B206 Drivers, read and learn...

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

95 % of my B206B-3 flying is in the left seat, saved a hot start a few weeks ago, when the student started by watching the TQ gauge instead of the N1 gauge on about his 10th start..., so when I saw 15% N1 come up I prompted him to open the throttle to gnd idle. He did, but still not seeing no "N1" indication, he then decided to take his finger off the start button as she lit up, I had my forefinger and middle finger ready and saved the TOT from runnaway.

A few weeks later I'm sitting flying RH seat, so now again using fore finger, but now lightly on the idle gate button, middle finger on the start...why would I have thought this a problem:}! So at 15% I open the throttle, then problem, gate button does not pop up, so as I try close the throttle to idle against the gate, it goes through and she shuts down, I think that odd, couldn't have opened it enough, go again, shuts down again, in that instant, realise what has happened and shut down aborting the start, by closing throttle venting to 15%. At this stage she had only just lit up, not higher than about 400 deg.
So what do I do, practice the idle gate button and as it has been known to be sticky on this aircraft, get it working. This must have got some residual fuel ino the engine. TOT was way down at about 100 deg, so decided to start, again starter button on to 15%, open throttle, good, gate button now working, but... It went all pear shaped. As she lit up and I saw the rate the TOT needl was moving around the gauge, I knew I was in trouble, desperately pressed the idle gate button shut off the trottle but in doing so, momentarily and fatally released the starter button under my middle finger, my reversed forefinger and middle finger allowing muscle memory to take over...927-1066 deg for 2 seconds...cooked. Could not believe it and how angry and bad I felt. Still waiting to hear the final cost. Needless to say, expect no Christmas card from the boss this year...
Should have vented once more and waited 10 minutes. Should have used what I do now in the RH seat, right hand thumb on starter button, Left hand operating throttle and idle gate button.....When I exercised the miserable idle gate button she must have been slowly turning to get some residual fuel into the engine. As far as I know even with booster pumps on, just opening the throttle should not get fuel into the engine unless the engine fuel pump is turning somehow before start.

Why in all these years has that B206B-3 silly spring loaded start button not been replaced with a guarded switch, that you can flick on with your thumb and know that the starter will run no matter what? All you need is one of the spare amber caution lights to be plumbed into the starter circuit to come on at selecting start showing you you have a live starter motor? Probably because Rolls Royce say, what, and loose us a guranteed 1/2 million odd dollars a year in world wide hot starts...:ugh: Yeah thanks a lot.

[cattletruck]

Why in all these years has that B206B-3 silly spring loaded start button not been replaced with a guarded switch,

Yep, exactly my very first comment after my very first start of a B206.

The remedy is once committed your finger just has to sit on that button until you figure out what the issue is if any, otherwise only let go after reaching the desired N1.

[RVDT]

Simple fix - push and hold BOTH in regardless of which side you sit.

You should never roll to the IDLE detent as they all light before then anyway.

If they don't the rigging is wrong.

Not surprised you f#$ked up.

[Camp Freddie]

I been hearing stories like this for years and always felt the system needed to be a bit more forgiving and less stressful - for a low timer on type anyway

What a difference from the R66 which is so easy because the starter is latched as long as the igniter is enabled and it drops automatically at 58%

Easier than driving a tram !!

[Vertical Freedom]

Urrrr just 3,800 hrs turned over in the trusty ole (Jet)Box, over 5,000 starts.....,,,,haven't bungled, errrr I mean stumbled over that problem (yet) :(

What's the problem again??? :mad:

Happy Happy

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

RVDT, not sure what start you are talking about..... Sure isn't like any B-3/B-1 I've flown, in my 1500 odd hours on them? You really think I don't know to keep the starter going? Try to at least read the post properly before a reply.

[Sir HC]

Whoever taught you the one handed technique needs a kick in the bum.

I'm sure you realise this now but essentially, Right thumb hits the starter and doesn't release it until it's self sustaining or fuel is cut off. Left hand looks after throttle and detent button.

We shouldn't expect manufacturers to design aircraft for the lowest common denominator.

[Ascend Charlie]

RVDT said:
You should never roll to the IDLE detent as they all light before then anyway.


