APO - what is the substantive rank?

[India Four Two]

After two years in UBAS in the 60s as a Cadet Pilot and after obtaining my Budgie Wings, I was commissioned as an Acting Pilot Officer.

I've been prompted to ask a question about the Acting part of my rank, after reading a marvellous biography of Bill Slim:

"Uncle Bill: The Authorised Biography of Field Marshal Viscount Slim" by Russell Miller.

It was of particular interest to me, because my Dad was a tank driver at Imphal.

I read that in 1944, Slim held the acting rank of Lieutenant General, but the substantive rank of Colonel.

After reading that, it made me wonder about the whole "acting rank" business and in particular, my rank. Since Pilot Officer is the lowest officer rank, and I was an APO, what was my substantive rank? Cadet Pilot or something else - AC?

[Wander00]

During the second Chindit expedition Maj John Masters was for some time an acting Maj Gen, and for 6 hours or so a Lt Gen. He gave up earing badges of rank. He also became stepfather to Sir Michael Rose, and even more famous soldier

[Pontius Navigator]

I42, you could have it right except you were awarded a commissioning scroll.

More akin to a Middy I guess.

[Lordflasheart]

Since Pilot Officer is the lowest officer rank, and I was an APO, what was my substantive rank? Cadet Pilot or something else - AC?

Civvy ? :E ...... LFH

[Tankertrashnav]

Pretty sure that your substantive rank is the one you are paid at, which would mean the substantive rank of an APO is APO! But I stand to be corrected on that. Definitely not AC - you ceased to be an AC the day you were commissioned.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, correction, a number of flt lt were made acting sqn ldr when posted to international bullets and paid at the sqn ldr rate. I know some were then made substantive in tour or after.

The other substantive was the A/Cpl Unpaid RAFP - rank authority above their pay grade :).

[Old-Duffer]

In the case of Slim and others, you are getting involvement in the war substantive rank system, with its temporary, local acting, acting, substantive and war substantive ranks.

In the RAF the affect of this can be seen in the post-war regrading and rebadging of NCO aircrew and the wholesale reassessment of officers' rank, the former in 1946 and the latter in 1947 IIRC.

If you can find anybody who can explain the system and its funny bits in less than 10000 words, please put them in touch.

Finally, I was led to believe that 'Acting Pilot Officer' is actually a substantive rank - someone will quickly put me right if that's wrong!!

Old Duffer

[India Four Two]

Thanks everyone for a really interesting discussion.

So Acting is Substantive in my case? ;)

Civvy ? :E ...... LFH

:D

[Jumping_Jack]

Officer Cadet?

[Lordflasheart]

Civvy ? :(.


Simon - for RN flying training in the 50s/60s, including the various OFSs after Wings, IIRC it was usually here today and gone tomorrow if you were chopped or withdrew.

My late F-i-L started his WWII as a substantive Squadron Leader and ended the war as a newly promoted Flying Officer.

[Wander00]

Lord Flasheart - can you expand on that - seems very odd

[Wensleydale]

I believe that the "Acting" bit makes it easier to take away just in case they made a mistake at Officer Training........

[ShotOne]

For detail of the effect of aircrew rank read The Eigth Passenger by Miles Tripp. After VE Day many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.

[CoffmanStarter]

OD, I42 ...

Someone has had a go here ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_pilot_officer

[Four Types]

When I was an APO we looked into this...it turned out the only 'commissioned' rank lower than APO was in fact a Midshipman! I did eventually reach the giddy heights of 'SPOSNI' - Senior Pilot Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland for a very short period. Over the next 34 years I didn't get much higher!

[andyy]

By PN, "More akin to a Middy I guess."

Midshipmen can be Commissioned. Not usual these days but thats a relatively modern situation since people started joining up slightly older, and often as graduates, hence only being a Midshipman for one year.

In the early 80s there was a well known photo in the national press of a Sea King at Culdrose being flown by its first ever all Midshipman crew; by definition all had passed out of BRNC and were Commissioned.

[langleybaston]

My knowledge is rather Army based [sorry about that] but I believe Substantive rank is/was the rank below which one could not be reduced without due process of Court Martial.

