RAF List 2002/ 2003

[Keg]

G'day All,

I'm trying to track down the bona fides of person who claims to be an ex RAF officer. According to his profile he left the RAF in 2003.

Obviously it's a sensitive issues and I don't want to cast aspersions publicly if his bona fides check out but a copy of the RAF list from (say) 2002 and/or 2003 would be very helpful.

I'm not ex military but spent 20 years in the Australian Air Training Corps/ Australian Air Force Cadets until 2010. You can view my posting history mostly in Dunnunda and Godzone forums.

Thanks for any assistance anyone can provide.

Keg

[Pontius Navigator]

Keg, a particular year might be hit and miss. Try searching the London Gazette. That should have all you need.

[Keg]

Thanks Pontius. That came up a blank for the name I was after- which could be a clue or could be my finger trouble and not knowing how to search it properly.

Hence my mind turned to the RAF list.

I appreciate the input though. :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Keg

If you type the following in google before what you want to search it will find who you're looking for in the London Gazette:

site:thegazette.co.uk plus the name and initials of who you are searching for

If you get nothing then suspect bu11sh!t...I just searched for a few people I know and I had a 100% return from 7 searches.

LJ

[Wensleydale]

I also find that his service number will help in the search in the Gazette - he should remember it if you ask him!

[Rude C'man]

if you do out the maybe walt put it on the Walter Mitty hunters club on FB , name and shame

[EngAl]

Keg
I've got a copy of the 95 RAF list, if he left in 2003 he should be in there.
If you PM me his name, initials and branch plus anything else you have, I'll have a look.
EA

[Old-Duffer]

Keg,

How long does your man claim to have been in the RAF? If he was on a regular commission, then his name would be in the Retired List.

Remember, an Air Force List for - say - 2003, might be closed for entries on 1 March of that year. You would do well to look at a list for a year on which he claims to have been present all year!

O-D

[teeteringhead]

I've got fairly random collection of Air Force Lists in the office - so random I can't recall exactly which ones I've got!

I'll check in the morning and let you know. :ok:

[Stuff]

site:thegazette.co.uk plus the name and initials of who you are searching for



Worked perfectly for various promotions but my initial commission (as a mighty Acting Pilot Officer) was listed with my full first and middle name and didn't seem to want to show up unless I searched for my service number.

Searching for my first and last names told me I died in 1956 :(

[Melchett01]

As Wensleydale said, service number is the answer to your question. It's unique and you don't ever forget it. I've heard tales of individuals with dementia who can't remember what they did yesterday but still remember their service number, so personal is it and so deeply engrained in their memory.

Ask the individual for their service number. If they can't remember it, I'd start to wonder. And when they give you the number Google it - you may need to try a couple of times depending whether google is case sensitive. Either way because it is so unique it will take you direct to their entry in the London Gazette (effectively the official Government newspaper / publication) where every commission and promotion in every branch is announced. I can track every one of my promotions just by doing that. So can they if they are genuine.

[Pontius Navigator]

There is a catch. Modern Service numbers have a letter suffix or prefix, originally there was no check letter. My appointment in the reserves is shown but not my retirements.

There was a good explanation in pprune a few years back on how to calculate that letter.

Service numbers are also blocked so you can tell what type of engagement or commission the individual had.

[Melchett01]

Good point PN.

When I was on the UAS - effectively an Airman - the letter was a prefix. When I commissioned I kept the same number and the letter became a suffix.

I joined in the late 90s and as a former UAS student had a service number starting 2. I can't remember which way round it is, but graduate direct entrants and direct entrants straight from school at that time had numbers beginning with 8 or 5. FWIW, I think females' service numbers started with a 3.

So you should probably be looking for a service number starting 2, 5 or 8 and with a letter after the 7 numbers.

[Guernsey Girl II]

Since the start of JPA, letters, suffix or prefix have gone for new recruits. Don't forget how to spell Joint, A R M Y.

[Wander00]

Ours started 608xxx, RAF Technical College was 609xxx. My check digit was "F"

[teeteringhead]

Keg

as promised last night

The Air Force Lists I have are:

Autumn '72 (they used to publish 2 per year!)
Autumn '76
Autumn '78

of the one-per-years I have:

1984
1987
2003 (last one with dates of birth of Gp Capts and above!!)
2006
2007 (last one published I think)

And also Retired Lists for:

1974 and
2006 (last one)

It any of this looks like being helpful, feel free to PM me with more details.

