us all guessing. But dare I use the word common sense; eswap would be virtually useless if it does come down to meaning the later.

[170to5]

Well, being pessimistic (as is always best and is usually the case) I reckon it means that you cannot increase the number of days you have been assigned at roster release by swapping. So when you ask for your 5 in a row and they give you 2 off, BAH, 2 off you can't swap without playing around so much you give up.

Now stop trying to get days off in order to leave Dubai to spend their money somewhere else*!

*Disney dollars are non transferable and cannot be used outside the park.

[lospilotos]

The document suffers from a lack of clarity because it wasn't proof-read.



You mean like "At Crew Arrivals from 04 - 08 June during office hours."

[fliion]

It states clearly on the new CRS User guide: pg 12 (V7.1)

"You cannot create additional days off by swapping"

But this is the same as the current eSwap rules. My understanding is no swap rules change. Read that whole paragraph.

Most guys try to move days, get a rest day at either end of the four days off etc.

This has not changed.

Open to correction.

f.

[thrustidle74]

It states clearly on the new CRS User guide: pg 12 (V7.1)

"You cannot create additional days off by swapping"

But this is the same as the current eSwap rules. My understanding is no swap rules change. Read that whole paragraph.

Most guys try to move days, get a rest day at either end of the four days off etc.

This has not changed.

Open to correction.

f.

I swap a lot. Pretty much my whole roster every month.
This month I managed extra 3 days off (not rest days) by giving up my nice, easy flights for stuff nobody wants due to personal circumstances.

TI74

[bigdaviet]

So we only have five bids?

[Praise Jebus]

Use one of those 5 to bid for another 5 bids.....

[trent1974]

Here is what the system is capable of:


Jeppesen Crew Rostering (http://ww1.jeppesen.com/industry-solutions/aviation/commercial/carmen-crew-rostering.jsp)


The company chose the most restrictive version of it.


Allow more than 5 bids and the system becomes useful to the pilot group.

[jack schidt]

Why bother doing it this month to give them the pleasure of seeing how much they can screw us in the system when it goes live. Just do the normal bid and be done with it.

J

[sluggums]

Another nail in the coffin of moral.

'The most restrictive version', why am I not surprised...

Next time I see TCAS or one of his minions I'm going to ask why they feel it's necessary to drive out what little pride, enthusiasm and enjoyment there is left in this company. Not just the pilots, but everybody who works for this shambles...

[bigdaviet]

I'll give this new system a chance, but I'm struggling to see past the fact we only have five bids! 7 in the top two groups.

Ok one improvement, if you bid correctly and you're senior enough you'll definitely get one or two of your first choices. But what about the rest of the roster!? You'll have to make very generic bids to stand a chance of getting anything else you want. And if you don't the system can give you any old rubbish.

I generally use hundreds of lines in the current bid system. For me this is a big downgrade.

I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

[BigGeordie]

Hidden in the small print is the fact that only one bid will be awarded of the five you are allowed. So if I bid for a JFK and five days off before leave as priorities 1 and 2 the system will only award one of those, then ignore all the other choices.:yuk:

So, effectively you will only get one thing that you have asked for each month. At most.

I'm sure there are low cost carriers that have better bidding systems than this.

[SOPS]

I have a feeling they did not spend all that money to make it better for the pilots.

[170to5]

BigGeordie

I might have missed it, but that doesn't seem to be quite correct - in your top two bid months, only one of your REQUESTS will be granted, at all other times the system will attempt to award you all five of your PREFERENCES...

Of course, it doesn't matter because it won't work.

Can anybody tell me: if my 'Lowest' priority preference is the same as the 'Highest' priority bid of the guy one seniority place below me, will I get it being senior or will he get it because he requested it at a higher priority?

One of a thousand questions...

[GoreTex]

I noticed a trend the last 17 years and I have never seen anything getting better, so why should the bid system get better? when I joined we had a great system, but that was 98

[Wh1sper]

Guys, it will most definitely NOT be an improvement. 110 hours here we go....

[bogeydope]

As per EK email. You can not create a new day off. Previous rest day, for example, becomes an AD day.

Wonderful!!:=:=

[trent1974]

170to5,


I have asked many questions and have read about it thoroughly. The way it works as I understand it is, the solver takes each person individually. It simply goes to the first person in seniority and tries to assign anything it can for all of his/her bids (ie. highest to lowest). Once it is done it moves on to the next person in seniority.


Again, I THINK!

[BigGeordie]

 Up to five Requests can be submitted - in priority order, 1 to 5.
 One Request can be awarded.

Lifted from the "explanation" PDF file. So, yes, more than one preference can be awarded but only one request.

So in your top two bid groups expect to get at most one thing you asked for. The rest of the time, no chance.

[Trader]

From the PREFERENCES it does NOT use seniority. It will resolve rosters to fit the required flying into skeds.

My guess- to allow certain people/groups better bidding. But then I'm a pessimist when it comes to EK.

 Up to five Requests can be submitted - in priority order, 1 to 5.
 One Request can be awarded.

Lifted from the "explanation" PDF file. So, yes, more than one preference can be awarded but only one request.

So in your top two bid groups expect to get at most one thing you asked for. The rest of the time, no chance.

[delorean79]

Only one request guys, is black and white. Regarding the preferences, it says that the seniority within the group is not taken in count. Not really sure what that means...

[lospilotos]

As per EK email. You can not create a new day off. Previous rest day, for example, becomes an AD day.

Wonderful!!:=:=

Exactly as it's done already today, no change...

[GLAndy]

They can't help themselves.

The old CRS doesn't work because of all the silly non-commercial, no-cost restrictions. Now that we are short bodies, and still have the same restrictions, I'm not sure how they think this will help. Obviously it won't, but I guess they have a shovel and hopefully if they dig far enough they'll eventually see the light. By then I suppose a large chunk of us will have gone elsewhere to protect our health, and family life. I can't believe that European LCC suddenly looks good.

I suppose if you get one thing you want in the top two bid groups, it will provide the veneer of a system that works to the naive and blind. Exit plan slowly falling into place.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[knifedge]

In fact,

The reason why the previous one was a complete disappointment for most of us, was the manual insertion practices. Those that allowed some insiders to have a richer pocket...

You could always see the same S# doing some particular flights, and after bidding for 18 months to fly home to see my family, I still can't get the flight. I think the new system will help to avoid this practices of the manual inserters... An improvement in a way. May be that is why it is taking a while to release it... Some insiders don't like it...

Let's hope..!

