Quick Thinking Red Devil!

[charliegolf]

Red Devils in Whitehaven Airshow mid-air parachute drama - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-33209713)

Reports of a partial opening being caught mid-air by a pal. Both went into the water, both ok.

CG

[Tankertrashnav]

Always thought that anyone who chooses to jump out of a perfectably seviceable aircraft is totally bonkers!

Great result anyway - well done guys :ok:

[NutLoose]

pictures and film



http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-06-20/red-devil-lucky-escape-as-parachute-fails-to-open/

Video: Red Devil saved by team-mate after parachute fails in mid-air drama - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11688167/Red-Devil-saved-by-team-mate-after-parachute-fails-in-mid-air-drama.html)




I wonder if he did the lottery last night?.. with the luck he had

[foxmoth]

Any idea why he did not deploy his reserve?

[charliegolf]

Any idea why he did not deploy his reserve?

My second thought, Fox, after, "Phew, jammy git!"

Too low?

CG

[tonker]

Video at bottom

Red Devil caught mid-air by team-mate after his parachute failed to open - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/red-devil-caught-midair-by-teammate-after-his-parachute-failed-to-open-10333634.html)

[Tashengurt]

Be interesting to see if the chute failed from deployment or collapsed later. I'd guess the second otherwise I would have thought he'd cutaway the main and go for the reserve. All the action does seem to happen low down. (I remember those days!)

[Wander00]

Professional as ever - congratulations, very, very well done

[floppyjock]

Rubbish reporting from someone who has no idea about the sport and never took the trouble to find out what actually happened. :ugh:

[orca]

Any chance you might enlighten those of us who know nothing about the sport but are trying to find out?

[floppyjock]

The guys were taking part in CF (Canopy Formation) where they link canopies together. Sometimes when docking to fast or of centre they can collapse or entangle. Looks like this may have happened to low with not enough time to sort it out and the top guy, who does the steering opted for a water landing. This may be because he was unable to make the arena or looking for a softer landing.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Here's a short video of an initial Canopy Relative Work (CReW) jump. You can see the techniques quite clearly. Note that when fully linked, the bottom guy stops steering.

dg0R_H-sG58

Changing position in Canopy or freefall Relative Work uses exactly the same techniques as formation work in aircraft. Before the jump, there needs to be some means of ensuring the average fall rate of the formation members is very similar. In freefall RW this is done by suit drag. As a big guy, I wear a baggy suit, whilst the women wear skintight lycra (and sometimes have lead weights). With CReW, similar wing loadings and aspect ratios are required for the canopies. After that, the only difference is how you generate the accelerations required in different directions to change position.

[orca]

Thank you chaps. That makes sense. Was rather puzzled!

[Onceapilot]

Good luck to them! However, BBC still reporting "when his chute failed to open during an airshow - but a team-mate caught him in mid-air". Non of the report seems to be official MOD.

OAP

[India Four Two]

whilst the women wear skintight lycra

Please Sir, can I join your club? :E

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Nude Relative Work is done for fun sometimes...

however, as reported by a friend of mine who tried it, never be the 'diver' as a bloke.
Most formations are too big to get out of the aircraft cabin in one go, so some hang on the outside of the aircraft and go first in a high drag position- 'floaters', then after the main body, some go out a bit later and are 'divers' to catch up with the formation. The higher airspeed apparently causes flutter resonance in your wanger, and this hurts A LOT. :uhoh:

[langleybaston]

I wouldn't mind a tad of flutter resonance in the wanger ........... might wake it up!

Ever since the crystal balls were confiscated.

[orca]

Do the guys brief a 'dumping ground' for heavy landings if it's available such as the harbour, or would this have been thought of on the hoof?

[VX275]

Poor reporting and Para Mafia spin. Of course his mate saved him but only after he'd tried to kill him first.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Alternate landing zones are part of the normal brief for civvy skydivers, it's normal to ask who is qualified for water landings (in the US, that's Intermediate and above). I would be gobsmacked if it wasn't standard for the Red Devils. The guy who did my rigging training did rigging for the Golden Knights (US Army jump team), and they certainly recce'd and briefed for every display site.

[MOSTAFA]

Spot on VX.