Teeters

[Brian 48nav]

There is a quirk, or inconsistency to my mind,certainly in my 1982 copy. Those of us who exercised our 8 or 12 year options to leave the service and transfer to the reserve, normally for a 4 year period I recall, are not included.

Yet, those officers who resigned their commission after the same 8 or 12 year period are included. In my copy I noticed 2 or 3 names I recognised who had left after presumably failing their OCU or first squadron check.

[Roadster280]

Since the start of JPA, letters, suffix or prefix have gone for new recruits. Don't forget how to spell Joint, A R M Y.

Salt n vinegar with those chips?

Army numbers changed with the advent of JPA too.

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadsters, GG2 is merely reminding that Joint is GREEN.

Daughter, a sqn ldr, used to get snotty emails and phone calls from the Adjutant (captain) about attendance at Army functions when she was in a Joint unit and no acknowledgement of light blue commitments.

As PMC she got her own back when running a dining-in night with RAF protocols. Yup, the Army was no where as sophisticated with no idea of passing the port.

[Keg]

Thanks everyone for your assistance thus far. Some very good info here.

It appears my bloke actually IS on the list but not in the capacity I'd been lead to believe. Certainly his profile on linked in, and personal stories leads you down a different path to what his category on the RAF list would lead you to believe.

Some follow up questions if I may.

Was it possible to be an RAF airman whilst an RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training Branch) officer? (I think some people can see where this is leading).
Would time as a RAF VR(T) role count towards a Long Service and Good Conduct medal?
Is it possible to have two different service numbers? IE If you were in for a bit, left for a few years and then came back? Or be given your RAF airman one initially?
Is there any way to check RAF airman records?
Is there any way to check eligibility of Gulf War I medals?
Were RAF VR(T) officers awarded the Diamond and Golden Jubilee coronation medals? Did you have to be a member at the date of attestation or could you still get it if you had done the five years but left a few years earlier?
How far through the 'emergency services' did the issue of the medals extend?

Thanks again everyone for your assistance.

[wub]

When I was commissioned in the RAFVR(T) after some seven years out of uniform, I was given my original (airman's) service number but the letter prefix was changed to a suffix.

[Wander00]

I was a VR(T) Officer for 2 years after being invalided in 1969; I retained my "608" number - I rejoined as a regular in a different Branch inc1980, again retaining my 608 number. In between I was in the RCT(V), but had a different "Army" number.

[Pontius Navigator]

Was it possible to be an RAF airman whilst an RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training Branch) officer? No. A VR(T) officer still has been through OASC and is commissioned with commensurate powers conferred by the Queen.

Would time as a RAF VR(T) role count towards a Long Service and Good Conduct medal? No but I don't know if non commissioned service in VR(T) might count.

Is it possible to have two different service numbers? Probably not.

IE If you were in for a bit, left for a few years and then came back? Or be given your RAF airman one initially? Definitely no change of number in this case.

Is there any way to check RAF airman records? For you, no.

Were RAF VR(T) officers awarded the Diamond and Golden Jubilee coronation medals? Yes

Did you have to be a member at the date of attestation or could you still get it if you had done the five years but left a few years earlier? You had to be eligible - 5 years service AND still serving. A break in Service did not matter as long as you had both 5 years and still serving.

How far through the 'emergency services' did the issue of the medals extend? Police and Fire certainly, civil service, including RAFR and other Service equivalents did not qualify. Google is your friend.

Similarly you can find t h e rules for the South Atlantic medal but not individual entitlement.

Thanks again everyone for your assistance.[/QUOTE]

[O-P]

How strange!


I just googled my service# at it came up with someones mobile phone# in Nebraska, or an exhaust repair shop in Dehli!!! Ho hum, still get my pension.

[ExAscoteer]

Is it possible to have two different service numbers? Probably not.



It's very possible. I was Commissioned as an Acting Pilot Officer (University Cadet) and received the commensurate 520xxxx number. Note originally there was no letter suffix, this came in some 6 months later and (I was told) was something to do with the pay computer at Innsworth.