[bigdaviet]

I'm sure the insiders will quite happily stop doing that flight (and other nice ones) to allow a fairer system for all.

And if we are not able to get nicer flights due to the above or seniority, we have a massive total of FOUR other bids to get something else.

Please can we keep the existing system!

[Trader]

With the PREFERENCE part of the bid the package says seniority is not involved (within the bid group). So it can still be manipulated and certain people will lily still be treated differently. Though I hope I'm wrong.

In fact,

The reason why the previous one was a complete disappointment for most of us, was the manual insertion practices. Those that allowed some insiders to have a richer pocket...

You could always see the same S# doing some particular flights, and after bidding for 18 months to fly home to see my family, I still can't get the flight. I think the new system will help to avoid this practices of the manual inserters... An improvement in a way. May be that is why it is taking a while to release it... Some insiders don't like it...

Let's hope..!

[knifedge]

The manual inserters (insiders) are getting thicker pockets ... let's hope it stops at once.
Some guys are always benefited with the rosters... while others can't see their families and are destroyed...
It all happens the week before the publication...

[SyncPilot]

Just found out the other day that the crew control does not have access to swap app any more so if you are trying to find out if a swap would be legal (multiple swaps or similar) you have to send a email...

That will speed up the swap process for us when you really need it! :ugh:
Another improvement in ek...:yuk::sad:

[knifedge]

That is another thing that used to happen...

They would remove a flight from You, with excuse of a fleet change, assign You crap or AD; Then the flight given to one of their clients...

I think the new system would stop that ... let's hope..!

[Panther 88]

my goodness. Are you saying there may be some "unethical" behavior going on behind the scenes? I am just shocked and appalled that, that would ever take place here.

[GoldenNeck]

Hi everyone!

How about we all send our concerns/requests/suggestions to PilotBidHelp email address. They will then be able to escalate them to the management.:8
Why not try to ask for more REQUEST and PREFERENCE lines? And other stuff of course.
I don't know if that would make any change at all. But at least, next time we moan about the new CRS during a wash up, we won't hear "But... We hardly received any complains at all...":ugh:
Worth trying...
Cheers

GN

[JAYTO]

They need my help.....


what for?

please help us replace a **** system due to unfair company forced restrictions with another **** system due to unfair company forced restrictions.

Yeah right.....

You have my CRS bid and thats all you are getting.

J

[CaptainChipotle]

Yeah. If I thought the company was actually trying to help us and make our QOL better with the new system I'd do both. Since we all know we are being sized up to be bent over I'm only doing CRS as well.

:ugh:

[falconeasydriver]

Hi everyone!

How about we all send our concerns/requests/suggestions to PilotBidHelp email address. They will then be able to escalate them to the management.
Why not try to ask for more REQUEST and PREFERENCE lines? And other stuff of course.
I don't know if that would make any change at all. But at least, next time we moan about the new CRS during a wash up, we won't hear "But... We hardly received any complains at all..."
Worth trying...
Cheers

GN

Oh how we laughed.......
You ACTUALLY have/had people turn up at wash ups?
Those that did turn up last had any influence when the Dead Sea just had a cold....:hmm:

[Fack5]

Before that, in fact, Falcon... it was back when Pontius was still a Pilate.

JAYTO, that brought a damn good laugh! My sentiments, exactly!

If only the noobs and kool-aid drinkers could see your point too.

[Emma Royds]

If you are not in the top two bid months, then is there any point in actually bidding? Someone at the bottom of your group has just as much chance getting what you want anyway.

I am sure it's more luck than anything but did I get the days off and destinations and even one flight on a specific date that I wanted in July. I did have over 40 lines of bids and it was my second top bid. I therefore find it impossible to comprehend how having significantly less influence on the bidding system will bring better results. As far as I am concerned, it's a disaster on a grand scale that is now slowly unfolding.

[SOPS]

You are 100% correct LR3. There is no way they spent all that money on a new system to be nice to the crew. There has to be a lot in it for the company. The old system would have worked fine, had it been allowed to run as it was designed to do, and not had so mant artificial restrictions placed into it.

[TangoUniform]

No pay increases and now this very beneficial new bid system.....and they think they have a difficult time getting pilots now? It will actually be fun to watch. We can eventually leave. "They" can't.

[jack schidt]

The wheels have fallen off and the smoke and mirrors are obvious. 3 of my cabin crew were seniority numbers 40xxxx 41xxxx and another 41xxxx. They were the junior Grade 2s and the old hands as G2s were 42xxxx and up. The cover up as to the numbers leaving are clear, they are desperately trying to cover up the haemorrhage in all crew and staff.

Despite all the obvious damage in the side of this (Titanic), the ship must plough on until it does a Costa Concordia and the rocks prevent any further motion (post 2020 I would say).

J

[gcaflyer]

Does anyone know what other airlines are using the Jepp system? It would be interesting to find out what the average number of bids allowed is at other carriers. I'm fairly certain it would have no bearing on our plight here but would be one bit of ammunition in a plea for more bids!
If anyone has factual information PM it to me. Include the airline and number of requests/preferences. I will gather it and forward it to the help email.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Probably not the information you want, but ...

I had a friend stay over quite a number of years back. He was a KLM 747 FO and he was looking over my shoulder at the features of our CRS bid system in wild wonder. His rostering rules were:

-ONE requested flight per YEAR
-swaps not permitted
-only the first two weeks of any month's roster were considered to be firm, the remaining two were considered to be 'TBA'

Be careful what you wish for.

[fatbus]

If there are any CRS guys here or if you know one , I'm sure they have that info.

[Schnowzer]

Since they ditched the avoid I have been running about 50 lines a month just to try and avoid one destination.

Under the present system, I didn't manage it. In theory we all should be able to avoid one destination from the mid-bid group up but I never seemed to. Having just positive requests, fulfilled correctly, would require about 6 lines so in theory it should work.

So to the new system, sadly I have heard managers in Fleet talking about "the new reality" when discussing housing and rosters. It sounds like they are all being assimilated into the Borg. None of the "cost neutral" restrictions have been removed so we are getting a new calculator running the same old sums.

If the company is concerned about safety and QOL, remove all restrictions apart from an FRMS input.

So what do I expect from this new system? Nothing at all!

Einstein said:

"We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them" and

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

You can replace human in the expression above with the manager of your choice! Until there is a move from a dictatorial style to a win/win approach we are doomed to bend to the whims of the masters until we are freed from bondage and leave.

[SOPS]

Dropp, having spent 18 years flying with the KLM group prior to EK, I can assure you the rostering system there is far superior to anything EK has. The union work rules guarantee that. How does a 7 day layover in São Paulo grab you?