[Danny42C]

One Saturday, the Red Devils (or some distant forebears) were en route to a display in a Dominie (old style). An engine packs up. Fully loaded Dominie can't maintain height on one. Pilot appeals to pax to do the decent thing: they oblige. Dominie lands safely at Shawbury.

SDO, Shawbury spends rest of afternoon organising transport to collect castaways from low taverns scattered round Shropshire.

(True Story).

[topgas]

BBC News just shown further footage with the moment of the lower chute wrapping round the upper parachutist, and an interview with the participants.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Always thought that anyone who chooses to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft is totally bonkers!

An acquaintance used to fly a jump plane in Arizona, and always mercilessly took the p!ss out of the skydivers for this reason. Passing about 7,000 feet in the climb one day, the engine caught fire and the extinguisher failed to put it out. He turned to find the jumpmaster already with his face right there, with a HUGE grin on it. The jumpmaster just said 'Bye!', and the skydivers all bailed. He, of course, had no 'chute. Fortunately he managed to blow the fire out with a VNE dive and glide back to the airfield.
After that he took up jumping.

[Onceapilot]

So,..parachute did not fail to open?
Who is stitching who, here?

OAP

[4Greens]

The use of the phrase 'lucky' annoys me. It wasn't luck it was great training and execution.

Congrats.

[Vitesse]

Thanks for the posts here.

I listened to the news anchors and eye witnesses this morning and thought their versions of what happened may not be entirely informed.

Glad the chaps involved are okay.

[Onceapilot]

Quite so Vitesse. But where is the top cover to support these guys?

OAP

[Courtney Mil]

So, it looks like a mid-air, not a rescue. We still jump to conclusions before we have the full story.

[diginagain]

But where is the top cover to support these guys?Perhaps someone will be parachuted-in?

[strake]

As someone who has had the privilege of spending a couple of weeks jumping with The Fred's as a civilian instructor, (waayyy back in the day), from what I have seen, this was an 'into-water demo jump' finishing with some simple canopy relative or CReW work. Most CReW work breaks off at a minimum of 2000ft to allow for the eventuality that occurred here - it's called a 'Wrap' - where a canopy collapses or wraps around another jumper or his kit. Above 2000ft, it is possible to 'cutaway' and deploy a reserve. Note 'cutaway' in this sense means pulling a cutaway pad (not flailing around with blades and knives) which releases the main parachute and risers as, unlike the older round parachutes, ram-air main and reserve canopies cannot fly together.
Along with some other demo teams, The Red Devil's are cleared to land a CReW formation - breaking off at the last moment. The problem with this - as shown in this incident - is that should there be a wrap, the jumpers will be too low to cutaway and deploy reserves. In this event, the top man used his parachute and the partially inflated parachute of the base man to continue to steer to the water - which is exactly where the demo was supposed to end. Good training and quick thinking - as always.

[Exascot]

CM I agree but good recovery.

I am not qualifed to comment further. I was only responsible for putting these guys in the right place.

[dragartist]

Strake, The show organiser was on the BBC last night claiming the target DZ was 700 meters away from the harbour.


I don't think they would want to put these ZP chutes into the sea for demo purposes.


Does anyone know if the Freds come under the same jurisdiction these days as the Falcons. To my knowledge the Freds were a sports team operating to BPA (British Parachute Association)rules whereas the Falcons is a full time posting governed by the Service rules. MAA?


I am with VX and others. It was pilot error - mid air collision. OK they train for this and got out of jail free on this occasion.


It's great spectacle to watch.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Well, as Exascot can confirm, I am qualified to critique this 'event'

I have the greatest respect for the Red Fred's and, in years gone by, have jumped with many members of the team.

There are some myths that need laying to rest here. It was a low show due to cloud cover, but within laid down limits.

It was an intentional water descent, with the primary DZ being in one of the Whitehaven harbours. The remainder of the team all landed in the water, just not the same water. Water jumps need a lot of planning to complete safely and from what I can see all relevant safety procedures were in place.

