GPS Tracking

[MichiScholz]

Hello,

is there any experience with a fixed mounted GPS tracking system which can display the tracks over a webservice like tracking systems for ships or containers?

Does anybody can recomend an approved system?

[MarcK]

ADS-B is GPS based

[Flyting]

spider tracks

[noooby]

Skytrac. Fixed or portable system, displayed on any computer through the portal with username/password.

[MichiScholz]

Skytrac seems to do what I am looking for. Can anybody tell something about costs?

On their webpage I found some information about the power requirement which brougt me to the question can you disable the system simply by unpowering the device?

I would prefer some device which does not require a power source but is capable of sending data for at least one year without reloading.

Any advice?

[Boessie]

Have a look at this website, they have carry on trackers:

Blue Sky Network |Satellite Tracking, SATCOM (http://blueskynetwork.com/)

Boessie

[whoknows idont]

I would prefer some device which does not require a power source but is capable of sending data for at least one year without reloading.

Transmitting without a power source is impossible per definition.

edit: Skytrac is pricey but a highly capable system and popular with many big operators. Although I don't think it's the theft retrieval system you seem to be looking for.

[RVDT]

Start here (https://iridium.com/ProductList.aspx?productCategoryID=14).

Most of what is available is covered.

The Yellowbrick YB3 may cover what you seem to be looking for.

[MichiScholz]

I am looking for a tracking device simmilar to this GPS tracking devices. Low cost high quality GPS tracking devices. (http://www.tracks360.com/tracking-products/the-m360-gps-tracking-device-long-battery-life/)

which can be used in the helicopter with STC or however accepted by the authorities. This system should not require an onboard power supply and it should not be possible to switch it off.

The idea behind is to track the time in a leased helicopter from a remote position at the other side of the world. In short words, we want to have some reliable source to verify the log entries.

[RVDT]

This system should not require an onboard power supply and it should not be possible to switch it off.

Good luck with that.

SPOT Trace is possibly the closest you can get.

[whoknows idont]

If it's supposed to be totally independent why bother with STC? Just get the non-aviation tracker and find a nice place to hide it.

[EMS R22]

Get a second hobbs wired in were no one can find it.

[Hot and Hi]

SPOT Trace is possibly the closest you can get.On face value that seems to be a very good solution for what you need in order to check on the true utilisation and the whereabouts of your asset.

I can't speak from own experience for the satellite communication uplink (SPOT uses the Global Star Low Earth Orbit satellite network to upload the tracker's position), but in my experience the position of the GPS receiver is fairly uncritical in a helicopter (owing to the large Plexiglas canopy of most models). I have stuck small GPS receivers (without external aerial) under the seat, without any perceivable loss loss of position fix.

There is lots of talk about the requirement of the GPS receiver to have unobstructed view of the sky, etc., but in my experience in the front seats (or even the rear seats in a Robinson style helicopter) this is not an issue. As mentioned before, anything non solid metal, like plastic, leather or seat cushions don't seem to impair the reception of the GPS signal from the sky.

The SPOT Trace may also be a good entry level option for flight tracking (meeting your legal requirement for flight following in commercial operations) - at least better than simply relying on the pilot calling in "safe" after each landing. The next level up product from SPOT (the Gen3) adds a few useful features that the Trace is missing when it comes to flight following (such as "check-in OK", "Help" and "SOS" buttons), all at a fraction of the purchase and operating costs of Spidertracks.

[krypton_john]

> If it's supposed to be totally independent why bother with STC? Just get the non-aviation tracker and find a nice place to hide it.

The non aviation ones are typically cellular whereas the aviation ones are satellite so the geographical coverage is 100%

[Palma]

Look at buddi - a low cost, very accurate tracking device which has its own power supply. See buddi.co.uk.

[krypton_john]

It's cellular though. Maybe not so much the case in the UK but in NZ, Australia, Canada, Africa etc there are vast areas with no cellular coverage. In such places you need a satellite based device.

[whoknows idont]

Only if you basically need real-time tracking. I think for his application it would be enough if the unit would send data from say the last week or two once it reaches coverage? Would still serve the purpose of checking on the records provided by the operator.

[krypton_john]

Oh, yes I can see your point.