You can swap, you can get more than one requested flight per year, the system just works differently. Without going into long details, a lot of it works on the fact that crewing and pilots work as a team, not as one way street from the company.

[glofish]

Fewer bids and fewer options, no seniority in lower bid groups and the same punitive restrictions ..... where's the new, where's the improvement?

The blind can see it through the sandstorm that it is only beneficiary to the company. Read the user guide precisely and your eyes will pop, even if you're blind from fatigue!

We have two options to show our discontent, both extremely important:

- Do NOT participate in the trial, especially because they do not disclose the trial roster.
- Do voice your displeasure via mail, with your specific concerns or disagreements.

We just might get their attention.

I specifically dislike that only one request would be fulfilled, second that with only preferences in bid groups 3 to 5, seniority is not considered.

I don't even want to mention the off day punishment with swapping to them, it has nothing to do with the new system, it is only punitive and vindictive and we all know from what despicable part this originates. :mad::mad::mad:

[Snake man]

You forgot the 3rd option, Glofish...Resign!
Unlike options 1 and 2, it is guaranteed to achieve satisfaction.

[Emma Royds]

You forgot the 3rd option, Glofish...Resign!
Unlike options 1 and 2, it is guaranteed to achieve satisfaction.

Which is what I will be doing in a few months time! :ok:

[rotafix]

Emma,

I am resigning in Sept aswell. Maybe we can get together and resign at the same time

[Trader]

Jepp is used in many airlines with unlimited/high preferences limits.

[Flytdeck]

Jepp also has the ability to Avoid specific items such as destinations, longer trips, early departures, etc.

Not sure why this feature is not activated in the EK or QR systems.

[keepitrealok]

Dropp,

A KLM pilot lives in their own country. Even their worst roster returns them after every flight to a country they love.

An EK pilot does not. Even in their best month an EK flight returns them to a country they tolerate, but will never love.

It appears certain people have forgotten that this is an expat airline and nobody moves to Dubai for Dubai.

Good luck with recruiting. The word is more than just 'out.'

[Neptune Spear]

Everyone knows what is going on at EK now and it shows by who is joining.
When you resign it is one of the greatest feelings in your career. Try it you will like it.

[Fack5]

certain people have forgotten that this is an expat airline and nobody moves to Dubai for Dubai. Don't forget Those From the Land of Rain and Bad Teeth!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

A KLM pilot lives in their own country. Even their worst roster returns them after every flight to a country they love.

An EK pilot does not. Even in their best month an EK flight returns them to a country they tolerate, but will never love.

It appears certain people have forgotten that this is an expat airline and nobody moves to Dubai for Dubai.
SOP
With respect maybe you should have considered this before you joined. From KLM to EK was always going down hill

[SOPS]

Sorry Mr Angry, but I did not post that.

[homoeconomicus]

we are powerless! to each of us to find the best response to this chaotic outfit. It has become so silly I don't take them seriously anymore and feel no threat:=
I see the end of the tunel.. YAY :ok:

[Neptune Spear]

Yeah but is the end of a tunnel an on coming train?
It is time to get off this nightmare.

[glofish]

Less than 50% of pilots put in a parallel bid!

Good job. It's to show them our displeasure with the new system and them not listening at all.

In a typical manner EK now builds up a threat: If you do not bid in parallel, the system can't be fine tuned and this will result in "poorer rosters than might otherwise be the case".

It can't be worse for us, so i guess they're still right, but it might be worse for them ......

(But the reaction is typical: You don't act the way we want, you get punished. Just as the hilarious and completely puerile statement concerning SEP's: You fed back that it is overloaded, so we took out the OM-E test and shoved it up yours in your free time! With the spin that they seemingly "reacted" to our wishes, only to punish us for raising an issue they effectively did not respond to.)

We want less restrictions, more bids, no privileges for special groups. We know this is possible with the same efficiency, that the unsatisfactory set up is basically only vindictive.

[donpizmeov]

Seems the "we can't show you the result as we are only trialling data input" may be porkies as well. Who would have guessed.

[kipper the dog]

It's unreal. In essence, they are effectively asking us to help them to shaft us even more. No chance. Funny how they always get caught out with their BS.

Never believe anything they say more

[Kamelchaser]

"We have a new gun we need to trial Bloggs. We'd like you to shoot yourself in the head to see if it works. If you don't want to do that, we'll shoot you ourselves. Either way we're going to use it." :ugh:

[Panther 88]

The issue I have is I haven't found a way to add ADs to my bid. Seems like that is the only successful way I bid now days. I mean if we want to have consistent bidding from one system to the other, there must be a way We can do that. One PTY, one MCO, and one Euro trip would pretty much fill up the month. Well I guess if the goal is 100 hours it won't and with factoring.......gotta have those ADs. :ok:

[Mr Good Cat]

Anyone notice how the email / update letter did not have the name of the originator on it?

Just the name of the Executive Secretary of Flight Ops Dept.

[Pilot_Recruit]

So they're too lazy to enter in 4000 bids themselves? There is a team dedicated to this software so they should do it! What difference does it make if we do it or they do it unless there is something more sinister at play.

Loved the tone of the email though.

[Saint]

...or with a couple of lines of code, copy the submitted bids to the empty bids and hey presto: a fully populated roster test ready to go. Perhaps they think the ones who did not submit their bids have held back some fiendish bid combination that could make the system fall over when it goes live...but no, that would indicate paranoia.

[bigdaviet]

Even if you really want to enter a parallel bid, how are you supposed to do one that matches your current one when the new system is so much worse, and so much more restricted than the current one.

I use over 100 lines in the current system. How can I 'parallel' this into 5 lines?

[Saint]

I wonder if the old system would work better/quicker if the number of bid request lines was restricted to five and the optimiser moved on after fulfilling the highest weighted request. I'm sure its been tried already, maybe.

[fliion]

50% turn out not bad for a Co. that hasn't given a pay raise since 2008 - but rather than be appreciative of a pretty solid number...

... A threat ....because somehow it's now our our fault...

If they're going to pay $40m for Jepp to do this - then they should pay us to be their guinea pigs. I would be happy to do a shadow bid for an hourly overtime rate (oops scratch that - it's less than the normal)

Otherwise they can FRO.

No way, no chance, any of us should play ball unless paid for our services.

If you do the shadow bid, you are agreeing to work for free. Just remember the entity you are giving the gift to...the same one that gave you a 1.3% pay cut this year.