[MOSTAFA]

Substantive rank is your real rank and the rank with seniority that you are paid as. Acting Rank is precisely that acting (you still get the pay but your seniority is only in your substantive rank i.e. the one below whatever your acting as. The other funny one is local rank, you wear the badge but thats it, no pay or at least thats the way it used to be.

[Exascot]

What was that other anomaly? If the boss (Wg Cdr in my case) was away and you were acting boss you got paid as such but it had to be a certain length of time. A month?

[PARALLEL TRACK]

We had the SNOWMAN at Lossie.

Senior Naval Officer West Moray and Nairn. I seem to remember he worked in the sim whilst holding a reserve commitment. I guess he was SPOSNI's boss!

[goudie]

many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.
Happened to a late friend of mine who flew 18 sorties in Halifaxes, before crashing, on approach with 3 engines. Not sure if he was actually demoted (Flt Sgt) but at war's end he, along with other NCO aircrew were posted to St Athens awaiting demob.
The Flt Sgt (admin) who delegated them to carry out menial tasks around the Station told them that they weren't 'proper NCO's' in his view!
Shameful!

[Stuff]

Exascot, that's substitution pay. You wear your own rank but get paid as if you were your boss' rank.

MOSTAFA - My experience is quite different. Substantive Flt Lt, 2 years as acting Sqn Ldr on various operations, return to being Flt Lt back in UK, get promoted and started on Sqn Ldr pay band 3. Time spend as a/Sqn Ldr counted for the incremental pay.

[Pom Pax]

Perhaps probationary would be a better description of APO status.
My mate "Stan" had a similar problem to Todger in the tread RAF Pilot Tour lengths, etc (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/563466-raf-pilot-tour-lengths-etc.html) in that his fiancée decided she didn't want to be an aircrew's wife. Now Stan had joined on the 8 / 12 scheme and was no longer acting. So Stan quits flying training....but he is signed up for 12 years.....off to the Isle of Man with you young boy shuffling papers. Very inconvenient when fiancée lives in South London, so he wants to resign. Right young man you may resign but you have not completed your National Service commitment so you will make up that time as a/c2 where ever we send you. Immediate change of heart....Please can I go back to Nav school? That's what happened but he won in the end, he got out after a little over 2 years but I think it cost him a bit.
So perhaps the substantive rank is a/c 2 even if you are no longer acting.

[Biggus]

I once had to "fill in" for my boss while he was away for several months. There was no talk of acting rank, but the subject of "substitution pay" was raised.

My initial reaction was, "I'm not taking a pay cut..!" At the time my boss was a Sqn Ldr Engineer, while I was PA aircrew. However, there is apparently a rule to cover this sort of situation, covering for someone of higher rank but lower pay, and I eventually got a (very) modest pay increase for the extra work and responsibility while was boss was away.

[99 Change Hands]

Senior Naval Officer Leeming had SNOL below his hat peg in the mess. The NUAS tradition was to amend it to reflect the fact that the aircraft did most of their flying from Topcliffe.

[late-joiner]

What was that other anomaly? If the boss (Wg Cdr in my case) was away and you were acting boss you got paid as such but it had to be a certain length of time. A month?

In the 90s was known in the Army as POHR or pay of higher rank. At some stage in th 00s became known as substitution pay. The useful thing was that under afps 05 it was pensionable and counted towards "the highest amount earned over 12 months during your last 3 years of service" when calculating your pension.

[Tankertrashnav]

Pontius navigator - I stand corrected. I remember the "green shield" squadron leaders on the shiny fleet who got their rank by virtue of sitting in the LHS of a VC10. Most of them kept it, I think, but I'm sure there were one or two highly p***ed off guys who had to revert to Flt Lt on posting to less glamorous aircraft!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Senior Naval Officer Leeming had SNOL below his hat peg in the mess. The NUAS tradition was to amend it to reflect the fact that the aircraft did most of their flying from Topcliffe.


In the 1980's the Canadian Navy started allowing women to serve at sea. Most were pretty good people but there was one quite highly obnoxious women LCdr supply officer.