[NickLappos]

Spot Gen 3 satellite tracker is low cost (about $150 purchase price), fully independent system. For about $100 to $150 per year, provides real-time tracking and emergency alerts, as well as rescue capability. I have one and used it on a recent cross the US flight, where it worked well.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I haven't looked at SPOT recently but 6 months ago Spidertracks was still the better solution for tracking because in case of an emergency you don't need to press any buttons, because you might be unable to do so, and the unit due to it's non movement for x minutes deduces there is a problem and sends an emergency message...

This makes it a passive emergency system if you know what I mean. It's sort of set up and forget.

And no I am not connected with them...

[Etouffee]

You get what you pay for so if you go cheap you will get cheap. If this unit is deployed on the other side of the globe and you are using it to determine a revenue stream your better off going with a good system.

FlightCell has a nice system which is easy to install and great functionality and you can use any mapping/tracking solution you want (almost). You have to get the Sim card independent from the unit but that's pretty easy.

SkyConnect and SkyTrac are very similar in build and equipment cost but very in data service cost. Both good systems and they have their own software/mapping

BlueSky is similar to SkyConnect and SkyTrac but the hardware is different and they do have some handheld options. They have a mapping component but IMO not as good/easy as the others.

Your best bet would be to hard wire the power to the aircraft so the unit starts with the aircraft. You need to consider if you want to use Squat switches to signify takeoff and landing or an algorithm of speed and position and that decision may effect the device you would like to use. You can also modify polling rate to suit your needs/costs.

There is a fixed cost per month for most services so even if you don't fly it will run you between $50 to $85 per month.

If you plan to use the Sat Phone at all and your on iridium I would suggest using the gateway to place calls to the aircraft. It's much cheaper. If you plan to have any volume of calls from the aircraft I would also suggest a second unit set up to receive calls on the ground. Sat -Sat is cheaper than Sat to Land.

Also remember that Sat is not 100% uptime, the system can and will go down at times so you will see gaps sometimes in your polling which could effect takeoff and landing. With that, devices can also stop working so it is good to monitor on a regular basis while in flight. If you are using GPS for position the GPS data link can fail or the transceiver can just stop working. Sometimes a power recycle to the unit can fix this but if your system is hardwired that won't be possible.

Sorry for the long post (could have been longer). Hope you find a system that works for your needs!

[MichiScholz]

Thank you for your detailed post, I will take a closer look on the recomended systems, especially the flight cell systems seem to be very interesting.

[Hot and Hi]

It's cellular though. Maybe not so much the case in the UK but in NZ, Australia, Canada, Africa etc there are vast areas with no cellular coverage. In such places you need a satellite based device.

Only if you basically need real-time tracking. I think for his application it would be enough if the unit would send data from say the last week or two once it reaches coverage? Would still serve the purpose of checking on the records provided by the operator.

Are you sure that Buddi in particular, or GPRS (cellular)-based trackers in general, store weeks' worth of position data in non-volatile memory (for as long as they don't find "network"), in order to then dump all unsent data, all at once, at the next occasion they get a network "signal"? :hmm:

Be that as it may: The OP probably not only want to check - post factum - on the actual utilisation of his asset, but might also wish to be able to recover his asset if things don't work out as per agreement between him and the client. So where do you go look for your aircraft, if it is outside GSM network coverage?

We have decided for the SPOT devices (Trace for asset tracking; Gen3 for people tracking, in particular flight following). This promises to be good enough for as long as you don't go across oceans. We will give it a good workout and give feedback in this forum.

[Hot and Hi]

Spidertracks was still the better solution for tracking because in case of an emergency you don't need to press any buttons, because you might be unable to do so, and the unit due to it's non movement for x minutes deduces there is a problem and sends an emergency message...
Sure, it's a good solution, in particular where global coverage is relevant including the oceans.

However, I don't buy your point of not pressing any buttons. Spidertracks has a "Watch Me" button that you *do* need to press. Yes, once pressed, the Spider headoffice will send an emergency signal, if they (at Spider headoffice) stop receiving movement updates thereafter. It's a clever thought indeed.