I left the regular Service after 20+ years. After a few years in Civy Street I became a CI at my local ATC unit and given a completely spurious number starting with 00.

Having been recommissioned into the RAFVR(T) as a Flying Officer I was told I could not keep my original Service Number, but had to put up with the number I had been given as a CI.

All very strange...

[ian16th]

Is it possible to have two different service numbers? Probably not.

Boy Entrants that transfered to Aircraft Apprentices were given new Apprentice type service numbers.

[teeteringhead]

There are no non-commissioned members of the VR(T). The SNCOs/WOs(ATC) as they are termed, are not subject to military law, as VR(T) are. So the question of service counting towards LS&GCM doesn't apply. And - at the moment - officers don't qualify for the "long gong".

VR(T) and the ATC adult snecs qualify for the CFM (Cadet Forces Medal) which is their equivalent of a Long Service. They qualify IIRC after 12 years, with bars after each succeeding 6.

And yet..... they also got QGJMs and QDJMs, which some bits of the full-time RAFR didn't!

As to numbers, an old mate of mine reversed the process a long while ago - he was VR(T) before joining as a regular. He kept his (slightly odd) VR(T) number, which led to the same conversation with the scribblies every time he got to a new Station:

"Excuse me Sir, there seems to have been a typo in your Service Number!"

But I think that has now changed.

[Lima Juliet]

As I understand it RAF VR(T) officers have very little training to be an officer. There is selection at the Officers' & Aircrew Selection Centre. But the training is initially 5 days at RAF Cranwell (that includes arrival and a graduation) and then if you are selected as an OC then a further 5 days, as far as was explained by the RAF Reserves Cell when I called them.

That is why I was not allowed to employ a RAF VR(T) officer under Full Time Reserve Service - they had not done proper phase 1 and phase 2 training. The minimum employment standard was a RAuxAF Officer that had done much more phase 1 and 2 training.

LJ

[tmmorris]

As I understand it RAF VR(T) officers have very little training to be an officer. There is selection at the Officers' & Aircrew Selection Centre. But the training is initially 5 days at RAF Cranwell (that includes arrival and a graduation) and then if you are selected as an OC then a further 5 days, as far as was explained by the RAF Reserves Cell when I called them.

That is why I was not allowed to employ a RAF VR(T) officer under Full Time Reserve Service - they had not done proper phase 1 and phase 2 training. The minimum employment standard was a RAuxAF Officer that had done much more phase 1 and 2 training.

LJ

All correct, and recently the RAF (and oddly the RN) has re-employed a number of RAFVR(T) officers who were working full time as civilians instead. The Army was already doing similar e.g. SO2 cadets in our area is an ACF officer but doesn't use her rank in her day job as it's not relevant.

[Herod]

Regarding service numbers, I retired as a Flt Lt after 12 years regular service. Some 8 years later I volunteered to fly Chipmunks with an AEF and was commissioned as a Fg Off VR(T). I still kept the same service number.

[Pontius Navigator]

ExAscot, when I received my second commission I was rung by the officer responsible for reserves to find my service number to ensure it was the same and correct.

[huge72]

I retired in 2010 after 38years with the same service number the only change being that the prefix letter was moved from first to last on commissioning. After a year doing nothing in blue I joined the VR(T) as they were starting a new unit where I live, could I have my previous number? Not a chance!!! JPA strikes again, since its introduction when you leave your number is wiped clean from the computer and you have to have a brand new one. Its all to difficult apparently!!!!!:(:( PS It goes along with no valedictory or letter from their lordships to thank you for your loyal service, just a computer print out of your service record (not complete or totally correct) and a little badge to say I'm a veteran. Very sad but not totally unexpected.:mad:

[SeniorMoment]

Keg, Check your PM's

[Wander00]

I kept my valedictory letter, on the grounds it was probably the only time our AOC knew what I actually did, particularly the spread of my secondary duties. I have visions of him grinding his teeth as he signed!

[Tocsin]

PN,

I have come across two RAuxAF bods with a double life:

(a) VR(T) officer and auggie airman (was around GW2, not 1, and we also had female Gunners...)