She was frequently referred to as the "Senior Officer Females Afloat" :E

[Herod]

There is the story, probably apocryphal, about the Chief Officer WRAF, who complained to her senior that the acronym was offensive. The following day: "Henceforth the title Chief Officer WRAF is to be amended to Senior Officer WRAF".

[Lordflasheart]

Wander - Lord Flasheart - can you expand on that - seems very odd He started off as a Chaplain (minimum rank Squadron Leader) about 1940 but remustered as an A P/O for pilot training (in Rhodesia) where he remained instructing (creamed off ?) for the duration. Back with his family in 1945 and demobbed as Flying Officer in 1946.

Don't even consider asking why he might have thought that G*bothering might have less effect than H**bombing in time of need. He returned to his previously chosen vocation after the war. I was late on the scene and there is not much in the way of family record.

We're in the process of getting his service record to examine the details. ........ LFH

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, indeed, one such I first met as an OpsO at ASI and later as 'the pilot' in the Nav School. He kept applying for a posting back to the shiney fleet but all they would offer was Andovers which he declined as Mrs ANS Pilot had a well paid job in in Retford.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stuff, did you get 're-ranking allowance up, down and up again?

[Army Mover]

My step-father was an acting Flt Lt bomb aimer during WW2; on his return to the UK, as he chose to stay in, he was demoted to his sub rank of FSgt, sent on leave, then promoted to WO one month later when he got back to his Squadron.

[Rosevidney1]

A Navy friend of mine was briefly Senior Naval Officer Gulf (SNOG). Everyone found it funny except his wife.

[Cabe LeCutter]

Pontius.

You should have shared an office with the pilot,:p I did for 9 months. Not a happy bear. :E

Heads down, look out for the flak.

[Exascot]

TTN There were many Flt Lts at BZN in my time with a big gap between the two stripes. I seem to remember that a posting to the OCU was not popular as you lost the little thin one in the middle. A certain Flt Lt PA (now AVM) had a Gp Capt in the jump seat when there was a flt deck visit. He was asked if he was going to take over for the landing. 'Good Lord', he said, 'no, I am a doctor'.

[Pontius Navigator]

CL, I know. All he wanted to do was fly a plane. He was astonished when two US navs said we weren't bothered. What we wanted to do was fly to different places than where we had taken off from.

[Stuff]

Stuff, did you get 're-ranking allowance up, down and up again?

Only on the substantive. The others were for 4 lots of 6 month dets with no need for No 1s or 5s.

[teeteringhead]

Mate of mine got acting rank (of sqn ldr) for a (3 year I think) exchange tour in the Middle East.

Went down to Flt Lt on his return, and took great delight in asking in the General Office (in a loud voice) "How do I claim a demotion allowance for re-ranking?"

Think he got it too! :ok:

[Wander00]

Flasheart - thanks - there had to be a "story".

[Brian 48nav]

In the transport world, 'Green Shield' referred to young chaps with university degrees who after South Cerney/Church Fenton spent 6 months as Plt Off, 9 months as Fg Off and then became Flt Lts without having to take the B exam' - the latter promotion coming while they were still in the training machine.

A source of great contention and irritation to those of us, particularly Fg Off captains, who although second tour were junior to brand new first tourers. Why the RAF gave seniority to someone who had never worked before joining and perhaps had a degree in 'underwater basket weaving' or some other useless subject, was a mystery to many of us.

Re VC10 commands the phrase used by us was, 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or a VC10 captain?'.

[oxenos]

A story was told in the mid 70's of a chap walking into Gieves, putting a Sqn.Ldr's jacket on the counter and saying " I want that re-braided"
Uriah Heep type behind counter says "May I be the first to congratulate you, sir."
"F*** O** - they've just posted me off VC10s"
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.

[Heathrow Harry]

some of the most amazing rags-to-riches-to rags occurred in the US Civil War and its aftermath

George Custer went to Major General in the War and back to Captain afterwards......