Because every other party involved in this ...fleet, Jepp, CRS help team, IT etc...are getting paid (or similar) but not you.

Bend over at their pleasure.

Pffft...


f.

[The Outlaw]

FFS... just hand in your resignation letter. Things become so much better then.


Who gives a F#ck about EK...their time has past....its over ladies and gents!!

Those who have spent any time here know its true...those who signed on within the past 3 years will realize what a massive mistake they've made.

[SOPS]

Of course it's your fault fliiion, everything is your fault. The managment can do no wrong.
Careful Outlaw, Harry we be around to tell you how wrong you are.:ok:

[Kammel]

What amazes me is that half of the pilots actually bothered to "trial" this new bidding system for management.

We have zero representation as a pilot group. This is a golden opportunity to stand together and show them our collective discontent. Make no mistake, they are not intending to improve your quality of life with this new system!

I will not assist them in shafting me even further...

[The Turtle]

I think the 50% who did try it expected to see the output.


I doubt that many will try it again. Why bother?


As many already have said, what's in it for us?

[CamelRustler]

It's not a rostering system! To call it such is an insult to every pilot here. If I fly 15 trips a month and I get to pick 5 of which maybe 3 are awarded I might as well not bid. I mean 20-30% of my schedule is chosen by me, and EK picks 70-80%. Why bother bidding. Even top bid. Hey EK just build the lines how you want. Publish them on the 15th. Let us bid on those lines. And publish the results on the 18th. Everyone including yourselves would be happier.Though happier is relative in this case. IMHO

[JAARule]

50% is a red herring. They throw all sorts of BS into their emails to make the pilots think the individual reader is in a minority and in fact everything's going quite smoothly. Why else would they bother to quote the numbers... Apparently the real participation figure was <10% who wasted their personal time on the parallel bid.

I'm guessing some were new shiny joiners and the rest were the idle curious just off leave who'd had plenty of recent rest.

As always, simply more BS from the Crystal Phalace.

[scandistralian]

Has anyone managed to seek a sensible explanation to the restricting of bids to 5 only?

[sondbird101]

The reason for only 5 choices? Odds are you will only get 2-3 if that. The system will fill around awarded trips satisfying the company rules of min consecutive days off, max E/W, max consecutive late duties and to justify the mysterious FRMS system purchased. Quite obvious there is too few pilots to cover the commercial schedule. The only way for the company to cover the flying as best as possible is to not give any awards and just let the optimizer run without obstructions (pilot's lifestyle).

Hello Today Good-bye Tomorrow

[gardenshed]

Latest rumour is that it will be a maximum of 8 days off per month, with standbys covering the extra days that would have been off.
This apparently came from a recent wash up so I'm told.

[120feet]

I have never understood why they didn't do that sooner. They are obviously quite happy doing it to one fleet, and have no understanding whatsoever what it like to fly through both side of the clock month after month. What they see is it reduces the number of reserve pilots. However, it will make your schedule much more dynamic. If you get called out on an AD your next days trip will most likely be changed do to legality, and start a cascade of fun for the rest of the month. All 380 turns could then be covered by AD days no need to even roster those. Whatever training doesn't pick up just give it to an AD guy. Unfortunately, this is one rumor I see as very likely. I really really hope I'm wrong.

[SOPS]

If this is true, and it would not surprise me if it is, it is proof they have totally lost the plot. How can they expect you, with the hours you fly, and the times you do it, to have the same amount of days off, as a 7.30 to 15.30 Costa Dweller?

Total madness.

[glofish]

Latest rumour is that it will be a maximum of 8 days off per month, with standbys covering the extra days that would have been off.

The moment i see that, my resignation goes in.

Not that i think they'd realise or care, but i certainly will!

[halas]

Reserve on an ad-hoc basis was voted out when TCAS ran the vote to either keep it or have like the BA system once every second rotation.
From what l understand BA have reserve once a year. Not every ten months.
Reserve is one month, not five weeks.
They also get 8 days off pre-assigned that is pre-selected by the pilot.

As TCAS is leaving, then maybe so is the instilled reserve system?

halas

[uba737]

I will resign as soon as they make the 8 days effective!

[Neptune Spear]

Resign now, you will feel so much better.
Why wait? Very few pilots think it is going to get better here so don't delay, resign today!

[Cloud Bunny]

Not so much to do with the new system but I wonder how many people have, like me, just wasted their September bid trying to get home to LGW (777 by the way).
Just had a call from an A380 buddy of mine wondering why he's off to LGW on the EK11 which wasn't supposed to be making the switch until January according to the press release.
I guess they need the 777 to do a turnaround that requires less crew!

[flareflyer]

It is pretty funny to see a banner about Emirates roadshow in lgw right on this page. I wonder how many attended.....

[Fire Ball XL5]

The "current" rostering system is an abomination... upgrading to abominationV.2 doesn't sound promising.
Having said that... I've been reading many an article lately on shift workers health, sleep deprivation, and Pilot health.... it's all not good.
The rosters we operate here at EK are unique in the airline industry, flying widebodies on short-haul, long-haul, and ULR all in the same month.. and at all hours of the day and night. It is in fact slowly killing us all at an alarming rate.
This may have been posted before, but I would encourage anyone with a few minutes to participate in the Harvard School of Medicine Pilot Health Survey.

Pilot Health Study (http://www.pilothealthstudy.org/)

I can guarantee it will be far more effective, and seen by enlightened people who care, than the sorry excuse we have for a Fatigue Monitoring Program. :ugh:(run by the fox, guarding the chicken coop)

[nakbin330]

Done. I hope 'we' get to see the results once the study is complete.

PS Our fatigue management programme is managed by an ex-FO who is Embry Riddle qualified. He pops into town once or twice a year.

[SOPS]

And what or who is Embry Riddle. ( my survey is done as well)

[helen-damnation]

Cloud Bunny

The 380 is doing 2 weeks of the EK11, presumably covering the end of hols/start of school rush. The 777 will then take it back until January.

There was a rumour of a permanent change now but my info is it's not happening.

H-D

[Man Flex 37.5]

From what l understand BA have reserve once a year. Not every ten months.

Really? Maybe at Emirates mainline but Emirates regional on the dream fleet (330/340) we have reserve every 4.8 months... I have reserve Feb, July and December....

[Cloud Bunny]

Cloud Bunny

The 380 is doing 2 weeks of the EK11, presumably covering the end of hols/start of school rush. The 777 will then take it back until January.

There was a rumour of a permanent change now but my info is it's not happening.