This may work, for example, if you lose one engine at 20 000', or a warning light comes on, or if there is a funny electrical smell. OK, you press the button, and then try to ANC. The new emergency drill is WANC (Watchme - Aviate - Navigate - Communicate) :O

But it won't help with CFIT and many other emergencies where there is no time, or hand (think helicopter), or attention to spare, before the impact. Unfortunately, this doesn't replace a crash-activated G-switch and crash resistant casing, which neither Spider nor SPOT have. That's why those trackers work in conjunction with ELT's, and are not (yet) a replacement for a proper ELT.

While trackers are ideal for flight following (in particular if somebody sits back in the office and keeps an eye on you), the ELT will take emergency responders to the exact spot where you are. :D For example, there are places in dense forest where you wouldn't see a wreck even if you passed just 2 m next to it. And you won't be able to spot it from the air neither.

Remember, aircraft can travel long distances in the few minutes between the last (valid) position fix obtained from a tracker and the crash site. There are a few scenarios where even a satellite-based tracker (like SPOT or Spidertracks) won't send any position fixes from the cash site, such as

- Can't receive position fix from GPS satellites and/or upload message to communication satellite due to view of sky covered by trees or debris;
- Unit damaged on impact;
- Unit damaged by post impact fire before the next reporting interval (that would also be a problem for a ELT, however in particular in fix wing a/c, an installation position for the ELT can be chosen that is less likely to be affected by fire).

That's where the benefits of ELT's come in:

- High transmitter power (because it saves its battery power to only transmit in an emergency);
- External aerial;
- Relatively low frequency penetrating solid objects.

And last but not least the "L" in ELT - the Locator - allows emergency responders to zero in on the ELT device.

[RVDT]

However, I don't buy your point of not pressing any buttons.

You may not be so familiar with Spidertracks and by the looks you don't really know how it works.

On failure of the power source and you have not cancelled the Watch it will automatically initiate cascade phone calls, emails, SMS text messages............

And it automatically starts on movement to commence tracking.

Have a read of the operating instructions some time.

An ELT is reactive and relies on the ELT surviving the accident. A broken antenna or 50 mm of water above the antenna will stop it.

Spidertracks is pro-active and at least it will tell someone where you where 2 minutes prior at the most.

I would take the Spidertracks over an ELT thanks if given the choice. It sits in front of me and tells me its working.

In my experience of flying and maintaining helicopters for nearly 30 years units like this are possibly the best thing since sliced bread.

As an an LAME I have recovered numerous aircraft where the ELT has not worked.

Currently I operate in different countries where the SAR is virtually non existent.

It automatically calls people who know what to do about it with far more knowledge and resources and you decide and configure who that is.

You can even set it up to call or message your local SAR services and/or whoever you want.

ELT and GPS Tracking is the best option - someone needs to make one.

PS Spidertracks have just ticked over 5 million flight hours of tracking !!

WRT Spot - not much use to me as the coverage is not global.

[Hot and Hi]

There is lots of talk about the requirement of the GPS receiver to have unobstructed view of the sky, etc., but in my experience in the front seats (or even the rear seats in a Robinson style helicopter) this is not an issue. As mentioned before, anything non solid metal, like plastic, leather or seat cushions don't seem to impair the reception of the GPS signal from the sky.Based on our initial experience with the Globalstar satellite based SPOT Gen3 personal tracker, this cannot be said for the message uplink! And the SPOT Trace (for asset tracking) shouldn't be any different in this regard. If the device is hidden from sight, or if anything covers it, the message won't be received by the satellite. :uhoh:

Flat on top of the dash always seems to be working fine, but any other position, even if exposed and not covered, needs to be thoroughly tested.

So in the end maybe not the solution for covert tracking of the aircraft, as the operator will always be able to notice the tracker, and could disable it if wanted? Probably better to explicitly advise the operator that the aircraft is tracked, it might keep him/her on the straight and narrow...

[SuperF]

regarding ELT's, those flash new 406's that got forced on us about 10-15 years ago, have a very low activation rate in Helicopters in NZ.

they successfully activate in something like 15% of accidents.... i wouldn't count on them, far prefer to rely on the tracking, at least the search will be within a few square kilometers, rather than, he flew away and didn't call after 30 minutes.... That is a huge area that a helicopter could cover.