With a Bendix you should never try to modulate the start. In fact you can roll the throttle up to full open while it is starting, as long as it is back against the idle stop before the N1 reaches 58%, at which stage the FCU has done its job of starting the engine and bringing it to idle. It then has a look around to see where the throttle setting is, and either stays at idle, or accelerates accordingly.

The 2-finger technique deserves one finger, the middle one. Always used the right thumb on starter and left hand for throttle and detent release, never ever ever had a problem in 7000+ B206 hrs, Bendix and Chandler-Evans (CECO)

[RVDT]

Should have used what I do now in the RH seat, right hand thumb on starter button, Left hand operating throttle and idle gate button.....

Always used the right thumb on starter and left hand for throttle and detent release, never ever ever had a problem

Nope and nope.

Hold starter button down and idle release pressed together using the same hand. Turn throttle to adjust noise and temperature as required. When all good release.

Works on B206 and H500.

PAAA - take a look at my profile and you may review your statement and realise something. Only a measly 2000 on 206 myself so .........................what would I know?

[Camp Freddie]

As RVDT says, in my humble opinion

Forefinger right hand - idle release
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle

Simples, Or whatever works for you !

As long as you are are clear what you are going to do should it all go horribly wrong I don't really think it matters.

[John Eacott]

It never occurred to me that anyone would try to carry out two button pressing actions with the same hand: a recipe for trouble IMO, unless you're an accomplished piano player :p

I'm with AC here in that the right thumb is for the start button and the left thumb for the idle release: much safer :ok: And don't forget to roll onto the release once you've cracked the throttle so that it will close without restriction when it suddenly catches you with an accelerated start.......



Since there seems to be a ww exercise going on, something over 5,000hrs of playing it this way. But I stuffed up when transposing to the EC120, and I still can't work out why?!!

[Camp Freddie]

http://youtu.be/EbzVPCvgmxc

EbzVPCvgmxc


Just for a lottery I googled how to start a jet ranger and took the first result from the list and he does it.

Right forefinger - start button
Right thumb - idle release
Left hand - turn throttle

Clearly there are multiple ways to skin a cat and all have some value.

[Bellrider]

@ to Jazzpilot in the video:
Turning the landing light off during engine run up, gives you some more n1😜

[helonorth]

Sounds like your are using the wrong digits as this seems like a pretty awkward way to start a 206. I use only my thumbs.

[whoknows idont]

Me too. I was taught that way and I think it makes a lot of sense. Right hand starter, left hand throttle. No way of mixing things up.

One would think it was designed like that, the idle stop is just perfectly placed for the LH thumb... :ok:

[Nubian]

Forefinger right hand - idle release
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle


The way I was taught by a former Bell test pilot, when I started on the 206.
However, flying an old PHI 206, the starter button was relocated onto the cyclic and therefore the left thumb would have to do the idle-release.

Turn throttle to adjust noise and temperature as required. When all good release. Will only work on a modulated start (CECO only), which I have never had in a 206 B, as they have all been fitted with the Bendix fuel-control, and therefore automatic start. Flew a L1 which had a CECO fuel control and set up for modulation, and then your statement is correct.


Rolls Royce 250-C20 Operation & Maintenance Manual (72-00-00 pg. 62)

The 250–C20 Series engines each have two qualified control systems; they are:

(1) CECO.
The MC–40 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20J) control system manufactured by the Chandler Evans Control Systems Division of Coltec Industries.

(2) Bendix.
The DP–N1 (250–C20) or DP–N2 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20F, –C20J), (control)/AL–AA1 (governor) control system manufactured by the Bendix Engine Controls Division of Allied Signal.

C. Starting Modes.
Starting procedures are given for an automatic start mode (CECO or Bendix system) and for a modulated start mode (CECO system only).

Automatic Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced directly to the IDLE detent when desired N1 cranking speed is reached.

Modulated Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced toward the IDLE detent in increments as required to increase TOT and N1 speed at a steady rate that remains within specified limits.
Now, the chance to cook the engine is also greatest with the Bendix if you have a halfdodgy battery or having to start in tailwind etc.

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

Well some interesting replies, and interestingly a lot of variables with technique. From the LH Seat, I'm happy with forefinger (starter) and middle on idle button, ready to go whilst student starting, as I described in my opening post, have saved a hot start with a student that way. But in the RH Seat, I'm definately now in the right hand thumb (starter) and left hand opening throttle and thumb on idle button camp, I think that is pretty bullet proof. It is a bit of a pain as using both hands to start, you have to clamp the cyclic with your legs, but small price to pay. Due most friction systems I've encountered being a bit worn when tightening to stabilise cyclic position.