H-D

Hope you're right H-D. I seem to remember them saying something similar when the EK15 went over at short notice.
Anyway, back to the topic - the new rostering system, we're all ducked!

[Kamelchaser]

Someone mentioned the FRMS...what a laugh that program is.

On a similar medical subject...has anyone noticed the radiation monitoring program quietly went the way of the dodo? According to sources at the clinic, the figures exceeded anything anyone wanted to be aware of, and so it got put down.

Are you aware that a polar crossing is something in region of the equivalent of 4 X-rays; that UV radiation coming through the windscreen at high latitudes is 10 times more than you'll experience lying on the beach...and that companies like Virgin restrict their crews to 1 polar crossing every three months, whereas EK recently changed their policy to allow three ULR flights (no differentiation between 3x SD/AKL or 3 x LAX) per roster. NINE times more than Virgin allows.

Between serious fatigue and long term exposure to serious doses of radiation, flying for EK is indeed putting your health at risk.

I personally know of four EK pilots who have suffered brain aneurysms/strokes in the past three years. And those are just the ones I know about.

[Rotaiva]

Quotes straight from the Jeppesen Crew Rostering brochure; check it out yourself: -
Jeppesen Crew Rostering (http://ww1.jeppesen.com/industry-solutions/aviation/commercial/carmen-crew-rostering.jsp)
See - 'More Information' - 'Preferential Bidding'

"The key property of a preferential bidding system is that it allows the crew members to express and prioritize their lifestyle preferences"


"Bids can describe anything from detailed flight numbers to a complex combination of layover station, minimum rest-time, late check in, minimum credit time, etc. There are also various ways to express bids."

And what do we have? Something geared 100% to the airline and 0% to us. Well Alan, you can take your "help us to help you" crap somewhere else!:mad:

[SOPS]

Has anyone asked TCAS, why not publish rosters using the new system? I don't mean real rosters, but ' ghost rosters'. I have a good idea why they are not doing it.

[Wizofoz]

Yes, that has been asked. The problem is with only 50% of people bidding, those that do will get pretty much exactly what they bid for, so it isn't realistic.

[Rim-job]

I would say that the lack of interest in doing the parallel bid is a quiet way of saying we are over this place. It's all about giving, giving, giving and return we receive nothing. I can assure you I will not be doing the parallel bid for Sept.

It's my way of saying GFY.

[QCM]

https://s0.2mdn.net/viewad/4400405/Pprune_EA_Pilot-Fleet-Banner_728x90_FA.gif

Top of this thread...on purpose? Coincidence? Cynical?

[Gulf News]

The way I read Squealies missive is " we have a stick that we are going to beat you with in November. We want to give you a few whacks with it first ,that you won't feel because we will use the current CRS ( COVERED REAR SYSTEM ) as a shield to ensure that the schedule is fully covered and prevent wholesale mutiny. What we want to be sure of is that when we take the cover away it's going to sting like hell"

[LHR Rain]

Under the FAQs at the Emirates banner and website is a question saying something along the lines why do EK pilots fly so hard.
The answer is every ULR is doubled crewed and no pilot is allowed to fly over 900 hours a year. Complete bullocks. I'm pretty close to 1000 hrs this year and with all the augmented flights I'll definitely be over 1000 hrs in the months to come.
The lies just keep on coming from the despicable airline.

[helen-damnation]

Recently flew with a guy who's over 1,100 :uhoh:

[glofish]

Putting in a dummy bid for EK is close to self flagellation.

50% however went for it! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

The system is mature and has showed good results in a lot of companies. This however with no vindictive restrictions and, more importantly, sufficient crewing.

Ahhhhh, now you might understand the squealing .....

[palm]

I just can't believe 50% of them still did it. We are our worse ennemies. They won't have mine, that's for sure. What a shame, It is just unbelievable how this company is becoming. Use to be a good place to work. For those who are planning to join PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read all the informations you can find on this forum, don't DON'T DON'T leave your current job for this company. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[fliion]

The new system will flagrantly violate the OMA like the last - every time I go to kiosk past eGate I acknowledge the brief starts in 5(?) minutes 90(?) prior followed by a page that asks me to click to ack I'm will comply with OMA (60 mins.)

They take 30 mins of our time - every time - and don't pay us (would prob put some 330 guys into productivity due amount of duty in's per month)

They don't pay you for ground & sim duties unlike our friends close by.

Unpaid off duty study is mandatory through distance learning.

They give no jump seat - unlike our friends near by.

They took away our off line ALT cities in US - unlike our friends close by.

They haven't given you a pay raise since 2008.

If they don't like you - they can have a look at your liver at their pleasure.

You want us to dummy bid. Pay us...I cannot give away my free time in the same way I wouldn't expect the company to.

Purely taking a page out of the corporate soul.

f.

[Rim-job]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said!! I couldn't agree more!!

[Panther 88]

Now here's the rub. When the new system goes live and it is purely ****e, who they gonna blame? Certainly not themselves. They will lament that they gave us plenty of opportunities to dummy bid to work out the bugs. But since only 50% put in a bid, then halas. It's a win win for them, a lose lose for the pilots. Nothing will change the system either way, but they have a built in scapegoat.

[Arcla]

panther 88 .... Sadly you are 100% correct.

Hopefully if ZERO % bid that may send a message. However they would never admit that. I bet last month way less bid.

Anyway. I'm not doing a parallel bid. Couldn't care anymore.

[Eau de Boeing]

Come on please...... He has even sent another e-mail out this evening explaining everything.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[glofish]

No, everyone involved will know that they screwed up.

The system performs perfectly well with other big users, so there is no reason on earth that it should not do its job at EK, apart for the additional BS they (he) put in.

It costs a lot of money and if it does not perform, guess who will get the bashing?
"He" won't, he can do nothing wrong for the obvious reasons we all endure in the pit, the system can't be blamed as it works well with all other users. That leaves only one or two poor pawns below him.

Any attempt to blame it further down the food chain would be futile.

They know it, Jep knows it, we know it and that is the reason good old TCAS is panicking with this fourth letter! :E

[Eau de Boeing]

Just been and bought some popcorn........ This could be fun!

:E:E

[120feet]

It is not a bidding system. 5 choices out of literally thousands? It's an EK rostering system designed to exclude or greatly limit any pilot input to maximize EK operations. You are much better off with the "failing" CRS system. How does a 330 guy with 15-18 flights get satisfaction with 5 choices?

[PositiveRate876]

The whole idea of parallel bidding is for the pilots to try different bidding strategies over the course of several months, so that they are experienced at using the new system and get high bid satisfaction.