[Tankertrashnav]

Brian - yes I remember the term well. We had one on our nav course who was a chopped pilot and had already reached the dizzy rank of flight lieutenant. 2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir", and so we had the crazy situation of this guy calling our maths instructor, a flying officer Education Officer "sir" - much to his amusement. At least this guy had a maths degree, which was a bit more relevant to the job than underwater basket weaving. Mind you he still got miffed when I regularly beat him in our frequent mental arithmetic tests. As he never failed to remind me arithmetic isn't maths, but I thought that was just sour grapes!

[Tankertrashnav]

Brian - yes I remember the term well. We had one on our nav course, who was a chopped pilot and had already reached the dizzy rank of flight lieutenant. 2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir", and so we had the crazy situation of this guy calling our maths instructor, a flying officer education officer "sir" - much to his amusement. At least this guy had a maths degree, which was a bit more relevant to the job than underwater basket weaving. Mind you he still got miffed when I regularly beat him in our frequent mental arithmetic tests. As he never failed to remind me arithmetic isn't maths, but I thought that was just sour grapes!

[Pontius Navigator]

Is there an echo in the room?:p

[Pontius Navigator]

Oxenos, of course the other sign was the wide spacing between the two rings.

Brian, I believe the Army had the equivalent of green shield. The story went something like this:

Newly posted officer, straight from Sandhurst, arriving at his regiment.

CO in loud voice "You there", or words to that effect, "what's that on your shoulder?"

NPO looks at shoulder expecting to see bird poo but only sees 3 shiney pips, " my rank, Sir."

"Get them off, you're a subaltern until I tell you otherwise."

True or not, probably a sensible thing
A chief would help a fg off JENGO but expect a flt lt to know his stuff.

[BEagle]

Re Green Shield Flt Lts, in the early '70s, University Entrants to RAFC received an increment if they'd achieved a First. But had to do 6 months as Plt Off before the promotion kicked in. As there were 4 entries per year, this meant that some arrived on the last entry of the years to start IOT as Flt Lts without having done previous time pre-university as Flt Cdts.

One chap on 17 GE actually outranked his ex-supplementary list blanket-stacker flight commander, who was only an acting Flt Lt..... Fortunately they both saw the funny side of such a system.

Another, with increments for having been an ex-App and having also been a Flt Cdt, never served any time as a Fg Off - due to the 6 month thing, he went straight from Plt Off to Flt Lt.....:\

[langleybaston]

The army certainly had similar anomalies in the Great War.
Robert Graves was embarrassed and amused by his elevation.

As a Special Reserve officer of the RWF he was promoted on the regimental SR list. There was a lot of dying going on.

By the time he reached the Front he was a captain, very young, with zero experience, now serving alongside subalterns holding temporary war-time commissions with months of trench exposure.

The compounding anomaly was that regulars of any rank were senior to those of the SR of the same rank, who were in turn senior to TF. This was later addressed.

[JW411]

My first posting after Flying Training was to Benson on the Argosy in 1962.

There was a Corporal in the General Office who sported wings and a DFC etc. He had been field-promoted during WW II to Wg Cdr in charge of a Mustang Wing and he left in 1946 in his substantive rank of Sgt Pilot.

He hated civvie street so much that he re-joined as an airman.

[goudie]

F*** O** - they've just posted me off VC10s"
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.

When a VC-10 arrived at RAF Akrotiri, in '65 it was met by
the new Station Commander, Air Cdre C D North-Lewis. The story went round among the aircrew on my Sqdn
that, after welcoming the Sqn/Ldr captain he ordered him to report to the Station barbers, before entering the OM!

[Brian 48nav]

IIRC the story about a VC10 captain being taken to the barber's shop by Akrotiri staish was about 1971 - lots of us in the transport fleet were being invited to have our sideburns and droopy moustaches trimmed by our respective OC stations then!

The first RAF VC10 flew late '65 and the squadron didn't form until well into '66.

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian, that stains would have been Air Cdre Stacey, a larger than life character one of whose claims to fame was reserving the Ladies Room for a personal function suite and mess guests for the bar. He had another suite down at movements again with a mess guests tab.