But goes back to my point of why that silly spring loaded tiny start button, has not been replaced by a guarded switch, I don't know. With a guarded starter on switch, you could quite safely start with one hand, no problem. flick guarded switch to start, starter running, slide hand back onto throttle to open and hold thumb over idle button to shut down if TOT runs away, starter will be running no matter what. If start normal, slide hand forward and flick off starter switch at 60% N1...simple I think. I tell you if I owned a B206, I'd certainly be very keen on doing that mod.:8

[Ascend Charlie]

That switch is already on the B212 and 412 series, should be an easy thing to do. But remember to include the "STARTER ON" caution light..... been caught in a 412 during a rush start, wondered for 5 seconds why the Gen wouldn't come on line...

[RVDT]

Lets examine a few things here -

FWIW I have maintained A250 models since about 1978.

In simple terms ask yourself why the engine gets cooked in the first place.

The biggest problem is the detent. Shutting off the fuel is the biggy.

The procedure I quoted is followed by Bell as alluded to and removes all the myth and BS and also the reasons it gets cooked.

Engage starter and remove detent - keep it that way until start is successful or abort is successful.

Move throttle to light off point, watch what happens to TEMP. This will be the coolest start you will get regardless of model.

Possibly universal across all 250 powered helicopters.

All you have to do is change the fuel flow as appropriate. In Bendix 18's, 20's and 20B's it is ON or OFF. On 30's you can modulate the flow and god forbid if there are any CECO equipped engines or 28's (boat anchors) still left.

Flew a L1 which had a CECO fuel control and set up for modulation
L1 would never have had a CECO as it is/was fitted with a 28 engine.

Sure isn't like any B-3/B-1 I've flown I assume you were in the AUS MIL if you flew a B-1? Kiowa? CECO?

Most pilots go through life experiencing mostly benign starts and then one day.................................

Engineers are the ones that see the unsuccessful start results and have come up with procedures to avoid it.

They also have to troubleshoot the problems.

If you roll past the detent and let it engage you better be quicker than most to catch a "wet" start.

In PAAA's case this what is likely to have happened. Also be interesting to see the state of the burner drain check valve.

How many of you know how to check your IDLE speed setting and can do a slam decel check to see that your engine will not do a LEAN flame out?

I have seen a H500 spit 8 foot flames out the tailpipe on a start due to an internal OIL leak - go figure.

[Paul Cantrell]

What a difference from the R66 which is so easy because the starter is latched as long as the igniter is enabled and it drops automatically at 58%

Easier than driving a tram !!

I'll second this... Been flying B206B3/L3 since early 90s and then R66's in just the last couple years. At first I was pretty critical that Robinson hadn't fitted a FADEC or at least an automatic starter like the Intellistart, but I have to say that simply latching the start button as they do reduces the stress and chance of a mistake by 99%.

[timprice]

Never knew why Bell did not put a switch rather than a button, could have saved a lot of hot starts:)

[garly1]

I have only just moved onto the 206 and I was taught the fore finger and middle with the right hand by an adement instructor. After reading this thread I tried the right thumb on starter and left hand/thumb on the throttle and release button. I personally found it a lot more comfortable and after doing a few practice starts I feel like I would be much more comfortable catching a hot start this way. Thanks for an informative thread. Each there own I guess.

[Old Age Pilot]

First Finger - Idle detent
Middle Finger - Starter
Left hand - Throttle

Is exactly how I was taught.

I can't see the logic in using your left thumb for both the detent button AND use the same hand to twist the throttle, as some have suggested. An incredibly awkward and disjointed way of going about it. In my opinion, you need to have full control of the throttle, which by logic, you don't if you're trying to maintain your thumb in one position while moving the rest of your hand about. Seems like a recipe to slip off of something inadvertently to me.

I always felt that with two fingers on the buttons, you're in a safe place with that component. Your main concentration should be on the turning of the throttle as you're more likely to #%*! this part up!

So long as you keep motoring that starter throughout until you get to that magic 58% whilst keeping a check on the TOT with the throttle (CECO & Bendix appropriately) there's no problem.

Whatever works best physically for each Pilot I guess.