(b) CCF officer and auggie officer (recently, but details omitted to try and maintain PERSEC).

[Haraka]

I kept my valedictory letter,

"Valedictory letter - LUXURY!"

I was seconded when I PVR'd. My French Air Force General Boss brought in to me some paperwork, forwarded by the P.S.O of an Air Marshal whom I'd never met ( nor ever had any dealings with for that matter).
Basically it was, of course, a standard formatted valedictory letter with gaps for addition by my " commanding officer" of a few comments in order to give the illusion that the Airship actually knew of my actual location and appointment.
My General was very embarrassed as to this state of affairs regarding the RAF's apparent insularity toward one of its own officers and after briefly discussing whether we should together write a curt response, we decided on the appropriate action under the circumstances ;

and threw it in the bin.

P.S.I might add that I was working within the Western European Union and that for over a year the R.A.F. insisted in forwarding many personal and relevant communications regarding my position to the care of the Air Attaché in Ecuador.

[Danny42C]

Most of us have come across "Walter Mittys" in our time. Few of us have a library of RAF Lists, which are both bulky (or at least, used to be !) and expensive.

Would it not be a good idea if HM Stationery Office had an "Enquiries" number/email, to confirm/deny suspicious names ? :confused:

Maybe there is already, in which case would some kind soul point me to it ?

Danny42C

[Melchett01]

Danny42C,

I would be very surprised if there was such a common sense system. The Data Protection Act tends to get in the way and stops things like that these days. The Army had an electronic Army List a few years back but had to scrap it on data protection grounds; I'm assuming it's the same case these days.

Don't throw out your hardcopy Air Force Lists just yet!

[Wander00]

Why did they not just get people to sign an exclusion clause so the thing could be printed or held electronically. DP has got a bit ridiculous - in my youth the local library held Air Force, Army and Navy lists

[Yellow Sun]

Why did they not just get people to sign an exclusion clause so the thing could be printed or held electronically. DP has got a bit ridiculous - in my youth the local library held Air Force, Army and Navy lists

My local public library still has the last published RAF List of Retired Officers on its shelves.

But it is Oakham after all!

YS

[JV24601]

Hi sorry to be really thick, but how can i validate a service number? Someone claims to be highly decorated, and i am querying whether or not he is a Walt! My gut tells me yes, but i cant find any sign of them on the internet.
TIA

[Pontius Navigator]

Hi sorry to be really thick, but how can i validate a service number? Someone claims to be highly decorated, and i am querying whether or not he is a Walt! My gut tells me yes, but i cant find any sign of them on the internet.
TIA
With difficulty. Once you have it is easy but getting it is the problem.

"I hear that a Serviceman never forgets his Service Number"

​​​True

"Go o n then, what's yours?"

That ploy might work.

​​​​​​Highly decorated also implies things AFC, DFC, these will be Gazetted too.

[JV24601]

Doesn’t appear anywhere on the internet, claims to have conspicuous Gallantry cross, Air Force cross and many many more, says that the reason they aren’t in the paper is coz they Worked in intelligence. I already have the service number. Not sure if I can post it on here, joe public’s eyes watchin.


QUOTE=JV24601;10184530]Hi sorry to be really thick, but how can i validate a service number? Someone claims to be highly decorated, and i am querying whether or not he is a Walt! My gut tells me yes, but i cant find any sign of them on the internet.
TIA[/QUOTE]

[MPN11]

JV24601 ... i have hard-copies of AFL 87, 88, 89, 90 and 95, and Ret List 96. PM me with meaningful information to start a paper search, if you wish.


I have Walt-hunted in the past on AARSE, involving the [in]famous Jim Shortt.
https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Baron_of_Castleshort

[Chris Kebab]

..I suspect the number of people with a CGC and an AFC could be counted on one hand - if any indeed exist. What does he claim to have flown?

[MPN11]

AFC for working in Int ... interesting! :)
Shoukd be trackable by that route, “security” not withstanding.

However, many things are possible, and without being able to ding the individual it’s just hypothesis and rumour.

[Danny42C]

Is it possible to have two different service numbers? Probably not.
In WWII I was 1132877 as an airman.; 156066 as an officer (both in RAFVR)..