[MPN11]

Late on parade ... sorry, been on holiday. :cool:

1. The 2 "Letters from Betty" on the wall behind me have "Acting Pilot Officer" as our commissioned rank. Having been involved in later years with re-selecting APOs who did not make the grade in professional training, the first consideration was that they had already been commissioned .. and thus had to be found a suitable place for their 'officer-ness' in a different Branch. Eviction was a last resort.

2. During our stormy trip on the good ship SS Uganda to FI, one of the pax was the RN lt who was going to be "OC Troops" on the SS Rangatira, moored for accommodation purposes in the Inner Harbour at Port Stanley. He was christened 'Senior Naval Officer, The Rangatira", or SNOTRAG. He was not very amused.

[goudie]

Brian 48 nav

You're probably right. I may have heard it when I was on Brits, but these days I'm not a reliable source!:confused:

[Herod]

'underwater basket weaving'
'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or a VC10 captain?'

Two phrases I haven't heard these last thirty years. I remember being in Gan one night, as part of a Hercules crew, when I was woken by one of the mess staff. "Sorry Sir, you'll have to move to the non-air-conditioned rooms. We have a VC10 crew coming in". No amount of arguing would change it, and the entire crew, including the captain, had to shift.

[Tankertrashnav]

I've told this one before, about the unwise VC10 LM who called out "there go the tankertrash" from the door of his air conditioned room at Akrotiri as a hot and sweaty Victor crew plodded to their (non air conditioned) rooms. Unfortunately for him the crew contained a very fiery sqn Ldr nav who promptly had said SNCO evicted and a couple of the guys on his crew moved in. The VC10's tame squadron leader took umbrage and complained to the Station Commander, who to his eternal credit backed the tanker nav to the hilt.

South Cerney grads who remember a very bristly red headed nav on the DS will know who I am talking about. You could have done with him on Hercs, Herod!

[ian16th]

Can this old man ask for help? One that did spend a year in Transport Command.

What was so special with the VC10 that needed a Sqd Ldr to drive one?

[Brian 48nav]

I think I've told this one before too - I was a member of a Herc' crew night-stopping Gan. In the afternoon we were having a few bevvies in the Blue Lagoon, dressed in shorts, short-sleeved shirts and flip flops etc. About 6.30 in walks a VC10 captain in slacks, long sleeved shirt and tie ( why we were expected to dress like that in the tropics G*d knows! ) etc and stands at the bar nursing his beer.

As 7pm approached he kept looking at us and pointing at his watch - we indicated that we were just finishing our beers and then would head off to change. Finally at 7pm he came across and said ' Right you lot, you are improperly dressed, go and get changed now!'

Just as we got up the swing doors opened and in walked a Victor tanker crew, dressed in sweaty flying suits with dangly bits of tubing hanging from them, at their head was a Wg Cdr pilot who rubbed his hands together and shouted,'My round lads what you'll be having?'. At this point VC10 captain sloped off to the dining room and we of course got another round in!

[Exascot]

Who came up with the idea of making 10 Sqn Capts acting Sqn Ldr? A 10 Sqn Capt? Such an odd idea. Four gold bars :ok: but 2 and a half blue ones :confused:

[Innominate]

What was so special with the VC10 that needed a Sqd Ldr to drive one?

I've heard it said that the idea was to prevent Flt Lt VC 10 captains defecting to the airlines who were operating the type.

[Exascot]

What was so special with the VC10 that a Sqd (sic) Ldr to drive one?

Just because it was but still an odd decision.

[Biggus]

It was nothing to do with flying the aircraft. I was always told that it was so the Captain had more "clout" for sorting out issues on the ground while down the route, help avoid the aircraft being delayed etc - don't forget there was still quite a few remnants of Empire left in the late 60s.

[ICM]

Even 35 years after the Air Force Board decision of 1968 was reversed, it seems it's still necessary to explain that it was brought about in an attempt to rectify a persistent undermanning situation. (If you have Jeff Jefford's "Observers and Navigators," you'll find it explained at length on p 219.) It was originally aimed at both VC10 and Comet fleets - but with so few Comets in service, and that service terminated in 1976 as the Transport Force was reduced by 50%, it became effectively something that was seen by the world at large as something exclusive to 10 Squadron. (It's a mystery to me still that the decision was never applied to the V-Force.)

As a retention measure, it was almost certainly a failure and, regardless of its intentions, 10 Sqn captains took their share of the post-75 compulsory redundancy scheme aimed primarily at 'reduced forces.' The impression that was abroad amongst most of the Service as a result of the decision was by no means lost on successive Sqn COs but, as it had started as an AFB decision, all attempts in the 70s to have it reviewed were rebuffed accordingly. Circumstances must have changed by 1980 when the scheme was rescinded.

And as it happens, the Specialist Aircrew scheme grew out of the same undermanning concerns of the later-60s. History may record that idea as having attracted wider popularity.

[binbrook]

Re the Green Shield VC10 captains, was it true that the station magazine at one of the transport bases (Brize?) had accepted a QANTAS ad for pilots? Date c1965 - about the time of the Waddington dinner, and the pay award which gave us less than the rise in the rent of a quarter.

[Wander00]

Looks like they should have made VC10 captains gp capts, then they would have had the money, and looked like Captains too....hat, coat..........

[oxenos]

QANTAS ad for pilots?

Qantas wantus!

[Pom Pax]

TTN wrote
2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir"
Our course instructors were Bill, Fred & Brian from day one. They called us by our first names except occasionally when they wished to differentiate between Brian J & Brian S. Likewise very rarely were they ever addressed as "Sir". They said that was the way they wanted it and I don't think it lessened our respect of them.

I would like to hear Pontious' memory of this subject as his 2ANS time was between yours (TTN) and mine to put a time line on this change.

[Wander00]

Certainly our QFIs at the Towers (including the two FS pilot QFIs) 64/65 and at Valley 1966 were "Sir". My QFI at Bassingbourn was "Robin"

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I got substitution pay covering for my flight commander while she was on ops, then took over from her in theatre as Det Co, but with acting unpaid rank.

I got paid more as a Flt Lt at home than I did as a Sqn Ldr on Ops.:hmm:

[Lima Juliet]

Back to the original thread - surely the substantive rank of Acting Pilot Officer is Pilot Officer? I seem to remember that prior to being an APO that I was in the London Gazette as an AC.

LJ

[ExAscoteer]

I was certainly Gazetted as an APO so I would assume that that is the substantive rank.

Thet Wiki article referenced above is somewhat disengenuous claiming that APO is the lowest Commissioned rank in the British Armed Forces given that (certainly when I was an APO) it was directly equivalent to the Navy's rank of Midshipman and the Army's 'Second Lieutenant On probation'.

The idea that it is somehow equal to Officer Cadet is also not true. At Cranwell (although we were treated with equal contempt and wore the white flashes) we were referred to as 'Student Officer' whereas the direct entrants (even if they had degrees) were referred to as 'Officer Cadet'.

[thing]

After VE Day many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.

They weren't all demoted either. My father was an MT Fitter in Hamburg just after the war and he was appalled at having highly decorated NCO aircrew fetching tools for him. They were heroes to him (and everyone else I would assume.) He always thought their treatment was disgraceful

[Pontius Navigator]

Pom Pax, my memory o f that is a bit dim. We had Roger McCrann for 41 Course until 16/18 of us had an administrative recourse. The chop rate was too low and 1ANS could not cope. Roger was a wild batchelor and many was the mess fine for broken glass etc as he led us in hectic sessions late at night. Then we had George Kaye, married and an altogether more stable character.

Though I remember their name, and one of the two at 1ANS I don't recall using their first names. I think it was probably a hang over from school days as most of us were literally just out of school. I think Mac Browse and Harry Sime were older.
Only at BCBS did we call Larry Robinson, Larry, but that because we had 3rd and 4th tourists in the course.

[JW411]

QANTAS:

I remember the big drive by QANTAS to recruit RAF pilots. I think the year was 1964 and morale in Transport Command was not at its highest. I was at Benson on the Argosy at the time. One night, someone went round sticking posters on buildings and lamposts round the station:

"If you don't want us - QANTAS wants us".

The station commander was not too pleased.

One of our captains, accepted an offer to join QANTAS and resigned his commission.

"You can't resign" said they. "You can only apply to PVR".

"Where does is say that?" said he. "Naval and Army officers can resign. Why can't I?"

It all got a bit heated and Joe eventually told them that he and his family would be departing Heathrow on a QANTAS flight on such-and-such a date having resigned his commission and if they wanted to stop him then they would have to attend Terminal 3 where he would be happy to introduce them to the Daily Mirror reporter and photographer.

I believe he had a long career with Queensland and Northern Territories Aerial Services.

[Union Jack]

I remember the big drive by QANTAS to recruit RAF pilots. - JW411

As a very simple but worthwhile source of "recruits", QANTAS used to lay on superb parties, attended by some of their most attractive girls, whenever a British carrier visited Sydney or Fremantle. :ok:

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

It's a mystery to me still that the decision was never applied to the V-Force.
.
A contemporary advert was that you could be a flt lt, V-Force captain at the age of 23. While the responsibility was awesome, 4 individuals, a million pound aircraft, and a megaton weapon, there was not the same down-route responsibility of the transport driver. The latter were presumably much older too. I know a fair number of 10 pilots came from the V-Force.

[Union Jack]

While the responsibility was awesome, 4 individuals, a million pound aircraft, and a megaton weapon, there was not the same down-route responsibility of the transport driver. - PN

:uhoh:

Jack

[Herod]

Jack. I'm totally bemused too. Must be hell trying to sort out hotac, fuel etc (isn't that what you've got a co-pilot and engineer for?) I wonder how I managed to survive 17,000 hours as an airline captain... such awesome responsibility.

[goudie]

I maybe wrong but I detect a hint of sarcasm in PN's post

(isn't that what you've got a co-pilot and engineer for?)

Not to mention the cabin staff, to organise the down route parties!

[Yellow Sun]

It didn't matter whether I was flying a Vulcan, Nimrod, Jet Provost or an Airbus. I still had the privilege of being the first one at the scene of the accident.

YS:rolleyes:

[India Four Two]

At Cranwell (although we were treated with equal contempt and wore the white flashes) we were referred to as 'Student Officer' whereas the direct entrants (even if they had degrees) were referred to as 'Officer Cadet'.

The non-commissioned UAS members were 'Cadet Pilots'. We wore hairy battle-dress with white flashes and a beret, with a white disk behind the badge.

We were on first name terms with our Flight Lieutenant QFIs, but the CFI was Sir and the CO was Sir or Boss.

[Tankertrashnav]

Just looked at my 168 OCTU course photo from 1964 and there are a number of SOs among the rest of us OCs. These were blokes who had degrees and got enhanced seniority after commissioning, but were indistinguishable in uniform from the rest of us and were certainly not treated any differently. The respect went to the "hairies" (ex NCOs) who were also classified as officer cadets. Among their number were a couple of decorated Master Pilots who we were in awe of, but they still had to muck in on bull sessions with the rest of us.

[MPN11]

TTN ... Dammit, I can't even find a 172 [Yellow] Course photo, but there must be one here somewhere :(

As with your Course, there was a well-balanced mix of 'hairy aircrew', SOs and OCs. Apart from 'respecting our elders', there were certainly no 'betters' in the melting pot ... just a bunch of assorted characters working hard to graduate on 1 April 1965 ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Also yellow squadron, of course, as the colours repeated every four courses. Our graduation date was 16 December 1964, two weeks before my 18th birthday. I was the youngest officer in the armed forces until a chap on 171 course (I believe) who was younger than me graduated.

[Mr C Hinecap]

I was told that the substantive rank of Acting Pilot Officer was Pilot Officer.

APO was an honour, not a rank. As someone who held the position of SAPONI for a few months, I often reflect on the magnitude of such weighty responsibility; that of being both the Senior and the Solitary Acting Pilot Officer, Northern Ireland.