[Ascend Charlie]

In my opinion, you need to have full control of the throttle,

Not for a Bendix. Throttle is either OFF until ~15%N1, then it is snapped to IDLE. You could take it to full open if you wanted to, but ensure it is back at IDLE before N1 gets to 58%.
If the start is going hot, thumb is over the detent release, so it pushes it in, hand rolls throttle fully OFF. No control needed, just a snap left to open, a snap right to shut off.

I know that my right hand would take years to develop the muscle memory to operate the 2-finger technique, my natural sense is to lift the index finger off if my middle finger goes down. That would be really sad.

The Oz Army was pushed into this technique by a particular CO who is now associated with civil school, where it is also enforced. Except for grumpy old mongrels like me who still thumbed the buttons.

[Old Age Pilot]

Not for a Bendix

Quite right, AC

I think the OP's initial message referred to the issue of having to modulate throttle in the event of a hot start, or something to that effect, which refers to the CECO system. Of course, the Bendix is an entirely different beast all together.

[lelebebbel]

The company I work for has a 206 start simulator. It's a USB-collective with the twist grip and buttons that hooks up to a computer. The instrument panel is simulated on screen with the same layout as in the actual machine.

The software can be set to simulate different ambient conditions, battery states, as well as force hot starts, hung starts etc.

I do some of the annual recurrent training as well as initial training for people getting endorsed on type. Everyone, regardless of experience (pilots ranging from 900 to over 20,000hrs), gets to do at least ~20 simulated starts, including hot starts etc.

Most of our pilots prefer the thumb-start:

RH thumb on starter
LH thumb on idle release

but some (not all) of the old timers do the middle finger - index finger thing as some have explained in here.

Now I am not going to try to change the habit of someone who has been starting 206s for 35 years, but I will say one thing for sure: When I set the thing to simulate a fast TOT runaway, I see A LOT more slipped fingers and resulting (simulated) hot starts with people that use the index finger method than with those using the thumb method.

Clamping the starter button with your right hand thumb simply puts it in a more secure hold than pushing down on it with your middle finger, especially when you then have to try to hit the idle release with a different finger of the same hand. Therefore reducing the risk of accidentally letting go or slipping off. For me personally, it is easier to clamp the right thumb down and then simply forget about that hand completely until the start is finished.

From what I can see out of a sample size of about 25 pilots, very clearly the reaction time and error rate is noticeably lower with the people that use the RH thumb on the starter. Getting the idle release down and rolling the throttle off with the left hand doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone.

So for anyone new to the 206, we will continue to train them to use their RH thumb on the starter, LH thumb on the Idle Release.

[EMS R22]

Two thumbs for me.:ok::ok:

[laardvark]

re jazzpilots video , is it routine for heli' pilots to start engine without strapping in ? ...

[SuperF]

Yes, helicopter pilots often start without strapping, that's so they can hop out and give their helicopter a final external check after they have started the engine. And that leads to a whole other conversation...

[FH1100 Pilot]

My problem with the video Camp Freddie posted is that the pilot didn't even pretend to use a checklist, and apparently started the engine with the landing light on. His "flow check" missed it entirely, it seems. And that's what happens when you rely on memorized flow checks.

When I was at PHI, I routinely did five starts per day, sometimes more. Since I flew 7500 hours with that company alone (combination of 206 and BO105). I figure I've done well north of 50,000 starts of RR/Allison C20B engines. Yup, whip 'em out, boys! Let's measure ;-)

In the C20B it absolutely doesn't matter how far you open the throttle at lightoff. "Cracked" is the same as "Full." Get it back to the idle stop before 58%. The engine will be "self-sustaining" above 45% or so if it's accelerating smartly. Most pilots are OCD about holding the starter down until 58%. You don't have to; anywhere above 50% is fine and won't hurt it.

Before PHI, in the 206 I always used the right-hand index/middle finger for the idle release and starter, with my left hand dedicated solely to the throttle. Then I went to PHI where they put the starter button on the damn cyclic: Left-hand and thumb for throttle and idle release! After PHI, back again to the old way, which works for me.

There is no single "right" way to start a 206 when it comes to which fingers/hands to use. Just don't screw it up!

In all of my flying, I've never seen a TOT take off so fast that it couldn't be caught. Expect the overtemp, and don't be surprised when it happens. Just be sure to keep both buttons pressed.