The Red Freds excel in demonstration Canopy Relative Work (CRW) and have been innovators in this discipline for many years. Now, as with all things aviation related, altitude is your friend. It appears in this case that CRW was initiated below 2,500ft. In my day this was strictly verboten, at that height if you have a problem you have no time to correct the situation. As a team leader, if we were intending a CRW display, that would be my absolute minimum for CRW initiation. The normal corrective action (with height available) the guy on top who is wrapped up in the canopy will attempt to free said canopy and, whilst communicating to the guy below, when free drop the guy below. The canopy will then re inflate, normally within a hundred feet or so. If it doesn't inflate the dropped guy would then cutaway his failing main canopy and deploy his reserve. If the guy above cannot free the canopy wrapped around him he will tell the guy below to cutaway and deploy his reserve. This then leaves the guy above with his own canopy flying but still wrapped in a canopy that is now not under tension. Again in most cases you can now untangle yourself and throw the wrapped canopy away and continue to the DZ. In exceptional circumstances the wrap canopy can begin to re inflate around your own lines and at this point becomes entirely unpredictable. Again with sufficient height you would cutaway the two wrapped main canopies and deploy your reserve.

With CRW this is a situation that is trained for rigorously and in this case only became noteworthy due to the lack of altitude.

The question I would be asking is: Who authorised CRW initiation below 2,500ft.

This is the crux of the matter and I would expect that whoever it was will be having a hats on, no coffee with OC Red Devils on Monday morning. :=

Regardless, for those not familiar, it has been publicity for the team, no one was injured, more importantly no spectators were injured. The number one rule for any display is "Do NOT bend the crowd" :ok:

Please note that at no time did I use the words "plunging, plummeting, hurtling or death defying" but then I'm not a qualified journalist. :ugh:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Given the water landing, i think use of the word "plunge" could be authorised.:*

[Top Bunk Tester]

Fair call PP :E

[Exascot]

TBT, my old friend, I wondered when you would stick your head over the parapet on this one and give your highly experienced and proffesional views. Thank you :ok:

I have dropped TBT many times - nutters the lot of them ;)

[dragartist]

Good explanation TBT.


I still don't see the logic of an intentional immersion into the sea with what we know about the impact on the coated fabrics and lines.

[Hempy]

nutters the lot of them

You've got that bit right! I've done (a mandatory) 3, that was well and truly enough!

[Top Bunk Tester]

DA
Yeah I hated taking my own kit into water, but if it's team kit and that's what the organiser wants, then so be it. Also some display DZs only offer a water entry. Kit is normally OK if fully rinsed in fresh water post jump and fully dried inside (not in the sun). AADs (Reserve Automatic Activation Devices) used to have to be removed prior to a water descent, although these days they are sealed units so can be immersed. You may find that the Red Devils have kit set aside for water descents only.

[Onceapilot]

Thanks TBT, I expect your thoughts are pretty much the true picture. A bit of an own goal though if mistakes were made.:uhoh:
Overall, it still surprises me, in these days of instant reporting and broadcasting, that the MOD does not seem to have suitable means to provide a rapid journalistic response to incidents at weekends and so, leaves the wider public to speculate wildly when incidents involving the Armed Forces occur. With the wide range of Service participation in public events there is the need for much faster information release to the public. There is no requirement for an "instant BoI", just some fast, informed, press release (probably based on quick communication by MOD with the Service unit/person responsible for the event).
At present, to the general public, the Services often seem to be unaware of what is going on and the journo's are left to make it up.:ouch:

OAP

[Top Bunk Tester]

OAP

Couldn't agree more. But if you look on the RedDevils own FB page they have attempted to put the record straight and scored yet another own goal. Instead of saying something along the lines of "making a controlled docking onto the canopy above" or "using skillful canopy control to complete a linkup" they have said " colliding canopies together is a normal thing". Which goes to prove you may already have your wish and they may have a fully qualified tabloid journalist within their ranks. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[dragartist]

OaP,
I doubt for one minute if there will be a BoI. Unlike the Falcons the Red Freds operate outside of the Military Regulations (or they used to anyway). The kit they use was not supported in the same way as Military parachute kit. They never had to go through the same rigorous Introduction to Service protocols backed up by extensive trials reports. I am not sure if TBT would have been around at the time we were struggling with smoke canister leg brackets or flags for the Falcs. it became a bit of a laughing stock as to why we could not just use the same kit that the Freds were using. I think the Navy also had a team. If I remember correctly the flag they had was bigger than the chute with a big bog off lead fishing weight that must have weighed a stone. I think the one that was approved for use with the Falcs was as big as a handkerchief in comparison.