Without trial bid awards, there is no point in bidding. At least the cabin crew realized this and only 25% bid last month. I'm not sure why any pilots bid at all.

[DCS99]

It must be possible to replicate bids in the new system automatically instead of relying on humans to enter bids manually on 2 different systems?

Data roll out
Data conversion
Data roll in

I am sure there are technical challenges but still...

[Emma Royds]

If you are like me and have as many as 30-40 lines in your bid and the new system limits you to significantly less, that may be easier said than done? :confused:

[SOPS]

I think you are all missing the point. TCAS is about to leave. He is desperatley trying to prove to those that pay his bonus, that his latest scheme to screw pilots and save money has worked. Them he can get some more bonus into his suitcase before he goes.

But to do this, he needs your 'help' to prove this. This is why he is so desperate for your parallel bids.

[Curry Goat]

Ahh, good ole SOPS... Pot got too hot so he got out (not a bad thing), but now sits on the side and fans the flame with innuendo and drivel. Carry on mate, you clearly know more than us on this subject.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

How about we all put a parallel bid in so that if indeed the system is substandard, we won't be blamed for its' failings. It falls in their lap.

Also, just wanted to point out that in addition to the annual step increment, we in fact did get a 3% pay rise in 2010, 5% in 2011, and 0.5% in 2013.

And they just raised the ESA, Educational Support allowance as of the 1st of September 2015.

They also raised the training requirements for limited experience FOs to 30 sectors and 120 hours before a final check.

[sheikhmahandy]

You have got to be joking.

I wouldn't ... on them if they were on fire let alone help them with a new

shafting system. I for one will not be entering a parallel bid!!

No matter how they try to sell it, there will be a lot of Vaseline required when

this enters our lives soon!!:ugh::ugh:

And as for the payrise................ How about inflation over those generous years of rises including school fees!!!!

[V1cutz]

You honestly think 0.5% is considered a raise? It's more like a slap in the face considering the profits this circus of an airline rakes in. And help them manipulate a bidding system that will further deteriorate our quality of life and rosters? Not a chance!

[fliion]

Sheik

I said we hadn't had a pay raise since 2008.

We took a 15% pay cut in 2009 - so net:net -6.5% using your numbers.

f.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Sorry filion I missed the email about the pay-cut in 2009. By 'pay-cut' you mean the productivity thresholds being raised? My contractual salary was raised though. Productivity is not contractural is it? Just asking...

[fliion]

Yes Sheik, that's what I was referring to - getting paid less per hour in anyone's book is a pay cut.

This is not a legal forum and if we were to take from purely a legal/contractual stance like you are suggesting - then no one would go through eGate until 61m prior.

I hope you defend and act on the 60 prior contractual principle in the same way you defend the other.

f.

[jack schidt]

If you consider all the 'beneficial" alterations that the company has made to your terms of service and contract, then this "new roster system" will no doubt have the same beneficial affect on your life. Fell free to allow the manipulation dials to be fully tuned for 'your benefit" when you dual bid.

J

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

If one was to take a commuting contract in the U.S. to travel to a base and then operate a flight, then when do they regard sign on time? 60 before? What about all the travel time before sign on? Don't most of the pilots commute to work at their own expense? We get a chauffeur with a commute that takes 35 minutes approximately. 'Sign on' 1hr 45 before departure leaving home 2 hrs 30 before departure compared to most airlines. They are getting about 45 minutes out of us that doesn't count toward duty. I agree that's not right. But better that other airlines I posit.

I hope this new rostering system is better than the old one as AS suggests. There are issues that will need to be addressed for sure. Might I suggest at the next washup that we just ask for a payrise. Someone suggest it, everyone agreeing, raise their hand. Will send a clear message.

[120feet]

SHEIKH,
Commuting is a choice of the pilot. However, EK does not allow it's pilots to have that choice so your point is not valid here. EK pilots are driven to the airport for 2 main reasons. Firstly, there is no parking. Second and more importantly, EK does not give it's pilots adequate time to prep for a flight. The flight plan is therefore reviewed in the car on the way to sign-in. How many times have you reached the briefing room and the other pilot says he's already read the 60 page briefing packet, FCI's and WX. It certainly wasn't done in the 10 minutes you're allotted by EK. It was done in the Transport, loooooooong before the pilot is even allowed to be doing any company related work.
I personally have never worked for an airline where I needed access to the flight plan before duty in order to adequately prep for the flight. If EK did not have transport for it's pilots, very few flights would get out on time. MCT, DOH, BAH, maybe. Also, how many pilots do you see passed out asleep on the ride home, because they have been worked to exhaustion?
At EK transport is a requirement not a luxury.
I would ask EK to use UBER Black. There are always 20 cars within 5 min of the airport. I use them almost daily. They can even bill EK directly. IMHO

[donpizmeov]

I don't read company stuff in the car. If you do its your choice.

[PositiveRate876]

The new CRS system is very expensive.
They would not be buying it just make our rosters better.
There have to be massive cost savings involved.


Crew productivity will surely increase = spreading ULR flying more evenly to take advantage of factoring. Getting average hours from 90 to 98 for example.


Hotel and transport costs reduced = Less layovers and/or shorter layovers. Hotel room utilization optimized so that multiple crews can use the same set of hotel rooms.


Perhaps a split of cabin crew and pilots = whereas the cabin crew do a turnaround and the pilots layover. Taking advantage of the less restrictive legalities of cabin crew.


Dubai transport costs reduced = Rostering of pilots from the same community on the same flight so that shared transport can be utilized.


I'm sure there are countless other ways that the new system can save them money. And I'm sure none of these changes will benefit us.

[Fack5]

Sheikh it sounds like you and "f" earned your "BSh" at the same School of Spin and Bull****tery as the company sends their managers to. A pay cut since......??? Whatever. :rolleyes:

Hi 120. They drive us to work because there's no parking, do they? Now THAT was funny. Nothing to do with the labour laws then? Guess I've misjudged them all these years. But anyone who can't read a flight plan and the first five or so pages of weather and NOTAMs in maximum 10min, might be in the wrong job. I read the F.I. jobs section in the car, not the flight plan.

[120feet]

Hey Fack,
Do not interpret any of my post as containing sarcasm because none is implied. My understanding was Crew Transport was negotiated mainly by the PIA pilots who first started at EK when the doors first opened. I have never heard of a labor law regarding pilots being driven to work. EY pilots drive. I drive. Your trainers drive. The office staff drives. Honestly, I may have missed something. So I am quite happy to be informed to the contrary.