Me, I check for oil pressure AND blade turning before lighting it off. That eliminates the often-overlooked requirement to ensure that the MR is turning by 25%.

Now I fly helicopters with piston radial engines, and I think back fondly on how easy turbines were to start by comparison. Aye carumba!

[EN48]

"Not for a Bendix. Throttle is either OFF until ~15%N1, then it is snapped to IDLE"

Well ... not always. I was taught NOT to snap to idle, just to roll open the throttle until light off and then a smidgen more to prevent flame out. This way the idle stop does not engage, allowing a quicker roll off of the throttle if necessary. This guidance from a grizzled 40+ year veteran of Bells and other helicopters. Not strictly according to the book, but has worked flawlessly for me for hundreds of starts. However, this is on a C20W, and may not apply to the B206. Also taught right thumb on START, left hand for throttle and idle stop release. Tried the other method some here advocate and can see why they get into trouble!

[helonorth]

I you're using anything but your thumbs, you're doing it wrong. See first post.

[longbox]

Guys whatever you have always done, if it works for you keep doing it, changing will end in disaster. Both work it's just what you are happy with. I have many thousands of hours on the 206 and I use middle finger and left hand, never had a problem, so pick a away and stick with it, they are pussy cats to start if you abide by the rules.

[krypton_john]

Agree with Longbox... would be risky to change a well established habit.

But I think that anyone learning should use their thumbs. To me, it seems more secure and less likely to slip off at the worst possible moment. You're kind of locked into position.

[helonorth]

If you have 50,000 starts in say 10,000 hours, that would be 5 starts for every hour flown, or one about every 12 minutes. Even if you had two engines to start on the 105, that would mean a start every 24 minutes or so. I don't think that quite "measures up".

[FH1100 Pilot]

You are correct helonorth.

Let me start this over. I post on a phone these days, not a computer anymore and things get muddled. Or I'm getting senile, or stupid, or both.

Aaaaanyway, the correct numbers are...about five starts per day on average. Nine years in the 206 equals about 8200 starts (9 x 182 days x 5 starts per day). Then four years in the twin-engine BO105 equals about 7300 starts (4 x 182 days x 10 starts). So... 8200 + 7300 is around 15,500 starts on a C-20B give or take. Maybe not the number I originally thought (which is closer to the number of landings on offshore platforms), but 15,000 starts...hey, still a bunch.

[longbox]

I love starting a 206, I have been flying the 429 today all FADEC and really cool, but there is a great feeling lighting up a 250, simple rules

Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button

If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure

I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it

[John Eacott]

I love starting a 206, I have been flying the 429 today all FADEC and really cool, but there is a great feeling lighting up a 250, simple rules

Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button

If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure

I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it

I've highlighted a contentious statement there: Allison issued a letter back in 1992 which specifically states

Allison defines a good first start as one taking less than 25 seconds from the introduction of fuel until the engine reaches ground idle. To obtain an optimized start, move the throttle to the ground idle position to begin fuel flow as the Nl RPM accelerates through 12-15% Nl. Do not wait for Nl RPM to peak out before initiating fuel flow, as this will unnecessarily utilize battery capacity early in the start cycle.

Engines vary: one of my 206s spun up quickly, such that cracking the throttle open at 12% would see >15% by the time the fuel lit off. Another would be best opened at 15%.

But never, never hang on past 15% :=

[chopjock]

But never, never hang on past 15%

Even if the engine was only just shut down a couple of minutes prior and needs a bit of cooling air flow first ?

[krypton_john]

Yep. You can start motoring with TOT above 150 as long as you don't add fuel. By the time you get to 15% the TOT will usually be below 150.

[Gomer Pylot]

And if it's not cool enough, release the starter switch, let it coast down, and if necessary hit it again. I've never needed to use more than two cycles. If I need to cool it down, I press the starter and motor it to maybe 10%, quit, and the second time it's always below 150 before reaching 15%. You don't want to use any more battery power than necessary.

[FLY 7]

If you just press the starter for a few seconds to cool down the TOT, does it record a start cycle?

[albatross]

3 pages on starting the engine!
Good grief.

[Gomer Pylot]

Motoring the engine with no fuel introduced does not constitute a cycle. I've never flown a 206 that recorded cycles, it has always been done by the pilot keeping track.