Went out in 1946, 1948 commissioned in RAFVR as a Flying Officer, kept my 156066. Came back in on a SSC in RAF in 1949, kept 156066, also when got a (laughingly named) "Limited (ie Nil !) Career Permanent Commission" in 1955.

Counting retired service, now a Flt Lt with 68 years seniority. Anybody beat that ?

("He started at the bottom - and liked it there").

[Pontius Navigator]

JV, posting his Service Number would certainly Out him. Post the first 4 numbers as this won't identify him but definitely identify his antecedents. In my time 608n was Cranwell whereas direct entry aircrew were 423n and so on. The set either does not exist or someone will identify the set.

[Tankertrashnav]

Funny how people who "worked in intelligence" are always so keen to tell people about the fact! I'd bet a quid to a squashed sausage that your CGC, AFC man is a Walt. The thing about these people is they cant resist overdoing it, loading on the medals until the combination/total becomes totally incredible

[Lima Juliet]

Funny how people who "worked in intelligence" are always so keen to tell people about the fact! I'd bet a quid to a squashed sausage that your CGC, AFC man is a Walt. The thing about these people is they cant resist overdoing it, loading on the medals until the combination/total becomes totally incredible

I agree. The other way of getting some info is through the London Gazette - use the following words on Google “site:thegazette.co.uk” then follow with their name(s) and “Intelligence Branch”. Given their age you could find their Service number quite quickly?

Good hunting - I frickin’ hate Walter Mittys. So does SBS Ant...:eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d8ri-P3ECw

[FantomZorbin]

Keg
If you PM me with the person's number I can validate the check letter that should be added to it, if that's any help.
FZ

[Pontius Navigator]

In the mid sixties a letter was added to RAF service numbers as an entry check..All numbers were 7 digits long. To find the check letter:
deleted
Google isn't always your friend.

[Lima Juliet]

Doesn’t work for me as it is 3 out - maybe I’m a fake after all these years!!!

Edit - RTFQ, if I take out India and Oscar and A = zero, spot on! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Doesn’t work for me as it is 3 out - maybe I’m a fake after all these years!!!

Edit - RTFQ, if I take out India and Oscar and A = zero, spot on! :ok:
LJ, me too,

Times the first number by 8
the second number by 17
the third number by 4
the fourth number by 16
the fifth by 2
the sixth by 13
and the last number by 1

Add the total of the answers (Answer A)

divide total by 23

reduce the number to the nearest integer (ie, 13.26087 would be 13)

multiple that number by 23 (not 13 as was orginally written) (Answer B)

take away Answer B from Answer A above

if your answer is

0 = A
1 = B
2 = C
3 = D
4 = E
5 = F
6 = G
7 = H
8 = J
9 = K
10 = L
11 = M
12 = N
13 = P
14 = Q
15 = R
16 = S
17 = T
18 = U
19 = V
20 = W
21 = X
22 = Y
23 = X

[MPN11]

I’m just content to have been a ‘B’, whilst she was just an ‘L’ :)

What a fantastically convoluted route to the answer, which I shall NOT bother to explore!!

[Bob Viking]

To date only 61 CGCs have been awarded. The wiki page has all 61 listed. If your friend is not on the list then he’s bullsh1tting.

Simples.

BV

[MPN11]

I note no Royal Air Force awards of the CGC, other than Sqn Ldr MacFarlane DFC, so that would seem ‘case closed’ ... possibly!

[Bob Viking]

Look again. Op Barras.

BV

[MPN11]

We cross-posted with my amendment ... sorry, slow on pages/tabs on iPad and no reading glasses handy!!

He is the only possible candidate, and the DFC/AFC doesn’t compute with our potential Walt.

[Bob Viking]

It certainly makes for a very short list.

If it’s true maybe it’s time to name and shame.

I mean really. If you’re going to invent an award you should at least do enough research or have enough knowledge to know that you’re likely to get rumbled.

CGC for crying out loud?! Why not go the whole hog and claim to have a VC?! What a massive 🛎 end.

BV

[MPN11]

JV24601 is sadly absent. I await his/her next input with interest.

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe he meant CDM not CGC.