[Hot and Hi]

Of late, we found the position upload reliable. Up to every 5 minutes with standard data plan, every 2.5 minutes at a premium. You don't pay per individual satellite message, only annual subscription, so you can send as many, or as few, position fixes as you want, the cost won't change. The only limit is the max tracking frequency (of 1 per 5 min, or 1 per 2.5 min as mentioned above).

When I say "reliable", this means that indeed every single one of the tacking messages sent are indeed received by the GlobalStar satellite network, and relayed back to the user (via smartphone app, or password protected webpage(. Not a single missed transmission over the past couple of months! That is better than advertised!

Also, email notifications (e.g., of Check-in OK) are unlimited and free. The only thing you pay for is when sending the same notification by SMS (to any GSM cell phone world-wide). Here the annual subscription includes 200 SMS. This initially sounds like a lot, but if you play around with it, say, notify 5 people by SMS, and send a message before take-off, and one at safe landing, you use up your 200 SMS in just 20 flight legs!

SPOT (Globalstar) won't tell you, or alert you about running out of free SMS. You just get charged at 'out-of-bundle' rates. The website is very user unfriendly, and it is almost impossible to understand how much of your free messages you have used up. SPOT just starts billing your credit card for excess messages, and even this not immediately, maybe only 6 or 8 months late, e.g. at annual renewal. So don't be surprised if you get hit with a Big Bill out of the blue.

Also SPOT's customer service / support desk basically is non-existent. Yes, you can send enquiries, but they will practically never respond. It's a disgrace!

[Hot and Hi]

Spidertracks

On failure of the power source and you have not cancelled the Watch it will automatically initiate cascade phone calls, emails, SMS text messages............

And it automatically starts on movement to commence tracking.This is indeed very cool. It practically takes away the need for a person to attentively watch over your track while mostly nothing is happening. Something that humans are not particularly good at. And the automatic triggering of a Spidertracks alert should be as reliable as, or probably better than, the automatic activation of an ELT upon impact.

I think technically speaking, the server looks for > 10 min of non-communication, and then triggers the alert. This period of non-communication can be indicative of many scenarios, including power failure, but also of a number of accident scenarios where the device is dislodged and/or precluded from successfully transmitting.

A feature maybe that hadn't been advertised that well? I see that recently (in March 2017) an additional support note has been published on Spidertracks Support webpage, explaining quite well the different tracking modes available, and in particular the difference between manual and automated Watch: https://support.spidertracks.com/hc/en-us/sections/200077780-Different-Tracking-Modes

For this to work (the alert based on 10 min period of non-communication) Spidertracks and their platform partner Iridium must be pretty sure that in all generality the Spidertracks transmission is reliably received. In other words, that there shouldn't be any other (e.g., system, weather or terrain related) reasons why a device would 'disappear' for 10 min at a time.

Something the Globalstar (the satellite network behind the SPOT Trace and GEN3 trackers) can't claim. While last year (see my previous post) it seemed OK, currently we again see repeated outages of 5 to 15 min at a time. This makes the device almost unusable for locating a downed aircraft.

SPOT support confirms that they are not aware of any network related problem (and that could be fixed). It could be related to terrain (mountains or valley sides blocking the line of sight). And it could also be related to the lower latitudes that we operate in (the Globalstar network may be optimized for 50 degree North/South latitudes, i.e., North America and Europe).

If these problems persist, then I would say that already for that reason alone SPOT may not suitable for flight following of rotorcraft (not to mention lack of global coverage aside).

[Gordy]

I am plus 1 for spidertracks. I have 21 of them. We have ours set up so that the first alert goes to each pilots cell phone. (We have it set up that if you turn off aircraft power before shutting the unit down, it will generate an SOS signal. If an SOS comes through for the aircraft you just landed, you merely close it by responding to the text and are liable for the first round that night. If no-one closes it, then it goes to tier two SOS.

There is also a "Spider Text" function where you can link a smart phone via bluetooth and text the office through the Iridium, (great for precautionary landings in areas of no cell coverage).

[RVDT]

Gordy,

We have it set up that if you turn off aircraft power before shutting the unit down, it will generate an SOS signal. If an SOS comes through for the aircraft you just landed, you merely close it by responding to the text and are liable for the first round that night. If no-one closes it, then it goes to tier two SOS

That will be the built-in "test" function? :O