Yes EK could set up a remote lot and bus the pilots in I guess. The parking thing was just a logistical observation. EGHQ was not designed to allow crew to park there. I can think of half a dozen reasons why EK drives it's pilots to work but most have been beaten to death on PP. Also, if you can fully prep for a 12 hour international flight in 10 minutes you are much better than me. I don't touch the airplane unless I've digested the entire flight plan. I don't sign off anything unless I've read it all. I require about 35-60 minutes depending on Wx, length of flight, destination etc. I personally would need much more time than EK gives you, so my comment was perhaps biased to my personal comfort level.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Biased to your comfort level or biased to your complete ignorance of airline operations?

A 14 hour flight takes as long to brief for as a 45 minute flight: about three minutes. Even if I am doing a 14 hour flight to Seattle all I need to know is the weather in Seattle, Vancouver, Kuwait and Shiraz, plus a quick look that LIDO has confirmed for me that the ETOPS airports are Adequate.

Get out your stopwatch and time me.

[BigGeordie]

EK is a government entity when it suits them to be so. Hence UAE labour law does not apply to them (Anybody see the irony of a government ignoring its own laws?). This from HR at a wash-up when the somewhat sensitive topic of leave came up.

[helen-damnation]

Dropp

You're a numpty and good luck with the court case :ugh:

Yes, you could walk out the door having checked those items, but you sure as heck aren't properly briefed and neither are your colleagues!

[Mr Good Cat]

I don't read company stuff in the car. If you do its your choice.

Unless you're reading stuff from a Company you're thinking of joining? ;)

[anson harris]

Actually I think Dropp has a point. Briefs should be relevant. Most of what EK want you to brief is totally irrelevant. That's not to say you shouldn't read the briefing package to yourself (well, the relevant bits).
I remember a brief not so long ago that followed the "say this, then you say this and this" approach which mentioned everything the company wanted but failed to highlight the fact that the weather at destination was 48 hours out of date. Personally, I just brief the threats and how I intend to handle them.

[fatbus]

"Dubai is a cat A airfield and de icing won't be required today"

Ps ; I'm with dropp on the briefing requirements

[White Knight]

Yep. Dropp has the right idea briefing wise... And while we're at it please do NOT cover the Master OFP with Highlighters!!!!!!!!

[ruserious]

Spot on Anson
I just brief the threats and how I intend to handle them.

[Praise Jebus]

I can't imagine how I ever did a ULR flight before GABI came along....I must have arrived a day before briefing....how diiid we survive?

[Monarch Man]

Personally, I just brief the threats and how I intend to handle them.

"have a nice flight" Trainee

[Schnowzer]

120feet,

UAE Labour Law says:

Every employer employing persons in remote areas not served by public transportation shall provide them, at the cost of the employer the following services:

Suitable transportation;
Suitable accommodation;
Suitable drinking water;
Suitable food;
First aid services; and
Means for entertainment and sports activities.

You either get Transport or an allowance! Public Transpo won't crack it so....

[Rim-job]

WK...

You are not one of "those guys" are you that seem to get their panty's all bunched up because your FO uses a little highlighter on the Master OFP. Oh dear... god forbid!!

Seriously, who really cares. Just sign the darn thing and be grateful he at least takes an interest in highlighting what he feels relevant. I'd rather an FO do that then a guy who leaves everything empty and hasn't a clue what's important nor what to look at.

There are so many more things to worry about in the daily grind of our operation and you chose to bring up highlighters??? WTF!!

[Panther 88]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
plus one:D

[Mr Good Cat]

The Mater OFP is not intended to be a work of art.

It's a document for YOU to use on YOUR flight to get safely from A to B. Sure it has to be kept correctly and appropriately completed, but who cares what is written/highlighted/drawn on it.

We're not at school anymore and getting gold stars for neatness. It's about getting the job DONE.

:cool:

[Juan Heych]

Mr. Cat, do you know what happens to the master copy after it is turned in?

[Mr Good Cat]

It gets kept for a defined period as per regulations before being recycled and turned into warning letters as per the environmental policy? ;)

[Kamelchaser]

That's ridiculous Mr Cat...surely you must know on any given day, far more warning letters are issued than OFPs. That policy would never work.

EK actually owns its own paper mill just for warning letter paper. Once issued, they are then recycled into OFPs, with the substantial balance of paper going to build housing for underprivileged children in Bangladesh through the company charities.

So embrace the worthy and ubiquitous EK warning letter. Much good comes of it.

[maligno]

Slavery life for voluntary slaves.

[Bartholomew]

Massive thread drift....

Start another thread gents.... you are killing this one!

:ugh:

[JAYTO]

some relaxing of the Rules????????

Can be rostered more than 5 days off in a row?????


Is AAR losing his grip????

Time will tell.

J

[Monarch Man]

I doubt it Jayto, more likely due to the haemorrhaging of pilots at the moment someone has had the stones to point out that this doesn't actually cost anything, and is merely a mean spirited policy implemented by an earth bound desk jockey.

[JAYTO]

Whatever the reason, he can't be happy to see his rules being changed.

J.

[FNGDXB]

On the contrary. I suspect this is play 1-01 from the management book of dirty tricks.

First, Decide what bad news you want the troops to swallow.

Second, Present rumours that proposed changes are even worse than those that management actually have in mind.

Third, Just prior to implementation, appear to give a little by falling back to the position management really wanted all along.

Results?

First, management have pulled the wool over most peoples eyes and gotten exactly what they always wanted.

Second, The troops believe (wrongly) that they have scored a minor victory and are, thus, happy.

Don't fall for it.

[JAYTO]

Or.......


After getting no help in "stress testing" the system the are coming to the conclusion that the new "improved" expensive upgrade can't produce a roster with all the stupid petty imposed rules.
Don't forget. The previous system could do the job if left alone. It only fell down due to the company imposed rules.
I think they now see that even this expensive upgrade won't do the job either, hence the "relaxing" of some rules "for our benefit"

Just my take on it.

J.

[BigGeordie]

Or......

They have finally realised that recruitment and retention is becoming a problem because of lifestyle and rostering issues. This is a way for them to relax some of the ludicrous and random restrictions without any loss of face. ("We always wanted to give you more days off in a row but the old system wouldn't let us. Now we can. See, we are nice guys really. Please don't leave.")

If recruitment and retention continue to be a problem expect to see even more clever things the new system can do that the old one couldn't.

[ruserious]

Seriously, you think that the system can give you a string of more than 5 days off in a row, when flying 95 plus hours, ground duties and standby's dream on. It's a placebo, don't swallow it. Might as well say you can bid for 10 days off in a row, bidding is not getting.

