James Horner missing presumed dead in his Ex RAF Tucano

[NutLoose]

Judging by the crash site not a lot remains of the aircraft.


RIP your music was inspirational.

[P6 Driver]

James Horner dies aged 61 in Southern California plane crash | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3135483/Oscar-winning-Titanic-composer-James-Horner-presumed-dead-California-plane-crash.html)

[Martin the Martian]

Yes, indeed. One of the finest contemporary film composers around. He will be missed.

[Exascot]

Very sad, a brilliant composer.

[West Coast]

Airplane and musicians

[Hangarshuffle]

West Coast you sick ****..but go on then.
1.Glen Miller (disappeared-Weather/possibly bombed by the RAF ditching their loads).
2.Buddy Holly and the rest of them..The Big Bopper, Ricky Vallance was it? (Snowstorm)
3.John Denver? Think so, cant remember. Or was it John Campbell? One of them.(Spanked in).
4.Lynrd Skynyrnd? Cant even recall what they were called now>?! (Spanked in).
Must be more than that.


5.Stevie Ray Vaughn (Fog)
6.Otis Reading.(Fog)
7.Patsy Cline. (Bad Weather)
8.Ricky Nelson.(Malfunction Heater)


Some Pruners will not have a single clue who these were.

[Herod]

Jim Reeves?

[NutLoose]

Hangarshuffle, Buddy Holly died on the 3rd of February 1959 the day I struggled out into this world..

American Pie one of my favourite songs was released by Don McLean in 1971 which marked his passing.

[Davef68]

- Randy Rhoads (Ozzy Osbourne Guitarist)
- Aaliyah (US R&B singer)

EDIT:

Actually found a list of these!

http://981thehawk.com/music-stars-who-have-died-in-plane-crashes/

[Wander00]

Were there "live" seats in the aircraft? Anyone know

[TBM-Legend]

A fellow aviator...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Pzg7-IUXY

RIP James..

[India Four Two]

TBM-Legend,

Thanks for that link. What a marvellous video.

[Exascot]

I presume a civilian owned 'fighter' can have bang seats. I guess servicing would be a problem though finding someone qualified.

Thank you TBM. How does someone even start to write the music he did. Same goes for the great composers of the past of course. Not modern pop though a monkey could do that, indeed often the case :rolleyes:

[Martin the Martian]

Musicians and cars don't have a great record (no pun intended) either. Isn't that right, Mr. Bolan?

[Tankertrashnav]

hangarshuffle - Because I only became aware of Lynrd Skynrd in recent years (they are still performing) I hadn't heard about the crash which killed 3 of the band's original members. Read about it here - what a shambles!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Convair_CV-300_crash

I thought that theory about Glen Miller being accidentally hit by jettisoned bombs had been pretty well discredited, with icing of some form being much more likely. But then the bleeding obvious is never a favourite with conspiracy theorists!

[John Farley]

Very sad. However as they say every picture tells a story.

The TV news picture of the crash site showed clear evidence of a fire with a very small ground area affected. This suggests it was unlikely to have been a running out of fuel issue and that the ground speed at impact was very low indeed. So a near vertical high speed flight path or low speed spin impact would be suggested. Given no obvious crater from a high speed impact the spin would seem more likely.

My initial thoughts to fit in with the TV picture would be pilot incapacitation leading to loss of control and a spin. But any genuine hard information could change that assesment completely.

[Wander00]

Heck, that's heart-warming on a sad topic - thanks, JF, that was where my musing had got, but I guess the medical examination may finalise things. Great musician - brought pleasure to millions, and music to many weddings!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Is this (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=%3D%22short+s-312+tucano%22&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=USA+-+California&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=&range=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=120&thumbnails=) Horner's mishap aircraft? I haven't been able to confirm which ex-RAF aircraft he owned.

[BigX]

ZF206 re-registered as N206PZ according to a US aviation website, that I've lost the link for. But also the same info here....

http://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/View?Registration=ZF206&DeliveryDate=29/09/1989

[thcrozier]

I know this area pretty well, from the ground. The site appears to be in a dry creek bed about 3 miles up Quatal Cyn road from Hwy 33. The creek descending from Quatal Cyn joins up with the much larger Cuyama Creek about 2 miles or so South of Ventucopa. Both creeks are currently dry, flat, and with sandy bottoms. There is rugged terrain rising from both sides of each, but as long as you stay in the creek beds it's like walking along a sandy beach for miles and miles.

[Just This Once...]

Were there "live" seats in the aircraft? Anyone know

I don't know for sure, but I presume not as there is a picture of the aircraft with a fire extinguisher bolted to the headbox.

[Wander00]

Not seen that pic, but answers the question. Thanks. (Thought process was if there is a problem and a live seat why not use MB's excellent product)

[Just This Once...]

Looking around it seems that other US-registered Tucanos have fire extinguishers on the headbox:

Photos: Short S-312 Tucano T MK1 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Short-S-312-Tucano/2126318/L/&sid=80caeacefa800464e9dc02b3493434f7)

[MSOCS]

Very sad to hear.

Just checked the log book out of pure curiosity - flew my first ever Tucano trip at Linton in ZF206.....

[Just This Once...]

A somewhat poignant image of ZF206:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/5/2/6/0281625.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

I think I'm right in saying the the JPs etc which used to be operated by Delta Jets at Kemble either had their ejector seats replaced or deactivated because of certification difficulties for aircraft on the civil register.

Dont know if this would also apply in the US but I think it fairly likely.

[Background Noise]

I think it is mostly the other way round - applications have to be made to disarm them. There are certainly plenty of ex military aircraft around with live seats. This wording is from a googled application although it may well be out of date legislation:

For the CAA to consider accepting that such systems be disarmed, the aircraft must first be shown to have a landing speed low enough (and with benign handling) that it is reasonable to expect the pilot to be able to make a forced landing in a field.....
...... Disablement of ejection seats on individual aircraft may be accepted provided that it remains possible for the pilot to abandon the aircraft, including the deployment of the parachute.

As for rules in the US I have no idea but there are plenty of pictures around of those Tuacnos, with modified canopies, being flown by pilots in T shirts and lightweight headsets, so I presume they are inert seats.:eek:

[NutLoose]

Looked on here if they are fitted they are live.

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/rules.html

[Background Noise]

That's not what that says. It mentions how they can be disarmed.

Bear in mind it is also dated Sep 2000. Edited to add, that page refers to UK only.

[NutLoose]

Yes but in general I think most are, it came about after I think a JP spun in if memory serves me correctly.

If you want the current blurb, see

https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20632%20Permit-to-Fly%20Ex-Military%20Aircraft.pdf


Ejection seats
5.8 Where ejection seats are an integral part of the aircrew escape system, as specified in the relevant Pilots Notes, Flight or Aircrew Manuals, it is recommended that they be fully serviceable for all flights. Approval should be sought from the CAA (Application and Approvals) at the earliest opportunity if it is intended to operate with inert ejection seats (or other escape systems). It is unlikely that the CAA will allow swept-wing aircraft fitted with ejection seats to be flown unless the equipment is fully operational.
5.9 Ejection seat cartridge lives are typically 2 years installed, within a 6 year shelf life. To be fully serviceable the cartridges installed must be within their appropriate lives.

[donzoh1]

I was a controller at CMA ATCT and observed that the canopy on the accident aircraft had the breakout lines sometimes associated with ejection. James flew a cub, a hughes 500, a marchetti f260, and the tucano, although in the tucano, frequently with an instructor aboard. He also came up to the tower sometimes and was fun to visit with. I dont recall for sure whether he ever said anything about the seats.

[Mike51]

You're quoting CAA regulation NutLoose, of no relevance at all when it comes to operating Tucanos on the FAA Experimental register in the US

[NutLoose]

Try reading the thread, not simply the last post, we were talking about over here as well. :}

[Background Noise]

I was going to say something flippant like, call it experimental and you can do what you like, but I didn't want to start any us and them banter or drift this even more off topic. :E

Looking at some of these pics (not necessarily the same as the mishap aircraft) it looks like they have dummy seats. I was wondering whether they even had chutes but this looks like a chute in the rear cockpit(?):

http://i62.tinypic.com/if4cvc.jpg

More pics here: (and some gucci kit up front too)

Warbird Depot - Trainers > Lee Leet's Short Tucano T Mk1 (http://www.warbirddepot.com/aircraft_trainers_tucano-leet.asp)

[LOMCEVAK]

Unless the canopy has been modified from the RAF standard, it is non-jettisonable. Also, the miniature detonating cord (MDC) is not cleared for manual activation in flight because there is a high risk of injury to the crew (although, obviously, it is fine for ejection because the seat has travelled upwards before the canopy pieces return towards the cockpit). Because of this, in UK service it is flown with the MDC handle safety pin fitted. In the picture, the seat head boxes shown are not representative of the ones fitted to the ejection seats used in the UK in-service aircraft. Therefore, I am curious to know how a manual bail-out from this aircraft could be effected.

[ABL262]

As I understand, the US company which purchased c.20 Tucanos from the MOD in 2007 for sale under the Experimental Category in the US offers them with the option of live seats or de-activated seats. In the latter case the detonation cord remains live as, you're right, the canopy cannot be jettisoned. The theory is that if you need to abandon the aircraft, you detonate the canopy and bailout conventionally.


However, the front cockpit canopy has a "splitter" det cord rather than a full "shatter" det cord. In the case of live seats, the front seat horns on the head box crack open the canopy during the ejection sequence once it has been initially split by the det cord. I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it would be force your way through the front cockpit canopy without the aid of a live seat. Furthermore, the prospect of det cord going off within inches of your face without the proper safety equipment does not bear contemplating. Hands up who had their Mk3/4 helmets modified in service to prevent det cord "splatter" burning your face in the event of an ejection?


The majority of Tucanos sold in the US have de-activated seats. However, you will note that you can get a very nice new paint job, chrome-plated turbine exhausts and a Garmin flat panel display if you so choose. Go figure as our US cousins would say.

[NutLoose]

Same the world over in aviation, many lost their lives in Sea Furies having removed the anti roll bars from the cockpits on the grounds of aesthetics.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I had this problem 20 years ago with the bang seats in the JP5A. The local FAA (Arizona) would have preferred the bang seats deactivated. I had to tell them that the Aircrew Manual's "Manual bailout may require considerable physical effort" had been explained on BFTS Groundschool as "You're gonna die".
Fortunately there was an ex-Brit in the office who could explain British understatement.
In the end, I refused to fly it without live bang seats, and permission to do so changed 7 times in 6 months - no, yes, no, yes, no, YES, NO! I got 5 flights in during the yes bits, then gave up.
The thinking at the time (with some evidence) was that non ex-mil pilots were banging out with the slightest excuse, leaving the jets to hit people's houses.
In general, the FAA were perfectly happy to let ex-mil pilots do what they like, but very nervous about civvies, and couldn't legally put this distinction in the permits. Thus with this JP5A permission was removed about the point the owner would be allowed to start flying it on his own.

[West Coast]

Fortunately there was an ex-Brit in the office who could explain British understatement.

SDL office?