[Monarch Man]

Recently I had a chance to have a frank discussion with a senior member of staff, I said that essentially they could resolve their un-acknowledged retention and recruitment issues for virtually no cost, for all the reasons we all know and love. The response? Silence, and a return to his suite, read into that what you will.

[anson harris]

Second, The troops believe (wrongly) that they have scored a minor victory and are, thus, happy.

Exactly right.
It's a classic tactic straight from the Ryanair handbook of management. Take something away that the troops should have anyway - then give it back when times are tough to look generous. And it works every time. The best bit is, it's all at zero cost.

[puff m'call]

Just to put it simply, this new system will never work as it was deigned to.
EK have stripped it of most of the options and left the bare minimum.

Other airlines run our old system who have more pilots the EK with no problem at all. It doesn't work because of all the manual intervention, simple at that.

Why you ask yourself? SPITE!!!! pure and simple, because they can:ugh:

Why should we have what we want? why should we have great rosters that keeps you happy? Why cant you bid 5 days off at the end of one roster month and 5 off at the start of the next? SPITE that's why!!!

As long as the flight are manned who gives a damn. Let people have what they want and stop this immature bullying.

This is supposed to be a global airline. What it is, is a long haul airline with a short haul mentality. So grown up and start treating people properly and that way you might be able to stop chasing a shrinking seniority list.

And yes I'm doing something about it. Plans are being put in place now as I type and I'm away ASAP!!!

[CamelRustler]

I would love to see how they plan on giving me 5 days off in a row when my entire month is eight days off. My guess is 330 guys lose again. Oh, and again, and again........

[alwayzinit]

So after reading the user guide, there is no way to bid for just freighter trips ? you have to bid specific flight numbers?
What an arse ache!

[donpizmeov]

And released just in time for Christmas. Gotta love their timing.

[sluggums]

Eh? You're joining in a couple of months and you want to see a roster 'just to have an idea of how bad it can get'..... Speechless:ugh:

[ExDubai]

@Musing Monk I doubt that anybody of the active EK guys will do this. If you want to know why, ask about the EK social media policy.

If you want to know how worse it could be, have a look at this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/565032-rosters-today-days-off-4.html

[The Outlaw]

Speechless....a very understated expression.

Monk, do you operate an aircraft with as much reckless regard as you regard your career? Are you really asking to see a 777 roster AFTER you have accepted a job here?

ARE YOU FOCKING INSANE? or do you have a problem with comprehension?


.......I give up....you deserve what awaits!


Why do we even bother....let them find out the hard way.

[SOPS]

Dear everyone,

I have decided to hold a gun to my head and pull the trigger. Can anyone post a screen shot of what might happen, to give me an idea of how bad it might get?

I am just....speechless.......

[Kapitanleutnant]

Monk..

You really deserve the sh*te you're getting from everyone.

Did you not do your research on what its like to really to fly at EK before not only interviewing, but getting hired, probably quitting a flying job somewhere else (which you will probably wished you had not left after about 6-9 months)????

Just wow……….. Lol, yet another lamb to the slaughter, and he doesn't even know it!!

K

[donpizmeov]

Flydubai don't pay on time? Really?

[sluggums]

But Monk, despite knowing that those are the replies you were going to get, you still posted.... Puzzling.

Perspective... That's just funny...

... and you do understand the conditions are bad. But you still come. Oh, let me guess... Just like all the others who come and then start moaning after a year or so, you think it'll be different for you. Jeez.

[KanyouEast]

Just as an aside....so if you are TOP bid with reserve the month after, you cannot bid for a flight running into the reserve month ( it will not even show such trips under the "view available pairings" button )....that sucks!

[halas]

Seaman...I'm thinking that TCAS is already down at the bar and has run out of f#cks to give.

Kanyou...Was top bid in September, and although l did not use the Jepp, the old CRS had one reserve day plonked right on the 1st of October in the calendar.
So everything l bid that went into October was rejected.
Once rosters were out however, l swapped onto a 10 day trip. Nine days into October! :ugh:

halas

[CDRW]

Monk - if anything you now have a perspective of the type of individuals you going to be working with.

[777-200LR]

Monk,

As you can see there are still some morons on here that believe their advance has managed to keep everyone from joining EK. They are 'speechless' because they have spent most of their time off/days off preaching in the hope that they are heard and believed. You had your reasons why you joined, so my advice is stop trying to convince anyone why it was a good (or bad) decision to join EK and get on with your career. You will find pilots that have left EK ages ago and still post replies here...which leaves me speechless!!

777-200LR

[AlanPardew]

Monk,

As you can see there are still some morons on here that believe their advance has managed to keep everyone from joining EK. They are 'speechless' because they have spent most of their time off/days off preaching in the hope that they are heard and believed. You had your reasons why you joined, so my advice is stop trying to convince anyone why it was a good (or bad) decision to join EK and get on with your career. You will find pilots that have left EK ages ago and still post replies here...which leaves me speechless!!

777-200LR

1. People are saying they're speechless because someone is joining an airline without knowing what the roster will look like

2. It's beyond most of us why people who left still post: the Australian with his possibly fictional canine companions and the bitter ground staff girl need to get hobbies.

Alan

[SOPS]

I assure you, they are not fictional. I will send you the vet bills if you like. Carry on.

[AlanPardew]

I assure you, they are not fictional. I will send you the vet bills if you like. Carry on.

Maybe they wouldn't need frequent visits to the vets if you walked them once in a while rather than spending all day sat on Internet forums

[vfenext]

SOPS, going quickly from bitter n twisted to sad n pathetic. Put down the keyboard and get some of that fresh air you keep talking about. You're not convincing anyone that you're enjoying retirement. Let it go!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Al super Al, Al super Al, Al super Al, super Alan Pardew

SOPS is without doubt giving the impression he's missing the gig, or more possibly he's got too much time off.

It will only get better for guys left behind if more people join at a higher rate than they are leaving. I suspect its currently the other way round.

Up the Palace :\:\

[BYMONEK]

Someone started on the sauce early! :hmm:

[olster]

Alan Pardew, you are very funny and quite a good football manager...

cheers

[trent1974]

Love the pat on the back they just gave themselves in the latest Flt Ops update.

"95% success rate on all requests across all fleets and ranks".

So what they are basically saying is that 95% of 2/5ths of the pilot group got ONE thing that they asked for.

Bravo. I was getting that in my bottom bid month

[linedriva]

trent1974

That's a perfect response and puts the 95% into perspective. :ok: